Divorcing an abusive, high-conflict, pathologically entitled woman (i.e., Crazy) can be a brutal experience. This type of personality will use any means necessary to “win,” including false allegations of domestic violence and sexual violence, restraining order abuse, smear campaigns, delay tactics to drive up legal costs and to avoid consequences for their own malfeasance, parental alienation, child abuse, financial fraud, and a host of other predations.
Make no mistake; you’re at war with an individual who wants to destroy you emotionally, psychologically, financially, socially, professionally and physically. She most likely wants total control over the children and may even wish to see you imprisoned. Many men have a difficult time accepting this and resist using maximalist legal means to neutralize the threat their exes pose to them and their children.
But she’s the mother of my children.
She’ll get angry with me if I expose her or hold her accountable.
I want to keep things as amicable as possible.
But I’m a nice guy.
The judge will be fair.
But she’s the mother of my children. What kind of mother tries to destroy the children’s father? What kind of mother depicts the children’s father as a violent monster for a larger child or spousal support check or just out of pure malice? What kind of mother teaches the children to hate and fear their father because she either doesn’t value the importance of having a loving, involved father and/or is so insecure that she believes the children loving and having a relationship with their father means the kids love her less? Birthing children does not automatically bestow virtue. This kind of mother eats her young. You need to get over the sentimental veneration of “motherhood.”
She’ll get angry with me if I expose her or hold her accountable. And that would be different from what you experienced in your marriage how? Crazy uses her anger as a control mechanism. You’re afraid of taking care of yourself and your children. You’re afraid of looking after your best interests and the children’s interests. This is what Crazy wants because it makes you an easier target. She’s going to be angry no matter what you do because that is her nature, so you may as well do what’s good for you.
I want to keep things as amicable as possible. Not possible if you are dealing with Crazy. Treating this kind of individual kindly and generously usually just makes them greedier and crueler. They view kindness as a weakness to be exploited.
But I’m a nice guy. Being a nice guy is not synonymous with being a doormat. When divorcing Crazy, it’s time to stop being the nice guy and become the smart guy.
The judge will be fair. If you’re a man who believes this, we have some land to sell you in Florida. If you’re a man in family court, you begin with a severe handicap and you will need to figure out how to minimize it.
If you’re divorcing an abusive, entitled, high-conflict and/or personality disordered woman and have any of the above mindsets, you are the proverbial lamb to the slaughter. You need to check your chivalry, put away your white steed and white hat, disabuse yourself of any notion of fairness in family court and do what you need to do within the bounds of the law. And that means being willing to expose your ex for the horrible person and parent she is.
These are just some of the topics we’ll be covering on this week’s Going Mental. Our guest, Terrence Popp, will discuss specific divorce strategies he has seen men use and the practice of administrative violence as a way to combat the disadvantage many men face in Family Court.
Popp is the founder of SecondClassCitizen.org, a non-profit promoting equal rights for non-custodial parents and children, and Redonkulas.com, a video site that offers off-color, in-your-face comedy on a range of topics including divorce, the dangers of dating and marrying crazy, feminism, female narcissism and entitlement, and stupid male relationship behaviors.
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Counseling with Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD
Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD helps individuals work through their relationship and codependency issues via telephone or Skype. She specializes in helping men and women trying to break free of an abusive relationship, cope with the stress of an abusive relationship or heal from an abusive relationship. Coaching individuals through high-conflict divorce and custody cases is also an area of expertise. She combines practical advice, emotional support and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Schedule a Session page for more information.
Want to Say Goodbye to Crazy? Buy it HERE.
I haven’t looked at the site for a while but today, after a very harrowing weekend caused by the EX, I had to be reassured that I am not the only guy out there who has been ripped off repeatedly. The article above hits all the nails on the head in my case, which was started by my ex 10 years ago. The latest in her campaign against me is called “New Ways to Rip Him Off.” It started last summer when after deciding to be in a production of Annie together here where I live, purchasing airplane tickets for them to fly from Florida to Vermont and making plans with my parents to accompany them, the EX and her WICKED parents, decided to drive the kids up without consulting me until last minute. Money wasted was over $400.00. We also totaled the car (because of driving on a road that was improperly paved-another story, I know it’s not really relevant) and were accused of injuring the children permanently because of it. No injuries and we were very lucky to walk away. Back to story. She never apologized for that and thought it was her god given right to do what she thought was emotionally right for her children and getting on the plane with my parents was just too much to bear, etc etc.
A few days before my daughter was to arrive I had a very weird call from the ex’s parents accusing me of preventing my son from communicating with them. He has an i-phone (from mom-so she can be with him at all times while he is here) so he could call when he wished. We never mentioned his grandparents at all. They they accused me of not letting him see his mother at the airport for more than 10 minutes and that this was unfair because, well they live with her all year long. So unfair and unnecessary. I told them to never call here again and threatened them that I would be blocking their calls. None of their business. Did I mention that when EX left me, she moved in with them and they bought her a house?
This year, my son flew up with my parents no problem. He wants to be here with me and loves it when he is here. My daughter decided that she wanted to go to a camp and didn’t want to come here until a month later. No problem, she is a teen, no big deal until the day came and her mother did not get her to the airport on time. My EX actually could not find the airport and wanted me to believe that she was trying to save $6.00 in parking fees. Then she actually said that I could hold $75.00 of child support back to help cover this which was somehow my fault. I bought the tickets in April so there was plenty of time to find an airport which she has been to before.
As a result of this, I lost a precious day with my daughter, had to drive for 2 hours one way and cancel my fun camping trip. This hurt my son and my current wife because they were looking forward to it and it had been planned for over a year. Unfortunately, my current wife lost it verbally with my ex on the phone. I do not and cannot get livid anymore and it is affecting my current martial status. My ex wife also said that she did not have a credit card that she could use to get tickets so I had to fork mine over. What person doesn’t have a credit card with them when going to the airport which is over 50 miles from her home? I was screwed. If I didn’t fork over the money, then I would not have seen my daughter at all.
She won’t take responsibility for her error. She cannot see that she has made any. She has changed her reasons from the saving of $6.00 to the emotional needs of my daughter and then back to saying that she just couldn’t talk to anyone at the airport. It was/is a nightmare.
She keeps bringing up the divorce agreement, which has been violated over and over because I only see my kids for a month or so in the summer.
I can’t move closer to her. I have a job here in Vermont. I am broken by this witch. There is nothing I can do. I am not made of money and no lawyer wants to deal with an out of state case. I have to live with this until the rest of my days.
I look forward to my children growing up but am saddened that they have had such a shitty childhood. I am so weak to do anything. I do not want to lose my current wife. But there is nothing that I can do but always be at the end of my rope. I have lost this battle and must resign until my kids are old enough (they are 12 and 14).
@Randy: Welcome to the club. The fastest growing club in America. If I could charge a penny for every member of our club, I’d be a millionaire. You’re not alone friend. Vent. Let it out. Share your horror (and whore) stories. Our ex-Hitlers have gotten away with a lot of awful behavior and fucking up everyones lives. Especially painful when kids are involved. I encourage you to read through the other posts & articles on this website, and also go over to Paul Elam’s ‘A Voice for Men’ website. Good stuff.
It sounds like the typical high-conflict crazy lady reindeer games. I’m sorry you and your children are suffering for it. I would say let her rack up contempt offense and take her back to court and ask the judge to order her to pay your legal fees. It is difficult to run a case out of state, but not impossible. Do you know what the family court system is like in her state of residence? Meaning will the judge take her violations of the court orders seriously?
@Randy, you sound a lot like my father did when I was a teenager. My mom terrorized him in all sorts of ways. Our favorite horror story was when my mom stole the car he bought for my older sister! She was “spitting” and he was always evil, so she had no reason to treat him with any respect.
I saw this as a child and didn’t really understand it. I knew my mom was full of shit, but I didn’t understand what was happening in her mind. The bright side is whole experience made me a lot CLOSER with my dad! And now I’m 35 years old and I married and divorced a woman very similar to my mom. I hope I’ve broken the chain. Seeing my father go through the nightmare of a BPD wife was enough to make me head for the hills when my wife presented herself for who she really was. Hopefully, your kids will be able to break the chain too. 🙂
And the drama continues. Now it is time for the children to go back to their mother. My son does not want to go back but there is nothing I can do to keep him here. My daughter only came for three weeks this year, and has been on her cell phone constantly with her mother. So we really didn’t get a visit in. My ex is trying to tell my son that she will buy tickets for him to visit me in October over a weekend. This is un real and is a lie. She will never buy a ticket for him because he can’t fly alone yet and I don’t have time off of my job etc. etc. But it’s always her, in all stories, she is right, she knows best and it’s my fault that he wants to stay with me. Oh how I hate that bitch.
Thank you for letting me vent. I suppose it will be like this forever. I’m surprised that my current wife can put up with it anymore. She has already told me that she cannot be near the ex this year and at the airport, will walk the other direction because she can’t stand it and would maybe explode. It is very hard on new spouses. They become victims also. And how my ex just loves to tell us that we are picking on her, poor her, she is all alone in life…etc.etc.etc.
Although I live in Germany, I find this website extremely interesting. I am currently in court with a medical docter, 35 years old, I am 42 … she filed a court case for stalking … only, I never did stalk her and I never broke a stalking law. What I experienced with this woman was nothing but madness … one year together, 6 times on and off … everytime I (or her) broke up, she returned a few days later, only to tell me, that we should not just through it away…we should try again…and it started all over. I could write a novel, but will refrain from doing so, as I am almost over it. There was a court hearing in April, to which I wanted to go withough a lawyer, because looking at the facts and at the law, I was absolutely sure, that I did nothing and there was nothing that could happen to me. Well, I was wrong again. The stalking law in Germany states that “if you hurt someone (physically, pschologically or their freedom), or threaten to hurt them, you can be punished. I neither hurt her, nor threatend to do so. The thirs point is, if you enter their private space…which I also never did. The fourth and last point in the law is, if you harass someone, against their communicated will (speak, they have to tell you, or write, leave me alone, I don´t want ony more contact), they can also punish you…BUT, all I did was send her some (well, quite a few actually) mails and sms on personality disorders, other then that, nothing and she never (!), neither in written or verbal form, told me to stop and let her alone. She just disappeared and never replied again, from one day to another, that is the truth, although we planned to find an apartment together and had planned a weekend trip. Well, this is why I was relaxed going into the hearing (to which I took a lawyer after all)….and she surprised me yet again, as she boldy lied and told the (female) judge, that she told me, on the phone, on the 20th or 21st (she said she could not remember, but it was one of the two days) of August last year (!), that she wanted to be left alone and have no more contact. I was quite shocked, as a week after her “phantom call”, she called me and told me about her sick sister and about having talked to a real estate agent about an apartment. Now the judge believed her and instucted me to pay her lawyer and the court fees (and my lawyers fees, ofcourse) … not one month again we (my lawyer and me) offically compained and send a note to the court, which has now been taken to a higher court.. The higher court has now instruced her to comment our complaint within 4 weeks (so 3 left to go) and I am now very very curious to hear what she says, because I have 5 witnesses (a female medical docter (good friend), my father, two friends and a befriended professor) and they all contradict her story that she called me and told me to leave her alone..which, as mentioned, she never did)….until the 6th of August she has to reply, I can not wait tohear what she has to say, but know, anything can happen, she can capitulate, or she can come up with another blunt lie, which would not surprise me…
My ex got the house. My ex got the cars. My ex got the bank accounts. She maxed out our credit cards and fobbed them off on me in the settlement. It’s ten years later and I run into people who know her that tell me that all she can talk about is how I screwed her in the divorce.
You must have got the coins in the sofa cushions then (joking). Oftentimes, people like this are like the little old woman with a ham under each arm complaining she’s got nothing to eat. No matter what, they’ve got to see themselves as the victim. It’s pathetic, actually. You’re well rid of her, Doug.
you guys aren’t alone. I am professionally successful going through a conflict divorce with a woman who spent our marriage ignoring me in favor of friends and social groups. Total sociopath and narcissist. I worked all day while she sat at home writing 10000 plus pages of Porn with Harry Potter characters having graphic sex and including other characters named after our two daughters and her cousins all mixed in. Once my girls were old enough to recognize me, I left. She has since made all efforts to ruin me financially and professionally all with false affadavits accusing me of violence when I never raised my voice to her in 8 years of marriage. The judge reluctantly gave me 50% custody after an expensive trial yet lectured me in open court for calling my wife a gold digger and sociopath in court. What’s left of my money goes to lawyers and to her but I will fight until I am broke rather then just roll over and give half. If I had written porn like she did I’d be getting supervised visits of kids. I also found her recording devices trying to provoke me into violence. I will never marry again and despite all my friends being turned against me because iv walked out on my family, I am better off even penniless while my ex house wife who still wont work lives off my business every month without her having to risk a penny of overhead. I’m going Galt soon.
GB, do you get to see your kids? Has she managed to PAS them?
yes Dr t. I went to court and got 50/50 custody. first time judge had given 50/50 to a man with a stay at home ex. wife is now building a case against me to get them back by saying I don’t do things like I should yet she continues with her attempts at pas. I am lucky in a sense that I have the financial means to fight her but I never thought my hard work and savings would be spent on fighting a porn addicted sociopath just to get equal access to my kids. thanks for all you do. What helps healing is the feeling you are not alone.
For those of you 40+, may remember this old song by Gordon Lightfoot. Came across it today while listening to stuff on YouTube. At the time, I didn’t know what this song was really about…just knew it wasn’t a happy song per se. Oh how the words ring true for many of us. Poetry.
I can see her lyin’ back in her satin dress
In a room where you do what you don’t confess.
Sundown, you better take care
If I find you bin creepin’ round my back stairs.
Sundown, you better take care
If I find you bin creepin’ round my back stairs.
She’s bin lookin’ like a queen in a sailor’s dream
And she don’t always say what she really means.
Sometimes I think it’s a shame
When I get feelin’ better when I’m feelin’ no pain.
Sometimes I think it’s a shame
When I get feelin’ better when I’m feelin’ no pain.
“I can picture ev’ry move that a man could make;
Gettin’ lost in her lovin’ is your first mistake.
Sundown, you better take care
If I find you bin creepin’ round my back stairs.
Sometimes I think it’s a sin
When I feel like I’m winnin’ when I’m losin’ again.
I can see her lookin’ fast in her faded jeans;
She’s a hard lovin’ woman, got me feelin’ mean.
Sometimes I think it’s a shame
When I get feelin’ better when I’m feelin’ no pain.
Sundown, you better take care
If I find you bin creepin’ round my back stairs.
Sundown you better take care
If I find you bin creepin’ round my back stairs.
Sometimes I think it’s a sin
When I feel like I’m winnin’ when I’m losin’ again. “
Cuatezon! Thanks for that tune. I am very aware that song and Gordon actually played locally- which I missed because the ex had missed the plane and caused my plans to be screwed up. Yet, here’s the latest, she is trying to charge me with her lost day at work and the gas it took for her to drive back and forth to the airport (remember, she missed getting my daughter to the plane-now I think on purpose) and for food that they ate. Do they ever stop? She is on the cell phone with my daughter constantly, I think it is because she wants to have a screwed up daughter, one who hates men and me. Yes, I have read all of this site. Thanks for the support.
Randy, I have been divorced for ten years now and it seems that as I am retrospectively connecting the dots of how she worked me over, This incident is proof of That which is evidence of the other thing and it’s way too much to wrap your head around in the beginning.
I’m in it over 10 years and am kicking myself for not realizing the depth of her problems before we had kids. I mean, she wanted to go to England to take care of her ailing grandmother right after we were married, which sounded romantic and great. When we got there, she refused to have sex because her grandmother was in the other room. This was for a year. I kept telling myself things would get better and that I could cure her. Obviously, I have learned a very hard lesson.
Don’t drive yourself crazy, but as time goes by the smokescreen will settle and you will be left with a crystal clear image of what a sucker you/we all are/were. It’s just the way it shakes out. We’ll be around here for you as it all comes into focus.
My ex still never misses a chance to drag me back into the fray, My mother is about as crazy as she was and they ended up banding together against my sister and I. My mother left her whole estate to my ex. Proceeds from a farm that we all worked on all our lives. Not just her assets but picture albums and the empty graves in the family plot. My mother was dead for four months before my ex told me and my sister………….We had been estranged from our mother for quite a while. We found out she had died because they have to notify you when the will is presented for probate. The funeral home wouldn’t even give us a death certificate for my mother without my exe’s permission. I could have purchased one from the county but when I hit that brick wall I quit pursuing things for fear of snapping and ending up on a true crime channel. Remember if you think about my story…… and this is what keeps me sane about it. My ex didn’t steal all that from the family. She didn’t have to. My mean and crazy mother was too busy giving it to her for her to have to steal it.
Doug, It never ends does it? The best we can do is show our children what we are talking about and hope it doesn’t happen to them. It’s in focus, and very clear, so I will avoid it as much as possible. The kids know they can call me, but she takes the phones away from them. This is a great place to share, when I feel down, I know some other bloke is out there and able to understand what I mean. Thank you.
No it doesn’t! But in a way in makes it easier to walk away. Those two deserved each other and as much as personality disordered people like to have an untarnished reputation, I can’t imagine that anybody that knows the story will see my ex for anything but the money grubbing bitch that she is. The only saving grace is that I got the snip and we have no children together. Knowing how her and my mother turned against me and my sister……..if my wife had used my kids as shamelessly as she used my mother..I would have ended up in the news. (BTW I thought me and my mother got along fairly well) I had no idea she hated me enough to let my ex get her foot in the door. I was caring for her after she got sick and she kept sniping at me until I ran out like my ass was on fire. Instead of making amends with me she turned to my ex.
So Randy, with Tara’s permission I will tell you to vent away. I am listening! I remarried a pretty nice woman..so there is hope. This wife. …I have developed some pretty significant health issues and this wife has helped mend me back to better health. The ex would have shoved me out of a moving car by now.
Great discussion, Doug and Randy. Sorry the subject is such an unfortunate one. Randy, please vent away! I found this site back in the fall of 2011 when my wife’s tantrums had turned violent. The site’s commenters and Dr. T helped me put my situation in perspective. I didn’t feel so alone. Within a few months I “un-assed” the apartment and went totally no contact with her! I thank God every day that we didn’t have children (and I’m an atheist! lol).
The experience also inspired me to switch careers within the Army — from lawyer to therapist. I see, as one of my primary missions, educating young Soldiers (the vast majority of whom are male) about healthy relationships. My unit’s psychiatrist (a fantastic civilian female) recently gave a unit-wide presentation on Borderline Personality Disorder that set a lot of Soldiers’ “light bulb’s” off. We call it psycho-education in the mental health field. I hope to do that sort of thing at the individual level and unit level as my career progresses. I’ll have been a success if I can help a few young men (and women too) avoid what I (and my father, and probably his father) went through.
Your ex is a vulture and your mother was an abusive asshole. Just wow.
What goes around comes around. No one gets that close to my sociopath mother and comes out unscathed. My mothers estate will become an albatross around her neck.
LT Greenwald, how cool is that? I too switched careers, from successful graphic designer to a teacher with absolutely NO help from the ex. She could only see that I was a failure and still does. The other day another “nice” letter came from her telling me to stop making all the derogatory comments about her and remember when we were “best friends.” She is trying to pull out all the stops. I have figured out that she is needy for attention and the only kind that she can get from me is now negative, so I refuse to say anything. This only makes her madder and madder. I so need to break the chain, but I love my kids and must see them because when they are with me, they can be in a calm environment. My son is terribly upset because he doesn’t want to go home to her. I don’t know what to tell him anymore, there is nothing that I can do. Keep talking to those young men LT. They DO not need to do this to themselves.
She also did not let me paint, listen to music, read or visit museums or historical sites. I did all the cooking and cleaning, nice honeymoon. What an asshole.
Puntaman. Veterans of life with the personality disordered, handle these people by going” No Contact.” I think it is self explanatory. It transcends all jurisdictions, it trumps all therapy, Get as far away from them as you can and stay there. They can’t prosecute you for being somewhere else.
Here it is late late at night and I can’t sleep because the ex has now reported to the State of Florida that I am a deadbeat dad so now I must, instead of sending her the support check (40% of my earnings-for over 10 years now based on prior earnings) to the state of Florida with a $25.00 penalty. Let it be known that I have NEVER missed a child support payment, I have been late one time by 2 days because of the US mail and have given way more than I have to my children whom I only see for 3-6 weeks a summer because she took them out of state on me a long time ago so she could live with her parents. I have had it. My children were here with me when the certified mail came telling me that I must now pay the state of Fl. instead of sending the check directly to her- which I do days in advance with priority mail so there is proof. Even the kids didn’t understand this latest harassment by her. If only I had the money to get a lawyer who would care and help me save these kids from this horrible stupid woman. If anyone out there knows of a lawyer who can work between the states of Vermont and Florida and will help me win, please post. This is the last straw. My son doesn’t want to go back and all the ex says is that the only option I have is to make the transition smoother. And she adds that she has offered to meet with me to discuss this. I am not taking the bait. It is always a disaster and I WILL NOT DO IT. The kids do not need to be exposed to what happens nor to what may happen. Thanks for listening and I am serious. If anyone out there knows a lawyer who works cases between two different states, PLEASE let me know ASAP.
Reading your forum posts, I realise I am not alone.
My ex wife has gone to great lengths to completely block my attempts to get a divorce (now done), property settlement (about to start) and positive relationships with our two daughters. I have been portrayed as a monster who abandoned the family, who doesn’t pay his way, has nothing to do anything for the girls and is an all round evil type.
I have gone out of my way to do as much as I can for my girls and have tried all types of non legal ways to get a property settlement. The girls treat me like a taxi driver and bank teller and my ex wife turns on Academy Award winning performances when I try to push the property settlement issues…this is after four years of separation! I have now started the process and now have to tell my ex wife it is starting – I am dreading that tomorrow but there is no going back. I am in Australia but you will hear the blast from the USA.
Jupiter, I feel your pain. I was $8,000 (eight-thousand dollars) ahead in child support at one time, yet, was libeled & slandered by the ex and anyone she could recruit, that I was a deadbeat dad and abandoned them blah blah blah. Paying 150% child support right now and she’s still blocking me from the kids. You have to try to live your life the best you can and pray for the best, do & fight as much as you can without exhausting yourself.
Cuatezon, I really feel your misery. You are quite right about fighting to survive the next battle without falling in a heap. I have been deluged in abusive texts today after courteously informing my ex wife in advance that property settlement court documents were coming, so there was no surprise. So the abuse continues.
Cuatezon,
Are you court-ordered to pay 150%? If not, why are you paying it? Also, I believe your child is an adult. What’s going on with the court? Or are you volunteering? If so, why?
Dr. T, the abyss runs deeper than you know…about all that I’ll go into on here.
Nothing will stop from finishing this legal process now – nothing to lose apart from my sanity!
Went through it all and still am. For as much as I let the ex get to me. I keep my focus on my kids. Having my 16 year old daughter live with me by her own choice is empowering to say the least. My 18 year old daughter will be finishing up high school next Fall and most likely joining the work force until she figures out either a career path or goes to college. I’m going to see about modifying the support order at that time and flip support so I can help my oldest with some sort of transortation or education. In the manner I want to help her and not how the courts dictate that help. Due to split in custody I’m paying $48 to Crazy now but hope with the switch she’ll be providing my youngest around $120 / week. I have no problem or fear about taking my ex back to court for those payments. Might as well give her something to be really upset about instead of all the made up crap. Hang in there and be there for the kids. At least half of their lives will be stable and they’ll remember it.