Calling all Shrink4Men community members! There is a young man in need of an intervention.
Earlier this morning, a 24-year old man, “Eric,” left the following comment on the original Shrink4Men blog article, What Can I Do to Protect My Unborn Child from my BPD/NPD Ex-Girlfriend:
I find myself in almost the exact same circumstances as the original poster. My “crazy, controlling, clingy” girlfriend made my life miserable for a year. I finally got her out of my apartment, into school and a job (which I paid for/facilitated) and then broke up with her, in January.
She was “utterly devastated” and begged for a second chance. After several months of strict No Contact, I finally gave into her pleading voicemail in a moment of weakness. I called her and agreed to let her visit me “for closure,” which she insisted she needed.
Well, one thing led to another and we ended up having sex, a decision I will rue until the day I die. To make matters even more fun, now there’s a baby on the way.
Meanwhile, I’ve done research, and now I’m almost certain that she has BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I’m no psychologist, but she sounds like a textbook case to me, from what I have read. She’s also been diagnosed with OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder).
Anyway, I’m 24, and don’t know what to do. It doesn’t help that I live and work in a southern state, while she is from New Jersey. She is pressing me to marry her ASAP “for the baby’s sake.” Even though this is the “traditional” option and would save my reputation a bit. All our friends are conservative Catholics who will no doubt consider me the scum of the earth if they know I not only had premarital sex, but refuse to marry the girl when she’s pregnant.
My ex presents herself very well and they have no idea how absolutely chaotic she is. Anyway, even though marriage is the traditional course of action, I can’t help but think it would be incredibly foolish in this case. She’s intolerable now. How much worse will she be when she’s not my girlfriend, but my wife?
I made a horrible choice by not sticking to my guns and ignoring her. Now I’ll be paying for it, but I simply don’t know what I can do. Try to help her while being in a relationship with her? Break up with her? Try to cut her loose and wish her best of luck? Try to get full custody of the child if possible? I know NOTHING about custody/family court/any of that stuff. Oh goodness . . .
After I stopped banging my head on my keyboard in frustration, I posted the following response:
Looks like you got “oopsed.” Any chance she’ll consider putting the baby up for adoption? Silly question, I know, as the baby was most likely deliberately conceived to trap you and give herself a hostage.
Forget about your friends and the church. They are not the ones who will have to live with an unstable and abusive partner. If I were in your shoes, I would be very clear that you have no intention of marrying her and that you do not want to co-parent with her. I would also strongly encourage her to go the adoption route.
Her behavior will most likely only become worse after the child is born and after marriage when she legally has you over a barrel. It will suck to co-parent with her, but it will suck exponentially more to be married to her and later divorce her. Please don’t do it. This website is riddled with stories of men who “did the right thing.”
If you do not want to be a father, tell her. You will be financially obligated to pay CS, but this was not your choice. She stole your choice from you.
Yes, it’s heartbreaking that another child will be born to and raised by another damaged, unstable, abusive woman who is unfit to be a parent, but the reality is that this child is just a drop in the bucket of children born to crazy, unfit mothers. Furthermore, if she decides to play games with custody, unless she is overtly over-the-top crazy, she will most likely be able to snow custody evaluators and judges.
Your best hope is that she will find some poor sucker who she will persuade to adopt the child. If you can make it clear that you want nothing to do with her and that there is no future, she will, naturally, play the victim/martyr, but may move onto another target/source of narcissistic supply. Then she will want to pretend you never existed and make the new guy the baby daddy. At least, this is one very common possible outcome.
A lesson to all men reading this: Beware of Crazy if she wants to get together to “just talk” after breaking up. Especially if she’s ovulating. Don’t have sex for just one last time. Odds are, she’s looking to trap you. And if you do, WEAR A CONDOM.
One last thing, I would insist on a paternity test. Yes, a paternity test. It happens.
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh. Fellas, fellas, fellas, you have got to be more careful with your sperm. It is not merely your genetic material. In the wrong hands (or womb), it can be the seeds of a life of misery, pain and psychological, physical and financial ruin. Monty Python wasn’t just whistling Dixie when they sang Every Sperm is Sacred.
When I was in college, my cousin’s B to the P to the D ex-girlfriend did this to him. He thought he was just having a post-break-up friends with bennies hook-up. Instead, he got a beautiful son, but many years of legal hassles, expense, threats and heartache — and not just for him, but for his parents, siblings and extended family.
I remember the night he told our other cousin (who was in law school at the time) and me about this “unplanned pregnancy.” My other cousin (female) and I looked at him and said in unison, “What are you? Stupid?” quickly followed by a chorus of, “What the hell were you thinking?”
Our cousin remarked on our lack of empathy, which we belatedly offered him. Then we had a discussion about how so many otherwise smart men are so stupid when it comes to crazy, predatory women. Things haven’t changed much since 1996.
Okay, back to Eric.
Eric, if you’re reading this, please try to disentangle yourself from the FOG (fear, guilt, obligation). Your ex violated your trust. Trapping you into fatherhood against your will is a form of abuse called reproductive coercion. You do not owe this woman anything.
Here is my advice based upon the information you provided:
1. As Mellaril, a Shrink4Men Forum mod recommended on your original post, you need to find out if she really is pregnant. She may be lying. Women who are willing to trap a man into fatherhood will have no problem lying about being pregnant. When it becomes obvious that they are not and/or their plan to force you down the aisle doesn’t work, then they will pretend they either miscarried or claim they aborted the baby because you weren’t — I don’t know — excited enough about being violated and trapped into marriage and fatherhood.
2. Once you confirm the pregnancy, have a paternity test done. This may be your kid or it may be some other man’s offspring she harvested to trap and trick you. Don’t think she’d go that low? Wrong. She’s already gone that low by trying to trap you into fatherhood.
3. Decide if you a) are going to marry her, b) not marry her, but exercise your parental rights (that is, if the child is yours) or c) sign away your parental rights and just pay the state requirement for child support. Whatever you ultimately decide, you should speak with an attorney who specializes in this area.
4. Do due diligence about the realities of being married to a chaotic, chronically selfish and immature, abusive woman and the realities of trying to co-parent with the same. Your ex, at the very least, has OCD (I guess the obsessive-compulsiveness doesn’t apply to her birth control practices — e.g., no checking the diaphragm is in 30 times before sex), which is often manageable with medication, and, at the very worst, has Borderline Personality Disorder or BPD traits.
Ask the men on this website who “did the right thing” and married their version of your ex. Ask them what it’s like to co-parent with a person who has these issues. Most of them will tell you marrying this kind of woman is one of the biggest mistakes they ever made. Most will tell you it is practically impossible to co-parent with a person who has these issues — and that’s even while the marriage is intact. Ask them how effective they have been in shielding their children from their mothers’ craziness and abuse. You can buffer some of it, but certainly not all of it.
Then ask the women who frequent Shrink4Men what it’s like to be the wife of a man with a crazy ex who uses the step-kids as a weapon and constantly tries to wreak havoc in their marriage. You do not want to inflict this on the hopefully emotionally healthy, kind and loving woman you choose to marry in the future.
5. Start reading up on setting and enforcing boundaries. If this woman is carrying your child, you will need to become a boundary setter extraordinaire. If she is pregnant, if the child is yours, and if you decide to take an active role, you will also need to research parallel parenting vs. co-parenting, disengagement, detachment and Low Contact vs. No Contact.
6. Brace yourself to be portrayed as the bad guy for not marrying her and not wanting to be coerced into fatherhood. Heck, you will be portrayed as the bad guy even if you do marry her. If your ex really does exhibit the kinds of behaviors and traits described throughout the many Shrink4Men publications, you will be in a no-win situation no matter what you do.
7. Be prepared to lose “friends.” However, any friends who take her side are not your friends. Furthermore, do not keep her secrets anymore. Let your friends know exactly how she treated you and that you strongly suspect she is trying to trap you. Stop protecting her and start protecting yourself. If she is pregnant with your kid, you are going to need to learn how to best protect yourself, so that if the law allows you to do so, maybe you can also protect the child.
8. Be prepared to be chastised by ignorant people in your Church. Unless they have also been in a relationship with someone like your ex, they have no business judging you. Marriage is a man made construct and contract. Marriage as a construct and a contract is less important than the flesh and blood human beings participating in that construct and contract. Your ex has already demonstrated that she has no qualms about operating in bad faith. In my opinion, you would be incredibly foolish to enter into a legally binding contract with her and the State, which is VERY woman-biased.
9. Disabuse yourself of the notion that you can “save” this child from his or her mother. You cannot, especially if she is a high-functioning abuser (i.e., knows how to put on a good show for others). Unless she shoots crack in front of a family court judge while giving him a lap dance, the best you can hope to get is maybe 50/50 custody and that is a BIG maybe. Even if you do, that will not stop her from engaging in parental alienation and playing games with access. By the way, marrying this woman does not guarantee she will not alienate the child from you. Alienation campaigns often begin even while the relationship is still intact.
10. Reach out to everyone who loves you and ask for their support. You will need it.
Have I forgotten anything, Shrink4Men community?
Eric, if you would like to respond to the comments here, please register. I’m sure there are many men and women here who will offer you the wisdom of their experiences.
Shrink4Men Coaching and Consulting Services:
Dr Tara J. Palmatier provides confidential, fee-for-service, consultation/coaching services to help both men and women work through their relationship issues via telephone and/or Skype chat. Her practice combines practical advice, support, reality testing and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Shrink4Men Services page for professional inquiries.
I think it should be noted that, as of right now, he will have support payments. If he marries this woman and then manages to escape (because, really, if you already can’t stand this woman and you marry her for the sole reason that she trapped you, how likely is this marriage to last anyways?), you’ll be paying child support AND alimony, as well as giving up practically all assets earned through the marriage. Cut your losses now, you’re going to nee that money for legal fees, likely hers as much as yours… presuming she actually is pregnant with your child.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
Excellent points, Kratch.
In our current social and legal climate, men are, more often than not, punished/destroyed for “doing the right thing.”
My advice to all men in this situation, don’t do the so-called “right thing;” do the smart thing. Protect yourselves and don’t make yourselves legally vulnerable to this kind of woman.
Tears won’t bankrupt you and land you in jail, but giving into the tears and tantrums and marrying Crazy just might.
Thank you so much for your reply, Dr. Palmatier. I’m Eric, the OP. I’ve registered, so that I can participate in the discussions here.
I do, unfortunately, know for a fact that she’s pregnant. I’ve seen the signed affidavit to the effect from the local nonprofit pregnancy center, as well as the positive test. I also very much suspect that I am, indeed, the father. She could have slept with someone else, but it would have to have been only a few days before she visited me, and I think that’s not likely, given how much she was begging me to take her back, and how one of the most strident reasons she was giving was: “we lost our virginity together, it’ll be so dirty if we sleep with other people! HAVE to marry one another!” I can insist on a paternity test once the baby is born, but given how likely it is that I’m the father, I’ve thought it’d probably be counterproductive, since it’s almost certainly going to upset her to high heaven: (“What, you think I’m some kind of whore?!” “What? You don’t want to be a father?!” etc etc.)
I’ve been thinking about adoption. It’s hands-down, the best solution. In fact, my priest recommended that as well -he also assured me that, under the circumstances, I have no obligation whatsoever to marry the girl. He advised me to do nothing until the baby was born -no big decisions to get married, or leave her. The plan was for her to return to her home state and take advantage of medicaid and her family’s help to get prenatal medical care, including possibly psychiatric assessment/help. Of course, when I told her that my priest didn’t want to marry us ASAP, she flipped out and guilt-tripped me into agreeing that we really ought to marry, and soon. She then got on the phone and called around until she found a priest who said he would marry us. She’s home now (left my apartment yesterday -and it’s like a breath of fresh air -I can finally think a bit more clearly!!) but alas, I think the odds of her seeking psychiatric help are slim to none. Not only does she always think she’s right about everything, but she thinks she’s a medical expert as well -she says mental health professionals are all quacks who would probably hurt rather than help, and that she’ll only consider seeing a naturopath/homeopath who will give her some herbs if she needs them. I have no doubt that those sorts of treatments can be useful for some things, but in her case, she definitely needs more. On a good day, she’ll admit that she has something crosswired or that her brain chemistry’s off, but, as said, refuses to act on it. On a bad day, she praises the way she is, and says it makes her a better/stronger/more capable/more detail oriented person (which anyone else can clearly see is rubbish.)
I will peruse the links in this post tonight and continue to learn all I can, so I know what I’m dealing with. I’m just so thankful that I discovered how truly bad things are *now* rather than continuing to fumble around in the dark and optimistically assume that I was just dealing with pregnancy hormones. (If anything, truthfully, she’s a bit more calm during her pregnancy -but I honestly think that’s just because I’ve been so overwhelmed with it that I’ve been more of a pushover and let her run roughshod over me -which, of course, does make her happy.)
Sounds like you’re about to grow up pretty fast. Insist on the paternity test and talk to an attorney.
Your priest sounds like a pretty decent guy. Listen to his advice about not making any big decisions until the baby is born.
Use the time she’s away to your advantage. Get out in front of her and stay in front of her. Take a look at Dr. T’s Index. Since you know you’ll have to deal with her in the future, the better prepared you are, the more control you’ll retain and it’s going to be about control. If you haven’t already, I suggest you take a look at Dr. T’s blog,
•How to Deal with a Borderline Woman (January 13, 2009)
You need to stay away from this chick. Your decisions when with her seem to be coerced and flawed. You posted “she flipped out and guilt-tripped me into agreeing that we really ought to marry, and soon. She then got on the phone and called around until she found a priest who said he would marry us.”
She GUILT TRIPPED YOU INTO MARRIAGE. You don’t see a huge problem with this? Is that really how you want to start a marriage? Marrying because some harpie wouldn’t let you alone until you agreed AFTER she trapped you into a pregnancy? And she refuses to agree with any of YOUR terms, ie. GET SOME HELP CRAZY? Um no. No, no and no.
Get the DNA test. GET IT. I do not care if you THINK this child is yours because of whatever she’s convinced you of (her chastity, virginity and devotion.) This is the same woman who proceeded to lie to you about birth control and who is now basically holding you hostage until you agree to marry her. GET THE PATERNITY TEST.
Until then, do nothing. Not a thing. Do not buy baby crap, do not join her for birthing classes, do not pretend to be a happily married father. You are nothing until proven otherwise. You dumped this chick for a reason, don’t forget that.
I am happily married to a man who was a sucker in this same fashion. He knocked up a crazy when he was but 21 years old. She stalked him and trapped him into getting her pregnant. (She traveled across the US – Seattle to Boston – to do it!) She coaxed him into giving her a place to stay, into sleeping with her that final life destroying time, and then of course into marrying her. She convinced him not to get a paternity test. He ended up supporting her until he found the cajones to get out and away from her entrapment. After he ended up supporting her dead beat ass for years (of course once she spawned she didn’t ever work.) She destroyed his credit, stole everything he owned and tried to have him arrested for DV in the end.
DON’T. DO. IT. You will live to regret this. How much is now up to you.
Incidentally, the likely-hood of you ever getting custody of this child is pretty low. Whether you marry her or not. So save yourself while you can and do not marry her, go back with her or any of the above. You can’t save a child from its NPD/BPD muuuther. But you can save yourself.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
You can’t save a child from its NPD/BPD muuuther. But you can save yourself.
Sadly, very true.
Agree. And, in doing so, eventually, you may be providing the child with a safe haven to escape to , away from the BPD mom.
My kids can come to my place when dealing with their nuts mom is too much.
I was trapped like this, the “accidental” pregnancy. Shari Schreiber has a nice article on this, as well.
I am really happy my kids are here. But, being married to that psycho almost killed me.
I echo minicoopsmom. My husband and his ex wife knew each other in high school. Several years later, my husband and ex’s first husband were both in the Army and ran into each other on a flight from the United States to Germany, where they were both posted. Ex had a toddler son with her first husband.
Not long after that chance meeting, the ex showed up on my husband’s doorstep in Germany. Same pattern. She claimed she was getting divorced.
The ex talked my husband into letting her live with him, paying her bills, and eventually getting married and raising her son with her first husband as his own. She claimed her ex husband was crazy and abusive and my husband was a much better husband and provider. Like a fool, my husband fell for it.
Later, after they were married a couple of months, her birth control “failed” and they had their first daughter. My husband was having trouble covering all the bills, but loved his little girl. A couple of years later, she had his second daughter. Again, they couldn’t really afford her, but my husband loved his second daughter just as much. The ex eventually talked my husband into leaving his career in the Army and my husband ended up having to work low paying jobs in a couple of factories, because the ex didn’t want to live in an area where there were more jobs. Ex also talked my husband into supporting her sister, who also had a daughter. At one point, he was supporting seven people on a salary of about $30K a year.
After almost ten years together, bankruptcy, joblessness, foreclosure, and many dramatic and embarrassing cluster B episodes, they divorced. She has done her very best to punish my husband for divorcing her. She even tried to turn his family of origin against him. My husband’s formerly loving relationships with his kids have completely disintegrated. Yesterday would have been their 22nd anniversary had they stayed together. My husband noted that they fought on their wedding day and a little voice in his head screamed at him not to go through with it.
The ex has since moved on to her third husband, who basically took over daddy duties (except for the financial part) after she divorced my husband. She has had two more kids, bringing her brood up to five. My husband paid $2550 a month for YEARS for three kids– one of whom wasn’t even legally his. In return for his loyal financial support of his family, he has been disowned. His children don’t even acknowledge them as their father anymore and haven’t spoken to him in almost eight years. The former stepson whom my husband had loved as his own quit speaking to him three years ago when we busted him trying to use my husband for money. I’m at the point now at which I really hope none of those kids will ever contact us.
My husband’s story has a happy ending. We will celebrate 10 years of marriage in November and have plans to travel to Scotland to celebrate in style. But it has been a long, painful, heartbreaking, and financially difficult road to get where we are. Please do what you can to protect yourself. minicoopsmom is right. You can’t save a child from an NPD/BPD mother. If you have a shred of humanity and decency, she will do whatever it takes to exploit that humanity and decency. You will end up with a kid who is basically a weapon to be used against you by whatever means possible. And if you ever find a woman you really want to be with who is loving and kind, she too will suffer.
Cut your losses and please do whatever you can to protect yourself and your future.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
Standing ovation, minicoopsmom.
DTS/Eric, try to detach from your emotions re: this situation and take a clear, cold, hard look at the FACTS. Your gf does not want you to do that — hence the smoke and mirrors.
Don’t buy into her emotional reasoning and critically examine the facts.
“You need to stay away from this chick…”
This is KEY! It sounds like she knows exactly how to muddle your mind and then, while you’re confused or weakened, manipulate you into almost anything. Can you imagine a “life” with that kind of dynamic dominating your interactions with her?
On the other hand, when you are alone and writing about your situation you seem to have a good grasp of what’s going on and what’s at stake.
For whatever reason your sense of your own personal power evaporates when you’re subject to her emotional bullying. Don’t be a slave to her or any woman’s tears. Let her cry…it doesn’t mean a thing.
And acknowledge to yourself that when you’re around her you lose yourself and the power to protect your own interests. It’s nothing to be ashamed of. We all have our kryptonite. But to protect yourself from it you need to acknowledge its power and keep away from it.
You need to lawyer up. You need someone who is detached enough to protect your interests, especially considering the fact that you’re too FOGged up to protect them yourself. You need someone who can say to the other side, among other things, “you’re not getting a thing until we see a paternity test.”
Also, don’t let shame rule you. We all make mistakes, sometimes real big ones. So what. You don’t have to martyr yourself to make amends.
Hang tough and good luck.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
You are welcome. I hate to see a young man throw his life down the toilet. A lot of the men and women here wish they had had someone intervene at their past critical moment. Someone said you are on the edge of a cliff. He’s right. You wouldn’t have reached out if you didn’t want to be talked down off the ledge.
Get the paternity test. Other commenters have already explained why, so I won’t rehash. Just get it.
I agree with your priest re: not marrying her, but I disagree with the don’t break up with her advice. If you don’t want to be with her, end it. Giving her ongoing access to you and your life just gives her more opportunities to keep FOGging you. You need a clear head now, not more of her lies, distortions, guilt and manipulations. Clearly, you’re vulnerable to her machinations, so you must put yourself out of harm’s way.
Do not let her back in your apartment. No more visits. Let her stay in NJ. Homeopathic medicine will not cure what ails her. Many years of intensive psychotherapy may not even help. Gambling on her getting better is not a good bet. You have a better chance of winning the lottery.
Keep reading and keep reaching out for support. Do not be guilted/emotionally blackmailed into doing what you know is not good for you.
As for your ex/gf, let her reap what she has sown. Deliberately getting knocked up “on accident” is a gamble some desperate women take. The man they’re trying to trap may or may not marry them. That’s the risk they take. I just wish the courts would stop rewarding these predators with 18 – 21 year cash payouts.
You are trusting an untrustworthy person. If she will have sex with you to conceive a child to keep you; do you really believe she wouldn’t have sex with someone else? This could be a two way trap. She has sex with two men and now she has two options. She is a preditor!! She is using the FOG treatment on you with amazing skill.
I was married to a BPD. I put up with her abuse for almost nine years and finally I got the nerve to get out. At first she didn’t want a divorce, but she also didn’t want to get help either. Long story short, before the divorce was filed, she got online and found another man. He is a recovering alcoholic and someone she can manipulate and control. She is putting the full court press on him as they are talking marriage after less than two months of dating. She has damaged the relationship with her children and her mother over this. Now I have the advantage of seeing how she played me like a fiddle. I married this wonderful woman who I thought was in love with me, but things started happening soon after we got married. We were married about 10 months when she told me one day that the honeymoon was over. I didn’t know what she was talking about, but I soon found out as the mask was off. She told me over time she didn’t think she ever loved me and talked about negative feelings she had about me when we were dating. I kept saying to myself why would she marry me then?? Now after learning about the BPD’s I understand it clearly and I can also see that she is doing it again to someone else.
Assume she is the biggest liar and deceiptful person you have ever heard of and act accordingly or you WILL pay a price for it.
The list of advice from Dr. T is incredible – I think though the point is you MUST follow ALL this advice to stand any chance of getting through this sane. Meaning no more slip ups. For a 24 year-old guy you’re going to have to grow up fast and really focus on becoming a master of controlling all aspects of your behaviour around this woman.
And just in case it didn’t ring clear with what Kratch was saying. DO NOT MARRY HER.
I’m keeping my fingers crossed that the child isn’t yours.
He should also be very cautious about offering her any kind of aid until he decides what to do. If he supports her now then he is setting up a precedent and it doesn’t even have to be his kid for him to be trapped. I don’t know how the state works where he is but I can see that happening easily where I am.
This. Exactly. Its basically an admission of “guilt.” And a status quo that the courts may force you to continue to pay out the nose for the care even if its not your kid.
Yes! Thank you, ‘an admisson of guilt’ is a great way to phrase this!
All the courts would see is that he was caring for her and by extension the child and make him continue.
Yes…the state has two interests here:
1. the best interest of the child, meaning primarily that someone is paying the bills for its care
2. making sure that the state doesn’t get stuck caring for the child, meaning that someone is paying the bills for its care.
The state does NOT care:
1. whether the person paying the bills wants to, deserves to, or even is able to pay the bills
2. whether the person paying the bills is the father, was tricked into being the father, or is/was married to the mother
Lawyer, lawyer, lawyer.
Cousin Dave says
I agree. Eric, get a lawyer. Do it today. The next time your ex tries to contact you, inform her that she is to have no further contact except through your lawyer. Have him draw up a no-contact order so you can enforce that.
And in the interest of completeness, there is one more option that should have been mentioned under #3, and here I offer it without further comment: D) Leave the country and change your name.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
Great point, Tamiko.
DTS/Eric, I want to strongly encourage you to consult with an attorney in your area who has experience with high-conflict custody cases. Having a full understanding of your rights, responsibilities and what you’re likely to face is information you need to have in order to make the best decision.
YES! Don’t sign or promise a thing until you’ve got a lawyer!
Edit: Don’t sign, promise, or GIVE a thing until you’ve got a lawyer!
minicoopsmom makes another key point. Anything you do know will be seen as a precedent, and judges LOVE precedent.
The facts at this point in time are these: a woman you slept with claims to be pregnant and alleges you’re the father. The only thing you can know for sure is that you slept with her. The other things are meaningless unless legally verified (your lawyer will know how to do this). Her ‘official’ results of the preg. test mean nothing until your lawyer can validate them.
Don’t give her money, don’t become her chauffeur, don’t give her a home, etc. She’s trying to turn you into her personal slave, and the law makes it appallingly easy. One way she can do it is by getting you to “do the right thing” by asking you for a little help here and there. Do those things for a year, and then when you finally get in front of a judge, he/she’ll say, “well, he’s been helping her out so far…he should continue to do so until forever…”
“…anything you do NOW will be seen…”
Closure at last says
Boy of boy oh boy! And it happens at all ages, all positions in life. Friend of mine – one of the most respected European architects; in his 40s, extremely accomplished, very good-looking etc. Offices in 4 countries. And? Was dating an NPD/BPD aggressive British woman lawyer. He’s one of those shy introverted intellectual types and she came on very strong. He broke up with her after 2 years of her abuse. Early this year – he says – Oops – I’m going to be a dad now. I said – let me guess – you were in a lonely moment during New Year, she wanted a drink, drink led to her initiating break-up sex for old time’s sake, told you she was on the pill, you gave in and OOPS! “HOW did you guess??” he asked eyes wide. Because – It’s textbook behavior with these psychos. Textbook. At least he has decided to not marry her, despite pressure from his Italian Catholic parents – and it’s a nice scandal in his community while she plays ‘victim’. But he’s braced up for it, braced up for his reputation and her smear campaigns, but will NOT take the psycho back. Of course, he’s screwed with costs etc. and the kid will no doubt be so cute, it will get hard.
but – geez – don’t marry, please, and follow Dr. T’s instructions to a T. And always, always, always use condoms with any sex/break-up sex with condoms. Actually don’t have sex with psychos – if a condom even breaks mid-coitus and you’re in Sweden you’ll get charged for rape. Look at what happened even to Julien Assange.
Closure at last says
or, if a man still can’t control himself from break-up sex, and it does happen, for goodness’ sake, there’re other apertures for outlets of release that don’t lead to her womb!
Dr Tara Palmatier says
I’m glad your friend is not falling into the trap — aside from the pregnancy trap, of course.
Much strength to your friend.
I’m assuming you’re against abortion, or it’s too late, but if it were me, I would try to convince her to have an abortion… then adoption if she won’t do that.
If Dr. T is right and this pregnancy happened intentionally, to trap you, then you’re going to have a tough time convincing her to do anything other than keep it.
Tough time convincing her to do anything else?
Isn’t the whole point of this to get her claws into him? I think he can convince her to do either of those options. He just has to be willing to be as underhanded as her. I’ve heard of guys telling women ‘This just isn’t the right time for us to take this step’ or ‘I think we need to work on us first’…or even ‘I need to work on ME first to make sure I’m prepared to be a good provider’. After all, a woman that’ll do something this heinous to trap a man is going to be selfish and not actually want the baby I’m sure…the poor thing would just be a tool.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
Excellent point, tallwheel. If the oops was deliberate, she’s not going to give up her hostage/weapon/leverage willingly.
Of course, when her plan to trap you backfires on her (hopefully), then she’s going to be left with a child who she probably resents because her scheme didn’t work. Happens all the time.
Yes! I had a friend that was getting this exact same scenario with an absoulute lunatic woman that he had break up sex with after bumping into her again whilst out one night. He very nearly went the whole hog and married her but saw sense snd guess what…As soon as she saw the plan wasn’t going to work she was gone and so was the baby.
Now that may sound horrible but think about it…What sort of life are going to have with someone that is only doing all this to trap you? let me answer that for you. A HORRIBLE LIFE!
There is no compelling reason for you to get married. The Catholic Church as an institution will not require that you marry. Not getting married IS NOT A SIN IN THE EYES OF THE CHURCH, and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.
If you choose to assert your parental rights, you will want a lawyer. You aren’t going to be able to negotiate those waters alone.
Don’t sweat what your ex GF or your “friends” say about sin and “doing the right thing”. The right thing is to put the child’s interests ahead of the mother’s. SHE wants to have you trapped with her, and the child is simply the tool she intends to trap you with. The child will get zero benefit from you being stuck with a crazy woman in a horrible marriage.
DONT MARRY HER, GET A LAWYER. Those two bits of advice are all need.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
All good advice, joe.
As an adult child of what I describe as an unholy union (just because you get married in a church with the white dress, cake and party, does NOT necessarily mean that God has blessed and sanctified it)….
…my NPD mother admitted that in the early 1960s, she purposely, knowingly trapped my father into marrying her. She has committed continued acts of parental alienation through their 40+ year ‘marriage’ (in legal definition), so that the other kids feel zero respect and two of us four show him open contempt. He’s no angel (who among us is?), but he would NEVER refer to her with vitriolic hateful curse words–things she spews at him (and seems to delight in doing in front of their shared children and grandchildren) daily.
Here’s a quick rundown of the outcome of an oops moment in 1962.
Oldest child – married for 20+ years, 3 kids…on the surface, a good Christian church-centered family. Just underneath, emotionally absent from one another, abusive to their eldest (oops baby).
Kid # 2–Excessive relationship avoidance–focuses on the value of things above people. Hates pets. Lives at home. Has never had a romantic relationship (the ‘tea-totaler’). Openly refers to father with spiteful contempt and as her “slave.” NPD
Kid #3–Moved out and stayed out at age 18. Married to a lovely but emotionally scarred woman. Three kids–on the surface, have the healthiest relationship.Underneath, evidence of rage episodes leading to verbally abusive incidents.
Kid #4–The Doozy (me)…a string of messed up relationships (the ‘alcoholic’), including 2 divorces,one child from each. A ‘lost child’ who has seen numerous counselors, is now on anti-depressants (begrudgingly), and is still, at age 42, working through childhood /upbringing issues that occasionally continue to surface.
Take it from me–signing up for a lifetime with a PD is doing your child/ Future children NO FAVORS. You are setting them up for f-d up relationships for their entire lives, and potentially for continuing the PD ‘legacy’ into who knows how many future generations.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
Thanks, TGI, I hope it is helpful for DTS/Eric to hear about the experience of a child now adult who was raised in similar circumstances.
Thanks for illustrating this so well. There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO BENEFIT FOR THE CHILD if you marry this woman. In fact, not marrying her could only be better for the kid in comparison.
Again, repeat after me, “Not marrying a woman after an unexpected pregnancy is not a sin in the eyes of the church”
Adultery is a sin, sure. Go to confession and say your “Hail Marys”, do whatever your penance is. The Church will tell you that getting married doesn’t “undo” the adultery. It can’t. That’s not what Marriage is, that’s what Confession and Penance is for. What the Church has to say about marrying a woman for whom you have no real love and no respect is that it will put you in the moral jeopardy of desecrating the Sacrament of Marriage. The Church doesn’t take desecration of the Sacraments lightly, and this is what your ex is proposing that you do.
Cousin Dave says
What Dr. T and Joe said… It appears to me (although there doesn’t seem to be much data) that children born to BPD mothers have generally bad outcomes no matter what the father does. It’s a tragedy of the human condition. The only solution seems to be to totally remove the children from the BPD mother at a young age, but the law will never allow that.
If it’s a lost cause, it’s a lost cause. At some point you have to get off the sinking ship and head for the lifeboats.
GTFO (Get The F–k Out). Out of the relationship with her. Do your best to be involved with the child – but always think of yourself first. Best advice I can give after living exactly what you are going through.
Was “get your own therapist” on the list? If so, do that. If not, get your own therapist. ASAP. You needed one yesterday. You need more than your priest.
You need to learn to take a harder look at yourself. Any gotcha-pregnancy is an emergency situation, your comment about your recent “agreement” to marry her makes it even more of an emergency. We can sound a thousand alarms, but you still have to hear them. And most of us can probably tell you, there is a time when none of us could hear the alarms. *That* is where you appear to be.
Therapy is going to help you wake up sooner rather than later.
Make no mistake — you will wake up at some point. The questions is, will you do it before or after you owe her a livelihood and/or begin setting a very, very, very bad example for your child (again, assuming it’s your child).
Oh, about your comment that you’re inclined to forego a paternity test because it would make her upset . . . again, take a more critical look at your own life. If your girlfriend like any of the partners/spouses of the rest of us here, “upset” is probably her default mood. You asking for a paternity test is not going to make her upset — she’s already upset (probably at herself). What you see on a daily basis is her ability to find excuses to express her upset and anger, and wrongfully blame it all on you.
I’ll wager that, after you think back, asking her for paternity test is not going to make her any more upset than she would be if, for example, you buttered her toast the wrong way.
Just demand the paternity test. You can handle her vitriol. You’ve survived it so far, haven’t you?
In conclusion, get a therapist. Go 5 times a week until *you* see and understand that you are standing on the edge of a cliff. Go now. Seriously.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
TI85, these are very good points. Being with some like this is a never-ending no-win situation. Since nothing you do will ever be enough or make her happy, the relationship is a set-up for failure from the get-go.
Therefore, do what is good for you. This woman does NOT have your best interests at heart. If she had the unborn child’s best interest at heart, she wouldn’t have conceived it in the first place. It is never in a child’s best interest to be the product of a forced union. Furthermore, your gf doesn’t have her best interests at heart either.
How pathetic that she is so desperate to be with someone who doesn’t want her/doesn’t love her. She makes herself pathetic by her actions.
Eric my symptathies. My advice would be to GTFO! Try to secure as much custody as you can or be willing to go completely no Contact. I’m the father of a child my wife conceived with another guy. That other guy wanted to be in my son’s life but that relationship didn’t last long into the pregnancy. I love my son and maybe your child will be so lucky. I have a beautiful girl with her and right now my wife is looking and possibly succeeding in becoming pregnant when she knows it is not my wish for her to be pregnant and we have just been through an expensive non-divorce and our marriage is still not healthy. If you marry her this pregnancy is just a starting point. Whether it was intentional or not her new little hostage served its purpose, be strong and listen to the advice here.
Good luck. However you go No contact, minimum contact or marriage you are going to have to have the appropriate strong boundaries in all areas of interaction with her.
I called her priest this morning and gave him my side of the story. He came around within 45 seconds, and agreed that us marrying would be a very bad idea. So, thankfully, that’s canned. She’s none the wiser, yet. He and I agreed that it would be easiest for him to meet us together on Friday as originally planned, and then say “I think you’re not ready to get married yet, let’s call this off” rather than telling her now -in the interests of setting her off as little as possible. Dealing with this girl always seems like juggling a stick of lit dynamite.
I told my best friend about all this, this morning, too. He was supportive and sympathetic, and reassured me that I could call him any time I needed to talk, which is another huge load off my mind.
The biggest difficulty with this girl is that when she’s not acting like a psychotic vampire, when she’s not throwing a temper tantrum, or threatening to leave “for some guy who truly loves her,” or trying to sweet-talk/strong-arm me into doing whatever she wants and thinking whatever she thinks… when she’s not doing all that, she’s very sweet, extremely affectionate, and professes to love me so, so much. Which, of course, constantly causes me to doubt and second-guess myself. This is especially true since she hardly ever admits any wrongdoing, so I’m always sort of implicitly and subconsciously wondering whether I’m just overreacting, or whether I owe it to her to be more patient, sympathetic with her hard circumstances, etc.
I do know that when I’m away from her, I feel sane and happy, and think to myself “She’s a tyrant, she’s crazy, I need to get out.” When I’m with her, or speaking on the phone, it’s like I get sucked into her worldview, and trapped in this gauzy mess of I-love-yous and trying to make her happy. I feel like my good nature gets taken advantage of, because I’m too nice, and I find it almost impossible to hold a grudge against anyone. So, she hurts me or drives me crazy, and almost as soon as it happens, as soon as she is sweet or happy again, I feel obligated to -and do- give her another chance. This cycle, I see now, clearly needs to stop -but it’s one thing to realize that, another thing to make it happen.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
I am relieved to read that your priest is being supportive. Is gf/ex back in NJ or still in your area? I don’t think it’s a good idea to let her back in your home if you have managed to get her out. Can the priest do a conference call meeting with the two of you?
Looks like you are still very vulnerable to the FOG, therefore, I encourage you to minimize contact with her as much as possible.
I am also very glad that your friend is being supportive. This is very important.
You may want to start a journal or some kind of document in which you document all the messed up, crazy, hurtful things she has done to you. Look at it when you’re feeling sentimental. I’m sure she has some good traits, but if the good doesn’t outweigh the bad . . .
She’s back in New Jersey. She was here with me from mid-June until she left Monday morning. I’m in Alabama for the time being, but unfortunately agreed to visit her in New Jersey to speak to this priest, and my plans are already set in stone from that standpoint. Since the priest is now on my side, (I looked up his phone number and called him) and any wedding plans are now, unbeknownst to her, out the window, the trip will probably bring things to a head. She’ll get very upset when Father says “there’s no way I’m marrying you two” and try to get me to agree to let her go “priest-shopping” to yet another, in the hopes that he might marry us. At that point, it will be easy for me to say “the two best ones say no, so we should follow their advice.” From that, I won’t budge -especially now that I know what’s at stake. If she wants to cry and beg, or threaten to leave me, she can be my guest. I’ll be staying with her and her mother (who, incidentally, agrees that her own daughter is a few fries short of a happy meal) and if things get really bad, I’ve got a college friend in Jersey City whom I can always call to let me crash on his couch until it’s time for my flight back. Given the circumstances, I think this is the best plan I can work out. Thoughts?
Yeah, don’t go. You say it’s set in stone, but the only thing set in stone is stuff that’s, you know…actually set in stone.
If you feel you can’t skip the trip then go right to the backup plan and stay with the friend. The only thing more dangerous than hanging out with this woman is hanging out with her and her mother. OK, maybe she gets it…but why set yourself up for possible tag team treatment.
I still detect a lot of “I’ll see what happens” in your post above. You need to decide what YOU want and need and then bend reality to fit that, and not leave yourself open to the possibility of being bent to her will.
You’ve already seen what can happen once you’re in her emotional orbit. She becomes hysterical, squirts a few tears, etc., and the years of conditioning we’ve all had to be chivalrous, understanding, flexible, etc., kicks in and you find yourself pledging to be her savior again, or maybe just to help out a little with this and that.
Read Cardini on how to influence people. His ‘foot in the door’ observation is key…get someone to do something little for you and they find it almost impossible to say no to you when you ask them for something more substantial.
I’m not trying to be harsh…I’ve been there. I used to care what me ex thought of me to the extent that it took YEARS after we split up for me to be able to say ‘no’ to hear about anything. My need to prove to her (and others) that I was a good guy made me her slave.
Start saying ‘no’ and watch your personal power go through the roof. It’s hard…it feels weird at first…and some people will think you’re a bastard–and of course she’ll go mental, for a while…but eventually you’ll condition her not to treat you like a doormat, and others will respect you.
Oops….it’s Cialdini, Robert Cialdini, not Cardini, which is prolly the name of a bad magician.
[QUOTE]I do know that when I’m away from her, I feel sane and happy, and think to myself “She’s a tyrant, she’s crazy, I need to get out.”[/QUOTE]
“She’ll get very upset when Father says “there’s no way I’m marrying you two” and try to get me to agree to let her go “priest-shopping” to yet another, in the hopes that he might marry us. At that point, it will be easy for me to say “the two best ones say no, so we should follow their advice.” From that, I won’t budge -especially now that I know what’s at stake. If she wants to cry and beg, or threaten to leave me, she can be my guest.”
Doesn’t this strike you as odd that you are calculating a plan to pretend to want to marry her, all while putting the heat on this priest because you have no real intention of such? I think you need to step up, reclaim your sanity and your good nature and not stoop to her level. Otherwise, her crazy has officially rubbed off on you. If you think shes not capable of manipulating you any further, re-read what your already doing after thinking she’s personality disordered.
“or threatening to leave “for some guy who truly loves her,” ”
My first thought when I read this was … could this other man who loves you be the real baby daddy?
Anyways. I agree with Dr T, stay at your friends place, not the mothers. And don’t think for a moment things will be easy, alla: ” At that point, it will be easy for me to say “the two best ones say no, so we should follow their advice.” From that, I won’t budge -especially now that I know what’s at stake.”. You’ve already admitted that she’s able to fog you and make you see her worldview, do you really think several days in the same house with someone capable of doing that to you will be easy? You need to isolate yourself from her as much as possible. Stay with your friend.
This right here concerns me..
“we lost our virginity together, it’ll be so dirty if we sleep with other people! HAVE to marry one another!” I can insist on a paternity test once the baby is born, but given how likely it is that I’m the father, I’ve thought it’d probably be counterproductive, since it’s almost certainly going to upset her to high heaven: (“What, you think I’m some kind of whore?!” “What? You don’t want to be a father?!” etc etc.)”
First of all, test results can be falsified. Dr. T posted a facebook post in regards to a website to FAKE such things. Along with FAKE tests. Make her pee on a stick right in front of you. If she refuses, QUESTION the sincerity of her pregnancy until you go to a doctor with her to verify or she complies.
Second, get the paternity test and do not back down.
Unless you want to ride the crazy train for the next 18+ years of your life. And with that you will just join the ranks of other poor men duped into children and a life of misery. The decision is yours. Don’t make the same mistakes for god sakes. Your future wife will thank you for it.
I’ll add my voice to those telling the OP to get out, stay out and to get a paternity test. I’ll go one step further and suggest that her telling you she was a virgin may be a lie.
I’m also skeptical of her embrace of religion. My ex did the same; returning to the religion we had slowly left, and her embrace is completely superficial. I believe my ex used religious devotion as though it then absolved her of her abhorrent behavior.
There’s another variable in the equation: this girl manages to put out such a tempting vibe (she presents herself as sweet, innocent, very feminine, a bit sad/vulnerable, extremely good-looking, yet with a vivacious and pleasant temperament) …she’s literally got suitors lining up. She’s the type of girl who inspires random friends-of-friends to facebook-stalk her and then send her wild and flowery protestations of true love, out of the blue. I feel very bad for these men (I was one of them once, after all) because if I let her go, I feel like I’m effectively sucker-punching whichever one is “luckiest.” Some of them are my own acquaintances, too. One guy yesterday had the sheer desperation to send her a note to the following effect: “I’m guessing by your facebook posts that you’re pregnant. If Eric wusses out and won’t marry you, I will happily do so -only I probably can’t manage it financially before the baby’s due.” I mean, seriously…. what does one do when faced with such insanity? He’s never even MET the girl -let alone gotten to know her enough to see her true colors. (That took me about 2 months.) It’s like he’s standing up on the battlefield with a big target on his chest saying “Shoot me, please?” I can possibly send him an email telling him to cease-and-desist, and warning him for his own good, but if it’s not him, it’ll just be another poor sot. Infatuated men really are stupid. (Again, I was no different.)
Dr Tara Palmatier says
DTS/Eric, there is no shortage of men and women in this world eager to line up for their fair share of abuse. Just like you, the next guy will need to figure it out. Maybe he will; maybe he won’t. Not your problem.
Your acquaintances are ready to swoop in? Seems to me you need some new acquaintances. The one man you specifically mention strikes me as a chivalrous dope. My comment to him would be, “Have at her pal.”
Have a look at this article:
Btw, I agree with JP. There’s no way in hell I’d go to NJ, much less bunk with ex and her mom. Her mother may recognize she has problems, but at the end of the day, she’s going to take her daughter’s side. Plus, I half to imagine her parents will only be too relieved when some poor unsuspecting guy takes her off their hands.
er, your “friend” is inserting himself into your relationship drama, offering to marry her? I generally stay out of my friends’ relationship drama. I sure as hell don’t offer to marry the guys my female friends (I’m straight & female) are having problems with. It’s an inappropriate trampling of boundaries and unless it’s some sort of true and everlasting love and the friends are ok with it, I wouldn’t date a friend’s ex. You should be wondering about you guy friend too.
She’s got all of these dudes corresponding with her on Facebook? Yeah, double what people say on the paternity test.
Women of this sort of personality tend to also be very attractive to men. If that wasn’t the case, they probably wouldn’t get away with their bad behavior for very long. That’s not to say they don’t come in the less attractive variety as well… Those people just have a shorter list of suitors.
As a disclaimer, though, I fully acknowledge there are many reasons why a female or male might have an over-inflated ego, a personality disorder, or immature ways of thinking and interacting in general.
Cousin Dave says
“One guy yesterday had the sheer desperation to send her a note to the following effect: “I’m guessing by your facebook posts that you’re pregnant. If Eric wusses out and won’t marry you, I will happily do so” … He’s never even MET the girl -let alone gotten to know her enough to see her true colors.”
Well, some guys are immature too. But that isn’t your problem. You aren’t getting paid to be his therapist.
You all have been immensely helpful to me, and I can’t thank you enough for sharing your experiences with this. Any tips on finding a good lawyer? I’m still very undecided as to whether it’s best to fight for as much custody as I can get for the sake of the child, (which would mean, most likely, my uprooting myself and moving to Jersey -I don’t like this because it seems like it’s essentially letting her call the shots, for the sake of the child that she wanted and I did not want) or whether I should just cut my losses absolutely, say “Good luck, honey” and resign myself to forking over a good fifth of my monthly earnings in child support. (The girl has no job, and prefers to live off others while bemoaning how hard life is, and pledging to get her health in order “soon” so she can work/go to school/etc. She’s been saying “soon” for the past year though, and it hasn’t happened yet, so I’m not holding my breath.)
Try to make your decsion and get your boundaries up as soon as you can. If you go the support only route, start sooner than later. Get an attorney and tell her to direct any correspondence, etc., to your attorney, if you can afford it. Tell her you don’t even want to talk to her until the baby is born.
My opinion is short of a stray cosmic ray hitting the right synapse or she has an encounter with a burning bush at a toll booth on the Jersey Turnpike, she’s pretty much a lost cause. Don’t let her take you with her.
Sacrifice for a purpose is noble, sacrifice for no purpose is suicide. As of right now, nothing is certain.
As for the mother support for you. When i married my crazy ex, her mother said to me ‘im so happy you are marrying my daughter, so now i dont have to worry about her anymore’. then when my ex literally went insane less than a year after marriage, started drugs/affairs/spending, etc. I reached out to this mother, who i thought I was closed to, that i was worried about her daughter…bc she was doing things that were really disturbing and also very hurtful….her mother said ‘well, im sure whatever she is doing, she is doing it for a good reason.’
ie. ‘it must be something you did’. She went on to say ‘i dont want to know what it is, bc she is my daughter and and i will choose/support her regardless’. even though her daughter was ruining her own life.
another thing to note: APPLES DO NOT FALL FAR FROM TREES. Usually girls like this GET THIS WAY due to a very unhealthy mother (oftentimes). Or a childhood of abuse in some way. But my point is, STAY AWAY FROM BOTH OF THEM. DO NOT STAY WITH THEM. You will get even more muddled/confused/guilty in your thinking when there is a tag team of 2 against one. Trust me, ive been there.
Also, to note, you mention how attractive this girl is. Please know that mine was very attractive too. An also hid it well from most. I think most of these types are…not all, but a lot. As other users have mentioned.
GI Dad says
this girl manages to put out such a tempting vibe (she presents herself as sweet, innocent, very feminine, a bit sad/vulnerable, extremely good-looking, yet with a vivacious and pleasant temperament) — Like Bill Maker says: Crazy sex isn’t the best. What’s so great about 30 minutes of great sex followed by 23 1/2 hours of crying, emotional blackmail and “why don’t you love me’s?” Okay, so not a direct quote, but close enough.
…she’s literally got suitors lining up. She’s the type of girl who inspires random friends-of-friends to facebook-stalk her and then send her wild and flowery protestations of true love, out of the blue. — That “type of girl” is more commonly referred to as a slut…ijs
I feel very bad for these men (I was one of them once, after all) because if I let her go, I feel like I’m effectively sucker-punching whichever one is “luckiest.” —- These women will VERY quickly hook up with someone new….to make YOU feel like crap for leaving them and , more importantly (to them) to show you that “you ain’t that special, see how easily I replaced you?” It’s a 1st degree Hoover…don’t fall for it. And you make it sound like you’re sucker-punching someone in the gut in order to get to the liferaft first…you aren’t. You’re jumping ship, if you wanna tell the guy that’s jumping from the raft to the sinking ship that it’s sinking, fine, but don’t think of yourself as pulling him on board to make room on the raft for yourself.
One guy yesterday had the sheer desperation to send her a note to the following effect: “I’m guessing by your facebook posts that you’re pregnant. If Eric wusses out and won’t marry you, I will happily do so -only I probably can’t manage it financially before the baby’s due.” — How do you know that? Public wall comment? I hope you’re not hacking her FB to see what she’s up to…cuz brother, you don’t wanna know.
I can possibly send him an email telling him to cease-and-desist, and warning him for his own good, but if it’s not him, it’ll just be another poor sot. Infatuated men really are stupid. (Again, I was no different.) — An e-mail? Seriously? Stop protecting her abusive personality from discovery! Post that sh*t on your WALL…”Hey everyone, I’m going through some crazy crap right now with a REALLY crazy ex-gf who claims she’s preggers with my kid. I’ve un-friended her and blocked her and I’m asking you to do the same. If you choose not to. however, then please do not relate anything to do with her to me. K? thnx, bye!”
My god this is exactly the story that I have experienced, only I did marry her. After being abused physically and mentally, being isolated from family and friends I always thought she really did love move more than anything in the world. Until I guy came at my door showing me how great sex they had and of course he was not the only one who she secret adventures with. When I confronted her I let her stay for a day but then she said I think I’m pregnant. Fine got the tests (3 of them) and oops! All positive. I decided to stay with for her for my daughters sake. I married this woman and the marriage well, It only lasted for a week. She hit me again and this time I hit back, and that is so not me but I was so furies.
I was starting the realize that this entire relationship was nothing to her. This feeling was like it was eating myself alive. I would have probably grown to be a full time alcoholic just to cope. Fine got out, went to a shrink, got CBT and EMDR sessions and doing a bit better now. Got an attorney but still have to wait until the custody case. Also can only see my daughter one hour in a week which is sad, I always feel devastated when I see my ex-wife again but still having enjoyed time with my daughter who is now 6 months and love her more than anything. My crazy ex is not washing the child regally, let her sit in marijuana smoke, but they just don’t believe me cause she is such a great actress. And guess what a month after she left the new sucker landed on her planet! Honeymoon should probably be over now. We are just puppets to them, and I find it so sad that I have left her with a hostage and I can’t save her.
PS Sorry for my grammar.
I joined this site just so that I may add my thoughts to these very relevent replies to your issue.
First things first.
If I was a betting man, I’d take the bet that your exgf slept with someone the week before she started love bombing you with her need ‘for closure’.
She slept with this guy, had an accident and now she is 99.9% sure she is pregnant with his child. Now, the thing about this guy is he is everything you are not. He is selfish, doesn’t work, isn’t caring, and won’t provide for her or his child.
That’s where you come in. You’re the sucker. She knows she’ll get nothing from the other guy so she calls you up, love bombs you, and manipulates you into having sex. Now, she can say it’s your kid, and now you’ll be on the hook for 18yrs+
Get a lawyer now.
Get a paternity test.
If she has this child, and you help foot the bills, and then you decide a year later to have a test done and the test comes back negative. Guess what. You are on the hook. The judge will only look at what is in the best interest of this child. Nothing else.
Stop this magical thinking BS. Things will not get better until you grow a pair of you know whats, pull on your big boy pants, and start acting like a man who is about to lose it all.
This is now a business transaction. What are you going to do to protect your best interests and your assets?
Stop being nice. Stop manipulating the preist to do your dirty work.
Grow a pair. Put on your gameface and get very serious about this.
One more thing: I’d suggest getting a paternity test BEFORE your name gets put on a birth certificate. In many [most?] states, out-of-wedlock births require a separate attestation of paternity to be filed, however this would be more straightforward, especially 20 years down the line. I’d guess you’d need to file a restraining order against her AND with the hospital, however an actual lawyer will know the correct procedure.
I´m tagging along at the end and hope that you will take all comments to heart.
My DH was oops´d 23 years ago, and mores oopses followed. Somehow her birthcontrol always failed. Anyway, my husband is a kind and loving man that wanted to do “the right thing”, and she basically ruined his life the next two decades.
By now we´ve spent several years and an insane amount of money in legal fees to get her off our backs. She´s out of things to sue for, but shes pressing the child support as much as possible with the children as shields and weapons.
The woman I hope you are about to go non-contact with will with 110% certainty ruin your life. When and if you divorce her she will try to ruin your spouses life and the life of any kids involved.
If you turn away now you will nip this in the bud and take away her only weapon, but if you fall for her games you better brace yourself because it will only get worse. If you turn away now you have your whole life to look forward to.
Please make the right decision. This is the one most important you will ever make, so make it with YOU in mind.
And do not admit any responsibility neither for her or the unborn before you have a positive paternity test.
You have a long road ahead of you, but it will be much better if you don’t marry her. She trapped you, all you can do now is the best you can for the child. He/she will need one sane parent around. I was in a similar situation, was with a BPD, on and off, went back for one more fling. A month later, she sends me a long email explaining why she was breaking up with me. The next day she calls and tells me to come over, yep, she is pregnant. My first instinct was to run, I didn’t even think about staying with her, said I was going to move out of state. She begged and pleaded to get married, when she realized I wasn’t she had an abortion, after extorting lots of money from me. Said it was $1,000 now or $165,000 later. I stayed with her, more so from guilt, and she tried it again, often times saying she was pregnant again. I had a vasectomy, and she still tried that BS. She move on to the next sucker shortly after she found out. So as painful as the whole abortion thing was, I feel lucky I’m not tied to her for life. Maybe you should be clear you won’t marry her, maybe she will consider other options?
Oh one more thing from the previous post. My BPD ex would always say how terrible her ex husband was, that’s why she screwed her neighbor 3 houses down, didn’t even care if he knew. I got to know her ex pretty well, and he is a good guy, very bright, articulate, and funny. It’s true what they say about BPD’s- they can leave a guy as an empty shell of a man. He is now unemployed, depressed, addicted to prescriptions drugs, and basically homeless. As much damage as she did to me and my life, I have no doubt it could be much worse had I married her and had that child with her. So as bad as you think it might be now, stay away from her, paying child support may be a small price to pay for the destruction she is capable of causing you.
Back from Jersey. You guys were right, of course -it would probably have been easiest if I didn’t go at all. Her mom is getting tired of her drama and criticism and really wants to throw her out. (She always calls her mom and sister whores because they might wear spandex pants, a lower-cut top, etc. Of course, they’re not the ones with an out-of-wedlock pregnancy.) Anyway, this trip she was even more crazy than normal. She’d get angry with her family for no real reason, and when I’d take their side (or not take her side strongly enough for her tastes, or not agree with her that they were terrible, etc.) she would start yelling and screaming and telling me that she wants nothing to do with me, forget marriage, etc. ….then, 20 minutes later, it was all “I love you so much, Eric” again. That said, the whole family is completely dysfunctional.
All hell broke loose when the priest told us he wouldn’t marry us, which she quickly deduced was my doing, given that he spoke to me first. I told them that I would be willing to consider marriage, only after the child is born, and only if she takes her medicine and agrees to commit to psychiatric help if her mental issues do not go away. (When I told her I thought she had BPD, she looked it up and told me not to be ridiculous, and then said that any such diagnosis would be impossible anyway, owing to her chronically low magnesium levels. Her mom and I told her that we want nothing more to do with her unless she commits to taking magnesium supplements, with more treatment if necessary. She agreed, but actions will speak louder than words. Her mother is mortified, for some reason, that I won’t at least civilly marry her daughter “to save the family’s honor.” This makes zero sense to me, however, because she said “if you can’t stand each other, get divorced in a year.” Of course, if the girl has me in a bad spot now, I’d be in an infinitely worse one if I even considered *that* course of action.
When I told her I wanted to follow my original priest’s advice to wait until after the baby was born before making any big decisions, the girl said: “Eric, I will be more sane when I start taking magnesium -and I want nothing to do with you if you are going to be so cold as to not trust me in this and don’t want to be with me *now,* even if I have some problems. I want to be with a guy who will be with me 100%, so don’t come knocking at my door in 6 months when I’m much improved, and expect me to hear your pleas.” This strikes me as a rather acute sort of emotional manipulation, considering it basically gives her carte blanche to act like an irrational child in the here and now, blaming it all on her health, and using the prospect of less drama/access to the child as bait.
Is a year plus a baby sufficient precedent to warrant alimony?
“I want to be with a guy who will be with me 100%”
Doesn’t matter who, so long as he’s under her thumb.
I essentially told her that the ball was in her court and that she needed to get on some medication asap, and that although I love her, this show of good faith, along with improvement, is necessary for us to be together. I think she fears/expects I will dump her, which I may very well do, of course, as bad as it makes me feel. She was crying so hard when they dropped me off at the airport that she actually made herself throw up.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
Magnesium supplements will not cure BPD. That is ridiculous.
Her family sounds nuts. I would not have held out the possibility of marriage as she will be less likely to consider adoption.
Have you consulted with an attorney yet?
This is most likely very accurate and is just a glimpse of your future co-parenting with her and/or, god forbid, if you marry her:
This strikes me as a rather acute sort of emotional manipulation, considering it basically gives her carte blanche to act like an irrational child in the here and now, blaming it all on her health, and using the prospect of less drama/access to the child as bait.
Just say, “I don’t.”
Swan Song says
“Magnesium supplements will not cure BPD.”
I dunno, if you gave her about twenty pounds of magnesium supplements all at once, the BPD might be “cured”.
LOL. Swan you gave me a well needed laugh.
People with emotional issues seem to throw up a lot. I’ve seen it with two women myself, and heard it anecdotally from others like you. Seems to be a pattern to me. In both the women I knew, they were then able to use the vomiting to say, “I’m sick. Take pity on me. I have a physical problem.” The hell they do! It’s purely psychological. In one of the cases, even her doctor told her it was psychological, but she wouldn’t believe him. Oh – another time she used the vomiting to tell me she might be pregnant. Give me a break.
Cousin Dave says
“People with emotional issues seem to throw up a lot.”
That’s because they practice it. There are ways you can make yourself throw up. Bulemics do it all the time.
I am late to the game, but I’ve read this entire thread and want to share with you a possible outcome, Eric:
I come from a loving family and had the good sense as a younger man NOT to associate with people who required an inordinate amount of energy from me without giving something back. That’s not to say I don’t engage in charity or altruism… but I do it on my terms. This left me ill-equipped for the special brand of crazy that my ex-wife and her family can create.
Your attempt to follow the path of “honor” will result in more assaults, domestic violence, stalking, and other potential crimes than you (or any rational person) would EVER want in life. I only left my marriage when a suicide attempt failed. Why did I want to end it through suicide instead of divorce? Because of the feeling of failure that divorce represented for me. Also, her waffling between ranting lunatic and doting wife left me questioning my version of events.
You MAY be a father. If that is proven to be true, honor that special bond. But don’t tie yourself to this anchor and jump off the pier amongst the sharks. It will take every ounce of your sanity just to mitigate her nastiness with quality parenting on your end. Being married to her only makes your task harder. How difficult do you want it to be?
When this happened to me I wish I would have told the three lawyers to go f themselves and spent the $20k suing the crap out of my crazy CB.
1. She didn’t have any money so she would have had to settle for what _I_ wanted out of court.
2. If she did have money to defend herself I would have drawn a line in the sand as to where I stood.
Yes it is risky to spend $20k+ on a lawsuit but boy howdy I wish I had.
Whatever you decide to do get the paternity test, get as fair of a parenting plan as you can (have dr t write one up). Use OFW so things don’t get out of control in email, text, or phone.
The only contact you should have now is through your lawyer through serving her to force her to stay in town until the child is proven to be yours. Then go for full custody (you’ll never get it if it goes to court but does draw the line in the sand).
Refuse to pay child support. It’s a joke and if you know the history of it and the system you would be appalled to ever pay one cent. If you do have to pay make sure to have your agreement cap it at the rate you pay now. Have her agree to that. Again use OFW now! Settle at 50/50 you’ll pay for day care, school, etc but NO child support.
These are ALL things I wish I had done when this exact thing happened to me. I’m loosing out on $12k a year now and she’s remarried, has a job, gym membership, maid, new car, new house, new baby that she’s sending to a $1k a month day care, etc etc. All the while I get shafted and my daughter gets bought and paid for by my money.
Dude it sucks do your best to not let it happen to you.
This is the first time I’ve posted on here but I’ve been perusing the site for quite a while. It was a god send for me and my feelings. I do like the thought of getting counseling, but you really need the right one. My now ex (I moved over three hours away now) went to the first marriage counseling meeting to muck it all up and make sure we all knew who the problem was:) My ex wife has a Wicklander training certificate which is the same training an interrogating police officer would receive. That was fun for me. A Narcissist with training in interrogations, did I ever win on that exacta bet. Do not pick the wrong therapist. The therapist I had just thought if I would meet her list of demands, everything would work out. My stuff was tangible; it’s easy to say I was underemployed because I was. It is hard to come from a position of strength when this was the case. My point is you need to tell your counselor the specific reason you are there. They need to have experience otherwise you will go backwards. Ok back to you Eric. You seem to have a pretty fair grasp on all of this stuff. We didn’t know until we knew. Then it was too late. I think each person on here will tell you about the “Vulcan mind meld” that we have all gone through. I tend to ramble but it’s fairly easy what to do. You also have the added advantage that you left her before. Tell her under no circumstances you are you will have a relationship with her due to this. Tell her you don’t want to be the father at all. Do the DNA test to show you mean business if nothing else. If you are ok with having a child because it is a wonderful thing, that’s cool. Bluff your way first. You have a card to play at that is you and your steadfastness in this situation. I also know you will have to communicate with her because this is is pretty big deal. The one thing I have learned is to develop a “press release” in your mind when they go that place. You don’t have to say it to them, but when they go to that place you can recite it to yourself the conversation becomes comical no matter what they say. My one I used was I know you have a limited mental capacity and you are doing the best you can with you have, and I can appreciate that. I also watched the Tom Brokaw segment on Churchill and the British in wwII. The Germans bombed them in London 76 straight days. The London paper repeated the headline each day with “I’m sorry Hitler, is that all you have” That girl with your child is Hitler.
What you say about choosing the right therapist is spot -on. My friend, when looking for an individual therapist to help him deal with his wife’s abuse and his childhood abuse issues, picked the first one he saw in the yellow pages. BIG MISTAKE. When he told her about his decision to leave his wife, she advised him to “bring his wife in on the conversation” -this after him trying to get his wife to go to counseling and her refusing, because there was “nothing wrong with her”. When he told her he was having an affair, she turned from controlling, frigid female Hitler to understanding, hurt, forgiving martyr who was willing to go to couple’s counseling. He stayed, and she is using the affair and therapy to control him even more with FOG (fear, obligation, and guilt). She had no desire to work to improve the marriage, only agreed to therapy to get him to stay. Now things are worse than ever before.
When choosing a therapist for individual therapy or marriage counseling with a Personality Disordered Individual, it is a MUST that you find one who believes that men can be abused, and won’t be an enabling partner with the abuser against you. If this happens, you can spend months or years of your life going backwards or spinning your wheels in the FOG, when you could be putting the pieces of your life back together instead.
You are right Autumn. I had to deal with every stupid stereotype that men deal with. All men are not “sitcom dads”. Your friend’s experience is exactly what I went through. I don’t see any way couple’s therapy can work when one is an N. I know with my experience I came out much worse. The problem is it can only go two ways. Either the N gets exposed and then they are so angry that your life gets worse. The other scenario is they control every aspect of the counseling, making your life worse. In the real world counseling can work, but when an N is involved the real world doesn’t exist.
I know this is a bit late, but I have to add onto this. New Jersey is really, really, really tough on fathers. You are screwed if she files anything in NJ, so start reading the support and custody guidelines, and see what you can salvage for yourself and the kid. If you could get her to move to Alabama in order to support her and be a parent to the kid (it’s worth a shot, but don’t stay anywhere with her and don’t make any moves in the “we are a couple” direction).
Prior to that, I would insist on seeing her pee on a stick, and then getting a paternity test. Since she is threatening to find a man who loves her really really – there is a chance you are the one who got the booby prize in the you’re a daddy news. They lie, so you cannot accept that this is the truth.
Tell her you will not marry her. Don’t bother with the priest – start enforcing your boundaries and the ability to say no right now.
I hope you update this and let us all know what happened. A lot of those who follow this blog know exactly what you are feeling, and know how quickly this will head straight to hell.
Since she is threatening to find a man who loves her really really – there is a chance you are the one who got the booby prize in the you’re a daddy news.
Excellently said! As a woman married to a man divorced from Crazy, this is what always drove me nuts. He knew that she would lie, exaggerate and manipulate to get what she wanted from others; he saw it firsthand. But somehow he swallowed everything she said to HIM as truth. Even when lies were detected, he made excuses for them as a one-off. Finally he began understanding that he couldn’t trust ANYTHING she said to him, about anything, no matter how mundane (the phrase, “what reason does she have to lie about that” has left his vocabulary).
Eric, she threatened to leave you to find someone else to be with her “100%”. Now, while she might accomplish this by telling some sad sack a sob story about how she’s pregnant by someone who horribly betrayed her, she knows that what will tie someone closest to her is being pregnant with HIS child, not someone else’s. So the odds are that she would sleep with someone else – men are, sadly, suckers when it comes to this – and pretend she’s pregnant by him, and use the baby to manipulate him into what she wants. Which is potentially exactly what she’s doing to you. She may have just given her entire hand away when she told you that line. In fact, if you were to ask if that’s what she did to you, you might see a flash of horror in her eyes before the anger at being accused takes over.
Don’t make any deals with Crazy. They’ll remember them differently and find something else to guilt you into when they claim to have met them and you don’t honor your part of it. They are not trustworthy people – and like your Crazy, claim to have absolutely legitimate reasons why they don’t need to be – so a deal is only a losing proposition for you.
Please let us know how it’s going.
I would be really interested to hear how Eric is doing now that it’s been some time since the last post on this topic. Maybe a follow up session, whether it’s bad news or not. Sharing news on progress would be, I suspect very comforting to forum members who identify with the issues he describes.
For those interested, after GTFO and the ex moving several times to avoid 50/50, now into an area which makes it VERY difficult to pick our children up on time or see them during the week (believe me I’ve busted a gut to do so) I’ve survived three Hoover sessions, two DV sessions (her being the protagonist – stupidly I didn’t report her to the police), a false accusation of DV, detached emotionally after great counselling, she’s refused to agree to any suggested parenting agreements, she’s refused mediation. I’m at a point now where I’ve got no other option than court. That said, I’ve saved money, have a solicitor who understands NPD/BPD, have reports from my counsellor on my commitment to my child’s welfare, and most importantly a trail of abusive emails, and a recording of her promising me that she will take my children away from me and never let me see them again. In a perverse way, I’m looking forward to having my opportunity to have someone else set the goalposts in concrete. DrT’s advice of ABR (always be recording) is gold dust!
I feel strong having successfully navigated on my own compass with help from this website, but I’m under no illusions that this is the final point of the battle. It’s a long term commitment, like my kids are.
I’ve also met a girl who seems to have her head screwed on the right way round and seems fully supportive of my situation.
There is hope, and I hope Eric feels the same.