This isn’t a rhetorical question. If you’ve asked yourself more than once, “Is my girlfriend/wife/fiancee a crazy bitch?” as a clinical psychologist, I’m here to tell you the answer is, “Yes, diagnostically speaking, she may very well be a crazy bitch.”
A crazy bitch insidiously makes you feel like the unstable, angry person. You soon doubt your interpretation of events and experiences. In lots of cases, this type of woman may have a personality disorder, such as Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) or Antisocial Personality Disorder or some combination of the Cluster B disorders. In other cases, they may not qualify for diagnoses, but it doesn’t really matter. Abusers are highly resistant to change regardless of whether they have a personality disorder or not.
Here’s a quiz to find out if your wife, girlfriend or ex is an abuser:
- Does she fly into rages without warning over relatively trivial matters like a web page loading too slowly?
- Are you always the scapegoat/bad guy whenever she’s frustrated, disappointed or just plain bored?
- Do her friends (that is, if she has any) describe her as a “drama queen?”
- Does she describe herself as a drama queen? If so, congrats. You found one with a modicum of self-awareness.
- Is her lipstick a little too red? Is it applied like theater makeup and a tad crooked?
- Did sex begin with an earth shattering bang and fizzle into infrequent, transactional and conditional sex?
- Is she a black-and-white, all-or-nothing thinker?
- Do you lie to your family, friends and colleagues about what goes on at home?
- Do you find yourself making excuses to your family, friends and colleagues for her inexcusable behavior?
- Do you find yourself walking on eggshells around her?
- Does she hate your friends and family and become angry or tearful when you spend time with them?
- Is she pathologically jealous?
- Does she project her feelings onto you? For example, she’s yelling and raging and then accuses you of being angry.
- Does focus solely on her emotional experience while exhibiting little or no empathy for yours?
- Have you distanced yourself from friends and family because of your relationship?
- Does she place you on a pedestal one day only to tear you down the next day? “I’ve never known anyone like you before. You’re so wonderful!” Next day: “You’re the devil! You’re the most selfish bastard I’ve ever met! You don’t love me!”
- Did she change her identity after she landed you? For example, when you first met her she was a sexy, adventurous, sweet ballbuster; now, she’s afraid of her own shadow, has no outside interests and goes ballistic if she has to do anything without you.
- Does she put you into “no win” situations in which nothing you do is good enough and you’re guaranteed to fail?
- Does she exhibit stalker behaviors? This usually occurs during the courtship phase or when she senses you’re about to make a break for it. For instance: Calling and hanging up? Calling over and over and over until you answer the phone? Does she wait outside your home, uninvited, until you arrive? Does she show up at places she know you’ll be, also uninvited? Has she tried to get close to your friends in inappropriate ways?
If you answered “yes” to more than two of these questions, you may be involved with a female abuser. You’re not alone. They’re everywhere.
Most of the men who ended up in my therapy office were there because they were experiencing stress, depression or anxiety as a result from being in a relationship with an emotionally abusive woman. Ironically, most of the time they were shamed and pathologized into seeking counseling by these women. Never mind that most of the symptoms my male patients experienced were a direct result of being in a relationship with an abuser who most likely had one of the abusive personality disorders
If you think you may be involved with an abusive woman, good luck. They’re typically treatment resistant and they never really get any better. If you choose to stay in the relationship, I strongly recommend you educate yourself about the signs and symptoms of abuse, personality disorders and learn some basic behavioral management skills.
Counseling, Consulting and Coaching with Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD
Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD helps individuals work through their relationship and codependency issues via telephone or Skype. She specializes in helping men and women trying to break free of an abusive relationship, cope with the stress of an abusive relationship or heal from an abusive relationship. She combines practical advice, emotional support and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Schedule a Session page for professional inquiries.
Want to Say Goodbye to Crazy? Buy it HERE.
Crazy woman from istockphotos.
Walking on eggshells from “ada loves you” on flickr.
Shit – I could answer yes to SEVEN of the above….
I answered “yes” to all of them when assessing my ex-wife
its great to know that im not fricken alone, i dont know what to do any more i feel like i am falling in and out of love with her daily… she admits she has a problem, but never changes. its a god damn roller coaster
David Lebrocq says
Nick: When my daughter was 1 month old I was told by my ex that she would take my daughter from me so she never knew who her father was.
The next day my ex was telling me how much she loved me.
I stayed for as long as I could (almost three years) to make sure I had a strong bond with my daughter before I was locked out during another blow out.
My ex also acknowledge she had problems, but I can tell you after 3 years on the roller coaster the roller coaster ride WILL NOT END.
Dr Tara is the expert here but my advice – Get out – and get out now.
mike scott says
Scarry sounds like my ex wife. Oh wait it is. Sorry David. It’s not our fault. The only one that suffers is our children. The ride will never end for us.
i did the same, i stuck it out with my crazy ex until i knew that my kids could pick me out in a crowd, then I pulled the rug from under her lazy, crazy butt, i brought home a moving truck, gave her a furniture store card for 2 grand and money for rent, and still she went to a womens shelter and kept my kids away for 88 days until I learned that all i had to do was get to the court house and I had a court date 9 days later. All that heart break was resolved when the judge gave me the three days a week that i was asking for. she tried to say that i was abusive but i did my homework, voluntarily went to an anger management class, got assessed by a social services psyhc and brought him to court with me. The judge balked at her abuse complaint because she had no police report and I was granted my parenting time starting that same day. The first thing my 4 year old said to me at pick up was “happy dada home”. He is ten now and he and his little bro say that to me every day. She has moved on to another poor sap, and the kids are already asking when they can stay with me fulltime. pls pray for their safety.
cant say my name says
i feel like im going thru the same thing right now, but my baby is 1.5 yrs old. and i get told im abusive and i have to choose my family or her, and stuff that happens years ago or months ago never gets forgotten. so my first step is to see like you said an anger management class. thanks for your help i dont wanna lose my daughter
I’ve been here almost 7 years at first great but as the years go by worse and worse we have 3 girls it’s holding me here but seriously it’s crazy she says I cheat or talk to other women all the time and I caught her cheating red handed idk what to do
at least she admits it
will price says
I wonder just what percentage of women are like this. I talked ot one pastor that said many of the women he counseled were getting out of relationships because they were bored. These women are being conditioned this way, because this is only a recent phenomena
admitting it is the first step, but as the the dr. states ,typically these woman never change. god bless the ones that do.
mazzy star says
i feel you bro, im in love with my sour patch kid.
10 out of 17. Mine also has OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) on top of everything else. Cleaning herself like crazy, making life miserable to me and her family on a non-stop basis. Things like, passing nearby of a mail envelope which has been left on the floor drives her nuts cause the envelope is dirty. Things like keeping her cell phone and all the remote controls at home in plastic sandwich bags so she doesn’t have to throw them away if somebody outside of the family touches them. Things like not sitting next to me on the same couch because I have my daily clothing on me. Things like following me around the house to make sure I washed my hands everytime I stepped out and came back.
Oh boy, I must be crazy myself for marrying this woman, I see no other explanation!.
I hope that anyone who is reading this and is in this situation WITHOUT kids will think twice about starting a family with such an unstable person. My grandmother was like this (actually, she was much, much worse) and wreaked havoc on my family for years. Obviously, I’m glad I’m here and I’m glad my Mother is here, but bringing kids into a situation like this is only going to make things worse as they will become pawns in her game. She will manipulate, abuse and treat them like crap – just as she has done you. They will bear the scars of her behavior and never feel adequate enough because of all the shit she has put them through. My grandmother literally ruined my Mother’s adult life (as well as childhood) with this childish bull shit. Just read the comments of these men who have kids with women like this: RUN LIKE HELL.
7? I got 12.
Yesterday was our 11th marriage anniversary.
Are you staying for another 11years?
Hell I answered yes to 15, sometimes to 2.I must say the first 6 monthes were the best 6 monthes of my life, then thing began to change, slowly she went from Totaly awesome to total nut job. I can’t figure out why her exhusband moved into the spare bedroom for 8 years, and stayed away for weeks on end befor finding a girlfriend and divorcing her. It sure wasn’t anything she did.
Yeah, consider yourself lucky. Besides jealousy, lipstick, pedestal and stalking (sofar) most of these things ring true and have happened. Daily. 5 years long.
God, am I stupid or what?
Hey, me too: i answered yes to 7 questions….but i didn’t need this test to know that she is a bitch. I would have already left if it wasn’t for my 3 yr old daughter. what should i do? it happens way too often that i just want to leave and never come back without giving any warning , just leave. but then what would happen to me and my daughter? I feel really trapped
I am feeling the same way. It feels like my happiness, my life, my hopes and dreams have been ripped apart by this woman. I am sorry to hear, but can’t you take your daughter and fight her for custody.
I know how you feel. I just ended my marriage with my wife who was diagnosed with BPD and I also answered yes to over 7 of those questions. I luckily didn’t have any kids with her. I do have a friend that has two little girls and he was married to his BPD wife for 9 years. He is divorced and two years later remarried to a great kind, “genuine”, loving woman. We were talking the other day and he said getting divorced was the best thing he ever did for him and his girls. There was some hell to deal with but in the end it is worth it. Life is too short, don’t let her control your life. It has only been two months since my divorce and I 1000x better than I did. You can take your happiness back, these women are cruel and controlling.
Kevin Mays says
I feel trapped also. I have a 15 yearold son and a crazy crazy wife that works for a lawfirm. She threatens me all the time with…. you will be broke and homless when i get finished with you. She is extremly mean, controling, un affectionate…cruel…cuses at me and all I do is is non stop fix, repaire, help people in our family etc. I am told by our friends all the time rthat I am the nicest considerate affectionate man they know. IM screwed!!
I swear,Ive been through/seen at least 13 of them…just got divorced 3 months(and I actually didnt see see it coming—)…and Im still wondering what more I could have done….going to divorce support group for the first time tonight.holy friggin crap…gotta get my shit straight….
leave the bi**h says
looks like i am in the crazy bitch club.. i thought i loved her but i think i have bitten off more than i can chew this time.. she is just not reasonable and now my sex life is pittiful i was getting more when i was single, not that that is the most important thing but jesus… cant be bothered any more its time for a new start. its been almost a year of frustration.. what a bitch.. my advice if your reading this and you are wondering if your gf or wife is crazy and your unhappy get out of there while you can. if its not good now dont hold on in hope that its going to get better, trust me it wont you will just end up in a bad place. run.. run realy get the f”*k out of there while you can.. life is too short to waste on somebody undeserving of your affection!!!
Hell I am at 8. I am hoping it is just because she is pregnant.
It has been a hell of a ride.
My wife won’t forgive me for anything. She is always right and I am always wrong. Her way or the Highway.
I answered yes to 11 of these. I know this girl is wrong for me. I don’t know why I’m still with her. Our good are great, our lows are terrible, and I’ve always felt she doesn’t approve of who I am or how I live. I can’t bring myself to leave her. I feel like I’m in high school again, I’m a grown man.
I am late finding this article, but decided to share. I have been with my wife for 5 years. I can check off all except one. When I found out I was dying from a genetic disease she treated me worse. Ruined my career, ruined my finances, ruined my friendships, and then blamed it on me being a failure. I believed her . tried to kill myself, several times. Ended up back with her after the infidelity, lies, drug abuse. I have lived through all of it. She told me she hopes I die , literally the same day we found out I had less than a year to live. She left me homeless, broke and alone, but it wasn’t enough she would message me reminding me all the time then offer me sanctuary because I was her play thing.. I am the person she destroys to feel better about herself. The worst part is she convinced everyone it was my fault. Which led me to believe its my fault this article came a little to late for me l, but simply knowing I’m not crazy and that everything I suspected was true is true, is enough. I made peace with my declining health, and unfortunately me and her are together. I have no other option since she crippled my entire world so that I couldn’t get away. I appreciate anyone who listened.. I have never gotten the chance to get that off my chest .. At least not to anyone who believed me about her..
Man, enjoy the rest of your life ON YOUR TERMS. There is a great Russian saying that goes something along the lines of “You’ve already crossed the line so you may as well dance.” Dude, if the clock is ticking and you know you’ve already crossed the line and you’re about to face the reality of death (alone, I might add) – then go out with a bang and dance your heart out. Don’t live miserably to the end.
Mr. E. says
I don’t know if this is common, but my wife pouts at the slightest disapproval. For example, if I don’t laugh at her “jokes,” or on the rare occasions when I tell her to “stop it.”. The pout also makes an appearance when I dare to start a “we need to talk about [x]” discussion.
She pouts by sticking her lower lip out really far – it’s cartoonish. I’m starting to think, however, that it’s not deliberately comical. Usually it’s a quick flash of the lip, unless she’s about to start crying (which happens when I’ve held her accountable. This leads straight into the “not my fault and you’re so mean” spiel.).
And a couple of times when I’ve screwed up extra special, she gives me this look where her face muscles all go slack and her eyes seem to turn black. It’s _horrifying_.
So, “makes inappropriate faces” might be another hint…
That’s a good addition to the checklist, Mr E. Inappropriate or disproportionate reactions are definitely a common occurrence with these women. I’ve heard others describe the last facial expression you describe as “the death stare” and, yes. it’s horrifying.
Remember, the emotional range of these women is that of a 5-year old. Hold her accountable, criticize her or ask her to have a conversation she doesn’t want to have (for fear of being held accountable or criticized) and you’ll get one or a combination of the following three responses:
3. Cold, sullen withdrawal (i.e., pouting)
Thanks for the addition.
No 1. check, No. 2check, No. 3 check,check and check. Been there for a long time now. And the”LOOK” as it’s sometimes called is a “death look”. very well put. When I first met my wife I know she could “look daggers” at anyone who crossed her but in those early days I never thought that that look would be turned on me. Wish all this information has been availible 40 years ago.
will price says
This is great info to know, only thirty years to late for me. Unofrtunately the church does not recognise this either, as the man is supposed to bend over backwards for the woman regardless of what she does
Agreed. My church laughed off abusive behavior as just being a female thing and that somehow lasting years with an abusive psychopath was an honorable anniversary to be celebrated. That. Is. Sick.
will price says
We have progressed to a point in the modern era where rational thinking IMHO has now become irrational. Politically correct laws pervade everything, and the lives of many men are viewed as expendable in regards to family.
Steve Olimer says
I was married for twenty years. She left 3 years ago and hooked up with a guy that worked for me for the previous 7 years. I tried to leave 10 years before, but she got pregnant with our second child. I moved hell and high water to please her, she always found something to criticise or complain about. Lost contact with all my friends, most of my family and and all my colleagues. Made excuses all the time why i couldn’t make 20 years of staff parties-didn’t go by myself either. I changed my interests and lost me. She lied about many things or hid the truth. The silent treatment and withholding of emotional intimacy and love were her well developed weapons. I eventually realized I had lost her too years before, shortly after we were married. Yeah, I did the right thing by the church and family and tried to make it work until depression, stress,self abhorence and resentment made me give up and just be a door mat. This pushed me over the edge untilI stood up for myself, went on a fishing trip with my 65 year old brother … and she kicked all of points 1-17 into ultra mode. Counselor even told me her emotional wounds were real and i should treat them as such. So much for reality. I didn’t even get a chance to talk to her face to face in sessions. Wish I had of nipped it in the bud 17 -18 years before. Much better now but scars run deep.
Amen brother! I’ve got seven more years before plan B and I can’t wait to be free.
I have have 17 years left.
Yes i have went through this also the control thing got way out of hand she wanted to control everything i was involved in she even want to have some type of job booking my band’s jobs and then if someone tried to dance with me i was yelled at like a kid all the way home i told her that i had talked to my ex- whom i left for her. she hated her and told me that she should be around when ever i talked to her.rage and conflict were always. involved sex was good but then while having that she would bring up my ex during that i finally moved in to the other room. occasionally going back our room and later it all would star over again finally she went and had a agreement for the house drawn up because she rented the house a year and a half before i moved in but we bought the house together and she felt she should keep the house. i did not know what i was dealing with because her family won’t tell her she needs help the preacher at my church said you love your wife like God loved the church But he’s never lived with this woman only me finally i got my own place gave her the house and now she says i ruined her life.by leaving and of course she has never done anything wrong. there is so much more but she had me thinking i was crazy and feeling guilty and sorry for her
Wow, I never knew only 2 symptoms were good enough to tag these hellcats.
Mine used to pout, complain when I spent time with family, direct what I bought and what I should wear, laugh at things masculine, like the show ‘Manswers’, and return a cold, deadly stare when I asked her questions that stumped her. When I saw that, I submissively apologized and then she raged about how I was disrespectful. Oh, she also teased me sexually, but when the time came for actual sex, she broke down crying.
Hellcats, what an apt word.
how do i leave a woman like this while fearing that she will self-harm and knowing i’ll probably have to change my phone number? i love her but i think she is why i’m depressed… i’ve always been introspective but never this frantic and downtrodden.
oops i noticed a typo in my email right as i hit submit… hope i get notifications
Hey tmoo, you can not let yourself fear her self harm. You are not responsible for her actions or her happiness. Get out, don’t look back and do whatever you need to do to take care of yourself. You will feel better when you do. Good luck.
god it’s going to be so hard because our lives are so intertwined… we’re in the midst of moving from a room in a house to an apartment (my name’s not on the lease, and there’s a third party, one of her friends)… i tried to leave once before, but she got bery compassionate and convinced me i was a scared little boy trapped in an adult’s body. i have no one to talk to because all my friends are alienated, evem geograpgically, but i can move bavk with them. she says i can’t leave because we have ferrets together… so glad they aren’t human babies. thanks kenny, i know you are right but it is very hard to just leave, and i think how she’s conditioned me to think makes it harder. typos: mobile device, please excuse.
French Spy says
Thanks for that answer, which I needed. (Worried about the woman I’m divorcing, who is self-dangerous.) Now that I think about it more, I can feel sorry for her without thinking for one second that it is my problem or responsibility.
i call that death stare the medusa face. has she ever punched you for running a yellow light, kicked you in the ass as you were leaving the house to avoid getting physical with her or just escape her rants . of course she has. get out and enjoy your freedom because as it is you are in prison with this woman, there are beautiful girls out there, your sisters and mothers are perfect examples.
The Death Stare! I know it well. Those are the times I actually feel physically intimidated.
Problem is most people do not see that side of her.. They may think she is over bearing, but if I go through the divorce it will be my fault to most people.
I do not hate her I think she is a very good mom and made me a better dad, but I cannot stand how she treats me and doing it around our kids.
I stayed 21 Plus years of this and have a 16 year old, 13 year old, and a 6 year old. I am not perfect, but many of things I was driven to. (Not abuse of any kind). I feel alone and isolated in my basement, but I also do not want to interact with her.
My marriage has been interesting, decades of giving in. My advice is never marry for sex. I have been physically abused and battered. I have never fought back. She has damaged our walls with her angry violence. She gets nuts 1 day a week and lays down and sobs and freaks out and for no reason the next day is a completely happy person. I love being around the kids and find enough satisfaction there. I fear it will be worse if I leave before the kids are out of school. So I just keep on keeping on. FYI. She has become her mother.
c man says
oh, god this might be my situation. she tells me to go hang with my friends and is mad about it when i get home.
I answered yes to about 5 of these questions, and honestly, I think I might be able to say yes to more… but after 8 years, the lines sort of blur, so I can see how she’s made me feel like I’m the goofball. She always will tell me to go hang with my friends and the once per month that I do, I get a damned guilt trip about it.
are you the doctor that posted a story? wow , that sounds unreal
Mine would encourage me to hang with my friends, too. But would call, facebook, text, whatever me a couple of times while I did so. “The kids are finally asleep, after a long battle!” at 10pm, “Kid A is coughing all night”, “I’m so exhausted, my back hurts, because I carried Kid B all day…” and so on. Making me feel bad about spending time without the family. Thinking “no, I can’t go out again, I already did that 4 weeks ago, she’s so exhausted because being a SAHM is the hardest job ever, apparently”. I mean it must have been super duper hard, because she complained all the time, right? *sigh*
mr tall says
my god, THIS. i answered yes to six of the above, and the one that gets to me the most is when she tells me to get out and won’t even listen to a word i say, then when i do go to leave she gets angry that I’m leaving, she has severed abandonment issues to the point of i can’t go outside for a cigarette while we’re fighting because she’s afraid i won’t come back, yet try to open the door and she’s locked me out
That’s a cluster B whacko in a nutshell. Abandonment is their single, biggest fear.
Wow i have the same thing with my wife of 4 years
I think my girlfriend is definately Narcisistic after reading this – she’s got most of those traits but the one I find most annoying is her distorted perception of reality where I will do something and then be screamed at that I have been told 3 times before not to do that – where as in reality i’ve never even heard it mentioned. I’m also aware that she has been slating me behind my back to her friends and family which is really getting on my nerves as half of what she has been saying isn’t true (well in this reality!).
What do I do? Should I confront her and risk a minefield tantrum and half the house being blown up!??
Confrontation rarely works. Oftentimes, NPDs/BPDs twist it around and blame you. Also, you will unleash the hounds of hell if you dare to criticize your NPD girlfriend. In fact, the more accurate the criticism, the nastier the NPD will become.
What should you do? Ask yourself why you’re in this relationship. What are you getting out of it? Why do you tolerate her behavior? Why don’t you end it before, god forbid, you have children with this woman and are tethered to her financially for the rest of her life?
will price says
I think this is a very helpful website. It has been many years since I splt with my ex, but the scars still remain, and I must admit I was warned before I married her. She was very cute, and I thought her behavior would change. I had no idea at the time she had a personality disorder, and since she blamed nearly everything on me, I thought I was the problem for years. She forced me into a thankless job with a company I ended up hating because they cared litle for their agents and had high turnover in that position. The real problem was in the inability of the church to recognize her behavior and blame me for leaving(divorcing) her to keep my sanity, after she literally drove me into it.
Edward Allen says
I have been with mine over 20 years and the first 7 years were fantastic. Slowly over the rest of the time together she had developed most of the traits you listed. I’m afraid that if I divorce she will end up with most of what we have. Over the years she has become slightly disabled with Fibromyalgia. Now I will look like an ass if I try to leave.
Coming Out of The Fog says
EA, the first 7 years I was with my wife were fantastic, also. It was as though a switch was flipped overnight. I am sorry to hear about your disability. How has your wife responded to this?
ArchCalibur X says
What if you happen to love this person? Its sad I know, but I feel attached to her, even if I know she causes me pain. I’ve never dated anyone else, successfully. She’s the only girl I’ve been with and its been for 10 years. She pretty much all I have, unfortunately, your check list almost describes her perfectly. The biggest one is, that there is not room in the relationship for my problems, if I complain to her, or have an issue with her, she makes me out to be the bastard, and guilt trips me in to recanting. Worse thing is I don’t think she knows she’s doing it. Its like she manipulating me without consciously trying.
The best advice I can offer is: leave before it’s too late. After five years of marriage and two kids later, I’m really tired of all the attempts at controlling me as well as being made to feel that I will seldom do anything right in her eyes. I’m also tired of making excuses for her, thinking that m true love will somehow rescue her. She wants a divorce as I have have been “rebelling” for a while now. I’m convinced that she never really loved me as she is too busy loving herself. Believe you me I started off quite enthusiastically and in love. But tolerating all her crap made me a very bitter person: although she wants to part on friendly terms “for the sake of the children”, I can’t even stand to be in the same room with her and I feel very defensive everytime she starts to speak to me expecting her to have some snide remark or demand. I see she is reading a lot of Christian “self-help” books for relationships, but when she mentions it to me she normally makes it about what I must do and not what she or us must focus on. She would tell me I need to communicate my feelings to her, but when I do she will either judge, minimise or ignore my concerns. About six months back, she gave me back the wedding rings saing she wanted a divorce, I said to wait since she just gave birth and I thought it was the hormones. Well get this: three months ago all of a sudden I get a complaint about how I’m no longer showing her love and how I’ve become HER . When I asked about the wedding rings, she tells me I must propose to her as she proposed to me to get married . To me this is very arrogant and angered me even more: clearly it is all about HER and she feels entitled to string me along as she deems fit. She doesn’t even get it wh I’m angry. My biggest regret is that I gave my children the wrong mother.
Wow, when I read your comment about how she wants a divorce because you’ve been “rebelling” I got chills. I’m always accused of being a rebel any time I speak up and attempt to state my side of an argument. Now she is beating me up because I am “not the same person that I married” according to her. That is because I have quit being a doormat and just going along with everything that she wants. It took me over 5 years of being married to this devil before I finally realized that she was just going to continue to take advantage of my easy-going good nature and bury her high heels deeper and deeper into my throat. During one blow out yell-fest she said she missed the old me. I told her she killed the old me, that he’s gone and now she gets the new me. Her favorite label for me was passive-aggressive (thanks female-biased family counselor) so I dropped the passive and now she just gets the aggressive. She hates it, which is ironic because she is uber-confrontational and thinks it is wonderful to just say what is on her mind regardless of who it may affect. I hate it too because it is not who I am. In this relationship, I used to be a very easy-going guy not sweating the small stuff. I always thought that if I gave her her way on little things that didn’t matter, if something really important to me came up she would remember how I never got in the way of what she wanted and she would return the favor. Funny how someone who can remember what I was wearing on a particular day 7 years ago and exactly what I said during an argument about something that I have completely forgotten about 6 years, 11 months and 3 weeks ago can’t remember the good things that I’ve been doing for her all along. What I didn’t realize at the time is that I am dealing with a person with a behavioral defect. She cloaks her agenda with “I am doing this for the good of the family, for us.” She plays the martyr to a tee. She calls me “the lawyer” because usually the only time I will engage her is when I have some firm ground to stand on. She hates it when I have a valid argument and the moment she senses that I have a slight upper-hand in the fray, she finds an excuse (I don’t have time for this, the baby can hear, etc) and walks away. She accuses me of not finding “appropriate” times to discuss issues with her yet 9 times out of 10 she initiates the argument in the “inappropriate” venue (usually in front of the kid) knowing full well that it is an issue we do not agree on and then tries to turn me into the bad guy for responding. It’s like being in grade school and getting in trouble because you hit the bully back after he punched you in the nose. Another thing I find interesting and conflicted about her behavior is how she touts “abandonment issues” as her core problem and yet she is the one who is very flip and quick to throw the “D” word around, as she did tonight. It must feel great to be that free and not worry about the affect your words have on others. She grew up without a dad. He left her and her mother when she was an infant. In my experience, women who grew up without fathers are so screwed up in general and especially in relationships. I’ve dated several and should have known better. Hindsight, what can I say?
I totally understand where you’re coming from. I am starting the divorce process (her choice) and I’m hoping she doesn’t financially ruin me with spousal support in addition to child support for the 2 children.
I’m always wrong. I’m always the bad guy. I’m unreasonable. I’m illogical. She even makes up stuff when she goes on about all the things I’ve done to her. It’s truly mind boggling.
Dan, you have described my marriage and my most recent relationship which I ended 10 weeks ago. I totally know how you feel, I guess the one good thing about me is now is that I am now alone, however I am not lonely!
I have come to realization thanks to this site, I that I have a lot emotional abuse issues, low self esteem and worthiness issues from my childhood. I am now taking the steps to working myself so that I can stop the cycle.
Last night I had my first emotional break down and in a sense I feel good about it. To be honest I feel it was purge of bad emotions and now I feel I can really begin to heal.
I was so in love with my ex-girlfriend, I wanted to marry her and give her the world but now when I look back, the cost of doing so would of been my soul.
I believe you should not have to beg anyone to be with you and after all the games and guys she threw at me I just shut down. I really should of had the courage to say and do something at the time but I just couldn’t. To be honest I could not believe that this woman that I loved so much would hurt me so but after spending time on this site, I was dealt a no win situation, of course I did not know what I know at the time and I just played along. My health went down, my relationship with my children were effected, I became moody and would snap at anything.
Now that I have removed my ex-girlfriend from my life I have seen incredible changes with myself, however I am still scared, I am not use to this new empowered me, I am making the child in me grow up and he does not want this although it is for the better, I will benefit from this growing pain and so will my children.
I am proud to share with you that I did not give in the child in my contact my ex-girlfriend, I was so messed up last night that I want to beg for her to come back. Well guys, I did not do it! I am so relieved today.
I do know if I ever get that feeling again, all I have to do read the articles and posts this site then the feeling goes away. Thank you once again to everyone for letting me share. I love you all!
You’re not alone buddy.
You’re on the right track. Keep it up.
Remeber. Pain will be temporary, but quitting lasts forever.
How many of you guys HATE weekends as much as I do? I really wish I could work 7 days a week because work is the only place I can find any peace. Tomorrow I will be wearing my TGIM shirt!
Zappo Blappo says
I recall that seemingly never ending time. The weekends were always the worst time and by Monday when I arrived at work I would be so emotionally numb and feel like I had run a triathalon. It wasn’t until late Tuesday that I began to feel normal again. This went on for months until I tricked her into going to marriage counseling and the counselor told her to stop yelling at me for the 15 minutes of time on Saturday and Sunday mornings when I did my free weight lifting. The counselor called it my “sacred time” and all people should have some every day regardless of what alone activity you’re doing. In response to the counselor’s comment my wife (now X) screamed at the counselor. From that point on I made it a clear habit to take that time and keep that boundary drawn. Looking back on it nearly a dozen years later, that was the best change I could have ever made. If your partner won’t support you in something basic and fundamental, then she is not your partner. She’s just using you. Best wishes and good luck.
Ha! My STB-X is the same: Stating she is the more “direct one” who “says what’s on her mind”, and I’m the pleaser who trys to avoid conflict.Yet she would flip her shit the very moment ANYONE would be honest to her. Slight sulking, withdrawal and backstabing later on if it was just about some difference of opinion – a major rage-episode if it was about her.
And yes, these people can sense your arguments making sense a mile away, and when they KNOW they are losing the argument, because of rational and logic, they will either withdraw with a strawman-argument, “don’t want to talk about it” or will blame and insult you to death. So that after 5 minutes you don’t even know what the “discussion” was even about.
But I think they DO remember the things you did for them. Back then, those things were wonderful to them, a proof of your love – right now, they are to be expected for they are entitled to them.
My SAHM did less and less of housework. In the end, when I brought the children to bed (which I love, dont get me wrong), she said after 7pm “It’s home time for mommy!”, while I was doing laundry / dishes / younameit till 10pm. What did I get for that? Her saying “I even considered you might be gay” after the break-up. Ugh! All while I was the one almost begging for sex after months of emotional and physical withdrawal from her side.
When she once hugged me out of the blue after maybe a year of withdrawal (we haven’t cuddled once in four years after our first child was born), I couldn’t move! I didn’t know how to react. I was frozen like a statue, unable to do anything, fearing either outcome of my actions might be wrong.
Anyone watched Arressted Development? It was like the scene where Lucille hugs Michael: “Why are you squeezing me with your body?” “It’s a hug, Michael!”
I read this and after dealing with my ex-wife for as many years as I have, I read this quiz with my marriage in mind.
The question about the lipstick was the only no.
I read the description down below and yes, she’s the reason I was in therapy for 7 years.
Mr. E. says
Another possible addition:
Do mutual friends/roommates confront you when they’re upset with her?
I can recall several instances where a friend / roommate has come to me about her behavior (frequently with some hostility). I always figured this was because I was an easy target, and felt weak.
I definitely think poor boundaries on my part encouraged this behavior (I should have stopped them and told them to talk to her, not me), but I think the root problem is that they were afraid to confront her directly.
When I foolishly bring up whatever the friend/roomie complained about to her, I get interrogated and eventually raged at when I freeze up and stop talking. She’ll also hold a grudge against the person in question for ages.
The good news is, I’ve finally figured this out, and have started telling people to just talk to her. Curiously enough, they never do…
I’d love to know if this is a common experience.
ditto, ditto, ditto
Yep they hold grudges forever
Yep, common in my case at least… I don’t want to say never, (as in things will never get better), but don’t buy into the lie that in time she will get better. My opinion is give her a fair ultimatum to begin change tonight, and to continue improving daily within reason, or give her a time limit at which point you will leave.
I answered yes to 12,amazing! I was with this crazy witch for 14 months, not counting the 10 breakups/makeups and I actually asked her to marry me thinking this would ease the toxic abuse she would dish out on a continous basis, never did, nothing changed with this BP/BPD SMI woman. Everyone thinks she is the most wonderful,Christian woman on the outside for all to see, unfortunately that was the person I fell in love with, but on the inside she is a monster with demons as confirmed by two of her exe’s whom I shared notes with after we broke up, they both told me she was dangerous and stay away from her and be thankful I didn’t marry her.
So I’m not alone? I answered “YES” to all the questions above except the lipstick one too. The bad thing for me, is that I DO have kids with the woman.
She uses the kids as leverage whenever she feels like “leaving” because (insert today’s excuse here). Every evening I get “talked to” about how I can be improved upon. If I question her or call her out on any of her shortcomings, dear Lord in heaven the hell that follows is undescribable.
Guys, if you are with a woman like this and do not have chilcdren with her… GET OUT NOW!!!! NOW! NOW!
I pray almost everyday to get cancer.
If you’re praying for a terminal illness, there’s a definite problem. There’s a third option to dying and staying in this relationship: divorce. Marriage to these women can be like a slow, long psychological death (rather like certain forms of cancer), so why not cut the tumor out?
Yes it will be difficult and painful for both you and your children, but so is remaining in an abusive relationship. I know it isn’t easy, but the price of freedom, the eventual peace of mind and ability to enjoy life again is so very worth it.
Once you decide to take control of your destiny and take the first step…like meeting with a lawyer…you’ll be surprised how quickly your feelings of helplessness and despair will disappear.
Post-separation, you’ll be poor and you’ll miss living with your kids full time, but when you’re with them you’ll be walking tall. They’ll know it, you’ll know it, and it feels great.
You’ll be amazed at how much more enjoyable it is to spend time with your children when your ex isn’t off on the side treating you like a hand-puppet.
Your predicament seems overwhelming, but it isn’t.
Thanks, JP. Glad you’re back.
I agree do it
I lost count, some she doesn’t exactly fit into. Those she doesn’t fit into, her mother is a perfect fit. Her mother has most of these qualities too where applicable (obviously not the sex one). My gf complains about her mother’s behaviors and turns around and does the same crap. Point is, i don’t know if this kind of behavior is picked up by daughters or if its hereditary, but it’s something to think about. I know my gf has 3 older brothers, all seem rather level headed and fairly passive, just as their father. I’m the same way, probably a characteristic that plagues most men that stay in relationships with women like this.
I’m considering breaking up. Either I’m in denial, or conditioned, but my gf doesn’t seem completely EXTREME, but mostly there, we’ve talked about our problems and sometimes she can talk fairly about it…right now we are on a mutual “break” which just means we only see each other one day a weekend and she still calls and texts b/c she doesn’t have or isn’t close to any friends, except for one living 5 states away. Even then, they only talk once every few weeks.
I feel ya dude. Remember that most of the time girls turn out to be a lot like their mother whether they like to admit it or not. With your situation you have to think why she doesn’t have any close friends. Just dump her and get on with your life. It will be the best decision you ever made. I too am in a effed up situation. Been dating this girl for 7 months, and for the past 2 months she has been non-stop asking me to move in with her, even though I’ve told her numerous times I’m not ready yet. She has been married 3 times and has 3 kids, one doesnt live at home. I’ve never been married, and I don’t want kids of my own. She gets 12 of the situations above, even though I point out things like this to her, she gets p***ed off and flies off the handle and accuses me of being an a-hole. She brings up my ex’s non-stop and points out why I was the cause of the break ups in those relationships, even if my ex gf make some other dude stick his dong in her. She gets extremely jealous if a female talks to me or if a female friend calls. She gets angry when I hang out with my friends and accuses them of being gay. Everything started out awesome and I thought I finally found the one. But about 4 weeks ago we stopped having sex and she started getting angry over the slightest thing, ie, not responding to a text while i’m at work, friends calling me, me not pumping her gas, etc. I’m dumping her today.
OK – I got 7, and several others would have fit, if worded slightly differently. Been married 20 years – I had no idea what was going on until recently, I just thought that’s the way it was with women. Don’t know what I will do – will take a major hit with a divorce and I am not that young to start over, but what the hell. What made me reply to your post was the comment about accusing your friends of being gay – she pulled that crap on me. LOL – what a joke.
I do everything and I make all the money. And we have no sex. My question is, what do I get out of this – answer: nothing. I do feel sorry for her though, because she is screwed up. Good luck to everyone on here.
Don’t be stupid like me, don’t waste your life away. Get out now while you still can.
good call doc, i feel that now every day even after five years of the abuse, i say what i feel now , don’t have to edit my conversation with anyone. my kids are still too young i feel to bring new woman over so I just golf and have dinner with ladies when I’m alone. What age do you think it’s appropriate to introduce a new woman into childrens lives. of course the wife has had many men over and the kids have seen many movies at the theater at their expense, this is confusing them but at least they see what i see and will make the right choice hopefully when they are older. Thanks for your forum as it is saving lives,not just bad times but actually making men healthier by the minute.
Coming Out of The Fog says
I had a buddy that when I would ask him how he was doing, he would reply, “I’m looking forward to death.” Now he has a terminal illness, a long drawn out terminal illness. He was hospitalized for weeks at a time. I would ask him if his wife visited. He said she did a couple of times a week, but she was busy.
Be carefull with the divorce option. The courts have an extream bias towards women and you could lose bigger then you ever imagined. My best advice is to plan any divorce you intend on initiating carefully with a lawyer before you ever mention it to your wife.
I am deffinently in a bad situation. I could answer yes to a lot of them not so much the stalker stuff. definitely not getting sex which is extremely hard for me to deal with as she cheated on me a few years back.Now I feel I’m becoming crazy. my situation is a little different as we have 2 kids together house and 8 years of a relationship but I’m not married. and I’m only 25. I can’t leave because I don’t want to give up on all that I have accomplished let me repeat the I have accomplished. and being only 25 it hasn’t been easy to support a family and accomplish the things I have especially with her fighting every step of the way. don’t understand why she cant sit back and enjoy the ride quietly. Also not sure how that would
legally work out. definitely couldn’t
afford the child support thing and
obviously with her there would be no
working it out.
Glad i’m not the only one who has thought that cancer would be better than a relationship with a crazy ass woman. There have been nights where I have went to sleep hoping and praying that I wouldn’t wake up the next day. Thats how you know your wife is insane, where death is the only way out of the marriage and you fully accept it.
Death is not the only way out. You can leave. Even if you have children, you can leave. If the choices are divorce or death, choose divorce. You just may find you have a reason for living once you’re away from the source of your misery.
wow lol just read this comment after my first divorce and onto my second marrage and this is hillarious because ive jumped out of the frying pan into the fire with this one lol
Steve O says
answered yes t o l i p s t i c k as well. omg
I knew it and I wish I came across this site earlier. My wife displays most of these signs other than the red lipsticks. Talk about pathological jealousy .. today I suggested to an old lady who was the owner of a grocery store we shopped at, that it was cold and she should get a small heater …. my wife lost it and called me a disgusting bastard and accused me of chatting up another women! My conversation was less than 5 sentences about the weather and a heater.
It’s been 3 years now of living hell and being cut off from my family and friends 🙁
I can answer yes to at least 8 she has driven me from my family and hates all my friends and throws shit fits if I want to go have a guys weekend. I’m accused of horrible things by her and told I’m worthless lazy and a gd fat ass almost weekly. Except the ups and downs are over now we seem to be on a downward plung. If only I didn’t find her so sexuall but I will survive. She has to go.
Forgot to add that what really upset me was because of the conversation about the weather and a heater, my wife threatended to abort our unborn child (only 3 months) and apparently it is *my* baby not hers.
That’s awful. Unfortunately, once you have a child with a woman like this, you’re pretty much screwed in that she will continue to use your son or daughter as a device to control, manipulate and hurt you. This is only the beginning. What are you going to do or have you resigned yourself to this life?
Can they medication for this?
name is irrelevant says
this is my life except i will not marry her, she wont leave, she hates my family because of what color outfit they got for my daughters bday claiming it was a puke green color and that they purposely buy our daughter boy colored clothes when in fact it is a girls outfit. stupid how my brother has a baby 6 months after us and to my girl its all about what baby gets what and what color it is. so dumb. and now im in a tough rut. shes tellin me shes goin to change my babies last name if she leaves, shes going to move far away. ruin my under the table job for me. everything to ruin my life if i get her to leave me. im miserable everyday since my daughters first bday. 7 months later im still hearing crap about how my sick mother didnt make it to the party, but made it for the second born granddaughter. i think who cares but with my girlfriend, everything is on purposely done and my family hates my daughter, which is definitely not true but in her mind , the stupidest things mean you hate an innocent baby. Im a laidback kinda guy that doesnt like to start problems and hopes they blow over. but with my girl problems from years ago are always broughten up over and over and over again.
I wish sometimes I had the money for a lawyer and knew what steps i had to take so i could at least have joint custody of my daughter. its just ridiculous the way my girlfriend thinks. Oh my bad my FIance thinks. If i tell ppl she is my girlfriend i get bitched at for that. i mean its just ridiculous. I get texted at work 60-70 texts bitching about my family . Insane , the mental abuse i go thru.
And as soon as we get in argument she goes into bedroom with our daughter and sits with her back against door so i cant get in. NOw the last time i got tired of hearing my daughter crying so after a while i pushed door and of course my fiance pushed it back as hard as she could. It was like a tug of war battle just to get door open.
i had to open door theres no toys or anything for my daughter to do in my room besides go thru boxes of paperwork and destroy the room, cause theres no way my fiance was going to move from blockin door.
So anyway i got door open a smidge after the tug of war battle, and now my fiance is saying i hit her with door, and her back hurts and I am abusive.
she scares me, and posts on facebook to the world i abuse her, when really she is nuts in the head and only thinks a one way path.
and oh yeah forgot to mention this fact too, that her mother is bipolar also. so i think maybe genetically there could be something wrong and i really need to get outta this relationship or im doomed for life. ill probably end up in jail for flickin her on the wrist , its that bad.
please god or whoever , help me give me the strength to survive and be with my daughter i love her soo much and im being told now im a sperm donor. and yes thats what my fiance is telling my 1.5 yr old.
too much in my life to say, i would take a giant book with all the crap ive been put thru.
Shirley loves Steve says
My heart goes out to you. Start a journal and document everything. Next, apply for legal aid. If you qualify….meaning you don’t own much of anything and your income is below a certain amount, you will get a lawyer to represent you in family court. Take her to court for joint custody. Every separation or divorce is ugly in it’s own way but look around you. Everyone gets over it. If legal aid is not available where you live, go to the courthouse and ask them how to start a custody case. You can actually do it yourself. You don’t even have to leave her to do this. Just explain to her that this is in the case that something happens between you, considering the problems in your relationship. If she freaks….call the cops out of concern for your child and document it. She will probably cite abuse as a reason you should not have custody.
My wife exhibits these first two on the list:
Does she fly into rages without warning over relatively trivial matters like a web page loading too slowly?
Are you always the scapegoat/bad guy whenever she’s frustrated, disappointed or just plain bored?
And doesn’t really exhibit any of the other characteristics (although I admit that I am often nervous that she will be inappropriate in front of others). I am trying to figure out what to do about it. I guess my question is, if she is an angry and over-emotional person at times (like 2 to 3 times a week), would you still recommend getting out of the relationship? Thanks.
Boy oh boy, did I experience quite a “deja vu” reading your post. And I think I figured out #1…the “trivial” stuff is what gets them going because it’s quick and easy–just like a TRIGGER! Whereas important stuff, like a discussion of finances, is avoided because CALM, rational talk is necessary. Here’s a simple example…
I’ve been unemployed for quite a few months, thanks to the economy. If I go to Home Depot and spend $20 on something NEEDED for the house, I get the 3rd degree, “we don’t have the extra money”, etc. Yet, she’ll think nothing of blowing $100 on some “chotchkies” (definition: worthless knick-knacks). Or, she’ll send an extra hundred or two on credit card bills…not that reducing them isn’t important, but, at a time like this, we really can’t do it! But, again, it’s that CONTROL thing-do as I say, not as I do.
With regard to #2, yep, you’re always to blame…get stuck in traffic, it’s YOUR fault you went the way you did. Circumstances are meaningless, you are the problem.
You say you’re nervous in public with her…ah, the classic “walking on eggshells”. And yes, even if you don’t wind up the target of her detonation, you’re sure to be embarrassed by her behavior.
I don’t have enough information to advise you one way or the other. I encourage you to read more posts here and from other resources and see if it continues to resonate.
Maybe she just has an anger management problem. Or, perhaps, she has bigger issues.
Sorry I’m not able to provide more insight.
holy shit, i answered yes to more than half of them. here’s the next step…how the hell do i get OUT of this relationship?
Is this a rhetorical question or do you really want to know?
Dr T, I second Scott’s question. I don’t think of that as rhetorical. I’d REALLY like to know some specifics. I can’t wrap my mind around the ‘break-up talk.’ Scares me to death. I’m not suffering physical violence or fearing for my safety (though a little voice does tell me to be careful), so when is it ok to just leave? Leave a note. Seems cowardly to me, but I entertain those thoughts.
Kent Kent Kent! Cowardly? man o man I would call it heroic…leaving a note. Ya always hear of the guy who just went out for a loaf of bread or a pack of cigarettes and was never heard from again. Imagine the restoration of self esteem that would trigger. I guess tho, you could keep dickin around until your like me…..15 years of wasted life….I’m finally free from the shedevil. Many regrets for not leaving after the first whacky episode.
mr tall says
As I keep reading through these comments I just feel more and more like this is my situation. Sometimes I want to leave but feel like I can’t because I’d basically have to wait until she’s gone (stay at home wife who doesn’t do the housework) and then get everything I care about keeping out otherwise she’ll destroy it , I can’t kick her out with no place to go, and then i’d be afraid of her breaking in later, or she’s expressed suicidal tendencies before, i guess when i consider leaving i get overwhelmed with everything. at the same time i don’t know how much more of this i’ll put up with to be with a woman i love (i thought unconditionally), i think i need help but don’t know if i should go to a psycologist or the police
Ive answered yes to most of these questions. The scary part about this is that i am so in love with her that i struggle to break away from this. She keeps saying that because i wont commit to her that she has every right to be like this, and if we were in a relationship, she would be a lot different. Could this be true? I seriously doubt it after reading these posts. She also has this sexual knot on me that i cant seem to let go of. Im a man after all and i have desires.
mr tall says
they get worse after marriage, because now they feel they’re entitled to treating you worse, after all it would take alot more for a divorce than a breakup.
They get MUCH WORSE after marriage because the system is slanted to benefit them. Trust me, the canard of “men won’t commit” is a ruse to convince men to enter into binding contracts with the mentally insane. RUN BROTHER! God bless.
Genius! Well said!
GET THE HELL OUT NOW!!!!!!! My wife will not believe that I love her. I’m 5 years in and my story (as far as HELL on earth craziness) is nothing less than extraordinary. I have had most of the items on this list, and it feels far more not even mentioned. Blame is always the name of the game, and it’s not her, it’s you (us), men etc. I’ve gotten better, she’s gotten worse. Just saw this site today in desperation cause I told her 2 days ago I want a divorce, I want you to move out, I will not explain, it is not negotiable. After 5 years of seeing through her insecurity and her bullshit, she admits shes the problem, but this is only been her behavior as I’m about out the door. LOOOONNNNNNGGGGG story short, it is not your fault if she refuses to deal with her own insecurity. No matter what you do, now matter how far, she will accuse you, she will judge you, she will fuck with your mind until it’s gone if you let her. Don’t get sucked in. If you really love her. Get real, get counsel, and work this shit out starting tonight with support so that whatever issues ( hurts, fears, insecurities ) get dealth with in mature order. Or else, like my case, they will not change, they will only grow more unbearable, become even more unreasonable, and even harder to “solve”. Bottom line, you can’t do her, you can only do you. You’ve still got the freedom to choose what you will tolerate and why. There is no law against love. But true love will not allow abuse, no matter where it’s coming from or where it’s going. Don’t get sucked in.
By the by, if this has no bearing in your situation, appologies, but beware it could very well be the case. Find out before you proceed, or risk ending up like so many miserable men, wishing against reason for death due to one HELL of a reltaionship. Nuff said!?
Dave Diaz says
Oh my god, I knew what I was dealing with was BS. My gut always told me I am doing nothing wrong and I would get angry. Then I would just think to myself, well, now you just have to deal with this until the kids get older. What a way to live, dreading almost every day except spending time with the kids. I love my kids so much 4 1/2 and 17 months. Why just last Monday I was helping at our church to move into a new building, she knew I was there, cleaning up, moving chairs, painting, etc. Then when I got home @ 8:30 got the cold shoulder. Then she woke me up at 11:30 to argue about why I was there so long. So as every other time trying to “CLEAR UP” what I was doing helping at a church mind you, she says she is moving out on Saturday.
Well she has used leaving with the kids in the past as a way to get what she wants. I have since snapped Tuesday and basically told her not to wait until Saturday to move out. My gosh, I was helping at our church. I can never do anything right, like I’m never spending time with my friends, then when I do I’m in trouble. I have been blamed for having an affair, I have been blamed for not ever wanting to go out to eat, I have been blamed for so many things, its hard to keep track.
The few days of her moving out she is already telling me I can’t see my girls. This sucks, I don’t know what to do, my emotions are all over the board. I heard a little toddler talking at the store and I wanted to cry. I hate this.
The crazyness started at the start of the relationship, I should have went with my gut feelings back then.
I am seeing a counselor provided by my work tomorrow because I don’t know what to do. I used to be so happy go lucky and high self esteem never needing a counselor in the past, and this woman has brought me to my knees.
Oh, and I answered yes to way to many of those.
I need a hug.
You need to contact some father’s rights organizations and find yourself an attorney who specializes in this. As awful as she was to you while you were together, if she’s already threatening you with your kids this early on, you need to protect yourself as best as you can. Have you spoken with your family and friends about what’s going on? I’d give them a head’s up because your ex is sure to make the rounds badmouthing you to anyone who will listen.
I’m very sorry to read about what you’ve been going through. It’s not right. Does anyone else who’s been in a similar situation have advice for Dave?
Yeah, I’ve got some advice for Dave. After he gets his hug-grow some testicles. She will beat him to death with the kid threats because she knows it is the only way to rip him apart. What would I do? I’d tell her that I want the divorce done as quickly as possible and just tell me where to send the child support checks. I’ll see the kids when their 18. Yeah, Sure, it’s an unrealistic bluff (for him) but if done correctly it would turn her on her heels within a week! This blasted game with the kids in the middle only works because WE AS MEN LET IT! What ensues is years of paying child support while trippin over her latest weiner to see our kids. I say SCREW it! Have a nice life lady! In my case I mean it. Ten to 16 years goes by fast. Those kids will be well aware of what a wack their mother is by 18. They will be more than willing to have a relationship with their REAL DAD by that point. I’m dead serious. Pull the rug out! Or at least run the bluff….ya can always reverse course.
A threat to keep you from your children is a declaration of war. It is cruel and dirty.
Go straight to the toughest lawyer you can find. Do not pass Go, Do Not Collect $200.
Dave I feel for you. Sounds exactly like my wife, you can NEVER do anything right in her eyes. I have not contacted ANY of my friends since my relationship with my wife (then girlfriend) for 5 years now. I only see my parents/family about once a month. If i try to see them more often, or even try calling, its all hell break loose.
If I go to a shop and the shop assistant is female, I’m accused of wanting to have an affair with that shop assistant even if I just say “Thank you”. If I got to a restaurant and I look a waitress in the eyes while ordering, my wife storms out of the place accusing me of wanting an affair or chatting up.
Then she tells me I dont take her out – you guess why!?
Now that I am always sitting at home, just yesterday she saw my playing an online war game that allowed me to chat with other players. All hell broke lose and again, I am accussed of flirting with girls. I told her to read my text conversations and her answer was she refuses to read it, if I’m not flirting just then, I was before or will in the future.
I KNOW it is not me. I was raised in a healthy, normal family. I had strong friendships and high self esteem and was always positive in outlook on life. But these days, I keep feeling bitter and starting to think dying is better if not for my ageing parents and our yet to be born baby.
These days, I am too afraid to even take a walk, or put out the garbage without letting her know in case she accuses me of seeing somebody in my few minutes of absence.
I pray to God every night for an answer, but there’s none forthcoming, at least that I can understand.
Divorce is a better option than death. Protecting yourself and preserving your sanity does NOT, I repeat, NOT make you a bad guy. Another reader, John, posted recently how there is a double standard in that women who divorce abusive husbands are viewed as heroic; whereas men divorce abusive wives are viewed as spineless deserters and slimeballs.
Given this popular distortion, I think it is far more courageous for men to make this choice because they receive far less support and become the recipients of further abuse by family law and the courts.
I encourage you to stop praying to God and consult with a good attorney. Do you want to spend the next 18 years of your life like this? You owe it to yourself and to your unborn child to be a strong, healthy and happy man and parent.
Just my 2-cents.
I used to work with a woman who I now recognise as major BPD, anyway her boyfriend was not allowed to even look at another woman, no matter who, even if the woman is talking to him. She did this to him & her housemate, a much older lady anyway, & he made the grave error of looking at his girlfiend’s housemate whilst they were conversing & that was it. She was wild, he was in the dog house! Unbelievable & we found out later she was hitting on our boss around the same time! She wore the bright lippy too!
To add to the story (it was number of yrs ago), it wasn’t only that the boyfriend couldn’t look at other women. Her housemate told me the 3 of them were having a few drinks socialising at their place at a table, & the boyfriend had to CONSTANTLY have his eye balls on his gf ‘admiring her’ even when said housemate is talking to him! She said she had to talk to the back of his head most the night! He looked at the housemate for a few moments once, & that spelled the end of their evening! This woman, as I say made a play for the boss who’s partner told us about it. She told the boss they’d be great together they’re both ‘so powerful’ how deluded she was! This same woman caused utter chaos in our office. Ended up fired for being so bitchy, competitive, jealous, etc. Unbelievable, she eavesdropped on me confiding to a coworker that I was uncomfortable facing her in a sales contest the next day I had no choice in & my misgivings about her conduct, & I got daggers from her for weeks! Crazy stuff. She came to our super casual work parties dressed up like you wouldn’t believe with brightest lipstick.
The reason I came here was due to my partner of 10 years displaying BPD signs, however I realise now his symptoms are nothing compared to his psycho mother who only 1 out of her 4 kids will even speak to. She totally damaged their trust in women & humans in general & to this day will not even admit the things & cruel behaviour she committed. This stuff really affects people long-term. I realise my partner displays the signs but is also reasonable & can admit it. But he has some responses ingrained due to his childhood.. If I had his family life growing up with her, wow I don’t know how I’d have coped.. Constant drama, blaming ,denial, conflict non-stop. He stopped all contact with her when she started picking on me behind my back for no reason at all, other than I wasn’t ‘good enough’ for her son. I was too skinny & her other son’s partner was too fat!
THIS B I G HUG to you Dave from cold England : )
Don`t worry, she`ll soon get fed up with the kids and want you around babysitting.
PS for some reason these people with BS etc are VERY VERY selfish!
i small piece of advice, leave now! I mean run now! I did what you said, stayed for the kids and now they are teenagers. She has the kids wrapped around her finger and when i decided i had enough which has been so many times, the kids blame me for not saying sorry to whatever the problem with their mother is. I mean, the kids don’t care that she is wrong, they just me to fix it. I was kicked out last year and i rented an appartment and my wife said to my kids and everyone she knows that i abandoned them. The kids wanted nothing to do with me.tried calling everyday, when i would text them i would get told off. when i confronted her about the kids attitudes her answer was “i can’t control how they think”, makes me sick. i eventually went back because she was suicidal and drinking everyday and was begging me to go back and things would change. 1 week after i went back, the same routine continued. And the frosting on the cake, my kids are emotionally scarred and look at me as i’m the bad guy.
Damn Dave, are we married to the same woman? I don’t know how many times I’ve been doing something completely innocent and good, like you were doing at your church and then I get my balls busted when I get home. And what is it with the big discussions right when you’re falling asleep? She loves to do that, I guess because I am out of it and can’t think clearly. I hope you were able to get out of that sham of a marriage and keep your kids. I’m headed toward the same road soon.
You’re more vulnerable when you’re tired. Also, depriving you of sleep weakens you, which also makes you an easier target. Also, it seems like many of the ones who engage in “midnight feeding frenzies” are also SAHMs. They’re at home all day, while you’re out working, inventing reasons to be aggrieved, then they clobber you with it when you’re trying to wind down from the day. An excellent reason for these women to go out in the world and do something productive, like, say, get a job.
Shirley loves Steve says
I think the quiz actually leaves out a few important points. a) Does she refuse to get an outside job? b) Does she exaggerate medical symptoms for herself or the kids? c) The lipstick may not be crooked but the makeup is overdone. d) Does she purposely make herself dependent on others, eg. refusing to learn to drive?
Anyway, to all of you men that choose to stay with her for whatever reason. Your assets will increase and those in Ontario are entitled to half your assets, and half your income. She will find another sucker and take your money anyway, as long as she can. My guy’s X is taking home more than he is what with support and the new sucker’s income. He bought her a nice house….lol and she never had a job outside the home for more than 18 years with 2 children ten years apart. She napped every day and had to be home for Jerry Springer. The oldest child is an adult at 23 and she has turned him against his Dad, even though she screwed around on him. Go figure. To this day, if I say something that Steve perceives as criticism, he gets totally defensive and we may end up arguing. An unexpected phone call from me during the day, has his guts clenching and his pulse racing as he wonders what new catastrophe is in store for him. I know that everyone has their own baggage but my guy is so damaged by this woman that it interferes with us. Guys, get out before this woman damages both you and your children irreparably. Trust me. You don’t want to see your daughter turn into her, and on your own, you can provide an example that will offset the poison coming from the other side.
Thanks for the feedback Mike911. I have a question for you and everyone. I dated my wife for 3 years before marriage and have been married for about a year. At this point she wants to have kids and I also would like children. But before I read this site I had a nagging feeling about how appropriate it would be for her to raise children with an anger problem. She even admits that she has an anger problem and says she is trying to control it but simply cannot sometimes. When I read the above I guess she is a crazy bitch if I need to ask the question as Dr. T says. But really she only has the first two issues going on and the quiz says she is a crazy bitch if she has more than 2 of the characteristics. Quite the opposite actually exists for me. She is very good about sex. She likes when I spend time away because she wants me to do what I want. She doesn’t hold any grudge about it. Etc. etc. She just has a crazy inexplicable anger problem and I am often the blame for her anger even when it makes no rational sense.
So here goes the question I am having at this time: Do I have kids with her?
Reading all of the comments I think I am walking into a mine field. I wonder if others guys were like me in that their wife/girlfriend only had the anger problem and later developed into the psycho exhibiting all the other problems on this list? I grew up in a relatively stable family and am not used to all these fights/problems. I need help/insight!
I would suggest that if you’re going to stay with this woman and if you’re going to have children with her that she address her anger issues before conception. First, if you have any doubts re: staying with this woman, you probably want to think long and hard about kids. Second, her anger issues won’t get better on their own after you have a child, they’ll get worse. Kids are stressful and exhausting, which will shorten your wife’s already short fuse considerably. Saying, “I need to work on my anger problem” and doing something about it aren’t the same thing.
RF, do some more reading. There are other posts on this site. Read the ones about professional victimhood, emotional bullies, and 13 signs of being an NPD/BPD. To see if she’s really serious about working on her issues, tell her you want to see a therapist with her. Calmly explain you have some concerns re: having kids because of the conflict in your relationship and aren’t comfortable with starting a family until you both understand whats going on. Try to be as gentle and non-blaming as possible. If she flips out on you again, it doesn’t bode well for things to come.
Meanwhile, make sure she’s using birth control or you take responsibility. This is usually when “accidents” happen.
I stumbled onto your website. You have given some very helpful and insightful information. I answered Yes to 6 of these questions.
Its still hard for me to imagine my wife as a BPD because she seems so passive aggressive. But then again I’ve always compared my wife to her sister, who is a truly obnoxious, histrionic, berating and self-centered slob. My wife (soon to be ex) reacts more by sulking and withdrawing affection. I’ve felt like I had to walk on eggshells around her for years, as nothing I did was enough. Just having her out of the house for the past 4 weeks has been liberating. Not coming home and worrying and stressing about what I need to do for her , “is it ok for me to go play my guitar?”, or is she going to get mad because I’m not sitting in the room with her while she watches one of her shows on TV despite being disengaged from me – freedom from this is great.
The guy who divorced her sister told me that it was like an anvil being removed from around his neck when he obtained the divorce. That he was married to a “real woman” now and life is great.
I’m actually going through the divorce right now . . . . you’re website is very helpful with moving forward and seeing some of the things I should not have put up with, but did, for over 10 years.
Thanks for the positive feedback and congratulations on removing your “anvil.” I’m sure you’ll get through the divorce process, with all its ups and downs, and appreciate your new found freedom. Once you’re finally rid of her, you’ll wonder why you waited so long.
I have a friend whose ex didn’t like it when he played the piano to relax after a stressful day. He’s apologetic about his piano playing, thanking me for “tolerating it” and “letting him” play. I love music and think it’s a gift to have it in my life. It just goes to show how sick and abusive these women are that they can’t stand it when you express your creativity and take care of or uplift yourself. They want to anchor you down in the barren wasteland with them.
Thanks again, John. I wish you the best with your new lease on life minus the ex-wife!
Thanks for the encouragement. We have two girls. I’ve read a lot of posts from guys worrying about their children. One thing I’ve learned in the past 10 weeks: the time I’ve had with my kids since this started is ten times the quality time than when my wife was around and constantly undermining me.
Whatever time you have with your children after the divorce is going to be more time with them than when you were married !!!
One thing I’m trying to come to grips with is how I let my wife treat me the way she has for so long. If someone was “coming at me” I would normally not back down from a fight or an argument. With her, she would never address anything I said substantively. I was always being told my “tone” was bad. My facial expressions were “like a kick in the stomach to her.” I remember her one time telling me that I never said anything bad, but it was the way I said it. She has had me trying to behave in a “non-defense provoking, corporate-like” manner at home for several years now.
First of all, I’m not an obnoxious, cantankerous, bullying litigator but a rather calm and quiet regulatory attorney – I don’t go to court and argue cases. I finally started to defend myself against some of her complaints – the response was “there you go again, throwing it back at me.” I could never win. She had me thinking I was crazy, an extremely difficult person to be around, and needed therapy. I ended up calling and talking to some of my friends just to ask if I’m really that difficult a person to get along with. The self doubt and self-questioning I put myself through has been very painful.
Keep up the great work. You are giving more help to people than you probably realize.
After reading your posts I see a similarities between your soon to be ex and my wife.
I wonder if she might be BPD because she seems to fit the criteria but, absent the narcissistic rage. She is more likely to act like she doesn’t care whether I’m around. She’ll ignore me and spend hours watching TV or reading. This past month after I spend 5 days in Michigan, visiting my family and hunting, she barely acknowledged me when I got home. She instead talked on the phone all evening. When later questioned her about that, she said she didn’t recall acting that way that evening.
She seems to go through cycles of days or weeks where she will be cold and distant. If I ask her how she is doing your response will be a sharp “I’m fine”. If I try to kiss here she turns away from me. Then the next day she’ll be affectionate with me, sometimes to the point of being clingy.
Things can seem fine and then something will happen, I’ll say or do something that she doesn’t like, and then like flipping a switch, back to cold and distant.
I really get the feeling that I’m married to two different women. On the good days or weeks, I feel loved and am optimistic about working things out. The bad days or weeks are very lonely and it like she doesn’t care anymore.
She wasn’t always like this (or I didn’t notice. Love can blind a man.) It seems to have developed and become more acerbated over the 11 years we’ve been together. Looking back now, I can see it progress in her actions and words.
Anyway, without going into all the details, I’d really like to know, from the readers and Dr. T, are there other disorders/conditions that share similarities with BPD that develop and become worse over time?
Can some be like a BPD without being having BPD? Would that affect the way one should deal with that individual and the likelihood of healing the relationship with that person? Is she just a High-Functioning BPD?
Also, for John specifically, did your wife’s BDP-ness seem to become progressively worse over time or was it also there?
Again, John thanks your posts. Dr. T, thanks for the blog.
It’s interesting how you come to this site and see posts by other guys and see a lot of the same thing over and over. It’s a great eye-opener to see that you aren’t alone and that the problems in your marriage really are not 100 percent your fault.
“Also, for John specifically, did your wife’s BDP-ness seem to become progressively worse over time or was it also there?”
Honestly, I don’t think my X is BPD (my divorce was finalized on 9/10). Sure some of her behaviors fall into the above descriptions listed by Dr. T. However, when I read the definition and diagnostic criteria of BPD I think of psychotic, over-the-top wacko devoid of reality, and she is not that. However, I could probably add a seventh because she did have this strange preoccupation with red lipsticks and would talk about her “lips” when referring to getting her red lipstick on. No kidding!!
I do believe she is a narcissist and was emotionally abusive to me. A therapist has unambiguously told me that she is a narcissist and her treatment of me was emotionally abusive and emasculating. That, the confirmation I’ve received from this site, and also talking to my family and friends (is that consensus seeking?) are enough validation for me. For me personally, I don’t feel a compelling need plug my X into a specific cluster B personality disorder to come to grips with the demise of our marriage. I did a lot of journaling; writing many of the things down that she did, talking about it with a therapist and family, comparing it to the blogs and posts on this site, and I realized how bad the marriage and treatment of me was. I don’t recall where I read this, but someone wrote something about the golden rule in reverse. Is your wife treating you the way you would treat someone else? I know mine didn’t. I’ve also learned to look in the mirror and understand that I let her act that way to me; a mistake I’m determined not to make in the future.
To answer your question more directly, I’m not sure she became “worse.” I think I became more and more drained to the point where I couldn’t give anymore. The marriage just deteriorated and once she decided it was over – it was over. I think she was all take and no give, so when I hit that point she was done. That is what she told me: “I’m done.” She never came out and said she wanted a divorce. She initiated and started the process. I had thought for years I would wait until my girls were 18 and then I would just file and have her served. She truly did me a favor; I clearly see that now. I look at some of the pictures of me over the past year (I’ve started dating and was looking for some pictures to put on an online site) and I think I look flipping crazy in some of them. It’s frankly disturbing.
Your wife’s behavior sounds very strange to me. She sounds very cold and unaffectionate. I never really thought of my X as flipping an affection switch on or off, but it is an accurate analogy. Do you have any children? I think a lot my X’s anger had to do with an inability to cope with parenting. It was as if she was just angry like a spoiled brat because she actually had to work and was not going to be taken care of by her mother now that she had children and was married. I was always jumping through hoops because whatever I did was never enough. She literally was furious that I did not get a six figure a year job so that she could stay home and not work. I think she wanted me to mother her and essentially be a co-wife. Whenever I didn’t do something or enough of whatever the hell she wanted, she would pout, sulk and withdraw. I remember her yelling at me one time “do I have to yell at you like I’m your mother in order to get you to do what I want you to do.” My X primarily sulked, pouted and withdrew affection, but I have received many ass-chewings too. Many were just bizarre and completely out of the blue. I still can’t believe I put up with that crap.
Does your wife do anything else to mess (f&%^) with you? I think many have experienced the denial of saying things, changing their stories, “twisting words like crazy pretzels.”
Does your wife have any empathy for you? For example, I have a bad back and herniated a disc 17 years ago. I stay in shape, workout and stretch regularly, which is how I keep healthy. I don’t have to take pain pills. Typically 2 or 3 times a year I will do something; pick weeds, bend over and pick up a toy or tool, twist the wrong way, and boom I’ll have spasms for 1 or 2 days. I’d sit in the recliner and use the heating pad, take some ibuprofen, stretch and get over it in a couple of days. But for one or two days I’m not jumping through hoops – now I’m not an invalid, but I’m in pain and I want and need to sit in my chair and crank the Thermafore heating pad. X would get really pissed at that and complain. “When are you going to be better? What did you do? Why did you do that? You are always doing this or you are sick? When is this going to be over, it’s making my job with the children more difficult.” The pouting, sulking and dirty looks would come on strong. Summer before last, I was really stressed by her as she wanted me to get a 6-figure job so she could stay home and not work. I was having more episodes, and even muscle spasms in my chest. Dr. T has a blog about this crap affecting you physically – I think its true. X had virtually no empathy. Nothing. Her servant was not serving and she was pissed. I can’t imagine telling my X when she was sick, having allergies, or cramps “when are you going to get better? I’m having to watch the kids, it’s making my home time difficult and I’m not getting to play my guitar.”
I’ll tell you what though, it’s great to get your “man card” back. Some of my buddies have been jacking me about that – this is a good thing brother. I went hunting in South Texas last weekend and it was GREAT! I did not worry about getting back early in order to make sure I smoothed things over because she watched the kids for two days. No pouting or that cold, distant, forlorn look on her face. That “poor me, I’m a sacrificing victim” demeanor because she was with the children for two days. Oh and the hunting was good too! Now that deer season has started, I’m going again.
Recovering Alpha says
I know it’s many many mohths past on this blog, but rereading these articles is sometimes helpful. When I came across this,
“I’ve also learned to look in the mirror and understand that I let her act that way to me; a mistake I’m determined not to make in the future.”
it HIT HOME HARD. This is where I’m stuck on right now. My divorce finalized March 2010. What I’ve been dealing with is how I could have allowed such bad behavior to me FOR SO LONG AND ALMOST RIGHT FROM THE START? What is wrong with me? Normally I don’t allow people — male or female — to mistreat me. Something about the sexual nature of that relationship I think provided the environment for me to tolerate the CONTINUALLY WORSENING treatment over 18 years. I guess that’s what I need to figure out for me personally. Maybe others of you have been through this and have some pointers.
holy crap…..ditto …I feel like you,I was just drained at the end,she sensed it told and her her big quotes were”we love each other but were not in love”,”Im done””Own my half….”the last one cracked me up/baffled me the most…I honestly tried loving her til the end and I even asked for 6 more months(but then it hit me…Ive given all I could..)and if anyone was done it was me…according to her..I never “maxed out” on all of the potential I had,I wasnt passionate enough for her,etc…this site and stories /comments are amazing…Im divorced 3+months and some of the crap/physical/mental abuse I took….what the hell happened??????
Thanks for putting so much effort into your post. Your words are truly a mirror to my own experience. I had fusions done in my neck and I remember her being pissed at my recovery rate….as for getting the man card back…nothing like 5 days in Cancun-my particular celebration!
We don’t have any children. We did try but lost the baby at the beginning of the year. We had issues when we went to visit my family at Thanksgiving (she was pregnant then) which ended with her wanting a divorce and demanding that I drive her to the airport or else she’d walk there in the snow. She eventually drove back from Michigan in a rental car by herself and still states that I made her do it. The next two months were rough. Her mother past away then we lost the baby. We haven’t tried again because I insisted that we start marriage consoling again and work through our issues.
I fear that if we have a child and get divorced, I will have to fight to be a part of its life. She always referred to it as “her baby” even after I repeatedly asked her to say “our baby”. When we were about to go into her doctors for the second ultrasound, she felt the need to remind me that if she wanted she could have the doctor not allow me in the room for the ultrasound and not let me see the results.
We’d been to two marriage consolers before the pregnancy both of whom, she didn’t like. We stopped going to the second consoler because my wife wanted a separation. After we left the consolers office, she changed her mind.
She has stated she wanted a divorce several times over the past four years. I’d fight to keep her and the harder I tried the meaner she got, cursing and insulting me. When I’d give up and say yes, she’d change her mind.
Finally, after another round of her wanting a divorce and then changing her mind when I said ok, I wrote her a letter telling her what I needed to make our relationship work. Part of that was that the next time she wanted a divorce, she would be it. She hasn’t said it sense although, she have been very negative about our relationship. Even when things seem to be going good and we are having a good time, she’ll make a comment about how we never have a good time together or about how we won’t make it.
My wife does say things to mess with me. An example; when at therapy, the consoler asked use why we were still together. I said that it was because I loved my wife and was committed. She said she was still with me “because it’s convenient”. I later asked her about that she said she was just saying that to hurt me. When we were have a similar discussion between the two of us and she asked me why I was still with her, I gave the same response, and when I asked that same question to here, she said she was “letting it run its course”. When I asked why she never gives love as a reason for being with me she says that I should know that she loves me and that she shouldn’t have to say it.
A lot of the times after she says something that makes me think “WTF?, I’ll give her some space and try to bring it up at a later time. But, by the time she’s willing to talk she says she doesn’t remember it or that she’s over it by then. End of conversation.
It feels like she doesn’t apply the same standard to her behavior that she does to mine. She’ll make remarks about my mother in front of others but I can’t even ask her sister (who is no living with us) to not park on the grass without my wife telling me that that I’d better be polite when I do it. She can make fun where I’m from (Michigan) all she wants but I can’t say anything about where she is from (Haiti) without her getting defensive and argumentative.
She’ll often complain I don’t do something, such as house work, talking to her, my weight, taking her out, talking to her, etc. Once I make progress on the issue she is complaining of, she’ll start on the next.
One day, while she was complaining out us not going out enough, I suggested multiple things that we could together (Art exhibition, museum, movies, etc). She rejected my suggestion and later asked why I didn’t want to take her out.
As for empathy, it comes and goes with her affection. Sometimes should very caring but others she won’t. If I have a sore back and ask her for a back run she’ll respond, “What’s in it for me?” Other times it like she has to try uncaring. She’ll start to do something nice for me and then stop and say, “Why the hell am I doing that?”
She says that I don’t do anything for her but, every time I try to do something, she doesn’t want me to and usual says something along the lines of “No, you shouldn’t have to” or “It’s not your job”. When I do something (like fixing the toilet) and point it out to her, her response is that she never asked me to do it or that it doesn’t count because I something I should be doing anyways or that she could have hired somebody to do it.
She’ll often become angry or cold towards me if I spend more than a few hours with my friends or pursuing my hobbies. I.e. she’ll get mad when, once a month, I shot in a match at my gun club, which will last until about 2PM on a Sunday. On the day that I volunteered to enter the scores into the computer (at home), she kept asking when they were giving me for doing that and she said that I’d rather do that then spend time with her.
When we go out to my friends or see family, she is withdrawn and quiet. People ask me if there something wrong or if they said something to offend her. If it’s her friends and family, then she if very outgoing and talkative. When I asked her about this, she said that it was just the way she was and that I should learn to accept it.
I’ve been keeping a journal since January, to try to help me to sort things out. It’s interesting to see the way she transitions from cold & distant to the next day warm and friendly like nothing even happened.
Thanks for the feedback. Just writing this helps me to straighten things out in my mind.
David Lebrocq says
In one of your posts you said ‘I fear that if we have a child and get divorced, I will have to fight to be a part of its life’.
HERE IS WHY NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN WITH A BPD/NPD – I’m a living example.
Before I was locked out of the house last year my child was removed for a week and I was told to leave the house if I wanted to see my not yet 3 year old girl.
After I was locked out of the house some time later I had to go to court to gain any access at all after going 7 weeks and missing my daughter’s 3rd birthday – not even a phone call.
Before I had court ordered access my ex was telling everyone who would listen to her that I was a ‘flight threat’. Complete BS.
Since then I can not get any cooperation at all or any time other than the court ordered time with my now 4 year old.
I was unemployed this past summer and so I had plenty of time and saw my daughter a grand total of 12 days.
Recently I was told by my ex that ‘I’m getting all the access I am entitled to’.
My 4 year old daughter has made comments to me like – I have two dads now. I don’t have a home with you dad I just visit you I only have one home. And my favourite – dad, mom says all the stuff at my home is hers now. Still trying to figure out why she won’t return my underwear and winter boots.
I went at 2:45 pm to a 3:00pm Junior Kindergarten appointment and my ex was getting ready to leave – she had intentionally gone early to try to prevent me from seeing my daughter and participating in her education.
The other day dance class was canceled because the teacher was sick but even though my ex knows I drive 20km to go she didn’t call me to let me know. Of course as I am told biweekly – ‘I don’t have to do anything’.
I can not even get a phone call through to my daughter despite calling every weekend I don’t have her for almost a year now.
I could go on and on. And I won’t even get into the horrible BS that goes on in family court.
DO NOT HAVE A CHILD WITH THIS KIND OF WOMAN – DISASTER WAITING TO HAPPEN.
The joy is my daughter and I are closer than ever, my time with her is focused on her and we enjoy every second. I saw this crap coming and actually sacrificed work, my life to make sure I spent as much time with my little one and build a strong relationship.
Sadly at just over 4 years my daughter is already starting to resent her mother. I can’t imagine what things will be like when she is older – other than she will likely be living with her dad at 10 or 11.
Reading these comments from all you guys is making my blood boil and froth with venom. My wife and I have a one year old daughter… if the wife EVER pulls this s*** with me, manowar, there’s gonna be fireworks.
This is so sad. I used to enjoy music and arts. These days if I express that I like such things, my wife comes out with “why? Who are you seeing?”. I enjoy learning new things, new languages and when I comment on wanting to learn something new she’ll say “Why? Are you seeing someone or need to impress someone?”
WHY is she behaving like this? Read my other posts, WHY is she like this? I can’t understand it. If she is so insecure yet so controlling, what is the point of being in a relationship at all?
WHY is she behaving like this? Read my other posts, WHY is she like this? I can’t understand it. If she is so insecure yet so controlling, what is the point of being in a relationship at all?
A woman like your wife will only tolerate you having one interest; her. Friendships, family and leisure pursuits are seen as threats to her control and divert your complete attention away from her.
She doesn’t want a mutual relationship. She’s not capable of it. She wants and obedient handpuppet. Furthermore, even if you surrender your b@lls and totally submit to her dictates, she’ll then criticize you for having no backbone.
The only way to win is to stop playing. You need to make a choice about the kind of life you want and the kind of relationship you want to model for your child.
I just found these articles and my jaw is on the floor! All of this applies to my life! I had no idea what I should do and have been laboring over divorce for YEARS! This comment you just left really resonated with me. My daughter is musically inclined and has learned to play on her own. My wife frequently makes her STOP playing the piano because it upsets her peace. I look at her in awe not knowing how to respond. I am currently in a 4 day silence fight because she will not let my kids go with me on a 4 wheeling trip. I guess she hates my family… AHHH! How maddening!
I hear you! The silent treatment is the ultimate isolation technique. Dr. T says prepare, prepare and prepare before you go into divorce because she will probably become unhinged…then again they’re always unhinged so it’ll be like normal. My record is 45 days of the silent treatment but it was aided by me being out of town so that record should have an asterisk…8) Good luck.
My son is with a woman who exhibits all the above traits (except for the lipstick one). He thinks he is in control because he’s learned to walk away whenever she gets upset — which is more and more frequent. He barricades himself in his room downstairs with the door locked, goes for a walk, or to a movie. She had been reeling him back in with niceness or aking cookies, but I feel those times are waning. None of us in the family can figure out “why” he would want to stay in such an abusive woman who is jealous, manipulative, and who is always criticizing him or getting mad and going into a rage!! Interestingly enough, the more he blocks her out, the more she seems to try to get into a fight with him. They’re going to counseling, but she finds fault with that constantly and doesn’t want to go. I feel it’s a matter of time before she’ll refuse to go. She attacks everything about him and their relationship (or lack of a relationship!).
I’m sorry to read about what your son and your family is going through because of his girlfriend. She probably tries to fight with him when he blocks her out because many of these women use conflict and anger to hook you in. They accuse you of crazy things and you defend yourself, which only prolongs the insanity.
The only defense is to walk away and stay away. Unfortunately, I don’t think counseling will help. These women often use therapy to blame and shame their partners into submission with the help of a bad therapist. And, if you should happen to find a good therapist who holds this kind of woman, she finds fault with the therapist and stops going.
You have my sympathy and sincere wish that your son comes to his senses very soon.
I have 3 quick ones… they’re funny now since i’m out of the relationship, but they rattled around in my skull when they were happening.
1 – we’d be talking about some thing, and if my mindset was not completely in sync with hers (agreeing 100% with whatever she was saying), she’d snap at me, saying “don’t roll your eyes at me”. WTF? ummm…. i haven’t been 5 years old in a LONG time. trying to convince her that i kept eye contact the whole time, and that her accusation was completely unfounded, was like trying to teach calculus to a goldfish.
2 – so then the conversation would start to turn sour, and she’d accuse me of saying (x, y, z). of course i never said any of it, and would tell her so. so would then try to defend it, not even entertaining the possibility that she could have been mistaken. at which time i would calmly say, “no, i didn’t say that, not even close. you know how i know? because i’ve never even thought it”. at which point she would cross her arms and stare at the wall and pout… or fume.
3 – one night all of the planets aligned, and i got the opportunity to ask her that if i just simply gave in to anything she wanted and never stood my ground, would she would label me as a wimp and lose all respect for me as a man. and her answer was yes. i couldn’t beleive i actually got a thoughtful, insightful answer from her. but it was proof that no matter what i did, there would never be any peace.
the point of these snippets is that there never was a correct answer. i would be accused of being a heartless, self-centered bastard if i disagreed with her, or a complete wimp if i agreed with her. and it didn’t matter what i said, what stance i took in any given conversation or subject matter. she could have a sock puppet on her hand, call it my name, and i would take the brunt of a conversation that i was never a part of. it really was all in her head.
cue the circus music…
I had the exact same things happen to me with 1 and 2. I never tried #3.
The more I look back at these sorts of no-win scenarios, the more I’m convinced it was never about the answers (there are no right answers, as well you know), but more about her getting an attention fix. By bait and switch questioning, and the absence of right answers, she can play the game all night (and she often did, for nights in a row, despite knowing I had to go to work the next morning).
In addition to the attention you’re giving her, by playing these games, she gets the added benefits of (a) sapping all of your energy, and systematically destroying your defenses, and (b) getting you into a state of learned helplessness, where you become continuously more pliant.
Sometimes, I think it wasn’t even about her demands, but more about her enjoying the show of making her puppet dance.
Ah, good times.
they’re an attention junkie. the narcissistic supply really is like a drug. if they don’t get their fix, they act out, cause a scene, create falsehoods, manufacture drama, and then point the finger at everyone else but them. they will never take responsibility for the actions and words they use to manipulate. to them… the end justifies the means. it’s about winning at all costs, obtaining that fix. just like an addict… you can’t help them until they’re willing to help themselves. and if they don’t see it as any type of problem, then they will not change, no matter how devastating it is to them and to anyone that loves them. very sad but true…
for a guy that really cares deeply… it was a very tough lesson to learn.
Hi Kev and Freedom,
What these women do is far more toxic than putting you in a no-win, damned if you do-damned if you don’t situation. It’s a far more subversive variation called a double bind, a concept developed by anthropologist, Gregory Bateson:
“The double bind is often misunderstood to be a simple contradictory situation, where the victim is trapped by two conflicting demands. While it is true that the core of the double bind is two conflicting demands, the differences lie in how they are imposed on the victim, what the victim’s understanding of the situation is and finally, who (or what) imposes these demands upon the victim. Unlike the usual no-win situation, the victim is largely unaware of the exact nature of the paradoxical situation in which he or she is. The contradiction may be entirely invisible in its immediate context and therefore invisible to external observers, only becoming evident when some broader context is considered. Typically, a demand is imposed upon the victim by someone who they respect (a parent, teacher or doctor), but the demand itself is inherently impossible to fulfill, because some broader context forbids it. Bateson and colleagues defined the double bind as follows (paraphrased):
1. The situation involves two or more people, one of whom (for the purpose of definition), is designated as the “victim.” The others are people who are considered the victim’s superiors: figures of authority (such as parents), whom the victim respects.
2. Repeated experience: the double bind is a recurrent theme in the experience of the victim, and as such, cannot be resolved as a single traumatic experience.
3. A “primary injunction” is imposed on the victim by the others in one of two forms:
* (a) “Do X, or I will punish you”;
* (b) “Do not do X, or I will punish you.”
The punishment is assumed to be either the withdrawing of love, the expression of hate and anger, or abandonment resulting from the authority figure’s expression of helplessness.
1. A “secondary injunction” is imposed on the victim, conflicting with the first at a higher and more abstract level. For example: “You must do X, but only do it because you want to.” It is unnecessary for this injunction to be expressed verbally.
2. If necessary, a “tertiary injunction” is imposed on the victim to prevent them from escaping the dilemma.
3. Finally, Bateson states that the complete list of the previous requirements may be unnecessary, in the event that the victim is already viewing their world in double bind patterns. Bateson goes on to give the general characteristics of such a relationship:
1. When the victim is involved in an intense relationship; that is, a relationship in which he feels it is vitally important that he discriminate accurately what sort of message is being communicated so that he may respond appropriately;
2. And, the victim is caught in a situation in which the other person in the relationship is expressing two orders of message and one of these denies the other;
3. And, the victim is unable to comment on the messages being expressed to correct his discrimination of what order of message to respond to: i.e., he cannot make a metacommunicative statement.
Thus, the essence of a double bind is two conflicting demands, each on a different logical level, neither of which can be ignored or escaped. This leaves the victim torn both ways, so that whichever demand they try to meet, the other demand cannot be met. “I must do it, but I can’t do it” is a typical description of the double bind experience.
For a double bind to be effective, the victim must fail to see that the demand placed by the primary injunction conflicts with that of the secondary injunction. In this sense, the double bind differentiates itself from a simple contradiction to a more inexpressible internal conflict, where the victim really wants to meet the demands of the primary injunction, but fails each time through failing to see the situation’s incompatibility with the demands of the secondary injunction. Thus, victims may express feelings of extreme anxiety in such a situation, as they attempt to fulfill the demands of the primary injunction albeit with obvious contradictions in their actions.”
The fact that most of these women do this instinctively without premeditation is pretty frightening.
it was all quite silly when it was happening, but it wasn’t a damned bit funny.
Ouch I too agree. This was performed many times to flawless perfection on me as well. Ouch, OUCH!
Dr. T, tell me if this is a good example of a double bind.
Let’s take something as simple a dinner. In the past few days, you’ve made steak, chicken, pork chops, and seafood. Today, you’re discussing dinner with your BPD, and they say “I’m sick of everything”. OK, so you suggest that you go out to eat…then you get the “we can’t afford it” statement.
Now you’re screwed either way…can’t cook at home, because “they’re sick of everything”…can’t go out to eat, as “we can’t afford it”. Either way, you’re never gonna hear the end of it…
Yes, this is a good example of a classic double bind situation. Double binds induce a sense of powerless and learned helplessness, which weaken you and make you more susceptible to her abuse and control.
Hope this helps,
It seems I’m not the only one. Father of 3 here, and I wasn’t sure what I’d find when I googled, but … I can relate. I’m honestly not sure what to do. I’m constantly paralyzed, mentally. Finding myself in “twilight-zone” arguments. I’ve suddenly realized, my wife thinks she’s a gifted fortune teller, or psychic. I’ve literally left the room multiple times because I wasn’t even sure who, or what, she was even arguing with. The weird part is, in all of her grand accusations and assumptions, the person she seems to think I am… would be a serious asshole.
I have a strong mind. I have a lot of patience. I cannot seem to penetrate the attack/defense setting that she is stuck on, even with experimentation of flattery, etc. I can feel myself floundering. I’ve always considered it a point of strength to be able to deal with her insane versions of the past, or her insulting predictions of what I’m thinking…
I am in between personalities, one day shes venting all of her fears and worries and needs a shoulder, the next she’s demeaning me in front of the kids, again. I do have a weak spot, I hate being disrespected for no reason. But what can you do when she denies it? I don’t mean sort of denies it, I mean pathological liar denial.
I’m going to shoot myself out of the canon now, thanks for the circus music….
Very very frightening, indeed.
Actually, I have to laugh, because up until your last sentence, I was thinking “she’s not that talented to plot this all out in advance.” But you’re right. It’s instinctive, and on the fly. Amazing.
Thank you for this. It only helps explain things more and more.
In terms of “he cannot make a metacommunicative statement,” any attempts I made were met with continuous frustration, argument, rage, subterfuge, and misdirection. I was suddenly the “bad guy” for “attacking” poor, helpless, her.
I’m almost at 8 months no contact.
Life returns a bit more each day.
Kev, 8 months no contact and life is returning?!….that scares the crap out of me. 8 months and this is still not history for you. I am finding it real tough I admit and am now 14 days (yes Im counting them!) away from her, only 4 days without hearing from her. I know I must must must get away from her and I am trying, but 8 months?!! oh god….
Just saw your reply now, my apologies for not responding sooner. Yeah, it was 8 months when I posted that. I’m now at almost a year. Things are progressing. Is my life entirely back? No. But I am better, and stronger than I’ve been in a long, long time.
I was in the relationshit (not a typo) for about a year. She broke me in half, and did her best to destroy the bits and pieces that were left over. Yet, I’m coming through it, through therapy, and, honestly, this site, and my interactions here.
I don’t know how long you were in the war zone yourself. And, I’m sure it’s safe to say “your mileage may vary” in terms of getting over and through things. Healing comes, and it comes at the speed we need it to.
I have no doubt that you’ll get through this, too, brother. Just don’t rush it. Take the time to put your stuff in order. That way, the next relationshiP will be that much more fulfilling.
best to you,
This is great advice for everyone. I believe that the more positive things you add to your life after shedding one of these women will help to accelerate the healing process.
My very best to both you and Simon.
Just think of her as a bottle of poison…because poison is what they are and yet to all others they can function quite normally.
Recovering Alpha says
I’m at 4 months no contact. THAT IS THE BEST THING I COULD HAVE DONE! I have kids so it’s very tough, but there are ways. We communicate through the (home environment) Day Care people and through our lawyers. If I can recommend one thing to better health AND better recognition to what you were in, then it’s
!!!!!!!!!!!! NO CONTACT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just (and I mean 1 minute ago) got a text message from my (STB)ex’s mother. It was actually addressed to my son, but I KNOW IT WAS SENT BY HER. She wanted to know what he was doing for New Year’s Eve? WTF?!!?!
It was very very hard not to reply with a smart remark, but as Dr T’s articles say, “No Contact” means NO CONTACT. NONE. ZIP. ZILCH. NADA.
“No contact is for our own recovery of health.” I read that in one Dr T’s articles or a commenter’s blog. THAT IS THE KEY. I realize now that the only way to recover my health is no contact. I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to have 12 months NC under my belt. Kev, tell me it’s not that hard. Lately I’ve been fantasizing calling or visiting my ex, and I know that is VERY BAD!
Recovering Alpha – 12 months is a good goal. 🙂 I’m about 6 hours and 11 minutes away from the 12 month marker as I type this.
Yes, I’m being that exact about it. 🙂
Yes, it gets easier with time, and distance. As you’ve said, you are in a better place than you were 4 months ago. Remember that each day. Remember that when you hit 5 months. Remember that when you hit 6 months.
When you feel the nostalgia come on, remember what she did to you. Remember the fights. The belittling. The snide comments. The cold shoulder. Remember how she made you feel like a criminal and unworthy of even the slightest bit of affection.
Do you really want to continue those conversations with her? Because they WILL continue, if you resume contact. I suspect you don’t, so don’t.
When you feel the urge to contact again, DISTRACT YOURSELF. Put on some music. Read a book. Go for a walk. Call a friend, or a family member instead. Have them meet you for coffee, or a drink. It’s okay to confide in someone you trust about what you’re going through, and ask them to help you find something else to occupy your time and mind.
You may think “this time might be different!” This time she might act kindly towards you. This time she might admit or acknowledge her mistakes.
It won’t be. She won’t. She can’t. If she does, she’s lying.
NO CONTACT. NONE. ZIP. ZILCH. NADA.
It gets easier with time. There will be good days, there will be bad days. You have kids in the mix, and it will be tough. There may be accidental contact. Learn to discern what is a manufactured emergency where she tries to get you to engage. The text message you received may have indeed been accidental, but as you said, it may have been something more.
DO NOT ENGAGE THE ENEMY. DO NOT FEED THE BORDERLINES (or Narcissists either, for that matter).
I’m not in any 12 step programs, but when things get bad, I adopt the “one day at a time” approach. If the future seems daunting (and at 4 months out, it still will at times), concentrate on the here and now. This moment. The next moment. The moment after that.
It may also seem like an appealing idea to gloat to her and say “look how far I’ve come! Look how much I’m over you!”
NO CONTACT. NONE. DO NOT ENGAGE. DO NOT FEED THE BORDERLINES.
You don’t need her approval. She’s never going to give it to you anyway.
You may have already lost some, or you may yet lose some friends in this whole process. Be prepared for that. It’s okay. It sucks, but it’s okay. You’re going to find out who truly loves you and is willing to stick by you in this whole thing.
Hang in there, and have a safe, happier New Year, and remember: NO CONTACT. 🙂
6 hours, 1 minute to go now. 🙂
Be well, and good luck!
Hello Recovering Alpha, Simon & Kev,
I just wanted to say a BIG Congratulations & how it is so good to see posts of this positive nature with you all going NO CONTACT! You should all be so proud of yourselves! I do not even know you & I am proud of you all! 🙂 Stay strong/no contact & Happy New Year with your new found freedom! Good Luck & All My Best. Happy New Year Everyone.
thank you. 🙂
It means a lot. And I promise you, I’m not just saying that.
Brian Gard says
I was married to a Borderline Personality Disordered woman for 8 years, at first
I was very confidant, had many friends, very happy but as time went on life
got strange, she tried to destroy all other relationships I had with other
people, borrowed money from everyone including employer, than filed for
bankruptcy, we got divorced, I was very frightened she was going to kill
herself, she threatened to kill me if I let her ex-husband know about
her behavior because she thought she would lose custody of her daughter,
life was a nightmare I barely kept my job and belongings, it took years
to recover financially. After 3 years I felt like I had before I meet her,
very happy, healthy, lots of friends, many girl friends, eventually I got
married and have 2 great kids and loving wife. I had no contact with her
in 14 years though we lived in same town, last week she walked just outside
of the city limits and shot herself dead, she was a school teacher. I
was shocked and thinking about her brings back all the sadness and confusion
and memories of her peculiar behavior, I am mostly angry at her for doing
it to herself. Fourteen years ago I felt like I was the main actor in a
Alfred Hitchcock movie, I would awake thinking I was coming out of a bad
dream and realize it was for real. There is a lot of effort to try
and ‘cure’ people with borderline personality but they cause more suffering
to the world than they can feel themselves. I feel so fortunate to
have my life back.
I would feel better about ascertaining my situation if I heard one thing. I constantly question whether or not I am the messed up one. Am I controlling, demanding, explosive, jealous, trivial, decietful, etc…
Of course, I don’t just “want to hear it,” but does anyone else think this way often? Maybe I have a problem with BPD(now that I have learned what it is). I don’t think I am any of these things, but “let he that lives in a glass house…” Maybe I play the victim. I don’t know anymore. So, is it just me??? Heck, I guess if it was, it would be a feeling of elation. Then, I just go seek the help that is needed, without depending on someone else making that decision for themselves!!!
Mark, the mere fact that you mention that “Maybe I have a problem with BPD…” means that you probably do NOT have BPD. Spend a bit of time browsing this wonderful site, and others on the Internet, and you’ll quickly discover that the VAST majority of BPD/NPDs utterly refuse to acknowledge that they have a problem. The BPD person might look at these sites and say “It’s not me! It’s my spouse/significant other/parents/friends/etc. who has a problem!”
What you are suffering (and it is suffering!) from is PROJECTION. Read throughout here how BPDs “project” their feelings and thoughts upon YOU. All of us have those characteristics you mentioned (controlling, demanding, etc.) to one degree or another…BUT, in the BPD’s world, they are perfect, YOU are the problem. For example, if you work as a manager, you may be perceived (right or wrong) as demanding…well, in some cases, you may have goals set by higher mgmt. to meet, and therefore must expect certain things out of your underlings. We all might be somewhat jealous of pro sports players who make barrels full of cash. HOWEVER, while your jealousy level might be a 2 on a scale of 1 to 10, in the BPD’s world, they crank it all the way to 11!
Your feelings are 10000% in line with what all of us who deal with a BPD person feel most of the time…that we’re wrong, and this occurs because you’re constantly having this “wrong-ness” being reinforced by the BPD person. BPDs are very skilled at taking the most secure, happy, and smart person and beating them (both verbally, mentally, and sometimes physically) into a meek, wussy shell of themselves.
With regard to “playing the victim”, you have to look back at how you behaved PRIOR to your current relationship…if “bad” things happened in your personal or professional lives, and you “shrugged it off”, but now play the “poor me” game, then NO, you are not “playing the victim”; this is what your BPD person has done to you.
Your 2nd sentence is very revealing…almost to a person, we have ALL felt this way at one time or another in our BPD relationships…just take some time to browse through reply posts and you’ll easily see this pattern. Websites like Dr. Tara’s help you realize that you are NOT ALONE, and that you CAN get through this and escape, and have the chance to rebuild yourself.
A relationship with a crazy person, by its very nature, leaves you doubting your own sanity, sense of reality and character.
Of course nobody on this site can confirm with 100% certainty that you are NOT crazy, which is why you need a trusted advisor–a friend or therapist–with whom you can discuss your feelings and experiences and get a reality check when you need one.
This is especially key if you’re the kind of guy who doesn’t have a lot of confidence in his own reality in general. People who doubt their own reality testing often come from families with a lot of craziness in them and they grow up wondering if they’re a bit crazy too. Then, if they get involved with a wingnut, they’re never quite sure if the girlfriend/spouse is nutty of if they themselves are. This is a tough place to be, and it’s the kind of achilles’ heel that a BPD/NPD lover will instinctively exploit.
It gets even more dicey if you do in fact have a minor mental health issue. Say, for the sake of discussion, that you have mild depression for which you take an anti-depressant. Once you admit this to your BPD/NPD lover it’s likely she will never take your feelings or opinions seriously, dismissing them instead with comments like “have you forgotten to take your medication again?”
In other words, even if you DO have some kind of mental health issue, it doesn’t necessarily follow that she’s NOT crazy and destructive.
And in any case, you don’t have to be perfect to expect to be treated lovingly in your relationship. When healthy people love you they’ll happily tolerate all kinds of faults and quirks.
The chances are it’s not just you. Like Mike91163 points out, the fact that you’re willing to look at your own behavior with such honesty
Oops…sorry for that last fragment.
I was gonna say, the fact that you’re willing to look honestly at your own behavior suggests that whatever is going with you, the chances are it is NOT a personality disorder along the lines of BPD/NPD.
Hey jp, you NAILED me with one comment: “…have you forgotten to take your medication again?” I have posted elsewhere about my wife’s problems with me taking opiate pain meds for severe chronic pain due to rheumatoid arthritis. Anyway, I’ve been off of them for the past 7 months (at her “request”), and just recently went to my primary care doctor with her in tow for advice re: pain mgmt. Well, long story short, he was no help…but, we’re going to try Lyrica, which is used almost exclusively for fibromyalgia or neuropathic pain–neither of which I have, but, we’ll try it anyway.
So, I’ve been on it for a week or so now, and the other day, the wife got pissed with me because I forgot something she told me the day before. I got the “are you taking pain meds again?” speech, and the “I hope this medicine is causing problems…”
Very calmly, I say “Hon, in the past 6 months, not being on ANY medication, have I NEVER forgotten anything that you’ve said to me?” (And yes, I do forget things…I guess it’s the old selective hearing bit or “tuning her out”) There was nothing but COMPLETE SILENCE on the other end…of course, I then got “I gotta go now”…and, the rest of the day, while she wasn’t a total bitch, I got the “cool” treatment.
Like Jack Nicholson said in “Men of Honor”: “The truth? YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!”
Mike, your comments resonate with me. I have a severely herniated disc between L4 & L5 that, due to my age, the neurosurgeon did not want to operate on… says I’m too young, give it time, take the meds. So I go to a pain management doctor and take opioids daily.
My wife has this completely irrational hatred of medication (to the point that I must fight with her to give my teething daughter some tylenol on the nights that she’s screaming in agony). Of course, she doesn’t like me taking my pain medication, but I quit rolling over and playing dead and took a firm stance and let her know that she could not tell me how to care for my body. I’ve since been taking a similar approach any other time she spazzes out for no good reason… seems to be working… maybe she’s not that much of a BPD (or perhaps, she’s not a severe case).
Doug. Mine was a definite cluster b and also dictated which medication to take….NONE. This insisted upon by her through my 4 knee surgeries and cervical fusion. I did what I wanted while she carped incessantly about it. Control control control. Their wretched souls are coming unhinged so to feel better they become dictators.
I do have one question – where did you hide the camera in my house?
If I can answer yes to all but one do I win a prize or something?
Yes, Matt—the booby prize!
… I don’t know where to start. I answered yes to 13 questions up there. I have already triple-checked to make sure I didn’t count any twice. Here is my situation: I am 18 (please don’t focus too much on my age… I hear it enough already, I’ve realized I made a mistake getting married so young, but my options were limited.) I don’t know what to do. Thankfully I do not have any kids. I love my wife, but she for sure has this condition. Life has been hell because of it. I’ve tried leaving her before when we were just dating, but she always guilt tripped me back. I’m not allowed to talk to females, and if they talk to me she gets angry at me, but I have to admit, the jealousy in her has calmed down a lot. It went from an “OMG You A**, your cheating on me!! F*** you” to a “why were those girls talking to you.” She constantly only cares about her feelings and ignores mine. I don’t get much sleep in the army, and on the weekends when I go home, I spend some time with her, then I start dozing off, and she starts complaining at first, then pouting, telling me that I never spend time with her and when I do all I do is sleep. Then once my eyes are closed she will continue to shake me, slap me, or say or do something that will infuriate me, just to get me to wake up. I’m going to have to say I’m concerned about the sex life too. Started off with a bang, came to a series of speed bumps, a halt for my basic training, then sky rocketed right after basic and is now again at slow speed bumps. I see her Friday night till Sunday afternoon, and I expect to have sex a least once. She promises great sex all day, and keeps putting it off until she picks a fight so we don’t that day, and don’t the next day. And I go back to the barracks same as I left. And I have to be very careful about bringing up sex because she yells at me and says that’s all I want. I don’t know what to do. Finally letting this out has made me feel better but reading responses will help a lot too. Thank you.
Hi Jacob. Life is for making mistakes and learning from them so don’t beat yourself up over making any mistakes. You are young and if this is no longer for you then get out as soon and painlessly as possible. You have already admitted it was a mistake, no kids are involved so run man!
It quite normal to have a very strong bond or love with someone when you are young but over time you kind of drift apart. You are still both growing up and changing rapidly.
Looking at your script above I would say that the fire has gone out a bit for you guys. Take it from me, it doesn’t get better and if kids do come along then you are stuck or have the heart wrenching agony of walking away from your child.
Take a really long hard look at your life and decide if this is really not for you and if it was a mistake (your words) then fix it now before its too late.
All the Best
ST, on September 10th, 2009 at 5:26 am Said:
This is so sad. I used to enjoy music and arts. These days if I express that I like such things, my wife comes out with “why? Who are you seeing?”. I enjoy learning new things, new languages and when I comment on wanting to learn something new she’ll say “Why? Are you seeing someone or need to impress someone?”
WHY is she behaving like this? Read my other posts, WHY is she like this? I can’t understand it. If she is so insecure yet so controlling, what is the point of being in a relationship at all?
Awesome point, ST, but it’s sadly simple: Your wife (AND mine) NEED someone to “project” their insecurities on…they have, most likely, ran off many other people (family and friends) with their projections and controlling-type behavior, so guess who’s left as the “punching bag”?
Simple example: My wife and I have Facebook pages. I know most of her friends, female AND male, and am secure enough that it doesn’t faze me in the least. However, she’s asked many a time who this or that female friend is in that condescending, suspicious tone…meanwhile, most of them are former ELEMENTARY or HIGH SCHOOL classmates from 30+ years ago who I haven’t seen or heard from until their FB friend request!
But therein lies an irony…while ALL of my “old” friends were ones who searched ME out and sent friend requests, she hasn’t gotten many (if any) from her old schoolmates. Gee whiz, why might these people want to “catch up” with me, yet no one seeks HER out? Hmmm…
Facebook thing?? Yeah, we got that occuring here as well……no one reaches out to her……Wonder why? She only converses with FB friends that are triple Divorce’s with a hatred for men…
Ugh. I’d prepare accordingly then. She’s probably getting advice about how much she’s entitled to and divorce advice from similar women.
If you decide to leave, I very strongly encourage you to find an attorney who’s very skilled in dealing with high conflict personalities. 3-time female divorcees are usually alimony pros.
Wow, I had to go back and read THIS article again. So many months ago when I first read this article in search of what my ‘pain’ was all about. The ‘whys’
It’s all right here. Even the added ones by Dr. T and readers that contributed. When I first read this 5-6 months ago my blood curled and I got ‘chicken skin’. It was chilling to say the least.
Now, I can read it and I just shake my head. The misery and damage this disturbing stuff was the core reason for.
Abnormal and dysfunctional to the MAX. Yes, toxic crazy bitch! BUT, what a huge job at disguising this garbage can of crap.
Glad I re-read this article. Reminded me of where I ‘was’ then and ‘where’ I am now. With work still to do on myself.
Wow I literally drowned to learn to swim. Must know the waters infested with sharks though!!
Good stuff this is! EVERYONE should read this first as a primer!!
Thanks, Bert. That’s why this was my inaugural post.
I’m happy you’re in a different place now and encourage you to keep moving forward.
All my best,
Hey Dr. T,
I haven’t piped in for a few weeks, I’ve had dates with 4 different ladies over the past month, it’s been awsome!! Been receiving your posts and it breaks my heart, (Yes, even for all you guys out there!) to hear these stories, especially where children are involved. I can assure all you guys, the life you lead with your NPD/BPD is not what you want your children to witness, grow up in, and they to eventually, take on some of those egregious traits. There is no price you can place on their well being or your sanity! Once you’ve dated a few nice women, the world is a better place. I fell for one lady recently, everything was cool, and out of no where, she turned “Sybil” on me! NEXT!!
So Doc, have you watched your “Zohan” movie yet?? Best wishes to all! I’ll k.i.t.!
Good to see you hear again, melove. Nicely done with “Sybil.”
I’m afraid I haven’t watched Zohan yet. I need to be in the right mood to watch Adam Sandler and am still waiting for the necessary planets to align;-)
I am sad to say that I have unknowingly committed a few double bind situations with my current partner (especially with the dinner situation!). I’ve also been guilty of committing the same mistake when it came to playing World of Warcraft. We’ve since worked through at least one of these issues. Our solution? I go out dancing with my co-workers 2x a week and he stays home and plays games. People question us, but it works out just fine. I guess I still have a few narcissistic qualities to work on, though. I’m glad I came across this list so that I could work on my own problems and not end up a crazy bitch!
You go out Dancing 2 times per week??
This is not going to end well…..
He plays World of Warcraft 7 times a week. I think I’m entitled to a little fun on my own. 🙂 We have very open communication.
David Lebrocq says
I’ve been struggling for over a year in a battle with my ex over custody of my now 4 year old daughter.
Before that I was for many years in a terrible relationship and staying in it with the expressed purpose of building a relationship with my daughter from her birth in 2005.
In the back of my mind I always knew my daughter would be used as a pawn against me in a separation situation and hence stayed in the relationship as long as I could manage.
This article and your website has opened my eyes to the fact that I have been dealing with someone suffering from BDP, or worse.
My ex has done everything she possibly can to limit my time with my daughter in the hopes that she could damage or destroy the relationship.
Thankfully having already built a strong relationship, the limited time I have with my daughter since the split is focused, enjoyable, and brought my daughter and I closer together than ever.
My question is: Given I’ll be lucky to have my daughter at this young age more than 25% of the time how do I protect my daughter from learning this horrible behaviour from her mother??
Any ideas would be appreciated.
And thanks so much for your efforts Dr. T. on this great site!!
Continue to be a source of strength and healthy role model for her. When you see her begin to act in ways that remind you of your wife, nip it in the bud immediately. Get her a child therapist. Talk to your daughter about why threatening others, throwing fits, name calling, etc., isn’t acceptable. Show her that there are better ways to communicate. Get her involved in lots of extracurricular activities—especially ones that include learning how to work together as a team.
Build friendships with healthy women (platonic) and let your daughter spend time with these women. Don’t bad mouth her mother, but when you see her behaving like “mini-me” ask her where she saw/heard/learned these behaviors. Gently explain why it’s wrong and hurtful and teach her their are better ways to express herself.
Basically, you need to give her access to healthier role models and if you for one moment suspect your ex is lashing out at her, get her into therapy and have it documented.
Hope this helps,
David, when I was going through a nasty divorce many years ago, I was so worried about issues of parental alienation – which my ex definitely practiced, though she did stop and we are all in a much better place today. I bring this up because people were always telling me (whether to prop me up or to not deal with my issues) “children are resilient.” By that they meant to reassure me that kids bounce back. Well, resilience is just that – bounce-back. When you drop a ball down to the ground, it does bounce back. But it never bounces back quite as high. Kids ARE resilient. And they don’t bounce as high once dropped. They certainly don’t soar as high as they do when they are elevated by those who care for them. Do everything you can to elevate your daughter ABOVE the fray. My son witnessed some ugliness from his mother, but he also witnessed me dealing with it and not flinching. Through that he was reassured that I was a fixture in his life and not just a visitor. That will be a good feeling for you as well. Make sure your daughter KNOWS you care, even when you can’t be there. Your words and actions will counter the negativity from her mother. And whatever you do, don’t take the advice of well-meaning friends who say ‘oh she’s okay,’ or ‘she’ll be fine.’ YOU make sure she is. Call her everyday. If your ex won’t allow it, go to court and have a judge permit it. Mediators and judges love a pro-active dad, because they deal with so many deadbeats. At least this is what I was told by people in the california courts system who helped me. And be creative. I found that a well-worn CD of Will Smith’s song ‘Just the Two of Us’ helped bridge the miles and worked wonders. It became our anthem. You can do it, David. And your daughter will thank you.
David Lebrocq says
Kent: Thanks for the response.
Fortunately EVERYONE I know sees what my daughter and I are going through as parental alienation behaviour.
Everyone except for my lawyer and the family court system here in Ontario – which is a nightmare especially for someone as broke as I am.
My daughter is 4 and already suffering from the limited court ordered time we have together (about 15% of her life) and unfortunately is being victimized directly by her mother.
During our last time together I was told out of the blue by my daughter that ‘mom says I’m too little to talk on the phone’. I have never talked to my daughter on the phone in the last year despite at least 50 calls.
And thanks for the motivational speech.
I can see my daughter will thank me, and to some degree already does because I provide her with a fun, safe, shouting free environment to live in even if right now it is for such little time.
It’s been a little stressful the last few months when typically I have to physically pry her out of the car to give her back to her mom – but I know we will be okay and in the long run there is a very good chance she’ll decide to live with me anyway.
She’s a smart little girl – this weekend we are going to be working on learning to dial dad’s phone number and she has already been using the computer for a year so as her reading gets better email will be possible too.
Like you say – make sure she knows I am available for her!!
Hi David. OMG do I remember the prying when it was my son’s time to go back to his mom’s. And her psycho behavior when he exhibited that in front of her. It’s tough man, but you’re doing it right. Good for you!! You’re an inspiration for your daughter and for any other Dad’s who will read your posts. My situation got better over time and with lots of work. Progress was slow but definite. And right this moment my son and I are on an out of town trip having a wonderful time and bonding like crazy. It’s all worth it. Good luck, brother. (now if my fiancee would just stop competing with my son for my attention – but that’s a story for another post).
that`s so touching… as she gets older she`ll see your place as the peace haven and want to be there more….there might be some possibility that these people have a `candida albicans` problem….bless you and your little daughter.
Yes to most of the points, if not all of them. Oh boy. I still have this little glimmer that says “we can get through this,” that somehow, she can start treating me in a loving and respectful manner. It’s been 8 years. Things have improved a tiny bit, but the toll on me and my life (and my health) has been significant, and I feel like I have to fight tooth and nail just to complete a thought. I keep trying to say “that’s not fair,” and I’ve purchased books and sought counseling. Oh man, isn’t “she’s a crazy bitch” just the easy way out? Sounds really appealing right now, it’s just that I really believe in marriage, and I feel so ashamed. I also feel guilty about the behaviors and arguments I feel I’ve been “dragged” into.
Just a few points…
–“I still have this little glimmer that says “we can get through this,” that somehow, she can start treating me in a loving and respectful manner. It’s been 8 years.” Yeah, I used to have that glimmer too…I’ve been married for 19 yrs, and it’s been a living hell for the past 14 yrs. With “high-functioning” BPDs, there’s an “ebb and flow” many times…there’s plenty of times that I’ll sense improvement, and then the other shoe will drop, and it’s always once you’ve let your guard down.
–“but the toll on…my health has been significant.” I think that this is one of the most undiagnosed and underrated “collateral damages” of being with a BPD wife. Sure, you might write off “minor” health issues like premature graying/balding, erectile disfunction, and others as nuisances and ignore them as “typical aging” issues; BUT, I’m sure many here have serious health problems, like high blood pressure, ulcers, and auto-immune disorders like arthritis and such.
–“isn’t “she’s a crazy bitch” just the easy way out? Sounds really appealing right now, it’s just that I really believe in marriage, and I feel so ashamed.” Buddy, it’s not the easy way out, it’s the ONLY way out! Hey, I believe in marriage and its vows, too, but ask yourself this: Has SHE fulfilled her end of the vows? If you have given your heart, your soul, your mind, and unfortunately your HEALTH, and have gotten little or nothing in return, well, there’s nothing to be ashamed of by getting out. If you are confident that you have done your best, then you must get out. I love my wife as well, but I’ve gotten to where I call it “tough love”…yeah, it’s cliched, but it’s fairly accurate.
“Tough Love” is the only thing Mine will respond to with positive results for me. Being kind to her just opens the door for increased abuse and further withholding.
Anon Crazy Bitch says
What if you are the crazy bitch? What can I do? I got diagnosed with Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome, which I believe was making me have things like mood swings and irritability. But even after the diagnosis and the new meds (Metformin for insulin resistance and birth control to fight the abnormal amount of testosterone), I find myself still falling into these categories. I love my husband. I want to be better. We are very open and will have been married two years next month.
Scott Brewer says
I wish to God you were my wife.
God bless you for seeking help, and God bless you and your husband’s marriage.
Imagine not going, getting worse, denying anything is wrong and hurting your man over and over again, then turning it on your baby.
Your husband is more lucky than he’ll ever know for you taking that (hard) first step. Hat’s off to you.
Dear Anon Crazy Bitch –
I can’t go as far as Scott for wishing you were my wife because I’ve been through enough already, but I understand the sentiments 🙂
Even with all the problems with my wife, if she were just willing to admit that she had problems I might try to work it out. Not only are you admitting it, but you see that a problem exists. whenever I bring anything up that she said or did, she says that I’m delusional and lying about her – even if I wrote down what she said and told an independent witness when she said it.
One suggestion that I have is to please be honest with your husband and tell him the same things that you said here. Also, if you do something, no matter how bad it is, admit it and ask him to forgive you. The type of men that frequently end up with “crazy bitches” can frequently put up with a lot of things if honestly still remains. The frustration boils over when the woman insists that you are delusional and that you are the problem.
I hope it works out for you. I can tell you that even though many of us have no choice but to divorce, going through divorce is still hell. I have to continue on the path to divorce, but I have never been through anything that has been so difficult or emotionally destructive.
Anon Crazy Bitch says
I’m definitely honest with my husband – sometimes to the point of hurtful. Sort of the male version of “Do I look fat in these pants?”
Is there anything you wish you and your wife had done differently? A point where there was no turning back and getting better? I worry despite apologies after the fact and a real medical condition that eventually that will not be enough.
What do you mean you are “honest to the point of being hurtful?” Do you mean you say hurtful, but what you feel are “honest,” things to him like “wow, you’re really losing a lot of hair” or “your love handles are getting really big” or “compared to other men you don’t earn enough money?”
If so, knock it off. Even if it is true; it’s incredibly hurtful and insulting. How would you feel if he said those kinds of things to you?
You may have a legitimate medical condition, but that does NOT excuse hurtful and abusive behavior. Your apologies may very well be “heartfelt,” but they’re absolutely meaningless when you keep doing the same hurtful things over and over again.
Anon Crazy Bitch says
Thanks for the kind words – I’m working on my condition, but as I told StudidAgain, I can be very hurtful. Sort of the male version of “Do I look fat in these pants?”
Is there anything you wish you and your wife had done differently? A point where there was no turning back and getting better? I worry despite apologies after the fact and a real medical condition that eventually that will not be enough.
Yes,…..(I’ll answer even though you asked them)..If she had ever…ever really made me feel loved. I can take a very heated exchange as I grew up with 4 fierce brothers.
I can take a fierce exchange as along as it is balanced with “good times”. everyone can debate, but the low blows, coupled with the gaslighting, coupled with the lack of culpability……and the withdrawing of affection all adds up to “I’m done”
What’s in it for me?? I used to have this Italian Girlfriend….we fought like crazy….but we loved like crazy as well….She was fun and the Fights were actually load debates…..no cheap punches and a smile and giggling could break out at anytime during the fight…..we knew we were just “jousting”
Deal Breakers are lack of balance. Since my Mother died 5 years ago, I’ve not felt loved by and adult woman since then……..(my two daughters don’t count, they love me and it shows, but that is why I use the adjective “Adult”)
I’ve been married for 18 years. Yet I feel that I’ve been “alone” that whole time.
If you are indeed sick, yet your man feels nowhere near what I feel, If he is indeed a man, He stick with you. I heartfelt “I’m Sorry” goes a long long way. Understand…..if you save the “I’m sorry” for the moment just before he walks out the door, it will be seen as just a manipulation. He may accept it but deep in in mind, He’ll know it was empty. Too many empty apologies lead to the Deal breaker.
I didn’t know much about POS, so I did a little research. According to the Wiki encyclopedia, POS is:
“an endocrine disorder that affects approximately 5% of all women. It occurs amongst all races and nationalities, is the most common hormonal disorder among women of reproductive age, and is a leading cause of infertility.
The principal features are obesity, anovulation (resulting in irregular menstruation), acne, and excessive amounts or effects of androgenic (masculinizing) hormones. The symptoms and severity of the syndrome vary greatly among women. While the causes are unknown, insulin resistance, diabetes, and obesity are all strongly correlated with PCOS.”
I’ve read through several other sites and the only secondary mental health symptom/condition I can find are depression and scant reference to mood swings. From what I can tell the best way to treat this disorder is through a strict diet; meds alone don’t seem to be sufficient.
The drugs you list above aren’t psychopharmaceuticals and certainly aren’t mood stabilizers. If you don’t feel able to control your behavior—whether it’s an artifact of POS or a problem in its own right—I encourage you to find a cognitive behavioral therapist to work with as well as your medical doctor to tease out exactly what’s going on.
It’s great that you can acknowledge that you’re behaving in hurtful ways, but taking insulin regulators and birth control isn’t sufficient. You need to learn how not to act out when you feel out of control rather than chalking it up to POS.
When I read your scoring chart I cringed. You said –
“If you answered “yes” to more than two of these questions, you may be involved with a Borderline or a Narcissist. You’re not alone. They’re everywhere.”
My wife scored 15 out of 19 and it was a strong yes on all 15. Unfortunately, if she did the quiz herself, I’m sure it would be zero instead of 15.
I’m glad that I found this site. I recently figured out what I was dealing with, but it helps to see a site dedicated specifically to men dealing with borderline women.
Can we please change your name to “Getting Smarter?” Language is powerful, so please don’t put yourself down like that.
Now that you’ve figured out what you’re dealing with, you need to begin making choices about what you want to do. I encourage you to seek support throughout this process as it can be very painful and isolating on your own.
I just ran across this article and website. It is so helpful! Been married 18 years with two wonderful kids to a woman (girl) undiagnosed BPD. She totally fits all of the above except the Lipstick. I have been in weekly counseling with a therapist (PhD) for six months and am just now regaining the sanity. Started the divorce process and cannot wait to leave. I just do not want to lose the kids! She will not work, but has skills and a BA degree. Spends money like water. Invents new problems and issues daily. Does nothing with her time. Expects the world. Elevates issues, as small as mole hills into mountains. It all fits and clicks.
Thank you Tara, for this website. You are probably helping more men, women, families and their friends that you can imagine!
And good luck with the divorce process. These women can be grasping, parasitic vultures. If she has an education and skills, ask your attorney about having her see a vocational evaluator. They can assess what her earnings would be if she she actually makes the effort and gets a job. You may be able to get the court to impute her potential earnings off of the support you pay her.
Furthermore, women seem to be having an easier time finding work in the economic downturn (a.k.a. DEPRESSION), so any excuses she clings to will be just that—excuses.
yes thats just `it`, a new issue each day…like they thrive on problems….because they must `always` be the victim….
ok, i read the quiz, which was frightfully true, and some of the comments.. as a woman i read this with deep interest. i myself have portrayed many of these “symptoms” “attitude problems” “insecuritis” (or whatever it is you want to call it) when i was youger. people can and do change. (hold on…keep reading lol) people do change all the time…that doesn’t always mean for the better lol. my advice, if yuu are with a woman like this, leave her, or at least seperate for a lengthy amount of time to let her know yr serious…yr not her (god i hate to say this)- man/bitch. women like these will always push the limit, from something as simple as “why’d you lite yr cigarette before mine?” JUST to see how you’ll react… don’t give in. as one, it will only get worse. as horrible as this may sound, she needs time to think and feel.. when all yr thoughts and feelings are directed to or for someone else you are not giving yourself the ability to feel and be distinctively what makes you “you”. only people who know themselves and are comfortable in their own skin can have true healthy relationships….give her time alone, no matter how much she hates it. go to work, hang with friends (if you live together) get on the computer and do your thing…if it comforts her let her stare at you lol. the point is to set up boundaries and limitations, a mutal respect so to speak. maybe it’ll work maybe it wont. what a “crazy bitch” needs is time alone with her (not sure how to say it) lol- thoughts and insecurities. hopefully with the knowlege that you love her (which she may find hard to believe at first). what i’ve found works is talking about what i really want (i do this with my man) instead of saying “do you love me?” i say “i love you”, when i’m feeling insecure, instead of a thousand questions of “do you think i’m pretty?” “do you really like my haircut?” i simply say, “i’m feeling a little insecure…will you tell me my hair is pretty?” as time has gone by i find myself needing to ask for encouragement and assurance less and less. most of theee kind of women i think, don’t trust themselves and so they can’t trust you. an insecure woman incapable of trust will “need” control to feel that assurance. and that means games and questions and methods to ensare you to her always…because deep down one of her biggest fears is being alone with herself. so my advice…love and support her. set up boundaries (prepare yourself lol) and the biggest thing is to set up real (healthy) trust…talk, call her on her bullshit if necessary, and seperate for time to cool off. and listen. really listen. to what is actually bothering her that she’s hiding even from herself. do NOT feed her addiction… she feeds off you, yr attention, yr emotions, do not feed an addict. set up limititations and be consitent. with that, it may work, it may not, it depends completely on the indv.
Too David Lebrocq
Our children do wake up sooner or later to them and their dysfunctional behavior. Our children too are abuse daily by them and will resent it just as much as we did. All three of us (my two older sons and I) want nothing to do with their mother and have been in total NC for three years. But what is really sad is how she already done this to her two other children before I met her. These pathological people don’t change EVER! No doubt this is what happens whenever anyone refuses to take personal responsibility for their own actions and choices. How can anyone learn from our past if we refuse to see what part we played in it and take no blame but instead only blame everyone else? So your daughter too will in time wake up to what her mother really is and how it does effect her. So David like the old saying goes, “patience is a virtue”.
David Lebrocq says
Thanks James for the words – I understand patience and am becomimg a master!!! In the mean time every minute we spend together is the best possible time I can provide.
LosingSanity inNE says
I’ve been a reader now for about 4 months and have posted a couple times. I must say coming back to this article every so ofter really helps to regain sanity. I’ve been married 10 months now and have a wonderful 4 month old son. I always believed i could get my wife back to where she was our first two months of dating, when she was loving, sweet, caring, and quite the ballbuster. But now after things have only gotten worse, i’m on the verge of leaving and i must think this site for giving me the sight to seek help. In the last two months alone, i have gotten a second job, to take “financial stress” off my wife. And she told me about her “financial stress” while yelling at me in front of our apartment building, as she also yelled how she fucks me whenever i want it, but i do shit for her. It was very embarrassing and very false because i never ask for sex because i’m scared to have sex with my wife, since it’s been held over my head the entire time we’ve been together. Well anyways, i got this second job to bring in more income and now she gets mad because i work too much! This is also all added on top of her jealousy issues. Which she’ll admit to me she has a jealousy problem but makes a point to tell me she wouldn’t have any issues if they’re was a way she could make sure i would never mentally cheat on her. And she tells me this, when she herself as threatened to physically cheat on me! And just a couple weeks ago, she informed me with a stare that would make the devil run, that if i ever found another women good looking i deserved to be shot in the head. I was afraid to actually go to sleep that night and ever since have been making plans to get out. Sorry, i kind of rambled on there, but just typing out my experiences helps me keep in mind things are that bad and keeps me from getting pulled back in. Thanks for listening and thanks for giving me the sight.
Is it possible for a wife to begin this behavior as the result of a mid life crisis? My wife at 40 began making comments about old she is getting and how she isn’t pretty anymore because she is old. Even though after 10 years of marriage I find her beautiful and desirable, she just says all I want her for is sex, which we rarely have.
She became withdrawn and instead of looking at me and loving the things I do, over time she began to complain and tell me how miserable her life is. In the span of about a year and half we went from having what I thought was a very healthy and loving relationship to something else.
Things that used to matter where no longer a big deal, like wearing her wedding ring (if I pointed this out all hell would unleash), being affectionate with each other (kissing or saying I love You), or making love. Around the same time as these events occurred she also started staying up very late on the computer and I noticed that she was texting all the time. If I asked who she was texting or emailing she became very defensive and told me that “I didn’t trust her”.
One day I was on her computer and found a “story” titled Mid-Life Crisis and the central characters were her, I, and our son’s football coach who she talked a lot about at the time and who in this “story” she kissed after practice. When I asked her about it she became angry with me and told me that it was only a “story” and that she never should have written it with us as the central characters oh yeah, and I am over bearing and evil. With her withdrawing as she did I became jealous and wondered if all of the texting and emailing to his individual meant anything. Of course, in her eyes I am being jealous and untrusting of her.
Even as I laid out me case logically to explain how my feelings may have been generated, she just says “Oh Well” she did nothing wrong so how I feel is irrelevant. The part that bothered me the most was for many years she lifted me by her love and showered me with attention and affection. Now, that is gone and if I point it out she just tells me “she has changed” or now I have become “needy” or her favorite thing to tell me is “quite acting like an over emotional woman”.
I read your post with interest, as there are many similarities (barring the “story” on the computer) to my situation. First, before I get into anything else, has she recently had a complete workup by her doctor or obgyn? I ask this because many women can become pre-menopausal relatively early–in their mid to late 30s. Unlike us guys, who generally have a gradual decline in “virility” over a decade or two, women who experience early menopausal symptoms have their hormones get wacky fairly quickly, and we all know what PMS is like…now imagine that 24/7/365 for quite a few years. PLEASE understand that I am NOT making any sort of excuses for her behavior and actions; however, until she’s checked by a doctor, you don’t know if there’s a medical reason behind it.
That said, though, there IS a huge difference between the following:
–A woman who’s PMSing, kind of knows it, and APOLOGIZES for her behavior during/after;
–A woman who, for lack of a better word, “misbehaves”, and whether she blames PMS or “mid life crisis”, does NOT admit to it OR apologize, OR uses those reasons as an excuse.
I read your last paragraph with great interest…”mistake #1″ on your part was laying out your case logically…read here ( http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/10-reasons-you-cant-communicate-with-a-narcissistic-or-borderline-woman/ ) and you’ll know why she responded with an “oh well”…been there, heard that! I’ve gotten the old “YOU have changed” thrown my way as well; again, it’s an excuse for her behavior.
What cracks me up is how when THEY do the following:
–complain about how miserable THEY are
–don’t wear their wedding ring (yep, seen that too)
there’s always a million excuses…sick, don’t feel good, not in the mood, tired, working too hard…there’s always something! YET, and this is the biggie, when the things THEY have done grate on us, and WE do what I’ve listed, it is ALWAYS our fault-period. And wait, there’s more…let’s say us guys decide that we’ll work on our “faults” (since after all, WE’RE always wrong, they’re always right!)…when you say or do this, we get this gem: “You are going to have to EARN back my trust/love/affection/whatever…” and of course, it’s implied that there’s NO timetable for this–things will be “OK” when and IF, and only IF, they decide so. Therefore, you could go through the whole “perfect husband” rigamarole for YEARS with no improvement or resolution…trust me man, been there, still waiting…
Fortunately (I guess!) for me, I have not had to worry about the jealousy thing, as she seems to be content to live in her own little world. But, as AnonymousT writes, you need to get some information from professionals-a lawyer and a counselor. What’s the saying? “Hope for the best, but prepare for and expect the worst.” It’s a vital mantra, so that you’re mentally prepared.
Good luck to ya!
I think I just found the answer to the question I asked a couple minutes ago. My hunch is that if your wife isn’t technically having an affair she’s thinking about it.
If she won’t answer your questions, you may want to consider installing spyware on her computer as well as taking a look at her text records.
Swaggerback, I hate to say it, but 1) quietly schedule a consult with a respected, experienced divorce lawyer in your city, and 2) schedule an individual consult with a good marriage counselor. Just to get their feedback for now, not to initiate anything yet. But listen to what they tell you. The early prognoses I got from mine were absolutely accurate, although it took me too long to accept. By then she had done a number of very destructive and scary things, and I had to play catch-up to defend myself, my children, and my finances.
There is a real pattern to these women – read as many of the articles and posts here as you can. There is a discussion here in another thread about this pattern at around age 40, and Dr. T explained succinctly that these women often figure “it’s now or never” in terms of doing better than you (at least in their minds). It happened to me.
Don’t sit there like a target – be proactive and prepare to defend yourself legally and emotionally.
Thanks for the feedback…
When things first happened a year ago I responded emotionally and it only made things worse because then she could use my response as the problem. All people change and I think that anyone in a long term relationship will have rough spots, but as adults we must be accountable for our actions. I was once told that when in midlife crisis people will act like teenagers and rebel against any and everything with no accountability. The more logical I seem to try and be the further she will fight against or she will agree and recognize the behavior, but nothing changes consistently. The best part of the whole process that I have gone through in the last year is that I have learned more about myself and about human behavior in general. I have always believed that although we not always control our emotions we must always be accountable for them.
You mention a critical word here: ACCOUNTABILITY. With NPDs, there is ZERO accountability-they’re right, you’re wrong, end of discussion. With BPDs, there’s no accountability with regard to admitting that their behavior is improper.
As I’ve mentioned before, if my wife would only “crack” a little and admit that she’s behaved badly; that she’s said horrible things; that she feels lousy and is sorry for taking it out on me, I might be inclined to give her some benefit of the doubt and stick around. But, after a decade and a half of this, I have a better chance of hitting the lottery…
Lastly, because I’ve heard this from some “hit ‘n run” BPD/NPD women who’ve posted here…they’ve used the old marriage vows line. Umm, I recall that BOTH of us had to say those words-so why do the “rules” apply now to just me? You haven’t “cherished” me, you CHOOSE not to “love” and “have and hold” me…so I would say that YOU have failed to live up to YOUR end of the vows! I’m fine with sticking by you “for better or worse”, but YOU need to do the same!
Sorry for the rant there, but the whole accountability thing just always sticks in my craw…
My wife fits the “crazy bitch” descriptions here. Frankly, she has physically abused me. BUT…she expresses willingness to change. She’s read this website. Though she is not in therapy, she is willing to give it a go. Do I ditch the bitch, or do I hold her hand while she recovers from her abusive past?
Me personally, physical abuse is a deal-breaker…but how are you defining it? An open-handed slap or smack? A closed-fist punch? Hit with objects? Has the abuse happened a couple of times, or has there been a pattern?
“Willingness to change…willing to give therapy a go”. Well my friend, willing to do something and ACTUALLY DOING IT are two different things! Has she indeed changed her behavior without going to therapy? If not, sorry, it’s bye-bye time…if so, only YOU can decide whether therapy is actually going to help her continue to improve.
You mention that she had an abusive past…I’m not a psych or counselor, but generally speaking, recovering from those deep dark memories is gonna be difficult and take a lot of time…hell, my wife had one helluva f**ked-up childhood, and she refuses to discuss it, not even with her best friends of 40+ years, and that’s one reason (of many) that I hold no faith in therapy for her…and, there’s no guarantee that she’ll come out of therapy a better person. But again, without knowing any particulars, we really can’t say…
Physical abuse is a HUGE deal-breaker—especially if you have kids. I agree with Mike91163 100%. Document the abuse. Find a good attorney and explore your options.
Until and unless your wife actually starts attending therapy—and not with just any old therapist—she needs to see a practitioner of DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy) and stops the physical abuse now, she needs to do her recovery on her own without you. This is serious stuff. It’s an uphill battle that could take years, as in decades. Find a DBT therapist and speak with him or her about your wife’s prognosis, the timetable and then make an informed decision and please check back and let me know how you’re doing.
If your wife does indeed fit a good share of the descriptions as a “crazy bitch” here’s what you need to consider, purely historical factors.
a) what percentage of your interpersonal relationship has she displayed such behavior? In other words, has she always been like this and it’s gotten worse, or was she good for the most part and recently became this way?
b) if she has been this way always(to one degree or another) then the likelyhood she is detaining you, regrouping herself for the next ploy, delaying the inevitable, then she will manipulate the situation to make you be the bad guy when you go to counseling. I can assure you, she will not reveal herself if she is indeed NPD/BPD. Especially NPD. You will end up on the pointed end of that stick!
c)I also too believe that everyone should be given the benefit of doubt and allow them a chance to prove themselves. Be reasonable and most of all, be cautious. Also, read the signs before she gets the best of you in this counseling. If she truly has NPD/BPD, she needed time,via her willingness, to figure out things, and I don’t mean she’s trying to figure out how to get better. If she’s suffering from some other condition, then you might have a chance. Question is, you know her better than anyone, so what do you TRULY believe? What has history taught you? Is she a person of her word? Can you trust her to put forth an honest effort? Does she always project blame on you where it concerns why you have relationship problems? See where I’m going with this? Remember, rely on your intellect, not your emotions! I personally don’t believe she’s had an epiphany reading this site (if she meets the BPD/NPD criteria), however, I’ve been wrong before! Best of luck my man.
To future readers NEVER show your significant other this website unless you want to pour gasoline on the fire!
You need to decide the risk versus reward and determine if it is worth it. Only you can deicide for yourself. At this point I am not ready to move on, but that doesn’t mean I cannot weigh the options and visit here frequently for support. As for the abuse physical or mental, you do not have to accept it! Next time it starts stand your ground and tell her it is unacceptable and walk away. Do not speak to her…if you have kids shower them with the love you wish you received. If you do not have kids GET OUT!
I agree with the advice not to show your abusive spouses/gf’s my website. First, because it’s unlikely they’ll receive it well and you may end up inflicting more harm on yourself. Second, because if you’re seriously considering breaking up/divorce, you don’t want to tip your hand. I know you want them to understand and get some validation, but you’re very unlikey to attain these things from an abusive person.
Whoa. As an ex non-BPD partner I would like to say the following;
1) These women are not well and you have to learn to see them for what they are
2) Splitting up with them (scuse the pun) is painful and you have to learn to see their manipulation/control/distortions for what it is
3) Life gets better – once you meet a normal woman, you suddenly realise what you’re been conditioned to endure. The warmth, kindness and compassion of a normal partner feels unusual at first, but then you remember what normal relationships are all about.
Once you’ve realised that the hidden gem you’ve been trying to uncover within your BPD ex does not exist and that all the projecting and blame is not real, then you realise what a fool you’ve been and what you’ve put up with – initially it hurts and you feel used, but then you feel relief and then you see a glimmer of hope and after that your whole life’s potential unfolds and you can be yourself again,
Be strong, the withdrawal phase will pass and you will be whole again.
You are right in what you say….I am currently 14 days out of the relationship with her. We lost a child some time ago, I was gutted at the time but right now I believe it to have been a blessing. I know I need to get away and stay away from her, but I find it hard sometimes and I still think about her a lot. I know 14 days is not long and can feel everyday the addiction I had to her and get angry at myself for still feeling so attached to her. She literally used me terribly the last time we were together. Was scares me the most is my general fear of women, and whether I will ever have the confidence again to go out there and try and meet new people.
You state you had an addiction to your ex. In that case, take the No Contact rule “one day at a time.” Celebrate each day you get through without contacting her or responding to her fishing expeditions. When you make it through the first month, go out and do something fun with your friends. Remind yourself of all the ways your life is better without her.
Forgive YOURSELF for being taken in by her. You may never be as initially trusting of women again, but that’s okay. There are a lot of predators in the world. Put trust in someone after she or demonstrates that they’re worthy of it.
“Uncovering the hidden gem” reminds me of a phrase by Gertrude Stein, “There’s no ‘there’ there.” If you keep looking for something or someone that doesn’t exist, you’ll only frustrate yourself even more and have greater disappointment.
No matter how sweet, sexy and wonderful she may have seemed at the beginning doesn’t matter. That person doesn’t exist. It was an illusion created to ensnare you. Searching for that role she played initially or waiting in vain for her to reappear is a waste of your time and energy.
The most confusing part is that for the first 10 years of our relationship (together and then married) we were the picture of a healthy relationship. It is hard to describe how in tune we seemed to be, at least from my perspective. Over the past year she continues to tell me not to talk about the past or use it as a measuring stick against the present. It is like my wife has morphed into a different person, one that I don’t like most of the time. I made the mistake of posing the question “Do you think if you acted like this when we were first together I would have stayed with or married you?”. Needless to say the ground shook and the sky turned dark at the thought that I didn’t like her current behavior.
My favorite example of the changed behavior is when I attempt to be affectionate, she rejects me and then gets angry saying that I “set her up for failure” by attempting to be affectionate with her at the wrong time. It would be great if she had an LED or some sort of gage that indicated when it was the “right time”.
How old is your wife? Is she going through the change? If she did change all of a sudden after 10 years, perhaps there’s a medical reason. Otherwise, maybe she’s fallen out of love. Is it possible she’s having an affair—physical or emotional?
Dr. T – Thanks for the reply. My wife is 41 and the change is possible, but god forbid that is discussed. We spent several sessions with a marriage counselor and when the suggestion was made to her that she might be going through the change, she dismissed it. When she started to withdraw from me about a year ago, I began monitoring her and when I questioned her about the emails and text messages with a specific individual she attempted to turn everything back on me. I am currently at a loss on how to handle the situation since she says for the most part she just isn’t in the mood 99% of the time. We are rarely affectionate and I am to the point where I am tired of being rejected. Despite, our relationship we live a very good life. I truly believe that she only stays with me because our sons would blame her if we split, our money situation is good, and she would have to work if we divorced.
It is such a relief to find out what has been happening to me all these years. I love my wife dearly but have finally made up my mind that I can no longer tolerate the abuse I have been suffering. I’m away from home at the moment the longer the better frankly, but while I’m trying to make money after a long period of unemployment. She is on holiday in the far east! Although 4000 miles away still tries to bully by txt. I dont have the support structure that you suggest that is so vital so being away is the only way I can cope with the stress. However I love my wife to pieces but the number of points I agreed to in your quiz poss 90% frightened me. Is there any treatment for individuals who suffer this condition or is it a hopeless case. Just in case I’ve started to formulate in my own mind an escape plan, but until the finance is available its just a plan.I’m so glad as not to be alone with this problem. Keep up the good work. NickJ
Welcome to the community, brother! I am in the EXACT same boat as you: Been laid off now for quite some time (Oct. 2008), doing what I have to do to make a few bucks as well, and YES, finances are dictating my escape plan time frame…BUT, make no mistake, once I get back on my feet, I’m gone.
Nick, I think if you polled most of the guys here, we ALL loved our wives…and I’d bet that many still do, but in a different way than a spouse…kinda like a sibling. Hell, I have 4 sisters who I love very much, but there’s no way on earth I’d be able to live with them 24/7. Once you’ve suffered through years of emotional, mental, and in some cases, physical abuse, just because you care deeply about that person doesn’t mean you love them…after all, a HEALTHY spousal relationship, a/k/a a GOOD marriage, implies a certain amount of MUTUAL respect, and RECIPROCAL love. Abuse in ANY form does not equal love, period.
Hang in there, buddy…but, do not let your finances ultimately dictate your life. I do not know of your “support structure” particulars, but if it comes down to it, do you have any family or friends who could take you in for a month or so if things got that bad?
Mike , Thanks for the advise, currently I do have friends and family that I can stay with but at the end it does not seem like a solution! My BPD/NPD wife if the diagnosis is correct has for some time belittled them. They stay in the background and have very little to do with my present circumstances. At the moment I’ve taken a job in the middle east and am hoping that I will be kept very busy until well after christmas. My wife is currently in asia Bali with friends but still manages to send vitriolic emails and texts. When I Skyped her because she was in company it was all sweetness and light. Yes in my mind she is a victim of BPD/NCD something in her past I know not what. Therefore as an unwilling victim of such a condition, with me loving her how can I possibly walk away? I realise that ultimately I might have to for my own sanity but is there in all reality no treatment for her condition. NickJ
Mr. E says
Yes, treatment is possible. If she admits there’s a problem. And if she’s willing to go through painful therapy for years.
How can you walk away? Because of this: just because someone was mean to her does not give her the right to be mean to you.
There was a gag like that on TV, in which a character would be horribly cruel, and then when everyone was shocked and hurt she’d say “My parents were mean to me,” and they’d all relax and forgive her and tell her it was OK.
It’s “funny” because it’s true.
It’s not your job to heal her. I think you’ll find your friends and family are all waiting for you to come to your senses. They’ll help you get back on your feet.
How can you walk away? You realize that your life, sanity and self-respect depend upon it and you just do it. So your wife belittled and pushed your family away? Now is an excellent time to reach out to them. Tell them whats going on and ask them for their support. Tell them how much pain you’re in. You will probably be surprised how quickly they open their arms to you.
Now, as for the “I’m still in love with her” thing. The relationship you describe is many things, but it’s not love. It’s part brainwashing, part Stockholm Syndrome, part fear of loss and need for approval, but it ain’t love. When you go to that place in your mind that cries out, “but I love her!” Give yourself a mental shake and begin reality testing the situation. Challenge yourself on this one.
Odds are you’re seeking her love and approval to make up for some childhood injury. However, you’re barking up the wrong tree. This kind of woman won’t heal old wounds; she re-opens them and cuts deeper.
You can do this However, you need to stop fighting for your wife and start fighting for yourself and recovering your life.
My estranged wife meets the criterion of being a crazy bitch. I have seen two distinctly different women. I never knew which one was going to show up. One was sexy and appealing. The other withheld sex, to the point I did not know how to approach her. She told me that she wasn’t happy and felt like it was my responsibility for her happiness. She left while I was at work, not once but twice. I know that she is not good for me, but at times I still want to be with her. Its like I need to prove my value to her. Is it normal behavior on my part?
Is it normal behavior to want to be valued? Yes. It’s even normal to want the approval of someone who denies your value. However, what you need to realize, is, she’s never going to give you that approval. She’s never going to value you. There is nothing -NOTHING- you can do that will “ultimately” satisfy her. You may get lucky, and do something right, and feel valued for an afternoon, an evening, and a day or two, maybe a week if you’re lucky. Then it’ll be a whole new set of hoops to jump through, and a whole new list of demands (or more than likely, the same old demands with a few new ones tacked on).
You will fail.
Now, then. Is this failure indicative of you being a bad person?
Let me repeat that – NO.
You will fail because the game is not designed for you to win. The reference is elsewhere a few times on this site, but think of Lucy and Charlie Brown, when Lucy pulls away the football. Has Lucy ever let Charlie Brown kick the football? No. You are playing with Lucy here. She sets the rules, and they will change at her whim, usually from minute to minute.
YOU CANNOT WIN.
THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT.
NOR IS IT INDICATIVE OF CHARACTER FLAWS ON YOUR PART.
You have tremendous value, for putting up with this crap as long as you have. She sees this value, and will continue to suck the life out of you, until there is nothing left.
Get out of the loop.
You will be happier. You don’t need this. You don’t deserve this. This is not love. This is not a relationship.
I don’t know how to put it any simpler than that.
Good luck, brother. Take charge. Get out. Find the life AND the love that you truly deserve.
Because this ain’t it.
Hi Kev and Norm,
Kev has given you some excellent advice. I encourage everyone to commit these sentences to memory:
YOU CANNOT WIN.
THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT.
NOR IS IT INDICATIVE OF CHARACTER FLAWS ON YOUR PART.
Joe Parker says
Mr. E says
Hey folks, could I get another reality check?
Last night I went to hug her and I thought she was going to pinch me because of the way she reached for me, so I moved in such a way to keep her from doing so.
She got angry at me for not trusting her.
That’s crazy, right?
Also: “She sets the rules, and they will change at her whim, usually from minute to minute”
Mine even used to have a name for the ever-changing rules that applied to me and not her.
Hi Mr E,
I’ve gotta ask—what did she call the ever-changing rules that applied to you, but not her?
Mr. E says
It’s kind of a disappointing story, but they were called “[her name] rules.”
EG. I say “Wait, so you can have raw onions on your food, but I can’t?”
she said, “Yep, it’s a [her name] rule”
I once tried explaining to her that something or other was a “Mr. E Rule.” Silly Mr. E! There’s no such thing! 😉
Howudoin? Been awhile!
Those “ever-changing rules” are what starts the adversity, and it will drive a man absolutely insane!!! You know, when the arguments ensued in my x-relationship, it was never about the orignal subject.What engaged me into the arguments was the rhetoric, the lack of courtesy for her to “think before she spoke”(impulsive statements), double-standards and the semantics. Her “rules” only applied at a given moment, and of course, were subject to change as it related to a given situation. I remember my X-N went so far as to say, “I want you to adopt MY way of thinking!” How bold is that!! Was this to say my opinions or perceptions would no longer have merit!? I got the double-whammy, as you may recall, my X-N was a “lawyer-litigator”, trained to argue! 11 months later and I’m still in awe about what I put up with,..WOW!
In a normal relationship, we should respect one anothers opinion, or agree to disagree and leave it at that. I don’t especially like the term “rules” as it has a connotation towards “disobedience.” This of course is certainly the mind-set of these crazy women. We as men are simply disobedient in their mind, therefore, the rules must change to fit the situation. In a normal relationship, despite the oneness a couple may have, we each have boundaries (not rules) that should be respected. We are different not only in gender, we are also different in values, perceptions, needs,etc., and normal couples learn to cope and honor those boundaries. I have to laugh when I hear couples discuss the “toilet seat” issues. This is one of the most common and most diliberated issues between a man and woman. A woman may say, “how hard is it to put the toilet seat down when you’re done.” A man may say,”how hard is it for you to put the toilet seat down before you use it.” This of course, is simple for most normal couples to initiate a resolve, however, a “crazy bitch” will never let a man live it down. He could gold-plate that toilet seat, polish it daily, and she would still bitch!
Disobedience applies to pets,children, and law breakers. In such cases, there is always a superior. She is the superior, and the man is the pet dog, the child and the law(rule) breaker. ALWAYS!! It will forever remain the same, no matter what the man does to appease her. We as men try to understand them because our logic and rationale supersedes the reality of our situation. When our logic and reality short circuit, we divert to our emotional side, and then become entrenched/entranced in what we believe is love, all because we no longer choose to follow the path of logic and rationalization. It’s not love we feel,rather, it’s a replacement for our anger and frustrations. It’s what we believe makes us feel better about ourselves and the relationship. It must be love, right!?! Instead of convincing ourselves(via logic and rationale)that we’re in a bad relationship, we create excuses for the “crazy bitch” and ourselves as well. End result, we have lost our sense of reality. She is now in full control!!
Rambling again Dr. T. Just want these guys to see it for what it really is, the epitomy of “mind-F@#King!”
Wow, Melove54…in a greeting, 3 paragraphs, and one short sentence, you have absolutely NAILED the essence of the what and why behind our relationships!
Big-time kudos and good karma to you!
Oh, one last thing…in no way would I consider your posts to be “rambling”; rather, they’re intelligent & eloquent while being very down-to-earth. I have always enjoyed reading your posts!
I appreciate your graciousness, and likewise, your contributions to Dr. T’s site I’m sure, have opened some of our fellow victims eyes. Salud!!
This describes by soon-to-be ex-wife to the tee. When I met her in San Antonio, she was sexy etc. then she went through all of the BPD stages and totally flipped on me six months ago by filing for divorce-on our 7th wedding anniversary. At first I was sad because we have two young children but now I am actually feeling that she’s doing me a favor. I get a new start on life. She will never get better. I tried honestly everything and I did love her but this person now just seems vindictive, mean… a pure bitch/witch. She has no way to receive love or affection from my friends or family. She has no friends and isolates herself in her new apartment (she took all of the stuff out of our house by falsely accusing me of abuse my hitting herself to get a bloody nose) It has all been about control – even sex. Sex was great but she used this to punish and try to control. I hope she will get the help she needs one day but this is doubtful. She has attacked my integrity by accusing me of false abuse and completely lied in court. She has custody of our children right now and wouldn’t even allow me an extra day over New Year’s to be with them. I can’t believe I’m stuck dealing with this bitch for over 20 years. The good thing is that my daughter’s love me and I can tell that they can’t wait to see me/spend time. I know that they sense that something is wrong with this bitch. I wish I had caught this earlier before I procreated (but my daugthers are normal- more like me) She is high-functioning and an elementary teacher. She thinks her shit doesn’t stink. Does this just get worse over time with no treatment. I’ve caught her really slipping lately like forgetting to put shoes on the baby and forgetting socks for my oldest when it’s cold outside. What the hell is going on? She gives me the silent treatment and creates these drama situations (daugher has H1N1…car getting repossessed etc. when there is no emergency– we are going through a sep/divorce) I’m glad to be out of her loony world. My only comfort is that the girls are in school with normal people, I see them every midweek for dinner and every other weekend now. I also stop by their school to see them and read to them in the mornings before work.
Free at last says
Hi all —
I’m five months out of a painful and turbulent relationship with a woman who fits the above criteria so well, except for the lipstick, and I am still recovering. It sure takes a lot of energy out of you to do EVERYTHING wrong and to be constantly harassed for being too selfish, too independent, too concerned for everything except for her. If she’d even hear my text message chime on my cell phone once during a weekend, she’d snarl, “Who’s that, your FAN CLUB?!” Yet she herself heard from her family 15 to 20 times a day. She attempted to isolate me, degrade me, and harass me every time she was unhappy with herself–which was always. She once said, while holding me at night, “I don’t want ANYONE to be close to you but me,” as my mind flashed to that scene in MISERY where Kathy Bates breaks James Caan’s ankles to keep him in bed and beholden to his “biggest fan.” My blood ran cold. Luckily the relationship lasted less than 2 years, and I ended it last summer after our fights became too much to bear, but it still felt like an eternity. I truly feel sympathetic for everyone who has been with their girlfriends/wives for years, or who have children with them. I can’t imagine what that must be like.
Although I got out to save my own sanity, I also told her, “You’re obviously very unhappy with me, so I want you to have the chance to be happy with someone else.” It was the leverage I needed to feel like I wasn’t just abandoning her as she always feared, even if I just had to walk to the mailbox to mail bills. Even though I know that she probably will never be happy, it was impossible for her to argue and claim that she really was happy with me. So the altruistic notion of wanting her to “be happy” without me was good leverage to leave her. Nevertheless, she blames me for abandoning her and never wants to speak to me again, but as far as I am concerned, that is a gift. I occasionally have bad dreams and I occasionally need to journal and talk with someone about it, but otherwise leaving her was the healthiest thing I have done for myself in ages.
Certainly, it was painful to leave and I was depressed for a while, but the depression came from having been in the mindfuck-of-a-relationship in the first place, not in departing. The recovery process encompassed all the normal stages of grief. You really ARE grieving, for the illusions you nurtured that she would “get better” or that her positive traits would somehow balance out the emotional minefield of life with her. You’re also grieving the time and energy you wasted trying to save her instead of yourself. Even before you leave, allow yourself to grieve. It’s normal. Your own real life returns to you like blood and warmth flooding back into a frostbitten area. It’s painful, but that’s because you’re ALIVE after all, and not just some extension of her need to control your every waking (and sleeping) move. (The “hand puppet” that others have mentioned is a good metaphor here.)
In the meanwhile, do not let her fully isolate you from other people, even as she will be threatened by anything that’s valuable to you–your friendships, your family, your interests, your career, your time alone. Find ways to reach out to people who care for you, even if you’ve been off-the-map from these people for a while. My ex harassed me anytime I had contact with anyone else, but it only made me more resilient not to let these people go, because I knew that they have a more sincere concern for me than she ever would. And, quite honestly, I knew that my bond with them would outlast our relationship. So if you haven’t had the nerve to leave yet but you are strongly considering it, begin by reaching out to those you care about and who care for you. Tell them you need their love and support. True friends and family will still love and support you even if they haven’t heard from you in a long time–they’ll be glad to have you back. You’re going to need the support, especially because your self-esteem is often shot to hell after any amount of time negotiating the woman you’re with.
In my readings about borderline personality disorder, I learned that it can take years to treat, if at all, because the patient often refuses to accept that their own behaviors are what’s (predictably) pushed others away. They’ll always blame others for leaving/abandoning them, as their own jealousy-traits had always feared would happen. Their jealousy/territoriality/fear of abandonment becomes a self fulfilling prophesy, although they VERY RARELY see it this way, and often only after a LONG time in therapy. Many therapists have difficulty treating people with BPD and some even refuse to do it, because the patients won’t accept responsibility for their own behavior (and instead project back onto the therapist, and all that other stuff that you might know well from being in a relationship with her.) My readings and research made me realize that if professionals have a hard time treating these people, how can we mere mortals do it, when a therapist doesn’t have to live with a patient’s passive-aggressive suspicion 24/7, between manipulative bouts of “affection”?
I am very self-protective, so we fought like crazy. She often got angry at me when I’d get angry at her unreasonable anger towards me. (Sorry if this sounds a little like the “Who’s on first” routine.) However, as a close friend wrote me when I explained what was going on, “It is not possible to be non-reactive with someone so completely reactive! That just means you’re dominated. Shit. She does sound nuts.” I couldn’t have said it better.
And although I am taking some healthy time away from romantic relationships in order to do the creative/professional/friends-related activities that I had to sideline while I was with her, I also believe what another friend said to me. And so I will also say it to you: “You will find your true love, a love that won’t hurt you or drive you crazy. I just know it. :)”
Just a thought, how do I make sure that its not me that is the one causing all the problems? I know that all the bullying that I think I’m a victim of is real enough to me but what about the outside world. Could I be ill myself and not realise it. Is there any kind of self sanity check that can be done!?
Not sure if this is the right place to post but I need to talk to someone.
I have been with my wife for over 5 years (married 18mths). But right now I have locked myself in my office and feeling a mixture of down and battered, but also strangely positive.
You see, I have read this and other sites on abuse over the past few days and the penny seems to have dropped. Right now, I am reeling from the fact she once again wants a divorce, but this time, I think the reeling is from me realizing it is for the best, and for my sanity.
I have been suffering abuse for about 4 years, bordering to right now that the only safe place is my office where I can lock it from both ends (it’s at the far end of my house). Let me run down to what has happened recently:
1) My wife never (and I mean NEVER) leaves me alone. I work from home and I need to work. I run my own business and do well…..I work so she can look after our two children full time. Sometimes it involves excess (18+) hrs a day but I am always at home. I work hard, especially since we had children, to give them the best start in life. No one goes without, ever.
For the past 6 months I have had to help her look after the kids……fair enough, but to the point that I could not work. I could not earn a penny for 6 months so had to sell one of my assets, a 2009 mobile home on a Royal Park. I paid the bills we had here, plus also her debts (total over $10k).
The next day (new years eve) she tried to kick me out.
2) Her rages are enormous – I always try to talk to her and say you are being unfair – but then she goes into one blaming me, big time. This happens every single day. Blaming me for ruining her life (I did not want kids in the first place but love them now of course)
She gave up work, and I have had to pay over $80,000 of her debts in the past 24 months….many from before I knew here (no idea where she spent the money). She blames me for earning to much as she likes to go 50/50 on expenses and said she could not keep up.
Am I wrong in thinking be grateful, I will give you a great life, just be my wife and look after the kids? She does not have to work, nor does she want to. I sorted her out financially, still do but its never enough.
3) I bought a big house, she wanted it, but now she hates it and wants another one, but the an hour later she wants a divorce.
4) She called my mum about 6 months ago and told her to ‘eff’ off. She told me not to speak to her as she was a ‘beey’ and I have not since. I also am selective and have one true lifelong friend. She said he tried it on with her (which I no longer believe as he has always liked rake thin girls and my wife is a little plump)…..which means I have no one to speak to.
5) She is on the phone CONSTANTLY……telling her friends how horrible I am…..yet all I do is work to support the family . I kinda hate her now so do not want to sleep with her, do not want to spend time with her, and certainly do not want to talk to her. The reason?
She talks TO me and commands me. No matter what I say it is wrong. She twists EVERYTHING.
6) She is pregnant now, and accused me of drinking the other night……yet the next day she admitted she was drinking…….and then denied she accused me of drinking!
7) She hides things and says “I told you to do that” when she definately did not. She is so clever with words, like a lawyer, but seems to use them on a mega destructive basis.
8) She is already on tamazapam, diazapam and god knows what, but is currently off them due to the pregnancy. However, she has ALWAYS been like this.
9) She yells at the kids but acts like an angel in front of others.
Now I admit I am not perfect….sometimes I get peed off and may throw something in anger….but I guess this a normal reaction to abnormal goading – its all the time!
I work like crazy but do not spend a whole lot of time with my family, but I am always at home so its not as if I am not always there. I help her (always, every 5 minutes, get this, get that…but apparantly I dont help!
I am 35 and a good man. My wife is 29 and I am desparate. She wants me out of the house yet a few hrs ago wanted a new kitchen…….I have earned over $1m in the past 2 years but am nearly broke. I am stuck in my office from her rages.
Today was for me buying her some clothes. We pulled up at the store and about to go in, then she said I was unfaithful (total load of rubbish, never have been or would dream of it…..the abuse has put me off sex anyway)………and we went home……
Then she moans she has no clothes and blames me. Had enough, totally. I am a good looking guy with a lot to give, she does not deserve it.
If this seems like a hate letter its not….I guess the ball has struck and I finally realize that divorce is right…..there comes a time but I could do with some advice / support. I have worked like crazy for my home that I about to leave, and I love my kids like mad…….its a hard road to take but does it sound like I am doing the right thing?
Do I sound like I am bad or wrong?
Or have I got stockholm syndrome?
I keep questioning myself but the abuse really is that bad, adn reading this and other sites has really woken me up to it. I cannot even have a drink or anything anymore, I just have to sit in and work.
I need a life…….comments or help anyone, I am about to go through with it!
Please read through the above letter slowly. I just re-read it and realize how desparate it sounds. I have so much to say and have not said anything in years. The letter sounds kiinda broken which I guess is what I am. I even recorded some stuff the other day, was going to put it on my website so I could get some true comments on my life, kind of big brother style, but she saw a recording and found and deleted them all.
What to do?
It doesn’t seem like a hate letter at all. It sounds like a self-realization of the reality of what you’ve been going through. I remember this time and space well. The moment when I saw the light. The moment of clarity. The realization that it’s time to get out of the situation.
After spending a year chipping away (at first) and then launching an all out nuclear war on my soul, my ex decided that it was time for us to break up. I called her bluff. At the time I was still blaming myself for everything, but I still remember my words to her: “If freedom is what you want, then I will give it to you, as it’s the only gift I have left.”
What I didn’t realize at the time, was that I was giving the gift to myself.
(Later, she insisted that if I’d “only” asked her to stay, she would have. Thankfully, I did not).
As for your situation?
It’s time to leave.
You know that. She will not “magically” get better. She will not change. You will not “win” her back, as there’s nothing you can do that will facilitate this happening. As I’ve said elsewhere on this site, THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF AN INHERENT CHARACTER FLAW IN YOU, NOR IS IT YOUR “FAULT.”
You’ve got a bit of a tough time ahead of you. Divorce, and kids are going to complicate things. Additionally, she will try everything she can to ruin you, and to make you out to be the bad guy to everyone you know.
She is lying. She is wrong. You know who you really are.
Find a good lawyer who is skilled in high-conflict divorces. Be ready. Be firm. You will survive this. You will have wounds. You will have injuries. But you WILL SURVIVE.
I’d also advice going to a therapist to help you sort through the shit that she has filled your mind with. This is essential.
You’ve got a tough road ahead of you, but you can do it. I’ve been out for just over a year. I know that what I’m saying may be difficult to believe. I know you feel beaten down. But take advantage of the clarity you’re now having. Save yourself. A year ago, I was completely unable to function – I couldn’t remember to eat, and some days I made it halfway to work before I realized that I was still wearing my pajamas. Really.
I’m still working on things, but a year later, I am writing from a place of strength. I’m not all better (maybe never will be), but I am betTER.
One thing I know. If I’d stayed, I would have died. Either by my own hand, or from the stress (actually, one of the things my ex demanded was that I “fight for the relationship or die trying”).
You’ll live through this. It’s going to be Hell, but it will only make you stronger.
Get your life back.
Oh and another thing. I have to sell my dogs.
She wanted them against my wishes soon after we got together. I looked after them, walked them, paid for them and got to really love them.
Now they have to go. She makes them ‘live’ in the bar area and by the pool table. I have to sell them as they are dirty……they might kill the kids (?)……paranoia anyone…….jesus I am reading this site with vigour……….
I am down but definately not out (you can tell I am an optimist in my past life, and will get that back!)
I am NOT crazy, I am NOT making it up, and I AM a good man.
Sounds right, last night she woke me up screaming at me for snoring, and now she’s mad at me all day. Would showing this to her help, or just piss her off?
Mr. E says
It will piss her off. Don’t show her this site or anything similar – she WILL use it against you.
Agreed. She may also adopt some of the language and accuse you of being the controlling abuser. It’s probably not a good idea.
I figured that. I’ve heard “You think I’m crazy, that’s just your cop out for everything” so many times is sad. Funny thing is I only use it when she blows up about the super petty stuff.
I have to say this sight has been extremely helpful. I read a lot of it before work, and while at work talked via text about the snoring. This time I wasn’t unarmed. When you’re prepared for this you can be in control, “OK that’s fine, but we need to finish this topic before we move on,” etc. The best was when she changed history because now I had it in writing. “Well you’re the one who’s pissed off, I was over it and you brought it up.” “Actually, babe, I just read what I said and I said, lets go to Macy’s on Tuesday to buy you some new shoes, and you said whatever ass hole do whatever you want.” She didn’t fight that point, but decided to act like she wasn’t mad anymore but totally hurt because this time I refused to apologize for yelling back to her. “Well I’ve made my peace, it’s up to you now”
The end is near.
The worst one was one time we were walking home from a bar, (both had been drinking) and she stops walking right in the middle of the street so she could tell me something. I told her to walk and talk as it was 2 am, cold and she was standing in the middle of the street. This set her off into one of her moods, she told me she was going to kill herself as a punishment to me. This snapped me out of my emotions and I started talking calmly to her, to get her to relax. She just kept screaming and screaming, telling me to leave her alone. How can I leave her alone after that threat? I didn’t, so she found a kitchen knife and attacked me with it. (I didn’t get hurt, she just stabbed the mattress, but still)
She’s never apologized, at least not sincerely, “I said I’m sorry, why do bring it up” but worse then that it’s my fault. “I told you to leave me alone and I didn’t know what else to to”
How do you find support for this? You can’t tell your friends and family this or they’ll just think you have this fucked up life. It’s looking like the only thing to do is leave before it gets worse, but it’s hard when her rage is a disorder. I wouldn’t leave her for being an epileptic. When she’s not “the other girl” we have a happy, healthy relationship.
Just out of curiosity does she have a lot of the symptoms of BPD or NPD? She seems from your post as she could possibly be Bipolar moreso. I was in a relationship with someone who was diagnosed by a Dr. as being bipolar who did such a similar thing, I just wondered. It is the paranoia aspect of it that made me wonder I think. Does she rage often or is it more hyper behavior or religious delusion & depression? All My Best.
I’m not sure. We both thought it was bipolar or manic depression. And this this the weird part, before we got engaged there was always the happy beginning, we’d be at a party and she would be the center of attention, dancing with other girls etc, and then the second we got home she would freak out at me. That was the knife thing. Now though, it looks more like BPD because the aren’t alcohol related. I come home and and accidentally startle her and she doesn’t like being startled so she chews me out and we sleep in different rooms until I apologize for “not respecting her privacy” because I should have known to knock first before going into my own apartment.
Sorry just had to vent there.
Anyways the answer to your question is I don’t know enough to answer that.
Mr. E says
“It’s looking like the only thing to do is leave before it gets worse, but it’s hard when her rage is a disorder. I wouldn’t leave her for being an epileptic. When she’s not “the other girl” we have a happy, healthy relationship.”
She went after you with a knife. That is abuse – there’s no question. A loving person does NOT try to stab/threaten to stab the person they love. Get out.
Yes, she (probably) has a disorder. It doesn’t matter, because she treats you like dirt. Understand that “personality disorder” is clinical language for “raging asshole.” Don’t worry about her diagnosis – that is HER problem.
You can not help her. You do need to take care of yourself. Get out before she actually stabs you.
Regarding “when she’s not the other girl” – the girl chasing you around with a knife, standing in traffic, saying she’s going to kill herself, and screaming at you for snoring IS the real girl. The nice girl is a facade.
There is support here, and your friends and family will probably surprise you with their support.
You almost made me snarf my morning avocado shake:
Understand that “personality disorder” is clinical language for “raging asshole.” Thanks for my first laugh of the day.
On a more serious note, Mr E is absolutely right, Rich. A knife is physical abuse. From your description, she appears to be incredibly emotionally abusive, too.
Conditions such as epilepsy and diabetes are not the same as a charterological disorder. I think personality disorders should be renamed “characterological” disorders because people with them have very poor characters. Epileptics and diabetics suffer from medical conditions and, unless they have characterological issues, do not lash out at and abuse their loved ones. You’re living with a rattlesnake. Sure it’s her nature to strike out at you, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay or that you need to be patient and forgiving. It means that if you don’t want to live under near constant fear of when she’ll strike next, you need to stop living with and exposing yourself to a rattlesnake.
Many women like your gf seem great in the beginning. This is an act to lure you in close. Once they feel secure in your attachment the mask and the and the gloves (and in your case, the blade scabbard) come off and you see the true person underneath the false sweetness and light. People like your gf are emotional con artists and predators. Please protect yourself and get out.
Amen Dr.T and Mr.E!! Intimacy with a knife is not what I call alluring!! Take care everyone!
I’ve had a look at your quiz and was able to answer yes to most of them. the others were I don’t know”
I’m not sure if this is the correct place to let this all out,and if not, apologies.
We met 11.5 years ago, we were both married at the time.instantly the sex, the adoration, the need to be together was intense. this affair went on for a few months, until i moved interstate, i then decided i wanted to try and repair the damage i had cause to my marriage and to my wife at the time. I was doing my best and our marriage was recovering. Then one day, the woman i had the intense affair with contacted me and i told her how i was going with restoring my marriage. She told me her marriage was over, and i believed her. I felt guilty and blamed myself.
She then arrived the following week, and blew my repair work out of the water.
So we moved in together January 2000, and it began. Subtle digs at something i had no recollection of doing. Telling me i was controlling and manipulating, and it went on. Some times were just perfect, and other times i recall just looking for somewhere to hide. she left me many times, saying how horrible i was and how my issues were too deep for her to be able to handle. We went into counseling and things got better for a while. She got herself into a psychology course with a degree at the end of it. And i noticed that her attacks became deeper, more psychologically based and i found that i was being diagnosed with every trait know to the universe, and abused and blamed for it. She re-engaged with her high school sweetheart 2 years ago,as time went on, she was making calls and denying it, hiding at parks etc to call him.She denied any attachment to him, and blamed me for not trusting her.
Between April 2009 and december 2009 I noticed that her attacks were more intense more personal, and that everything i said on any subject was instantly wrong. And her version was the right one. She is never wrong.I shut every feeling down and totally disconected from her and myself. I know now it was to protect myself, because the day she left, everything started to return. I felt safe to have my own thoughts and feelings. She left Dec 3 2009, a week later she was dating, and a week after that her school sweetheart miraculously appeared and stayed with her a week. I won’t go into details, it’s not really important. She sends me text messages either abusing me and telling me it’s all my fault, or kind loving gentle messages asking me to come over and have sex with her.
But 3 things stand out like an exploded land mine.
she sent me a text message telling me i drove her into the arms of another man because i didn’t trust her. And she felt so liberated from my controlling ways
She told me it was my fault she walked all over me for all those years, because i let her.
She is now doing with this school sweetheart exactly what she did to me when we first met.
She’s away interstate for a month now with him, and i am doing as much as i can for me before she comes back.
The more i read, the more it makes sense, but is still so hard to get my head around it
She believes everything she does is right, because the universe and her angels and spirit guides tell her it is right.the cards tell her she is right in everything she does.I asked her a week ago why she sent me that message about driving her into the arms of another man.
She said “because i wanted to hurt you”
Well it worked
Here’s something new.
As i was going in to see my therapist yesterday, i received a txt message from my SO.
She is 3000 kms away with her “new man” the txt reads “mwahhh”
I spoke about it with my therapist, and he said. She’s over there with him,and she’s rubbing your nose in it with that message. she’s showing you absolutely no respect.
Why aren’t you angry ?
I answered.. “i don’t know”
Why am i not angry about how she’s still treating me?
Can anyone offer anything here?
David Lebrocq says
You are not angry because when she sent the text you realized that there is no reason to be angry.
This individual is so shallow, so pathetic, and so uncaring and incapable of simple human decency that they actually feel in some warped way justified in sending a text to ‘try to rub your nose in it’.
You’re not angry because you realize that acting out with such shallow behaviour is no way to live, and a person who is capable of acting that way isn’t someone you want affecting your life or in your life at all for that matter.
It is a shame that so many relationships end up in the trash can because of emotional immaturity. Although I would seek other professional examples of BPD or NPD before finalizing a divorce over this quiz. If you cannot find any other means of taking back your relationship [and the Pants], separation may be the only alternative. I blame most of male/female woes on feminism, the ‘acceptance’ of homosexuality as a norm, and a crippling reliance on technology at the expense of our health and brain usage. Even in college I see professors [overpaid preachers] emasculate men of all generations, masculin-izing women today and sexualizing our children on a daily basis. Men do not know how to act like men anymore and women are brainwashed into thinking they really do not need men for anything, not even sex or reproduction. Basically, you men have been usurped by a testosterone-hating sociological machine. For the women I can say that many have no clue that this has happened and end up as unhappy as today’s men. It is a twisted view of reality, but real it is. The feminine and masculine role needs to be rebalanced to THE WAY IT WAS-before all this gender equality came about. it is not about a power exchange, it is about natural male leadership in exchange for feminine admiration and compassion. Everyone has seem to have forgotten what their genitals look like!
P.S. I love to wear fire engine red lipstick. It is economical and my fiancee loves it.
Tyron Parsons says
Thank God someone in your field recognizes this epidemic in America. My ex is a Jewish,Swedish,Sicillian,Athiest,Feminist who is everything you posted in that quiz. Simply put, I have been denied access to my Daughter for some 18 yrs. My Daughter is now 18. I have recordings and journals documenting all the lies,abuse etc I endured after the split. It is my word against hers as far as what happened during our time together before I started documenting everything. My question is, how might I establish a relationship with my Daughter who has been braninwahsed against me by my ex?
The most hurtful part is when they turn it all around to make you the bad guy.
I’m trying to get out of the “victim mindset” that allows these Psychopaths to do anything to us, all the while shaming us into complancency and ineffectuality.
They have decived themselves into false victimhood and think as a victim of some imagined slight, they in turn can do anything to anyone because, they are the real victim. too bad the courts block swift correction of these psychopaths.The courts are run by these victims and are a big part of the problem. bunch of wankers, every single one of them . parents most likely wankers as well.
Yesterday, before I accidentally ended up to this web page, I was bored to my wife.We have been together about 20 years and sometimes the the life seem boring.
However, noticing that my wife did not get any “bitch points” and reading what kind of hell the life could be with such bitchy women, my eyes were opened wide seeing the real value of my wife!! My love for my wife was rekindled to a flame! Sometimes man ought to see hell in order to see what he got!
Same time I feel sorry for you guys with a bad marriage. Really and honestly. I hope you all find a good solution to your marital problems.
This is really a great commentary by you. Its easy to get stuck in your own world and join others together but your breath of fresh air really is nice to hear. Best Wishes
Wow, what a great resource this site is! I have young sons of dating age, and they are aware of what a minefield it is out there. Aubbie hit the nail on the head with the femminism connection. Femminists are so dum they don’t realize that their quest for ‘equality’ has played right into the hands of all the young testosterone filled young men wanting to sow their oats with as many partners as possible…it’s like picking fruit…there’s so much of it you gorge on it but feel sick after. This scenario has allowed the sex with no strings to become the norm as young women seem to embrace the ‘sluts r cool’ theory…the boys love the sex with no strings, but lament the fact that if and when they want to ‘settle down’ they’ll probably have to look for traditional women in the third world to find one that knows what being a ‘woman’ means. Thank you Dr. T for helping all these hurting men out there…bout time someone spoke up for the men!!!
Thanks for the support, albertagreekgirl. It’s always appreciated—especially from another woman.
I read with interest your original article, then all the heartbreaking comments. It really piqued my interest because a few years ago, (2004) a shrink hired by the child welfare system in my province, tested me, assessed me (at great cost to the taxpayers) and concluded that my final diagnosis was BPD. I was astounded, and horrified and really didn’t think I fit the description at all. At that time I was extremely frustrated to the point of going insane, and nearly having a nervous breakdown, but that was because of the out of control living situation I was in. Not because there was something ‘wrong’ with me.
I was married in 1987 very young (age 21) to a man 7 years older than me who was looking for a ‘traditional wife’. We both attended a church promoting the ‘traditional’ family. Due to several birth control failures we ended up with 5 sons. My ex was a real conflict avoider,(preferring to ‘think’ about things for hours or days even) which nearly drove me insane, because he refused to deal with any and all issues that came up regarding the rearing and discipline of the kids, and since the first 4 sons are 4 years apart in age, (including twins) when the first one hit adolescence, the shit really hit the fan.
I was expecting my ex to be the ‘traditional’ disciplinarian, and deal with his increasingly out of control teenager with some appropriate consequences (he was skipping school, smoking weed, etc.) When my ex put his head in the sand instead of being the ‘man’, this lead to escalation between myself and the 13 year old which resulted in my hitting him in the head with my keys to protect myself form being physically attacked. He regularly called me names (the kid) and swore at me, which of course I greeted with an escalation of consequences (and a lot of yelling and swearing), and the end result was that my role as the mother and nurturer was usurped. I had become an out of control shrew…frustrated to the nth degree. Nervous breakdown was right around the corner.
After the key incident, I guess my ex figured that someone was going to end up dead if he didn’t do SOMETHING, so instead of trying to work with me, he went to a mens shelter and claimed he was being abused by me emotionally, and accused me of abusing my children physically and emotionally. Child welfare stepped in and put me under a supervision order and had me removed from my home and my youngest child then age 4 was left in the care of a bunch of weed smoking, school skipping teenagers, while I was basically turfed out onto the street to try to fend for myself with no education past grade 12, and a work history that was ‘stay home mom’ for the previous 15 years. He tried to sue me for sole custody (failed) and after I was finished jumping thru all of child welfare’s hoops (including the psych assessment) I was spit out from the system(thank you legal aid and intuitive social worker) after only 10 months, and resumed primary custody of my 2 youngest kids age 5 and 12, as well as joint custody of the other 3.
They preferred to live with dad, since there were no rules at dads house. They could smoke weed to their hearts content, drink themselves silly, skip school with nary a consequence. I was only separated from my kids for 10 months total, and I was very very happy I could keep my youngest child away from the damaging influences of his older brothers. There was weekly visitation, and my ex started paying me child support as ordered by the court.
Now fast forward 6 years. That oldest son is now nearly age 21. He has had a very difficult time in school because of his extreme weed smoking. (and other drugs) He tried to become a cocaine dealer, attracted by the fast money, and ended up crying on the phone to me last may, begging me to help him. He was sleeping in his car in the freezing cold. His dad had kicked him out of the house finally. We hadn’t lived together since he was 13. I let him move into my basement with some strict house rules and he had to get a ‘real’ job and stay employed or he’d be back into his car. That was last may, now he’s working as a plumbing apprentice, and doing well. We couldn’t live together for very long as his personal habits and messiness were nearly impossible for me to live with. He’s back at his dad’s house now, paying room and board, planning to get his own house soon. The second son who is 19 now, spent all of grade 8 high on weed every day (he confessed this to me) and dropped out of school in grade 11. He is working dead end jobs, living with dad, and paying room and board. I have had no influence in these two oldest lives since they were age 13 and 11. Their dad let them do whatever they wanted to do..including dropping out of school. They’ve realized that in order to have any relationship with me they need to get jobs, and quit the drugs.
My twins are almost 17 and are both in grade 11, drug free (for the most part) and are both planning to become apprentices and work in the trades. My youngest is age 10, and has learned ALOT from witnessing all of this drama for the last 6 years. Their father is living still in the marital home, alone, and is a functioning alcoholic. He has shown his boys EXACTLY what NOT to do as a father. My oldest son is quite an anti-femminist and directed me to the savethemales.ca site, which linked me to your article above.
While most of the mens stories above demonstrate how hard they’ve tried and are trying to make things work with a psycho woman, in some cases the psycho woman is created by the lack of leadership shown by the husband. As in my case.
I am remarried to a REAL man 8 years older than me with two 20 something sons of his own. That he took me on with all my ‘baggage’ is a miracle. He is a committed and devoted stepfather to my 10 and 17 year old sons who live with me full time. He is a traditional ‘macho’ type man (born in Greece) and I have no doubt that if we had raised children together, things would have turned out A LOT differently. My kids respect him, and are eager to please him. Believe me there is NO name calling towards me by my adolescent son, or the 10 year old.
Life is peaceful and happy. I have a great relationship with my twins, and the youngest. It is an OK relationship with the older two, who feel I treated them unfairly when they were younger. We do discuss the past, and they have a hard time acknowledging that their out of control adolescent behavior was the major catalyst that destroyed their parents marriage. My ex and I might have been able to have a happy relationship if we had had no children, or had very easy children. No I wasn’t an angel, and neither was their father but challenging children can try even the strongest of marriages, never mind one where one party can’t handle any conflict. (he never saw his parents argue) The lesson in all of this is this: GET OUT EARLY rather than late. I should have left at least a decade before I did…all the signs were there, but I ignored them, hoping and praying things would get better. Once you are on your own you can really evaluate yourself, your flaws, and your good points, and see the marriage for what it really was. Don’t think kids will make anything better….they almost ALWAYS make things worse. Conflict avoiders, don’t think you’re doing anyone any favors by your silence…DEAL WITH ISSUES WHEN THEY COME UP. If you’re with someone who won’t deal, GET OUT!!!
When I watch videos of myself with my oldest kids way back when, I’m saddened that they were deprived of the loving, kind and patient mother that I am now. THIS IS THE REAL ME!!! My 10 year old is definitely the big winner here… When I ask myself ‘why were you like that’ my answer is that living with someone who you can’t be on the same page with and who won’t deal with problems can destroy your relationship with your kids…and your sanity.
I wish you all the best.
David Lebrocq says
Wow what a story. Glad to hear through all your troubles you are now the REAL YOU since you’ve found a REAL man.
I must say though that your comment “in some cases the psycho woman is created by the lack of leadership shown by the husband” is pretty out there.
In fact to a large extent that is exactly the kind of comment one would expect to hear a BPD woman make as she deflects any and all responsibility for her actions away from her and to her partner.
Pretty much everything you wrote is about you deflecting responsibility for your actions to your ex.
Sadly you go as far as admitting carrying out by every definition of the term – domestic violence – yet this is not your doing nor in your control – you picking up keys and throwing them a your child was in fact your ex’s doing???
Is your ex is Telekenetic??
Whoa there – something’s not adding up here.
To be quite blunt from what I’ve read with all THE BIG CAPS inserted you come across as being 100% BPD.
And I’m not the expert here but I can promise you none of the men who connect with this site ‘created’ their BPD or NPD partner.
I understand your story. You do not have any BPD or ADD or NHA or ESPN etc. What you DID have was a major role reversal. Men and women are supposed to do certain things, especially in a family setting. This is the truth and will always be the truth; lesbians, gays, and politically correct people be damned! Men are to be breadwinners, fight and compete for their living out there in the asphalt jungle. They are virile, have penises, tons of testosterone and are full of creative energy. They need to use that and have a purpose driven life. They bring back their earnings and share what they can with their wife and offspring, delighting in leading by example and the secure atmosphere only they can provide.
Children pick up on a dead-fish father or an overbearing and masculine mother. They are confused, act out, especially during hormone-rampant teen years. As you said, children can test the best of marriages. My parents have been together for 31 years. They may not be as they were during the first year, but four girls later and my father is still the blunt tough rugged marine I’ve always known. I respect that, I love him for that. He is a man’s man. If I can become half the woman my mother is, I’ll die happy.
Now anyone who says to go overseas for a wife be warned: Some of the toughest women I’ve ever met are foreign. They may wear dresses, be feminine in appearance and behavior, but they are stronger than our American counterparts simply because they have not been brainwashed like we have since birth. But do not condemn ladies here. It may take a generation or two of misery and despair but they’ll wake up someday.
If you have little girls and boys, raise them as traditional as you can. Let them believe in white picket fence America, poodle skirts and gentlemen who opens doors for ladies. Men discipline your children! Actions speak louder than words and belt does it well! Do not let your wife who is supposed to be the nurturer and sensitive side of you give all the punishment.
Know your roles. Their is a balance to be made in every situation and family is the most important place to start. In the meantime do what the movie the Boiler Room says: “Act As IF!”
I was not attempting to deflect any and all responsibility for my actions away from me and onto my ex. I took responsibility for and changed my inappropriate behaviors thru counseling and a lot of reading. Efforts which were noticed by the child welfare system, and hence my short time in their care. I didn’t want to be a crazy yelling mother, and in my struggle to understand why I became that way I realized that I was being forced into a role that I was ill suited for (to be the disciplinarian for my adolescent sons) I wanted to nurture my sons, to feed them healthy food, bake cookies, to talk to them, read them stories, guide them etc etc. Not be the only one trying to figure out how to deal with their school skipping, dope smoking and other damaging behaviors.
I feel that if I had had a supportive partner instead of someone who just became paralyzed by the sights, sounds and effects of conflict, not to mention the chaos and confusion of having 5 sons very close in age, we together, could have found ways to deal with that behavior so that it most likely wouldn’t have escalated into violence.
Violence is never ok, and it is something I loathe, and am trying to better understand why I became that way. Obviously if I had done what my gut had told me to do a decade earlier, which was end the marriage, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Just because I say that I feel that not having a supportive partner helped escalate things into violence doesn’t mean I’m deflecting personal responsibility for my part in it! I am 100% responsible for choosing to stay with someone I couldn’t be an effective parent with!
Because I am now the type of parent I always endeavored to be, I can see the difference. Physical discipline was never something I was comfortable with, although the church my ex and I attended promoted it widely. Obviously hitting the boy with keys was 100% my doing and completely unacceptable, I have never tried to portray otherwise, and I never tried to hide my part in it. I took responsibility, got help, changed my behaviors, realized my partnership with my ex was toxic, and moved on to a more healthy paradigm. Yes he forced my hand by having me removed from my home for a period of months, but in that time I was able to attend counseling and realize how toxic the whole relationship was, and how far away from the real me I had wandered.
I guess I’m not articulate enough to get my point across effectively to you, but I’m not suggesting that the men reading your posts have ‘created’ their BPD partners. I’m saying that I feel that I was misdiagnosed, and that some of the ‘crazy yelling bitch’ behaviors were in part caused by not having a full partner to help me parent my sons, and the extreme frustration that ensued. Not only would he not discipline them ‘his way’ as I begged him to, (and I would support his way), he would leave me do it my way, then not support the consequences. For example, one consequence was taking away access to a bike because the teenager wouldn’t wear his helmet (the law in my province) Dad would later see that son who is grounded from using bike, (because of his refusal to wear a helmet), riding the bike, and would say nothing. In my opinion a supportive parent would have stopped the boy and held him accountable and made sure he took the bike back home and put it away. Being undermined when you’re trying to teach responsible behavior to teenagers is just impossible to overcome. You cannot win, the teenager will always (usually ) take the path of least resistance. I didn’t always say things had to be my way, I didn’t care who’s way it was, but it had to be SOME way because letting the kid ride his bike to and from school every day without a helmet was breaking the law, and extremely dangerous! Walking 3 kms to school wouldn’t kill the teenager, but not wearing a helmet might…
And the real me wasn’t discovered when I met a real man (I hope you were being sarcastic with that comment)…..we only married last year, after dating for a few years. I discovered the real me, the loving, patient mother, when I was a single parent for quiet a long time. With no one to undermine me, there was no confusion for the kids, and peace ensued. So much so that the teenagers want to spend time with me…and I enjoy their company immensely. My kids are all old enough now to live wherever they want to…I can’t ‘force’ them to live with me, nor would I ever do so. And if my 10 year old decides that he would rather live with his father, he has my complete blessing to do so.
My relationship with my ex is also peaceful, there is no conflict. He takes the kids whenever he wants them, they are free to come and go as they so choose. We share all major holidays We have resolved our issues, and put our toxic past behind us. He’s still a conflict avoider, and it frustrates my older sons all the time. They come complaining to me about it…and I just tell him that he is what he is and they can’t expect him to be more. I do not criticize my ex to my sons. In fact more often than not I find myself defending him, because you know 21 year olds aren’t exactly the most mature beings…
BPD is not the same as a ‘psycho yelling frustrated parent’…. Once the ‘psycho yelling parent’ disappeared, there was and is no similarity at all between myself and the classic symptoms of BPD; I’m not a black and white thinker, I don’t have a jealous bone in my body, I encouraged my ex and encourage my current husband to spend as much time with their friends as they want to. I am definitely not a clingon. I enjoy the time apart to get projects done by myself, and the reunion is fun! I wear almost no makeup, never mind red lipstick..eww. Sex is frequent and still as fun as it was in the beginning (with current hubby). There’s no rage, I get worked up about politics or injustices at times, but rage and yelling aren’t a part of my life at all. I’m not implusive, I don’t drink or smoke or gamble, I love reading, gardening…and cooking. I do not have low self esteem, I know my worth, and can be happy partnered, or alone. There is no instability in my life, emotionally or otherwise. I don’t yell, I don’t get angry, and I could go on. The fire that fueled the ‘yelling bitch’ is long dead. I can just be myself.
I’m sorry if I’m not the best communicator, it’s hard to give a complete picture with a few paragraphs. I feel that I’ve hijacked this thread, and that wasn’t what I intended to do. I apologize for that.
A very valid and enlightening perspective, Alberta. Thank you for sharing this.
Robert Pinkerton says
Dr. T, your hypothetical case sounds like my ex-Karen. Fortunately for me, she tipped her hand early. When finally it escalated to physical abuse, strictly from her to me, the first time I simply went missing for the remainder of the evening. The second time she struck me, I calmly walked down to the building superintendent’s cubicle, wrote out a check for two months rent, and told the super I was leaving her to her own devices but with two months’ rent prepaid to cushion her fall. I was in another flat, on the other side of the city, within thirty-six hours. I thank my Gods it never got as far as marriage, though we had discussed this. She cheated me out of ten thousand dollars in six months, but other than that I got out of it with a whole skin
Hi Robert Pinkerton,
Physical violence is a deal-breaker. Period. I’m glad you’re out. Too bad you couldn’t recoup the money, but think of it as an expensive lesson. What these individuals get away with makes me so angry.
Hi Dr. T.
I have just been reading “Is she a crazy bitch” and the following comments and I am astounded at what some men have to go through. While I am happily married for 40 years I am however a son of one of those woman. She was married and divorced twice and I had to endure her emotions. She never got on with my wife and I was placed as a buffer between my family and her.
I can assure you that there was for the last 40 years not one Christmas or Easter or other family occasion which I didn’t dread .
This must have put a lot pressure on me because my GP diagnosed high blood pressure without being able to find a physical cause for it.
Evaluating my life and circumstances thus far I came to the conclusion that my relationship with my manipulative mother was the cause of it and so I told her straight that I will no longer be manipulated. She did not like it!
Two weeks later she accused me of stealing money from her and if I don’t give it back she will call the police which she did. I returned her keys and told her to go to hell. I felt really bad abandoning a 87 year old woman until 4 weeks later while riding my push bike I realised that this really was the best solution for me. I got her of my back and it was her fault for crossing the line by accusing me falsely.
I can report that my blood pressure is now normal and feel relieved of a giant burden. I received a cellphone call at Christmas which I didn’t accept and one of her friends phoned me a week later telling me that she is in hospital which must be a lie because the hospitals around here have my number on file as the “next of kin”.
While all of the comments here are usually about husband/wife relationships I am sure there must be other sons and daughters with ‘bitchy’ mothers.
I still wonder if I did the right thing by breaking off all contact but I feel great.
“Almost Live” was a local comedy show that aired at 11:30 on Saturdays in Seattle. If the link doesn’t work, look search “The Worst Girlfriend in the World” on Youtube.
With what most of us have been through, we deserve a little humor.
It’s far too late now, but I recognize many traits of my ex, which I was in denial about at the time. I really didn’t want a divorce, but I thought I was losing my sanity and it affected my later relationships with women. I appreciate Henry putting this on his site.
Going on 7 years. 3 married, I thought getting married would make things better. no kids. Agree with the lipstick, no, comment but the idea your conveying is a yes, very vain. Want to die also. She won’t go. Can’t support herself/hold down a job. Threatens me with if you even try and divorce me i’ll make up such horrible stories you’ll go to jail or lose your license (I’m a doctor). I have offered her up to 100k to leave, won’t go. So I think try and make it work. She’s on a constant roller coaster of drugs. Her new doctor is pill pusher. They are constantly uping or downing a dose or changing it. She thinks she is bettter. lol. Dr T is pathological lying part of this??? I don’t want to lose my practice of 23 years and god knows if someone will take her serious and damage my reputation. Even if it’s not the truth I can’t win.
1. Get a lawyer who specializes in divorce from NPD/BPD spouses. Do not tell her yo’re doing this. Prepare your case in secret. Your lawyer will tell you what you need to do. Meanwhile…
2. Get a small digital voice recorder and carry it around with you. Record her making those threats and other abusive outbursts.
3. Get a notebook and journal her other crazy or abusive behaviors.
Hi Dr. T
thanks for this great site, an eyeopener. My partner ticks most boxes, yes the lipstick one too. We have been together for 3 years and we have been seeing a couples therapist for the past 2 years. Progress has been glacial, but then again ‘I forget the good times’… My initial response to my partner’s denigration and shouting was to ‘bottle it up’, then after 6 months’ (individual) therapy sessions I begun to ‘fight back’, to defend my actions and to shout back when I was very fed up+tired. The councillor (a woman) made it her life goal to stop me fighting back and I have spent a lot of energy modifying my behaviour so as to be firm but not get upset. 3 weeks ago my partner had another go at me during a weekend holiday trip. The reason was I had to check emails as I was expecting a really urgent response from a business partner (I explained it was really urgent and it would take 5 minutes to do). I remained calm throughout her fit etc etc, she would not have it, she was unstoppable and eventually I ended up in the bathroom, crying. So much for my ‘civil’ approach. This brought the message home though, I realised I was actually being abused by my partner. The most shocking bit for me however is that in the session that followed the therapist tried to convince me that my partner’s fits are also my fault!! She insisted that something I do is what triggers my partner off. I did repeat again and again that whatever I may have done does not warrant my partner’s response. When I said that on many occassions my partner will ‘suddenly flip’ without no reason, she asked me whether I am insinuating that my partner is crazy (I said “no, but I do think my partner has certain behaviours which are not helping her relationships with others”). When I argued that “it’s just a bloody email during a 3-day period” she told me that other people can do without email, why cannot I? I told the therapist I am angry at her victimising me and for finding excuses for my partner’s abuse, she told me that when things go wrong she “always starts from the premise that both parties have something to do with it”. Can you imagine what would have happened if a man therapist had said that to a rape victim? I am not going to go to any more sessions (I am splitting from my partner anyway) and I’ll make my point again when I call to cancel, don’t know if this will be of any use to anyone else but me though (if that). I hope however that this comment is of some use to someone who has found or will find himself in a similar situation.
I don’t know where else to go. I am so sad, all the time. It’s getting worse and worse
Truth Teller says
And to think the feminists still talk about domestic violence as if it’s a man created problem.
How about mental abuse? At least when the physical beating stops the pain goes away. These women just keep coming in waves on poor suffering guys. Where is the media, the newspapers, the sitcoms depicting this truth? Instead, they’ve taken to making men appear like buffoons undermining their position in the family (when a man exists at all).
I’ve come to the conclusion that anything that walks in high heels or wears pumps engages in rendition (torture) against men.
I could make a case for prostitution. At least, you can pay them to go away. Getting rid of one of these women is; costly, painful and almost impossible.
The real question is who so distorted relationships between men and women, and give the latter twisted expectations? Who benefited? The answer is fascinating. Start with Karl Marx’s feminist manifesto and follow the putrid trail through the 60’s womyn’s libbers and onto the present affirmative action apartheid. And finally we come to the endgame. Who benefited from the breakdown in male female relationships, marriage and the family? The answer is shocking.
As a woman who has read your article, I am sad and disturbed by what you wrote, as I see myself in much of it…however, there are circumstances within my relationship that I feel make me this way as well. I got re-involved with an old boyfriend who was a married man and in prison and we both wanted to be back together when he was released from prison. His letters to me for 5 years told of his undying love, that he was going to divorce the woman he was married to as they only had a relationship that was more sister/brother than wife/husband. He told me over and over how he only wanted to make me happy and come back to me and have a wonderful life together. I waited for over 5 years for him and when he was released he had to go back to his wife’s residence for several months before he could move into my house. He finally did this and after 6 years of living together in total hell, he is about to finally be divorced. In these past 6 years since he came out and moved in with me we have done nothing but fight. I have been angry that he spends so much time with his family members in another town leaving me for days on end even without calling me to tell me he is not coming home. I also got pregnant and now have his 2 year old child. He has several children from several different women from his past but none with the wife he was divorcing. He never tried to really make us, (me, him, and my older daughter) a family as he used to say in his letters to me…he just wanted to go spend overnights in another town with his siblings and drink. This in turn caused me to feel unloved and lonely, as I waited for him for so long and he didn’t even want to spend time with me. He does work and provides financially but I help as well. He feels this entitles him to do whatever he wants, including leaving me for days and not being accountable for this. Needless to say, this behavior of his has caused me to become the type of woman you describe in your article. I never acted like this before he made all these wonderful promises to me and then decided to basically ignore me to spend his time with his sisters and brothers getting drunk all the time. There is much much more to this situation but I just wanted to write to you to see what your comments would be regarding this situation. I unfortunately act like what you’ve described, not everything, but some things…but it was after I was set up to be let down by this man and I can’t seem to get over the hurt from it all. Does anyone get this?
David Lebrocq says
Personally I never can understand anyone who makes comments like: “however, there are circumstances within my relationship that I feel make me this way ”
No one makes you do or act in a certain way – you chose to act how you act and you could have chosen to act a different way.
Check the posts from albertagreek who also spends most of her long commentary affirming she was not responsible for her behaviour either – ‘the man I was with made me do it’ is her outlook on life as well. What a cop out.
What happens to you has absolutely nothing to do with anyone but you. Start holding yourself accountable for your actions and I’m sure your life will go much better.
Tyron Parsons says
Ya know, there are a couple of things I learned through living with a psycho women from hell. In a way, it was all my fault. If I had done the right thing and followed the Lord’s guidance by dating a CHRISTIAN WOMEN and having NO SEX, and just courted for a while. If I had done this, number 1, I would have found out she was a psycho.#2 I would have not got in her lunatic grip by us having a baby out of wedlock. #3. I would not have gone though years of hell chasing my daughter whom will not even speak to me now. In short, while it is true she was a freaking evil bitch, I ALLOWED it to happen by NOT doing what I knew to be the right thing. The only consolation is the hope that all of this crap turns good later by Gods grace and my daughter turns from her Mothers influence, turning to the Lord. It would be too sweet if then she was able to convert her Mom. If there is one person I know who needs healing desperately, it is my ex and I sure hope one day she sees all her wrongs and quits her ways. All it is is continued pain for her, my daughter, my self and others in her life.
Lately, I can’t help but wonder: is our current culture actually creating and then promoting a narcissistic attitude amongst women growing up these days?
Case in point: Why is it that when women stand up for themselves, it’s viewed as “Female Empowerment” or “Women’s Rights”. Whereas, if a man were to exhibit the same behavior in a similar situation, he is almost invariably viewed as sexist?
Kinda always leaves men to feel like the bad guys no matter what we do.
I mean, don’t get me wrong: I’m a firm believer in equality. What I’ve been noticing these past several years however, is a movement away from equality and instead towards entitlement and domination.
It’s unsettling to say the least.
David Lebrocq says
The Canadian Family Law system is one system that perpetuates the entitlement and domination you speak of and furthers the inequality.
Not only are many women coached in preventing men access to their children by lawyers, and not only are the police more than eager to arrest the man based solely on the ‘word of the woman’ the perpetuation of inequality is built into support agencies.
I just recently had a discussion with one of the directors of the Chatham Ontario Women’s shelter who confirmed to me that the shelter does absolutely nothing to confirm or collaborate allegations of abuse when a woman comes to them in a domestic violence situation.
‘We take the woman at her word’ was what I was told over and over – no matter what the situation or scenario I suggested.
So just imagine – one is dealing with a NPD woman and one has children with this woman. She can go to a women’s shelter and get all the tax payer funded support in the world to pursue false allegations of abuse or domestic violence with absolutely nothing more than her word.
Unsettling is an understatement.
Yeppers, been there done that. I was with my ex for 15 years, married for 10 of them. We had 3 children together (great kids, could not ask for better). I went through most of what is on the list. She had me believing I was crazy, had me seeing counslers, on meds, you name it, she even mannaged to drive me to the point of being suicidal. Then things went downhill and got bad, lol. All in all, “she” ended up applying for a divorce, and she got it too. Yes it has been expensive, child support, medical on the kids, etc. But you know what? I now know I am fine, I am not crazy, I am not on meds, I am not suicidal, I have friends, I get to do the things I enjoy, I have my kids regularly bi-weekly or more. The expence is minor, the results are more than worth it. I now also know I will NEVER again in my life be married. I do not even want to live with a woman. Yeah, I date, I go out and have fun, I get lucky once in a while too. The point is, I am happy being single, and I intend to stay that way. I have yet to meet a woman that does not pitch red flags at me on a regular basis. I have 5 rules Rules for dating; #1. Do not ever expect to come before my kids. Rule #2. Dont tell me ya love me. Rule #3. Do not talk about marriage. Rule #4. Do not leave your things at my house. Rule #5. Wear a damn rubber, do not let her tell you she can not get pregnant (not a smart move at all) Or else get snipped (unless of course you have loads of cash laying around that you do not need. For the rest of you guys, get the hell out, regardless of the cost. I mean really guys, how much is your self worth, pride, and sanity worth to you. Just grow some balls, big ol hairy stinky man balls, and get the hell out.
how odd says
So my wife has probably at least half of these traits, but i notice some of the things that you mention are things she says I do. Like when she tears into me over stupid stuff, i just withdraw go blank faced and don’t talk alot. You could call it pouting but it is more of a defense mechanism from her tirades in my mind. Am I just as guilty for getting sullen when she treats me like garbage, I hate pouting, and I have really tried to stop doing that stuff lately. Am I being paranoid or is this a projection thing or what? Man sometimes I swear I could seet his coming….then other times I feel totally blind sided by it.
We all react differently to their tirades, some of us are defensive, some are withdrawn reactions. Anyway you look at it, she is engaging your behavior knowing it upsets you and to inevitably get her way. Despite the outcome, yes, we all become a bit paranoid when walking in the “mine fields” of their relentless ploys to have control of us. They know you better than you know yourself, they push those buttons intentional to engage you, to bring you to a place you don’t want to be, usually you will succumb to their desires just to maintain peace in some way, shape, or form. Unfortunately, “peace and tranquility” is not what THEY want, they want your blood, they want to suck the very life force out of you, they want you to be submissive, hence, to be in control. Don’t try to fix it, don’t think it will ever get better,.. it won’t. The only time it will get better(for you!) if SHE believes that she cannot overcome your defiance, and she makes the decision to move on herself. In other words, it has to be her idea. Remember it’s not whether we know what condition she has, i.e.,BPD, NPD, Histrionic,etc., it’s about the abuse itself, that it exists and that you realize, you’re in a no-win situation.
As for the things she says you do, Dr. T mentions a term called “reflective projection” ( believe I got that right?) whereby, the abuser mirrors their own traits and characteristics back upon you knowing full well, this is indeed a short-comimg of their own. They of course would rather die than to admit such though, so once again, she deems you as the perpetrator instead. You may indeed be doing some of this, however, yours is fixable, hers is not!!
Someone help me. This might be long so bear with me I dont know if it is me or her.
Married 18 years 4 children. I am type a personality, prior military now policeman. My marriage has been a serious roller coaster ride from day -01. My wifes mother was diagnosed bp two years ago. i watched my inlaws relationship over the years and it was horrible. he is a nice, easy going guy, doesnt really fight back with her. Im unfortunately the opposite and defend myself every time.
I will get to the point of the last few years. Three years ago jsut before Christmas my wife says she wants a divorce. This is the third time in our marriage she has done this. i was devastated and tried to do everything right for the next three months. When Feb came around I decided to go to a birthday invite by some female coworkers. (i wasnt the only guy invited) So a buddy and I go and I end up dancing with someone and we hit it off right away.
So I end up getting home late, no funny biz with the other woman but just late, i was having a good time. She meets me at the door screamin bloody murder at me accusing me of everything under the sun, so I packed up and left. moved away and two weeks later filed for the divorce.
I then did something I realize I shouldnt have but it felt good. I immediately started dating the “other girl”. I was then accused of walking out on my family by her, accused of adultery, sin etc she told everyone her version not mine or even a combination of the two.
this went on for 6 months, she would come by where i was staying and want to have sex with me. She even told me that one night she came over and had a cold sore and tried to give me herpes by giving me a blow job but it didnt work. WTF?
She hates my mother who has never been anything but nice to her.Will go into a screaming “your a lying cheating SOB tirade,” then when I say ok im outa here she begins to ball and scream through teary eyes why are you leaving me.???????????
She came to me 4 days before our court date and I accepted the terms of getting back into the marriage and making it work out. I tooka job transfer and moved 212 miles from our home where I had friends, some of whom im not allowed to talk to beacause they know the other girld and were friends. A month ago she tooka handful of valiums in front of me and the kids and I had to nearly drag her to the hospital. I got her set up with counseling and the counselor told her she was acting out looking for help and that she lives in an abusive relationship. I ahve never abused her, my kids, i dont drink doi drugs smoke etc. I get loud tho when I need or feel like i need to be heard.And going thorugh the emotional stress at times I have broke a glass or picture frame or two.
We have or did have sex about once every other month and it was only after I couldnt stand it any more and pretty much begged for it. She is filing for divorce this week and i am tore up..
I have two questions
1 Am I crazy, is it me or my actions here. I mean this isnt the first go round
2 why do i feel so badly, so down about this, so hurt? I need some help here anyone im going crazy. My parents have said let it go quit worrying. they say they dont know anyoine who wouldve gave it this much try. I feel like im losing my mind ! HHHHHHHHEEEEELP
You’ve come to the right place. The answers to these questions and more can be found on the other blogs. We’re a pretty friendly bunch and Dr T has a ton of knowledge and insight. Keep reading!
Believe me you are not crazy. Much of your story mirrors mine. I was with her for 17 years. As long as I stood up to her and fought back (for 14 years) I was in the game. When I let up and did as told,she stomped me into the ground. Divorce threats happened about six times per year and were her way of exerting control. Your not perfect and neither am I but assertivenes in the face of abuse is not a character defect.
I am trying to figure out if it am crazy. Just yesterday everything was calm as it can be during this divorce issue. I talked to her on the telephone, she asked about a mechanical issue with her vehicle. Since everything was calm I said “well if you take it to the mechanic and it is exepensive then i will replace the thermostat so you can save your $.” I said I was going to visit my brother and she asked that I leave money for groceries etc for her and the kids, since she doesnt get paid until monday.
I said yes no problem. She has her own career and own bank account by the way, wont even think about a joint account never would. So taht was it. Then thirty minutes later she leaves me a nasty text on my phone????? WTF Can someone tell me if this is something that fits this BPD thing or no? I started to diagnose my self last night and was blaming my self for everything, that really puts some pressure on the heart and mind. Granted Im not perfect but its like trying to get along with jekyl and hyde.
your NOT crazy! She was showing her needy side, which, of course alternates with her crazy ballbustin side. By staying calm and helpful, coupled with your visiting your brother (your support system) you didn’t engage/play her game. She wanted you to refuse cash so she could play the victim and you could play the jerk. My whacko had her own career/investments/bank accounts, yet she constantly berated me for not “stepping up” and paying for things. A classic case of whats mine is mine and whats yours is mine. I would also guess that since your lady is so “special”, she secretly just cannot figure why you are not crying and squealing to call the divorce off. That you are going through with it is a tremendous blow to the inflated view of herself….the “false” self she portrays to you and the community. Not the nut job she truly feels she is.
Daughter of BPD says
I love your site and your stories. My mom has textbook BPD and I’ve dealt with it my whole life. My poor father (they’ve been married for almost 25 years) is only now finally speaking up to his daughters about it and trying to actually seek medical help. My mom is in with a counselor but won’t be properly diagnosed as she manipulates her counselors into only treating/talking about what she wants them to hear and never lets them have interaction with the family or even her husband to help her get correct treatment. And now sadly, my brother-in-law has fallen prey to a woman with BPD or NPD…trying to warn him but he has fallen under her attack and is recieving heavy fire. She just got him to move out of his house and in with her and has told him he is not allowed to see his family without her or her brother present. Any advice on how to help him see whats going on?
And to all the guys out there who find them with women like these…run…they can threaten all you want but for your kids and your own sanity…RUN!
Aw, I am truly, truly in trouble. She has all these qualities and I am in for a ride if/when I leave. But, it helps to know that I am not alone.
My girlfriend displays all the personalities from the questions above (except the lipstick), especially complaining about all my friends and family and stopping me from seeing or talking to any of them. She also hits me and screams all the time if i dare stand up for myself.
Well Ive been dating this woman for just over 2 years, and i have hit breaking point but i cant pull the trigger and just leave. I get sucked into feeling sorry for her when she is crying, and whenever she gets upset and goes overboard, she usually apologises and i dont take it further cuz i just want some peace and quiet. I dont know what to do, or how to mentally prepare for breaking up with her??? Any help with how to get out (or handle) this situation??
yes on ten. i work out of the country. minor argument before i left. she moved out, filed for divorce, got daddy to buy her a house, moved in it, shut me off, my family and friends, all over the course of six weeks. blames me for all of it, admits no wrong in her doing, and will not communicate with me or even sit down with me. will be final in ten days. never had a choice or a chance. wtf. anyone know?
i went thru it for 10 years. always thinking maybe it is me. stayed till the kids were able to know who i was. i always knew there was something wrong with her but after taking this quiz and answering yes to most of it, now i know. i’m deff. not an angel. she had to control everything even now she controls where and when i see the kids. they say it will get better that the kids will know for themselves but i am missing their childhood waiting and thats not fair to them of myself. at least i know i’m not alone. really thought it was all my fault. it rained in china and it was my fault. i’ve been so lost for so long and it hasn’t gotten any betterafter leaving. at least when i was there i got to be daddy to my kids now i,m just a opem wallet.
Eternal Optimist says
Like many here, i can relate to the questions, the stories, the pain and the drama. We recently started therapy together to work through these issues. I was pretty shocked when the therapist was overwhelmingly one-sided about my wife needing to make changes. 3 sessions and I still haven’t had any homework. I finally believe it isn’t me.
My concern is that there do not seem to be ANY examples of a female being able to change and build a successful healthy relationship. Is it really that impossible? Are there no examples with positive outcomes that weren’t a separation?
I’ve been going on, with as much patience as I can muster, just hoping there is light at the end of the tunnel. If the only option is to get out, I need to do it before kids are involved. Is my glass necessarily half-empty?
Mr. E says
Eternal Optimist – Does your wife accept that she needs to make changes, and is she working to make those changes? If so, I don’t see why things can’t work out. Especially if that’s still true 6 months from now. Counselling does work for some couples.
Basically, if she’s a rational person who’s behaving badly/differently than you are accustomed to (think quiet midwestern folks meet explosive new yorkers), but is willing to work to make it better, you should be fine.
If, however, she thinks she’s perfect and YOU need to change, then you might consider cutting your losses.
I’ve been there; thinking that If I worked harder, things would get better but, it only got worse.
You need to face it; she has a personality disorder. She isn’t suffering from a treatable mental illness. The odds of her changing are practically zero.
It’s not a glass half-empty/half-full situation. It is simply accepting reality.
If she is unwilling to change you’ve got two choices: 1. Get out. 2. Spend the rest of you life walking on eggshells and being treated like dirt.
Do what is health for you.
I’m with Mr E. If she understands that she needs to work and make changes, that’s further than mine got. NPD is not, in my understanding, something you have or don’t have. There are varying degrees. If she truly cares about how her behavior affects others, maybe she can work on it successfully (don’t ask me how to tell if she really cares or is pretending to care). If you’re still in therapy and she’s actively involved, I’d see it through.
If you read all the articles on this site you’ll run into a couple of points repeatedly: Cluster B personality disorders are extraordinarly resistent to treatment, and they tend to get worse as the NPD/BPD ages.
So, if your wife fits this profile, the odds are against a happy ending.
Deciding whether to end a marriage is hard, and it’s easy to procrastinate making the call, especially as your desire to connect with her may distort your perceptions (in her favor) of how badly you’re being treated.
I suggest you give yourself a fixed time period, say a year from now, at the end of which you will revisit the question. In the meantime throw everything you have into the marriage, BUT equally importantly, journal every day. Then when the year is done, read the journal and see what’s changed. If there have been no real improvements you’ll know that you’ve given it enough time, and you’ll have a record of your day to day perceptions and feelings with which to strengthen your resolve should you decide to end it.
This is Dr T’s response to a question I asked in the Feb 09 Blog on Is She a Borderline or Narcissist?
I think they all have attachment issues to some degree, which explains why they’re not capable of real intimacy. They can’t make themselves vulnerable and drive others away when they get too close. It is heartbreaking, but you’re right; they do it to themselves.
The ability to form a healthy attachment begins in very early childhood. In order to repair this and a personality disorder, a trained professional has to essentially break the individual’s disordered personality structure down and then re-parent and rebuild them. This could take years, if not decades to accomplish and there’s no guarantee of a positive outcome.
Marion Solomon compared changing a relationship when one or both parties has a PD as “…trying to capture smoke.”
It can happen but success stories come few and far between.
I agree this is probably true. I would be careful about the diagnosis. If she’s a full blown NPD, by all means, get out. But do you automatically throw away a marraige if she has NPD tendencies? Or if she shows behaviors consistent with some of the checklist, but doesn’t do some of the other things at all?
If she’s seeking help and accepting ownership, surely that’s making positive progress, and yep if it continues! All good.
Why is it that the over riding response is to get out & stay out? I’ve read pretty much most f the blogs and I think all the articles.
I’m currently out of an on/off 5 year relationship, I believe her to be NPD/ BPD but I also firmly believe it to be down to her up bringing, classic Parental split by the age of 4, lived with her promiscuous mother till I think 14, was sexually abused during this period, then left and lived with Dad till 16, then lived alone, she’s had 2 marriages and several failed relationships, interestingly mine is likely the longest of them all.
Whilst I should resent her & by all account be thanking my blessings and staying out, I do feel she’s the victim as well in all this, she didn’t willfully set out to emotionally abuse me.
I suppose my point is yes I’d like to help or fix her, and I know everyone says won’t happen, abandon her, save yourself.
But ask yourself this, why of all the illnesses is this incurable? Would we as a society accept the view that it’s cool to turn our back on any illness or person suffering? And what if it were family member or indeed your child !!!! What then would we cast her into life boat and push her out to sea? Don’t think so!
I accept the site & Dr T is a huge help and resource to us all, perhaps it’s on my weaker days, but I sometimes find it hard to depict these people as vampires or demons.
There was a time when the sick had to ring a bell to keep us from being infected.
If they show signs of remorse and wish to have and receive help surely that’s a massive advancement.
If she’s trying she gets my vote, but yep observe with an open mind, and good luck Eternal Optimist
@Ace – Regardless of her upbringing and her intentions; she did abuse you. It sounds like you’re willing to make excuses for her.
Its good that you don’t resent her, that says there is something in you that’s kind and forgiving but, letting her off the hook for her actions because she had a very bad childhood isn’t going change anything.
Cluster B’s don’t have mental illnesses like depression, etc. It is a personality disorder. To change that, you’d have to change there personality, which near impossible.
Further more, leaving someone who treats you badly isn’t abandonment; it’s sanity. I’m willing to bet that she made some comment about you abandoning her near the end or after the end of your relationship. Please, let me know if my guess is wrong.
FYI – I learned the hard way that no matter what I did she wasn’t going to change and it was very painful. Do I think my EX was monster or “vampire”? No, she was just a very bad person who was toxic to be around.
Mr. E says
“But ask yourself this, why of all the illnesses is this incurable?
If they show signs of remorse and wish to have and receive help surely that’s a massive advancement.””
It’s a character disorder – the problme is that they have bad characters. Imagine if someone told you your left arm was really a problem for them and you needed to remove it, but you were certain your arm was just fine. You’d probably tell them off. The folks we’re discussing think they are JUST FINE, and the problem is YOU.
IF they are willing to get help is the sticking point. I don’t think any of us would abandon someone who is trying to get better. However, most of the people we’re talking about around here can’t even comprehend that the problem might be partly their fault.
I agree many have tragic histories, but there are people who’ve come through traumatic pasts without going on to abuse others. It’s not “incurable” so much as “incredibly unlikely that it will be cured.”
Quite correct Mr E, thankfully every person who’s had tragic or abusive up bringing does not become an abuser. Whilst I did rant a bit about my own feelings, thoughts and opinions, I was merely supporting (Eternal Optimist) in that if she’s seeking help, then that’s a big plus, any yes stay in by all means, but proceed with caution.
I’m still not convinced they’re all bad people; I do think there is a descending scale for sure. I’m also not saying they should or indeed could all be helped even if we wished to, many love themselves just the way they are, and why not ? it works for them 🙂 I also believe many people hide behind illness and use it as an excuse for bad behavior.
I’ve a buddy who’s married to a woman who’s been diagnosed as bi polar. She’s on medication, she’s full on, and quite honestly ticks many of the boxes of the borderline behavior discussed on here, except for the fact that it’s as though she were on steroids when she’s being abusive, she in my opinion uses the bi polar as a shield.
My point is she like the NPD /BPD chooses when to abuse, she can differentiate when and when not to abuse, she once left my house and bit the guy within 100meters of leaving my house, yet she showed no signs of frustration in my home. The guy could genuinely end up with a knife in his chest and bi polar covers it .
I had similar experience with a person who choose to ignore best practice with Diabetes, she drank heavily and basically knew best, despite best medical advise. It would be unfair to view all diabetics based on her behavior, so there in lays my point that surely every single person with behavioral disorder is not entirely the same
Actually every time its off it’s by her choice as is the getting back together. On the one occasion I was going to leave her she did a very good job of stopping me, she never mentioned abandoning. But yes she’s done all the mean and nasty things that everyone else on here has experienced.
The exceptions being no financial issues, very successful lady, no cheating, and no lies, though she did the gaslighting and had distorted views of reality, and yes she constantly put me down, and also my kids once they were out of ear shot. And to be honest she constantly commented on everyone to me, even complete strangers she see in the street, everything is and as an issue, Bank Q’s Security in Airports, Traffic etc etc.
The thing is I’m not making excuses or letting her off the hook, her up bringing is a fact and yes she instinctively learned from her mother and various survival tools.
I don’t believe she knowingly does everything she does, nor do I believe she enjoys it.
I do believe she does things at times that she may regret and is too stubborn or proud to retract them or apologies. She’s definitely damaged and badly at that, but as I was commenting on ( Eternal Optimists ) I would certainly give her a thumbs up if she was genuinely trying to sort herself out. Would I be prepared to give my Ex a chance to sort herself if she acknowledged her wrong doing ? absolutely ! would I have an open mind ? absolutely !
I just find we’re a bit to quick to lick our wounds and blame, we’d a part to play in the drama, yes they abused, absolutely no question about that, and yes I read all the
co- dependency pieces.
The truth is in all this reading and researching it has made me very much aware of how little we actually know of the various troubles people around us experience on a daily basis.
The thing is my ex does the whole re invent herself Madonna style every time, at this stage she’s lived in 22 different homes, including her up bringing. She’s a circular existence that she doesn’t even appreciate herself. She’s not seeing anyone else now, and she’s still carrying about all that frustration with everyday objects and people, but has no one to vent them to at the moment. Is she happy ? hell no ! she’ll give off the outward appearance of being happy, but in truth she serves her own punishment in her own head, and always will.
torn and frayed says
thanks for this post! I know know 110% that i was dating a crazy bitch and i feel better for ending it and placing the relationship in the trash bin of history.
You want to hear crazy bitch material?
My NPD ex gf used to “joke” in a sing-song voice that “If I can’t have you no one can…” and “no one’s ever going to find you”. It was funny at first, but uh…it got a little spooky. She was obsessed with some reality show on TLC or A&E or something about women who got caught for attempting to or actually murdering their husbands.
Mr. E says
Yikes! When we first started dating, mine used to tell me she’d kill me if I ever broke her heart. But I haven’t heard that in almost 13 years now.
Super spooky about the reality shows. Sounds like you might have actually dodged a bullet!
Jeez. You have just opened up my eyes to a world of poo – and relief. Now I see what has been happening to me. I was only alerted to this because my partner labelled me with (amongst many others I had no idea about too) Narcisstic Personality Disorder. It was only when I looked into it, because I took her comments seriously, that I became aware of BPD. But, oh when I did and saw this, it was like a spy coming i nfrom the cold. finally, I have an explanation for all her behaviour that has made a mess of me and made me self critical and feel worthless. she has exhibited many of the traits described The cruelest of which is to threaten to expose our bedroom habits to all and sundry. That is the nastiest thing anyone could ever threaten I think. I’ve let her threaten me wiht this 4 times now. Now I realise what is happening.
My big question is, that once this happened, I confronted her with this and she insists it’s me not her and feel these are all my issues (projection maybe?) not here. How can I tell if maybe she is right and it is all me – or is this what happens to men in this situation – they are made to feel it’s all their fault?
“My big question is, that once this happened, I confronted her with this and she insists it’s me not her and feel these are all my issues (projection maybe?) not here. How can I tell if maybe she is right and it is all me – or is this what happens to men in this situation – they are made to feel it’s all their fault?”
The short answer is making us believe it’s our fault is common. A common tactic is to manipulate a situation that will get you to respond in a way that supports her claims. It’s insidious since you actually do what she claims but she’ll deny any responsibility for her contribution.
Read the other blogs and the forums. If you can keep enough distance while its going, you will probably get a pretty good idea of what you’re dealing with. If you really feel the need to validate your feelings, talk to a therapist with experience in Cluster Bs.
Now that the light’s coming on, you need to be more careful. If she perceives that you’re challenging her authority, things will get worse before they get better. What kind of relationship is it if your partner is emotionally blackmailing you with the threat to expose some intimate secrets?
Thank you,thank you, thank you. Your comments are really supportive and I feel like finally I can put some sense around this. Right now I sit here shaking because she’s started texting me on her phone with the excuse of exchanging worldly goods aka excuse to keep contacting me. She emailed yesterday about the same thing, but I didn’t reply straight away as I wanted to do it today when I was up to it and now I see how it’s all part of her hating the lack of attention. I’m a big bloke with lots of personality and I can’t believe the mess I have been reduced to. And you’re right – what kind of relationship is it with someone who would do that.
As part of her advice I am seeing a therapist next week. She thought I was so wrong all the time she wanted me to go see one. Now I know all this, I will be going anyway, but the emphasis has now changed, but at least they will be able to assist with this behaviour – and ultimately how I cope with it – especially at a time like this when I’m in the eye of the storm and I now there’s more to come.
Big B says
Everything except the lipstick on the crazy woman checklist is a yes. I felt ill after taking this quiz because it is so revealing about the problems at home. My wife has these fits of rage and constantly reminds me of my failures and shortcomings. We have a nice home in an upscale part of town which we can barely afford on my salary since she doesn’t work even though the kids are older and independent now. No matter how much is spent on upgrades and renos it’s never good enough for her. Last night she told me that our marriage was the worst mistake she ever made, my weight disgusts her ( 6’3″, 230 lbs) and the financial stresses are all my fault. I have worked for the same business for 30 years and have always made good money and our debt is under control.
I have mentioned a trial separation to sort things out (I am not interested in pursuing any other woman) at which she went berserk and broke things in the kitchen while calling me every foul name imaginable. There is no possibility of intelligent, rational conversation with this woman and any mention of counselling makes it even worse.
Funny thing after a huge tantrum last night filled with foul language and name calling she kissed me this morning and said I love you. I am ready for the nuthouse and don’t know what to do!
Big B, What you just described will never change.
I’ve been separated from ex for four years.
A week before Father’s Day she unloaded on me in an email after I’d expressed concern to her about something affecting our girls. I was respectful, polite, assertive, and kept my remarks focused on the kids.
It didn’t matter…she had to punish me for challenging her supremacy by bringing the issue up at all.
Her reply was a psychotic, gaslighting rage attack. The worst ever, full of bizarre and cruel attacks on me, all completely off-topic of course.
I assumed we’d be entering a new low period in our interactions and I detached even more in our brief exchanges.
But a week later she brings me an expensive Father’s Day gift and has been weirdly chatty and ‘kind’ to me.
No apology of course. And in her mind there’s no incongruence. She doesn’t think like that. It’s all instinct and reaction and no introspection on their part. Don’t look for a ‘reason’. Just get away.
Always enjoy your comments JP,..I believe that this topic is one of Dr. T’s most popular running posts. Probably because we can all relate to “crazy bitch”, right! Big B’s comment about his wife’s demeaning act the night before, with a kisses and love in the a.m., are true crazy-making antics of such personality disordered women. The knife is in, she just wanted to twist it around a little and cause some more emotional pain.
The separation idea has probably initiated her self-preservation mode, so her wheels are turning, and that should concern BB. Dependent upon her abilities to make a living,i.e., profession, education,etc., she will figure out real quick where she stands and how she will proceed.
A word of advice Big B, you need to be one step ahead of her at all times now that you somewhat understand the nature of “her beast.” That kiss and love thing that morning may also have been her way of saying, “after our discussion last night, hmmm..I wonder, how much alimony I could receive if we were divorced?” Child support, and on and on. Trust me Big B, don’t allow her to have any room to run where it concerns the status of your marriage, process of dissolution, the kids and the financial aspects. The courts favor women even in no fault states. There is a world of resource here already, posted by contributors and Dr. T on how to prevent these crazy bitches from taking you to the “cleaners.” Believe me that a.m. kiss with love was filled with thoughts that would only serve her best interest. Take care guys.
My ex-wife would also put on the freak show…never appologize or even admit it happened. About the same time frame, she would offer to buy me something expensive or make vacation plans paid for by her. She’d rather cut off her own arm to avoid apologizing for anything!
I have to tell you that this by far one of the most confirming post I’ve ever read. my wife and I have been married for over a year she already had a son and we have a son together. Which, specifically with my step son, is the reason I’ve put up with this for so long and even married her. The fear of losing my kids is to great. however now I finally believe I’m out for good, think god, moving into my sister’s.
Almost all of the attributes discussed in this article fit her to a T, my biggest concern is that after the exposure to her and her symptoms I truly feel that I am becoming BPD and NPD. I’ve lost all friends since shortly after being with her and almost never speak to my family, who I have always been very close to. Now whenever I DO go to a public place or hang out with old friends I feel uncomfortable and locked in side my one head, often I’ll want to talk to people even to the point where I run the outcome of the conversation in my own head it’s ridiculous! I was always such an extrovert of a person before her, now I’m a recluse. I’ve quit several great jobs because of her and become a wellfare/section 8 case. what do I do?! I need more help then ever. Now that I’m not with her, the only bit of sanity I did have seems to be going quickly out the window.
Any thoughts or words of advice will things get better now that I’ve cut the cord?
Things will get better.
Different things will be imposed upon you and things will get better.
You will learn to expect the different things and things will get better again.
You will learn to desire the different things and things will get better again.
You will learn to create the different things and things will get better again.
You will learn to create your own different things and things will get better again.
You will learn to love the different things and things will get better again.
Things will get better BECAUSE they are different not DESPITE being different.
Things will be better when there is no ‘before and after the trauma’, just ‘before and after the understanding’ that things do get better.
AH!!! (Delighted squeal) Love reading your posts, Lighthouse!! I hope you are putting those words down in a book of recovery poetry….will you get one published? Just put a lighthouse on the front – I’ll recognize it and pick up a copy. 🙂
Thanks for the kind words – I’m glad you find them of value.
Having visited a very dark place I have a great deal of sympathy for those who find themselves in such a position. Furthermore, I have experienced how effectively the internet can reach the very isolated and vulnerable population of people who are abused by their partners while avoiding triggering their partners into further acts of abuse.
As a result, in my spare time I try to help others by illuminating my own pathway of learning that led me back to the light while remaining immoveable in my resolve to take not one step beyond my boundaries that protect my own emotional health – analogous to a Lighthouse (hence the name).
However, the vast majority of my life is focused on living my new knowledge and enjoying the benefits of doing so with those I love most.
As a result, no book… just a life well lived.
Wishing you the same,
Lighhouse,thank you for the words of wisdom, much appreciated. I’ve had more interesting developments in my situation since last I posted. Things that leave me wondering “whats the point, is there such thing as love?” I have no optimism regarding this. How can someone spend years leading you to believe that your love is accepted and returned, all the while consuming your soul. At the end of it all, leaving you with nothing and making you feel like nothing, worth nothing.
I have no hope at this point in finding love.
I had a different take at the end of my diversion. I felt that I had been left with something – a compulsion NEVER to suffer the same again. I’d argue if you’ve found this website you’re after more than ineffectual sympathy yourself !
I suggest this is a method of identifying and maintaining good boundaries so you do not suffer the same again and can find love…
Beliefs, natural laws or self-evident truths:
Rule No. 1 – by definition if love isn’t reciprocated it is adoration, not love.
Rule No. 2 – the application of good boundaries are all that stand between adoration and love.
Living the beliefs, natural laws or self-evident truths:
Learn to identify what you want (1), to listen to what is being asked of you (2), to say ‘no’ (3):
(1) What you want reflects your values, i.e. how you want to use your own knowledge, time, commitments, stuff and effort. Myself I allocate my knowledge, time, commitments, stuff and effort in proportion to my relationship priorities from myself, through partner, child, family, friends, and work colleagues all the way to strangers.
(2) What is being asked of you is measured in knowledge, time, commitments, stuff (ownership or use of) and effort.
(3) When to say ‘no’ is when your relationship with the other person historically results in them ending up with more of your knowledge, time, commitments, stuff and effort then you do theirs and you can’t think of something you want from them right now to at least have a fair transaction.
Applying the beliefs, natural laws or self-evident truths:
Learn to give a kind, respectful, compassionate ‘no’ while preserving the relationship when subject to overt (1) or covert (2) requests:
(1) A kind, respectful, compassionate ‘no’ to overt requests sounds like this “I understand you have a need for [specific knowledge, time, commitments, stuff and effort requested}, however on this occasion I do not feel comfortable providing it. Please feel free to ask again on another occasion.”
(2) A kind, respectful, compassionate ‘no’ to covert requests sounds like this “It sounds like you’re having a tough time with that. What do you plan to do about it ?”
You will effectively love yourself after you learn to identifying and maintaining good boundaries.
You will be effectively loved after you learn to love a person that respects your ‘no’ and applies the above them self.
And as for how you find that person… now there you’re on your own !
While you’re seeking that person, just remember you are ALWAYS loveable even if you have not found a partner who is willing to be held accountable for behaving lovingly and where there is life there is hope.
Things will get better,
Wow, this site is very empowering. I have been on here all night reading the articles and posts and I am feeling like I did the right thing ending my relationship. I finally got tired of the abuse that many of you are familiar with but I’m only in day 3 and I have broken down and had contact( less every day mind you.) I’m going to shoot for zero tomorrow!The reason she called me 20+ times and texted me horrible threats and insults initially today started out as her wanting to return a sweatshirt she had taken when we saw each other last. I have mentally said goodbye to my sweatshirt and having to deal with her anymore.I hope my resolve sticks.
One of the things that made me really get fed up enough that I haven’t seen mentioned much is women like this and how they treat people in the service industry. I used to wait tables in college so I thought I was just oversensitive to it. Every time we would go out to eat my ex would be downright rude to the perfect stranger who had the misfortune of waiting on us. I felt as though I had to be overly nice, or distract her when the server came to the table so she wouldn’t get a chance to be rude. This became frequent enough that I didn’t want to be out in public with her anymore. By seeing someone else being bullied by her I began to “wake up” from her power over me. I had been okay with being verbally abused on a daily basis, but seeing her treat almost everyone she came into contact with so uncaring an attitude I began to make steps to leave her.
After I made it clear I didn’t want her to contact me anymore I have seen an extreme escalation in her insults and threats that brought me to this blog. It really helped me in a time of weakness. I am very thankful that I have many friends that I have managed not to alienate in the 2 years I had been with my ex, and now your works of wisdom Dr.T!
Old Guy says
You’re on the right track, Jonas. Just stick with it and in any moments of weakness repeat to yourself “she will never change”.
I often found my wife to be rather brusque with people in the service sector. Like you, I might be a bit over-sensitive to this because I spent a few of my younger years working in retail stores, etc. however, so had my wife.
The funny part was that when she was working in the retail sector and a customer spoke to her in a way she didn’t appreciate, I’d certainly be hearing about the “rude” person she’d dealt with that day.
And of course, if I said or did anything in public that she didn’t like, I’d be hearing about how I’d “embarassed” her.
You don’t have to be BPD/NPD type to be rude or insensitive however, the “it’s all about me” creed they live by no doubt helps.
No contact is an imperative step in the process, not just less contact, NO CONTACT! Once you have ignored her text, emails, phone calls, etc., she will get the picture and move on, she will seek a new supply. Some take a little longer than others, and despite how long you’ve ever been apart, she will always believe she has control over you. My x-npd believed that every man she has been with, all the way back to Jr. High, would come running back to her if she asked them to! She’s in her mid 40’s now! She’s probably telling her next victim that I would come back as well,..most are delusional in this way.
However long it takes, once she makes the realization you’re done, she will not view this like other normal women in a breakup, i.e. with emotions, remorse, etc., no, her view is that you have finally outlived your usefulness to her..NEXT! Despite what she says to you, and she will attempt to make you feel like shit about the whole relationship, DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING SHE SAYS!!! Remember this too, and despite how unique or different you believe your relationship with her was, “she never felt true love for you.” Personality disorders like NPD, BPD, Histrionic, are incapable of true intimacy and loving emotion. Each one of these conditions vary only slightly on the emotional/intimate level, however, the outcomes are abusive none-the-less, and that is the only realization you should make. They thrive on depreciating those they are close to, it maintains their defiled epicenter. No contact in essence, drains their supply pipeline to this epicenter. If you were to contact her once, say, in three months, she is not excited to hear from you, she is excited to start filling that pipeline again. And for you, that 3 month effort will have been in vain. Unless there are children, or investments involved, you have no reason to be in contact. Personal items can be replaced. Remember too, she is indeed, “a crazy bitch.”
I just found this site last night, and everything i have suffered thru for the last 3 years, without even a name to call it, has finally crystallized into something i can put my head around. “It” exhibits every single one of these behaviors. With the added bonus of physically attacking me when it gets really bad. It even Split my lip open at my freaking GRANDPARENTS house. It only shows crocodile remorse or accountability when it knows that i’m getting serious about leaving, which I have now resolved to do. It’s gonna take some time as I am recently bouncing back from a long unemployment. You have helped me to realize that trying to change “It ” is futile, and I need to get out while I still have my youth and no children. Now to maintain the ruse for the next 6-9 mos, while i construct an escape hatch. I’m very afraid of what will happen when she knows it’s for real, which is why i’m gonna have to get my shit out of the house while she’s away somehow.
Hey Don, what was her take on your long term unemployment ? guess that was your fault too, did you find that added to her personality disorder was a double wamy ! and even more difficult to deal with ?
Here’s a corker! I was once playing tennis with my Ex and she skyed the ball over wire fence. Because I asked a young lady to throw the ball back over fence my Ex gave me merry hell for rest of the day accusing me of always eyeing up other women. It was quite bizarre!
Sad thing is I started to think “hey do I flirt ALWAYS with women like she says I do.” They can get in your mind and make you start to believe their bull shit.
Exactly. You start out as your strong confident self, and by the end you can no longer rely on your own reality testing. A dangerous place to be.
Thanks to this amazing site, I’m seeing red flags much sooner. Most recent experience – a woman who I’d been seeing for LESS THAN TWO WEEKS demanded that I completely exculpate and actively remove from my life in every way any female friend who I happened to have dated. Now, my NPD ex is not among these women, and I do have a couple of mature, healthy relationships with women who I’ve previously dated. This woman hadn’t seen us interact together nor was she willing to entertain the idea.
I can just imagine what would have happened if I’d agreed to the demand. A few months from now she’d be asking me to grow five inches.
Yes and my Ex even went so far as to demand I didn’t see friends that were single (males friends) because they would lead me astray!!! No dear, your unreasonable, wild and vicious behaviour is what leads me astray…Why even the Pope would be tempted if he had you in his life.
As it was I went along with this demand because the arguement was just not worth it and I would never even get my say let alone a chance of winning the arguement.
But now I can see my friends whenever I want…Isn’t life grand!
Unfortunately I could answer YES to just about all but 3 and of those three, just slightly changing some of the question details would result in a perfect score… my Ex NPD/BPD started out like the usual… dressed to kill, seductive from the first 5 minutes together, she was all over me like flies on sh*t, but since it was New Years Eve not a lot of people noticed, and normally I would be very uncomfortable with that much public PDA even with a long time gf, I kinda overlooked it, except it happened several times on our first few dates the same kind of seduction, while I would ask for some space and to have some decent conversation about my career objectives (which she slowly eradicated me from even mentioning eventually..) she told me that was ‘boring’ and just wanted to makeout… I was definitely not happy about that from the start. Little did I know this chameleon was planning and plotting from the get-go. As time went by she followed the NPD/BPD play-book perfectly… belittling me for having ‘feelings’ for her or her daughter, keeping the sex hot only as a ‘hook’ to keep me from straying as it became less and less and less frequent (I once joked I could still apply for the Priesthood and be in the near sexless relationship she had created we me), while at the same time always asking how good she was, very fearful of my silence or honest reply. The devaluing and slow descent downward was a constant battle with her, where I continued to maintain that I needed my own boundaries and would put her at arms length every so often.. and quickly I would get the cold shoulder, silent treatment.. I kept notes and tabs on her behaviors to just check myself however. I laughed sometimes at how she would try to reward me for doing things only for her and her family, while my needs, wants, desires, business meant nothing and eventually I meant nothing… she literally tried to beat me down every step of the way, gaslighting and raging, being passive-aggressive, screeching over the phone, never showing up on time for dates or visits, demanding that she be treated ‘special’, bending and ignoring any rules I had even in my own home, manipulating, lying and deliberately sabotaging…and talk about a dirty mouth.. she can make truckers look like nuns with some of the god awful stuff that she blurts out… it runs in the family. She has a nutcase Borderline mother who has rage attacks at the kids and husband in English and foreign language, and is obviously a very unhappy soul. Misery loves company. My ex qualifies as one of the angriest, nuttiest, most unstable, raging lunatic females I’ve ever met… and I didn’t really see it coming.. her persona doesn’t match her looks/body.. or the sweet/sensitive side of her you can tell is a wounded part of her..her inner child. She acts very young at times too, another dead giveaway that she has these projected identities inside of her, split off from her conscious mind (angry parent). In fact when she rolls into a rage, her eyes just go blank..dark… vacant.. she’s not really there. Some disgusting tyrant is instead, and its scary because she doesn’t seem to have an ounce of empathy or real feeling for her victims, only herself. Once after a rage, she was crying.. because her daughter was terrified and crying, but due to her sickness she couldn’t put two and two together to realize that SHE created the rage and fear and trauma for the child !!! She was crying for her inner child as well I’m sure…
Its a long list of actual events, but suffice to say, these girls are real soul-murderers… they will induce PTSD into you if you don’t know what that is like, just sit in a combat zone for a few months without sleeping, listening to gunfire and bombs going off at random… and when you’re exhausted and just want to shut it all off… listen some more until you’re about to have a nervous breakdown. Yes.. what these women do is the same thing, only its more insidious because they PRETEND to LOVE YOU when in fact they want to destroy you. At least an enemy hurtling shells at you or planting land mines is honest about his intention to kill you, and that offers your psyche some form of protection, you know that you need to be on guard/vigilante. However when you’re dating a woman who is telling you to open up, let her in, drop your guard she wants to be closer to you, its a Trojan horse filled with vile disgust and hatred that she does not want to own herself..its split off from her raging self, but its energy she cannot own and wants you to own and act out. That way she can hate YOU instead of herself, something she cannot face.
What I have done to ween myself out of the situation was to make myself an impossible target for her to control. I would ‘feign’ being under her spell, and give her the same sort of clues that I would do what pleased her.. let her relax her guard a bit, and then just lambaste her back with the same gobs of shit she hurled at me, forcing her to feel off kilter and getting her to react instead, and simply laughing in her face about it. That really sets off their rage, but since they have hit & run tactics, I learned how to just dodge it and cut her off. She is the type to just stew with anger for eternity. Eventually her not too bright self started to realize the pattern, that I was not sincerely playing along with her, and that I was a bit too smart for the child’s play and my empathy and sympathy had run dry for her. Not too surprisingly, realizing that her vampirism had run its course and there was no more blood to suck, she quickly vanished, no apologies, no remorse, no sentimentality, no signs of anything human.. just pleas, threats, rages, more pleas, negotiations to get a few of her belongings back that were still in my possession. Funny part was she would never “go out of my way” to return any of mine in the past, I’d have to make those arrangements. So remembering that, I just sat on it. Never made a move to appease her, just played around with her via txt msging… kinda funny when the Mouse turns on the Cat and mawls it for a while. I’m convinced NPD/BPD women are the most fickle, unstable, psychotic, warped fragile souls out there… but they will suck your soul dry even if you try to help them. But even when you’re dealing with their rage, as an adult, its important to realize that its NOT an adult.. its really a little child.. a scared little angry child and its FEAR they are expressing, inside out.. only their mind can’t translate it as such. You have to. You have to see just what an infantile response they consistently display, and how their minds are quite handicapped, robotic, de-sensitized, and traumatized themselves. I don’t encourage anyone to stop a runaway train-wreck however. The damage is mind boggling…
Holy crap.. that was good!
Well, what if you’re with a woman who is aware that her behavior is toxic and is self-aware enough to know that she needs to change, but for some reason always gets sucked back into old ultra-suspicious, argumentative, and jealous habits?
She tries to consciously back off a little when she is able to recognize it, but often she can’t see how she’s even at fault and she’s a genius at making her point and making me feel in the wrong. She’s wonderful otherwise, but can’t let go of my past gfs and accuses me of having feelings for them. I just feel like if I could tell her something to reassure her that she’s the only one I love, things might be different for us. She’s not completely hopeless, anyway. But still a little crazy…
“Does she exhibit stalker behaviors? This usually occurs during the courtship phase or when she senses you’re about to make a break for it. ”
YES! It has intensified in the recent few months… try to guess why! Because I have shown signs of getting better and that is a threat to her! If I get better… if I get more strength… I can get out of this! And she is afraid, VERY AFRAID! But she is also telling me sometimes that we need to break up – but it doesn’t make sense, because then she is stalking me and clearly afraid that I will actually leave ON MY OWN TERMS!
The articles here are fantastic. It’s like reading my own life from them. It helps a lot to realise that I may in fact have chance at a decent life some time in the future just as long as I can dump this CRAZY BITCH!
I’m one day into the break up and my head isn’t right. Like a lot of guys in the comments, I can’t tell which way is up/down and who’s right or wrong. I’ve been with the same girl 3 years. Beautiful, sweet, but emotionally unstable – we consistently have one bad week a month (arguing) when she gets her PMS. Jeckyl & Hyde stuff. And a lot of behaviors mentioned in the article. We’re both in our mid-late 30s with a couple crash and burn relationships (me = never married, 1 kid from old previous relationship). My girl who I just split with was married twice, and one common law marriage (10 years, and she has 3 kids from the first two marriage. All three of which she gave up to run off with the common law marriage guy. Who she left to be with me. 3 years in and one week shy of our anniversary, she say she wants to break up. That was yesterday. Throughout the relationship I made excuses for her mood swings and irritability, and lovingly tolerated it. I feel like I’ve always given 75% of the energy in the union and her 25%. I was her emotional caretaker thrgouh the whole 3 years. Nursing her through crying jags, jealousy fits, and more. I ran out of steam and tolerance for it all about 1 year ago. She moved out. But we stayed together and fought through more ups and downs. Not much changed. Then I really ran out of steam in the last 3 months, now – big surprise – she says she wants to break up. We met up. I offered to try to keep us working on the relationship and specifically herself – but she wasn’t having it. Clean break. I’m spent and tired, but still guilt tripping myself on what I could have done different as far as drawing boundaries and such. Oh, well. It’s done. I need to forget it. But I’ll take any advice you guys got. Thanks.
Ha! My ex-wife to a “T”! Alcoholic and definately a personality disorder of some sort. She uses device control of sorts too. Good thing we didn’t have children. I got out of my divorce scott free since she is a prideful woman and refused to ask for support from me though she will not let me have my court ordered personnel effects back and it has been five months now. She now wants me to give the dogs back but tough luck. She can barely take care of herself let alone another life and she has two great boys that I connected with that she will not allow me to speak to while villifying me to them. I’m trying to be brief with my experience but the “crazy train” was maxed out for the three years we were married. Her accusations and complaints got to be so absurd there was no way in hell I could force my self to believe everything was my fault like she was determined to make me believe. I have never been to the emergency room so much in my whole life!
My wife was ultra jealous. I worked long hours as a delivery driver for a beer company where there was no time for affairs. My wife would accuse me of cheating and when I would show her my blackened by ten hours of hard work hands and ask which woman would let me touch her naked body with them it didn’t phase her. Taking her kids fishing meant I was cheating on her. Playing mens softball meant I was cheating. Working on the front yard meant I was cheating. Helping my dad paint the house meant I was cheating!
Normal, even keeled women exist. You’ll see. Be patient and enjoy your life.
JD LLoyd says
I appreciate the posts and info here very much. Ive been with a girl that exhibits some of this behavior for about 8 mths. I havent been perfect, and she lets me know. She calls me the devil and a wolf in sheeps clothing when i try to do things for her, citing that im just manipulating her to play some sick game or to get back at her for something.(she gave me an std and i accepted it and forgave her, she had it from the beginning and didnt fess up till i had physical effects and i asked questions) she also had tried to get with someone else telling me later that she just wanted to see if i cared about her for real or not. and i let it go because i love her. later in the relationship i lied to her in fear of her not believeing me and thinking i was cheating, i told her i was at home when i was out with the guys to eat. i have never lived it down. I can understand her feeling betrayed but i would never cheat on her. we work together and when i walk down the halls at work at the same time as another girl,not even talking or anything, it means to her i must be doing something with that person, and several times she has broken up with me because of it. I always try sooo hard to prove my love and faithfulness to her to no avail. She has since broken up with me and has told me she doesnt know who i am and that ive been her downfall, that ive pulled her away from her family, friends and church. Yet when i try still to talk to her, she still responds back and says leave me alone i dont believe you. Everyone ive talked to about it has told me that she is controlling me and using me, but i wonder and question myself and think if i just had told her that i was with my friends or if i didnt walk down the hall at the same time as this girl or that girl, or if i wouldnt have blown her off a few times early on to go with friends(with her approval at the time, only for her to weaponize it later and say she was lieing to herself when she said she was ok with it.Am i experiencing the same thing as everyone else here? Am i to blame for some of it? I am so confused and upset i have no idea what to do, no matter how good ive been any little thing she can snowball she does until she reaches the point we have now where she says im manipulating her to control her and make her do what i want when in reality ive tried to do anything but that HELP PLEASE I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO I LOVE HER
Well my girlfriend who most definitely has the NPD used to get upset if I would do something without her.
Of course this bullshit was exposed many times when she went out with her co-students or co-workers and sometimes she didn’t tell me what she was doing. For example when she was a student and lived in another city I only heard afterwards about some of her partying nights. This would have been okay had she not demanded me to tell her if I go out with my friends. I thought she had been as open to me as I was to her and I have to say it did hurt me when I found out she had not applied the same standard of openness to herself that she was demanding from me.
It is so obvious double standards at work – I didn’t understand it then but I understand it now.
I think when someone is trying to control you like that they are the ones who have mental health issues, not you. Why would a grown-up adult with otherwise a good life feel a need to do that? What are they so afraid of that they need to control you like that? It’s puzzling, but that’s how it is with some people unfortunately.
🙂 I know I am perfectly capable of going for a walk without my NPD gf telling me how to do it. But yet she tells me how to do it many times – or in fact basically tells me I am doing something wrong – it’s just a bit of a mystery what the ‘wrong’ part of that is. I guess she doesn’t know it very well either! 🙂
Man this is such a revealing blog post. Been married for 8 years, got 2 kids aged 6 and 4. Nearly all boxes ticked on the front literally. Spent the last 2 years wondering if I’m the batshit one. Then I recently realised she took all my friends away via alienation. Have no money – the bitch spends it all before I get a chance to do anything with it so can’t afford a lawyer. Live in rags myself with absolutely nothing. Do all the cooking, cleaning everything. She pretends theres loads of stuff wrong with her but she’s just lazy and it allows her to belittle me (apparently I do a bad job of everything despite everything being microscopically clean). She says she loves me one day, then hates me the next.
I nearly bailed after Christmas last year and hit the streets but I stayed for the kids because I love them dearly. Cardboard box under a bridge looked more like home.
Thanks for all the positive comments on here. Starting to put my life into perspective.
Me and my gf had a huge argument for the first time (i say the first time because this is the first time i said anything back.) And I said I didn’t know if we could work out and she guilt tripped me back just so I wouldn’t feel sad. Then she got mad and left. All normal so far. This is the part that made me think she had changed and I felt sooooooooo good like there was hope. She told me(email) everything was fine blah blah blah some amazing stuff. And I started off my day soooooo happy I knew things were gonna be better off from there. But there truely is no hope with these women later that day she brings it up and says that she still can’t believe I said what I said and that she would and has never been that low with me before. (OMG- she is f*cking crazy she puts me down everyday of my life) If i say something stupid she makes sure I feel like shit. Then she says that she has never done anything like that. I am two seconds away from breaking up with my love, only because she is insane, and I cannot take this abuse and selfisness from her.
WOW…I can answer yes to a number of these for my ex…but it gets better. I think I’m a magnet because i can answer yes with respect to my current with. It’s ok you can laugh, I am. I’ll probably be crying later though.
I have never in my life seen something like this – every single post looks like I could have written it myself. Yes she is a bitch! And yes – I agree with every single one of you guys – I’ve experienced ALL OF THE ABOVE
Every single relationship I’ve EVER been in has been with an abusive woman and both my mother and my older sister were abusive toward me – so that the only relationship I know is this type – I would give anything to meet a healthy woman but apparently when I do well I’m not sure but I guess they either scare the hell out of me or else I just don’t find them attractive – I don’t know what it is all I know is that every single relationship I’ve ever had with a woman has ALWAYS been like this – slight variations and some worse than others – but none the less they’ve all been nuts – every single one of them and yes I am the type of person that tends to doubt his own “reality” I’m always thinking it must be me – I must be wrong or I must have made the mistake
Brian J says
My ex gf was not the raging type. When she got mad she would play extremely angry and explicit rap music. She was very passive aggressive. She said she had a very abusive past full of abandonment. That should of been my cue to run but Im a rescuer and dove in. There is no saving these women. They are a bottomless pit of need. They more than not have a deep hatred and mistrust of men. You will never do enough say enough or be enough for them. They will suck all the life out of you.
10 out of 17. The sad thing is that I ended the relationship due to the abuse but I still think about her. How crazy is that???
It has been quite an eye opener to be reading some of these articles. I began reading more about BPD and have to say it sounds alot like my live in girlfriend. Here we are, a few days before xmas, and she has left yet again. She won’t pick up her phone or respond to emails. She has left numerous times and knows it really hurts me when she does so. One minute we are fine and she seems happy, and then something will happen and BOOM…I have never seen anyone get so angry, nor have I ever questioned myself so much as to what sort of person I am.
She tried to kill herself at this time last year. And I could feel something building again. Last night, she came from out of the bedroom where she had been laying all day and found me having a couple of beers after work. She hates drinking and says she was traumatized by a step mother who was an alcoholic. Last summer when she was on her anti drinking campaign I quit entirely for two months, thinking it was not worth the hell to have a beer…yet nothing changed during those two months, her focus just moved to other issues. I feel so run down in this relationship and realize I am actually afriad of her wild mood swings.
As I mentioned, she tried to kill herself last year…and when let out of the hospital, refused to take any of the medications prescribed by the psychiatrist or even see a therapist…saying she is perfectly fine. Lately, I can see the same pattern unfolding as last year…from bigger things like her explosions to small things like her stating again and again that even our pets do not really love her, they like her for food, whereas she feels they all love me for who I am…but not her.
I asked her not to leave last night, mentioning that she may not be seeing things clearly due to her deep depression and that these things can be cyclical. And I was also worried about what she would do as it is almost to the day last year when she attempted to kill herself by drowning herself in the ice cold lake by our home. She told me that I was entirely responsible for her suicide attempt last year and walked out.
To be honest, I feel so shell shocked I don’t really know up from down and cannot find my bearings. Any advice from the fine people on here would be welcome. Thanks.
I recommend you keep reading the blogs, forum and Shari Schreiber’s site http://www.sharischreiber.com/articles.html. If she’s as you describe, those resources should give you a pretty good idea of what you might be dealing with. After that, finding a therapist who understands Personality Disorder could help you sort things out. I can tell you from experience that it’s really hard to find your way out of the forest when you’re constantly dodging falling trees and branches are coming down around you.
Yeah, I got 14 out of that list. The separation was incredibly hard. I can’t remember all the times she said “If you don’t do this, you won’t see your kids” It was awful. My Doctor, after reading her e-mails to me, said she was for sure Borderline Personality Disorder along with Projective Identification. I think it is just very hard for us men to admit that we were in abusive relationships….we have to be “STRONG”.
Holy crap, I thought this was sort of a joke site til I really got into to it and started answering almost every question with yes… I’ve been in my relationship for 3 years now and its been bad at times and good a lot of the time but since I moved in and we had a kid 9 months ago its been a disaster. She constantly turns a small issue like I took a nap into major family issues. Now I know I’m no prince charming but I cannot be as bad as she makes me out to be. I love my son and I’m honestly scared to death of him growing up in this environment. I mostly feel lost and feel like what I do to appease her is never enough.
I have found my own defense mechanism. I just don’t care. I think the next step is I quit but I am trying for the children.
Why would someone keep calling and calling and calling to yell at another party over the phone? When will they realize that I’m just going to hang hp the instant it starts and then turn off the phone if it continues. Also why dose she call the work phone and want to chat for hours at a time. I’ve told her repeatedly IM WORKING. I don’t have time to chat on the phone with her. She the says I’m rude to her. It’s maddening
Thank you, thank you, thank you doctor.
Without shrink4men I don’t know how I would have coped with the last few months.
I have finally escaped, sadly without my confidence and self respect, but at least with some sanity. All of which feel more and more repairable with every page I read on your site.
I answered yes to 10 of the above questions.
“I know you think I’m a crazy bitch!”, she says.
I have never once mentioned those words. But since I am always wrong, she must be right!
Good luck everyone and safe passage through the madness.
Again, thanks doc!
What breaks my heart is that she will never admit that she has a problem. Why?
Wow, my ex satisfies over 50% of that lot! We have 2 kids and she chucked me out after having a 3 days weird psycho stretch and made me loose my home, family, job, everything after 7 years together. She moved on to a new guy DAYS later (probably from before). Good luck to him!!!! Strange that I didn’t really notice how bad she was until it was all over. True how they say that love is blind……
its good you are out man… “Strange that I didn’t really notice how bad she was until it was all over” is so true. I love the fact that I dont stress over the tiny things anymore. It makes life so much more bearable. Good luck man.
I can answer yes to so many of those.. Ive been married for a year and a few months. We have a 3 1/2 year old baby girl and another baby girl on the way in about 6 weeks. My wife is usually a loving person and I care about her dearly. I have never ever cheated on her (been together 5 1/2 years) or given her reason to think otherwise.
She has such a pissed off attitude about 80% of the time. Im a stay at home father/homemaker that always has the house spotless and all the laundry, cleaning, etc etc finished at all times. I want to work but its just not affordable because of child care. She overreacts to little stuff, alienates HERSELF from family and friends, feels that her feelings are the only ones that matter, has NO patience. (hence the webpage loading question) and Im always the target. its my fault that the computer is running slow. or its my fault that Im driving slow when its snowing for safety reasons..) its getting old and anytime I speak up about it, I get lashed out at and if I have a strong feeling about something and want to speak MY side she calls me my father (which he passed away in 2008) they butted heads but he apologized for it before he died and she still pushes that in my face. thats not right to do. Im a laid back guy and dont deserve this. She flies into a rage and throws stuff around the house and breaks things but the minute I get upset and drop my fist on the table, its like Im the antichrist. Im tired of being brow beaten and emotionally pummeled. i do EVERYTHING for this woman and Im 31 and living with this. She has a bunch of past family issues and thats fine but IM NOT THEM. Its embarassing because she hates my friends, she doesnt like my mother, she wants to judge everyone and everything. I need help. I love her but she is driving me away with this. I hate being accused of things and her assuming Im mad when I not at all and she just throws her hands up and walks away. and I dont even say anything, if you think Im mad, ASK ME. isnt that the normal thing to do? I mean last time I checked, Id can have feelings too dammit.
thanks for listening.
Hi Josh! Your wife, my wife, all these wives are the same exact person. Past family issues, learned behavior from mom, always angry and then suddenly loving, etc. They cut you off from reality (friends, family, hobbies) and once you’re isolated they keep you off balance and questioning YOUR sanity. It is going to get a lot worse, believe me. I have eight more years in my nightmare due to protecting my kids (California will bend me over and abandon my kids to this monster) but I’m documenting, getting outside counsel (without her knowing), planning my escape and am going to get video as well. Step one is to confide in someone that won’t talk to her and get your balance back. You’ve got to get perspective before you can plan an escape. Good Luck Brother!
Zappo Blappo says
Your wife sounds just like my X. I’ve been doing substantial reading about Personality Disorders and found that scientists in the field of Neuroscience are making some significant headway in understanding the genetic and environmental factors that result in the array of behaviors that you describe. This site provides a list of brief summaries and links to the latest research findings: http://samsnyder.com/2012/02/26/the-neuroscience-of-borderline-personality-disorder/
In answers to your key questions…Your wife’s behavior is not normal, but is sadly typical of someone with BPD (whether or not she is formally diagnosed). First, you’ll have to get past the concept that she’s your partner because she doesn’t really care about how you feel. Since you’re not a “team of highly trained psychiatrists” or providing a “Personality Disorder Community”, you should abandon hope of curing her, saving her, or fixing her. Given that, you’ll need to determine if you can live with what you have through a time-boxed life experiment. I’d suggest giving it 6-12 months because you have kids involved. You’ll need at least a couple of close friends to keep you honest with yourself. (she doesn’t need to know about these friends) The experiment includes the following changes that you’ll make in your behavior: (1) Set several personal boundaries and be extremely consistent and firm, yet unemotional about them. There are some excellent sources out there on boundary setting. (2) Make your own sacred space and time free of the kids and her at least once a week for an hour…it doesn’t matter where you go. You might want to get a dog to walk, even a neighbor’s dog will do. (3) Keep a personal journal as objectively as you can as if you were a journalist. It can be electronic and stored on a thumb drive. Don’t store it anywhere that she could find it and don’t write in it when she’s around. Especially look for patterns in her behavior. (4) Stop trying to please her by reaching for perfection. This simply makes the personality disorder worse. Instead, expect that she has a “quota” of angst, frustration, and yelling to get out. You may want to leave bread crumbs on a counter top or other small things intentionally to consume this negative energy. You have to stop being an emotional sponge for her outbursts and instead act like a Ninja, deflecting the negative energy past you. Resist laughing around her when you do this successfully. (5) Act professionally around her at all times. You’ve taken on the job of being a parent and she is simply emotionally unavailable. Anything you share with her can be seen as a sign of weakness and exploited later. Rely on friends and extended family members for your personal emotional sharing.
As a side note, you should be taking financial precautions, for the sake of your kids. You should also strongly consider getting a job, even if it costs more initially. You may need your financial independence. It’s amazingly difficult to live in a war-zone long-term and it’s not recommended.
WELCOME TO MY NIGHTMARE- YES TO ALL
It’s been great reading everyone’s posts…would appreciate any help here if you have time…thanks in advance!
It seems I’m feeling more and more like a shell of my self these days…I remember when I was “Mr. Positivity” and always cared (and still do) about positively influencing anyone I have an interaction with; however, my girlfriend and I fight so much I often find myself wishing I could disappear…which further complicates my already busy schedule…working 25+ hours a week, going to college-full time, amongst a myriad of other responsibilities… We’ve been living together for a year now, and have been together for 2 years…
After all of the fights that we’ve had she has never once apologized to me for anything…I always apologize, and I always feel like I absolutely cannot win…and for that matter I can probably count on both of my hands the amount of things she’s gone out of her way to do for me…
Having said that, I’ve always been a giver…throughout my entire life…even somewhat of a passive person but confident and very social and caring. I often feel like I’m walking on eggshells when were together as I’m not able to predict what type of mood she’s going to be in…the slightest slip of the tongue or memory and all hell breaks out…
To make matters worse, I’m the type of person who is all about compromise…and equality…yet when I feel she is being hypocritical(sp?) in getting so angry and screaming about something that i did or said…when she has exemplified the same exact, or nearly exact action/comment/reaction etc…yet I cannot cite these examples as she angrily responds “Oh sure, it’s all a d*ck measuring contest isn’t it?” (just the figure of speech…not literal!) or she will say “Don’t you dare compare me to you…”
On the other hand…if I’m calmly requesting her to try to merely take a step back and try and look at the situation through my perspective…she always refuses. Honestly, we argue because I refuse to be a doormat…I feel like if I defend myself in anyway it’s just adding fuel to the fire…which is fine…I’ve kind of come to grips with that…but even the most gandhi-like individual when finding themselves at the brunt of such anger and screaming will occasionally get angry too… I’m almost convinced that this is due to my innate tendency to avoid confrontation…and my inexperience with arguing…as in all of my previous relationships (with 5 years, 10 months, 2 years being the longest ones) I cannot recall more than a handful of arguments in all of those relationships combined…
When I mistakenly called her out on this fact…she then began insulting my ex’s…none of whom think ill of me…and all of them whom I respect…”She also said that this is who she is…she’s a bitch, and she tell’s it like it is…and if I don’t like it she’s sure there’s plenty of ditzy little sluts out there who will keep there mouths shut and who will ‘put out’ more”…She said this as a ‘dig’ at me because I had expressed concern over the seemingly declining intimacy…which includes sex, cuddling, kissing, etc. She also tends to blame all of this on having to wake up at 6am 4 days a week for her job…which I try to understand to a degree…which I’m sure I could do better with understanding this factor…however, she sleeps from 11pm the night before til 6pm on her off days…so we don’t spend much time together then either.
Not to mention the emotional and physical intimacy levels this relationship is very inconsistent, unpredictable, and sparingly spaced out. It was great for the first 6 months…and then it started moving downhill…and gradually to the point where it’s almost nonexistent. I actually confronted her about the decline in intimacy and referenced the fact that before the time last week it had been almost 2 months since the last time…(granted the time last week was for almost 4 hours)….
whenever we fight she blames my attitude for her anger and screaming…citing that it’s not what i say…but how I say it…and sure I have said my share of insulting things…a lot of them happened to be the truth…I actually called her the Devil once and she almost spontaneously combusted in front of me.
I did break up with her a year ago about a month after things started getting bad…as I was in a Psychopathology course and felt like I recognized a high probability of Borderline in her, and it was awful…she kept saying that I know she has issues with abandonement and that I can’t do this do her…and that she can’t live without me and that she promises that she’ll be more about me and etc etc.
I ended up caving because she said she would go to a therapist…course she has no money to do this…and because she is a one of a kind person…I just wish we could cut out the arguing..I can’t Take It Anymore!!! especially because at this point I am starting to believe that it is all my fault…she is very intelligent…and is right about a lot of things and extremely intuitive about anything not having to do with herself…she has never taken responsibility for any problems we’ve ever had…not even an I’m sorry too…or a I didn’t mean to scream at you…
Maybe she’s good at manipulating me…IDK, but I know that I’ve definitely said things once we start arguing that I probably didn’t need to or shouldn’t have said….all of which I have always owned up to…but I guess my question is…How do I crack the Code here? Am I the one who needs help?
For Instance, she flipped out at me for 3 hours when I asked her about the decline in affection…which she blamed all on her job and then started telling me that it’s “so adolescent of me and to stop acting like a child” (something she’s said probably a hundred times in response to things I say…If I talk to her in a direct manner…it’s “stop being an asshole” and if I speak to her calmly and with every word thoroughly screened before it comes out she says “alright, professor, don’t talk to me like I’m stupid, do you think I’m an idiot”)
sorry for the long post…just looking for some help here…I live with her and are lease is up in may…kind of scared to commit to another full year without being sure that I can survive it…”mentally and emotionally”
also she get’s really angry whenever I would talk about aspects of our relationship to anyone else, citing that she’s a very private person…
Yep, got that same response with my EX. She loved to tell me that she never told here friends anything bad about me.
In the end I saw two things happening:
#1. I was trying to get a reality check. Telling your problems to others you trust can give you perspective. I can’t tell you can how many times my friend have said, “Wow, that’s F@#ked up”, after I talked to them about the latest round of drama in my 7 year marriage.
#2. My EX has an external lotus of control; meaning that her sense of self worth comes from others. Because of this her life was a carefully controlled public image campaign.
BTW, about previous post, If your still living with her and your lease is up in May, keep a low profile, forget about talking to her or reasoning with her.
You’re in a position that any conflict can turn out badly for you since you’re a man and she’s a woman.
Also, read Dr.T’s article on emotional detachment, http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/12/09/emotional-detachment-when-the-no-contact-rule-is-not-an-option/.
Also, I recommend going to the Shrink4Men index and work your way through the articles. It will be very educational.
Excellent advice! I wish I would have heard your advice years ago. Thank you for writing.
Sounds like you belong here. Keep reading and check out the forum. Since you already have some knowledge of Cluster Bs through you Psycopathology course, things should fall into place pretty quickly.
The only other advice it to be careful while you sort things out. Since she’s already expressed her abandonment concerns to you, if she thinks you’re contemplating leaving again, she could react in a number of unpleasant ways.
The always-you-who-apologizes and your feeling that you can’t win will never change. Add to that the evaporating intimacy, and what do you have left with her? Not much.
You seem to have a solid analytical mind and hence a good grasp of what’s going on here. And yet you’re unsure about ending it. It seems to me that when you confront her with legitmate issues her response is basically to steamroll over you one way or another. In other words, she’s a bully. And that’s when you lose your force. Why?
My guess is you’re probably not used to being treated that way, and since there’s a whole other side to her that you care for and respect, you have a hard time accepting that the bully side is the ‘real her’. And since you tend to avoid conflict anyway you prefer to sort of throw up your hands in confusion over her erratic behavior than take the action that I suspect you know in your heart of hearts is necessary.
People have differents selves. You have to be able to live with all of them if the relationship is to work for you. She is terrific in some ways, but she also has strong BPD and narc traits and they won’t go away and you can’t fix them and you’ll never get her to see things the way you do, or get some ‘aha’ moment from her that signals the beginning of some sea change in how she operates.
She will always make you feel ‘less than’ because she always has to feel in control. No matter how you stand up for yourself–gently and compassionately, or forcefully–she will punish you for the crime of challenging her supremacy. And each time…to make things ‘right’ again, you will have eat more sh*t and give up more autonomy and self-respect. To rationalize this cycle of humiliation to yourself you will have to engage in increasingly intricate mental gymnastics that will leave you depressed and confused and with fewer and fewer resources for managing the other demands in your life like work and school.
Your self esteem has already taken a hit from this synamic and it will get worse over time.
Don’t renew that lease, my friend. It will only get worse. You need to extract yourself from her clutches sooner rather than later. Don’t be like me . . . I am married and have a son with my borderline soon-to-be-ex. I bought land, built a house, and am coworkers with the psycho bitch. I stand to lose everything (my son, my property, and my job, for starters), but I can’t stand another day of being physically assaulted and having insults and obscenities screamed into my face in my own home. Don’t be like me. Get out ASAP.
Sorry dude. That sounds like it sucks but you’re doing the right thing. Keep plugged in and let us know how you’re doing.
Totem – Hang in there and then get out of there. 99% of the posts you’ll read are about “nice guys” like us who are convinced we’re dealing with rational people. These women are monsters, and I mean that very literally. These sadists are masters at hiding who they are because their lives depend on non-exposure. Document, document and document. God Bless Brother!
Thank you Dr. Tara for helping us in this very bad situation in our lives. I can’t believe how many guys are in the same cruise ship from hell. My wife was like this before we got married. She would specialize on the catch and release theory. Be very nice and generous and then when your happy blow up on you. I married her because she got pregnant and wouldn’t have an abortion, we were broken off for 2 months and somehow the last time we were together i got her pregnant. i was 25 and stupid to think that if i did the right thing and married her she would change. was i ever wrong. Everyone that had met her including my family warned me not to get married with her i could still support my child without having to be with her. but i didn’t listen, i wanted my kid to grow up with a father at home. 3 kids later and countless times kicked out of my house in 17 years, i am completly drained of all emotion and as i’m writing this i found an apartment and signing the lease today. i haven’t said anything to her yet but this time i am gone. The examples you give here are just a tip of the iceburg. i would need 500 pages to tell my story. To sum up the book i can write, from the time we got married, she never went back to work to take care of the children, i give her anything she wants, my kids have everything under the sun including cell phones from 10 years old and i am a good provider, for that, i don’t speak with any family members anymore, have no friends outside work. She is like a pitbull, ready to attack anyone and anything in site. I wanted to ask you about one thing that i couldn’t understand all these years. During the holidays, especially christmas, i have to take out a loan for christmas gifts because she thinks christmas is once a year and anyone she knows has to get the most expensive gifts she can think of, is that part of the catch and release theory i have lived through all these years?
Thanks for being there!
yours started exactly like mine. I cant tell whether or not you ended it by your post but I really hope you get out of this situation. I did at 27 (10 years together) 2 with kid.. and it has been the best thing I have done for myself. The kids understand. My daughter took great to it and shes rediculously smart for a now going on 3 year old. My stress stopped immediately after I kicked her out. Things are so much better now. Good luck!
Well, I don’t know how to classify my current girlfriend.
I care about her and 80% of the time she is sweet, loving and caring and is a joy to be with. Then she will go crazy, perhaps probe into my past. Ask about old girlfriends from years past or my ex wife. If I refuse to answer, she will get angry. If I do answer then she gets really mad and jealous. She wont let it go and it is a no win situation.
I should have known she was a bit crazy when I met her because she has 7 cats that she “saved”, but I like cats (although having none myself) and so ignored that glaring fact.
The other day she made me burn all my old wedding photos from my previous marriage, god forbid she finds a photo of an old girlfriend. Any girl I mention in relation to anything, work, past, study…. the question comes up, did you sleep with her??? WTF!! some of the people she is suspicious of are married or twice my age… When she gets in these moods, she says that there will be no new experiences with her, as I have done it all before.
The fact that I remained on good terms with my wife drives my current gf crazy. She wants me to be mean to my ex and to make life difficult for her. That is something I don’t want to do, as I have good access to my kids and don’t want to “go to war” with my ex and spoil that.
With my gfs crazy moods, after about 3-12 hours she usually settles down and apologises and all is well again, until the next time. Which is about once a week. The thing is it can be going great one minute and then turns bad in about 2 seconds and no logic can reach her and no avoiding photos or emails will stop it, as she will always find something to go off about.
From what everybody says, I guess I should cut my losses and leave her sooner rather than later.
When she is at my flat, I am getting paranoid that she will find an old birthday card or email or letter or photo etc, etc. and go off the deep end. It makes me worry about our long term future.
The relationship now has a life of its own and I feel bad for ending it. Especially when we had been planning a future together but now I think that would be a serious mistake.
Thanks for any input
She made you burn your old wedding pictures, wants you to be mean to your ex-wife and makes you worry about what she’ll find in your apartment. Doesn’t sound promising.
The way I see it you have three options:
(1) Leave now before things get worse and don’t look back. The longer this goes on, the worse it’s likely to get.
(2) Figure out what you want, stand up for yourself, and set down firm boudaries and expectations. If she agrees and comes around, you saved the relationship. Based on the fact you did burn your old wedding pictures, it seems that you’ve ceded control to her. In her mind, she owns you. You’re going to have to fight to make it back to equal. My guess is she’ll not react well to your standing up for yourslf.
(3) Accept her for what she appears to be and live with it. As you have already figured out, it would likely be a serious mistake but it is an option.
Option 1 appears to be your best bet. Option 2 does have the possibility of a favorable outcome but it’s not likely and it carries considerable risk. Option 3 just plain stinks.
Holy Crap!! I answered YES to 14 of the above statments. Now I KNOW I did the right and kick her to the curb. I keep printed this and keep it in my coat pocket to remind me when ever I get a urge to call her. And she was talking marriage. The first 6 months were awsome, then thing began to degrade and spiral out of control rapidly.
Wow, I honestly had no idea that there were so many people in this same predicament. My ex-wife (divorced over a year) met all criteria minus the lipstick question. It is truly amazing how diabolical that they can be about making you feel like everything is your fault and how they make you feel lower than dirt. I spent 10 years with this woman and had a child with her on the 7th year. Things were always really rocky and since I am a very committed person I figured that this was something that you must just deal with. Well im here to tell you know that no matter how nice of a guy that you are or how much you feel that you can deal with it, these people will rip your world apart piece by piece until you cant even figure out which way is up. I can honestly say that when I kicked her out (infidelity on her part) that I honestly didnt even know who I was anymore. The last year of my relationship, I actually contemplated disappearing and not coming back. Problem is that I have/had a daughter with her that means the world to me. So I stayed until I couldnt bare it anymore. Im simply saying this because this article meant a lot to me and the comments that have been posted below mean even more to me. IMHO if you are even looking at this article you are already 1 step to getting away from that. Wish that I would have read it a lot earlier than last year for that matter. ALSO I will tell you that once you are out of it and start rebuilding who you were before you were caught in this tornado, you will realize that you have adapted to such horrible stress that even day to day life doesnt even bother you anyomore…i.e. finances, jobs, etc… It will make you a happier person and I never even knew what burden I was carrying until I was out. So please if you are in this situation or at least think you are, you need to get out of it asap before it destroys who you are. FYI, once you have a kid it never stops. You will never get this person 100% out of your life and furthermore, the games never stop either. The only time I am EVER uncomfortable is when I am around her. I recieved promotions upon promotions at work, triple my income, and I am a great father…Please take my advice and bail while you can and break the vicious cycle. Thanks.
So I appreciate the previous post. I think that my now ex has these issues. She was a liar who constantly claimed that she never lies. Her pet name for me was dirt squirrel. She was always angry at someone and would spend an entire day talking about that person. When she was drunk we would argue. I would leave her place. Then the text message explosion would start. I wouldn’t reply and that would just make things worse. A regular message would be that she loves me, followed by how awful I am. Tell me that I blame her for everything and that I’m overly dramatic. There were promises of sex that never happened. About 10 times in 6 months. I apologized constantly she never did. She made me feel like I was abusive. Any time I called her on anything I was being cruel. The worst part though… She came out of an abusive relationship so what could I do.
I broke up with her today. Unfortunately I still work with her. Any advice?
sorry, meant to say that we only had sex about ten times in six months
Chase m says
Well, as long as you have no kids you should be free Nd clear of her. No ammo. Its not an easy road because its weird, almost like you get used to the abuse. Almost like smoking, (I smoke) ya know it’s bad but ya just keep doing it. Once you pull yourself away long enough, you will be able to tell instantly who you are. I wish you the best of luck. 1 more thing. You might as well give up on getting the last word in bc they will never let it happen. Try not to think to yourself omg I can’t believe this is happening to me and try to figure a solution. There isnt one, get it out of your head. There is no winning or losing with these people so just walk away and stay confident. Hope that helps man, good luck!
Chase m says
Btw mine was “drama-queen” or she would call me her father. When she was drunk she would get very violent. I had the ability to press charges on her once, I wish I would’ve.
Thank you! I have found myself feeling terrible for breaking it off with her. Guilty that I am hurting her. WTF??? Lol
great to see I’m not alone, i ranked up 10 “yes’s” to the above set of questions. SIGH.
Hello. Im 22 and Ive been in a relationship for seven months with a girl that has admitted to having borderline personality disorder. This is the first serious relationship Ive been in and she took my virginity. I actually met her through her ex boyfriend she was living with him and off him at the the time and their relationship wasnt really going anywhere. I know not the best of circumstances to start out with. My friend told me at first, dont get involved because you will just take his spot but then he said If you really like her than do it. So things seemed great at first, she ended up leaving and moving in with me at my moms big house. She seemed to be helping my relationship with my mom but then one day she flipped claiming that my brother stole some of her stuff, I dont know for sure of he did, but she ended up calling the cops on my mom cause she overreated and tried to grab my girlfriends phone. So now my mom kicks her out, she talks me into moving out with her cause her mom wont let her stay. I agree then I realize I have no reason to move out other than to take care of her. So I decide to stay at my moms while still giving her a ride to work and to her apartment, it starts to take a toll me especially when she stops giving me gas money and I have to beg her for it. One day I just get fed up and stop answering her calls and taking her to work because I was feeling used. My brother said she was using me. I feel so ripped apart, I think im just addicted though, so I give in and I stay in contact with her and now all of a sudden she wants to talk with this church group i go to when she stopped before. She has phsycially abused me and cused me out a million times, my gut is telling me to leave but its hard, and I right? Im losing all confindence in our relationship.
You’re young and you will hopefully meet someone healthier next time around. “She has physically abused me.” There’s no excuse for this. Staying in the relationship means you condone her behavior. Get some support from your family and friends and cut this woman out of your life.
Wow! 14 Yes’s, in fact the lipstick one was the only firm no.
We’ve only been married for a year but both have prior families. I have 4 kids. She has 5 kids of varying levels of disfunctionality. Luckily, we have none together and never will. I am fixed!
The smartest thing I ever did in my life was have her sign a prenup!.
I have a couple of questions. Is there any way to diffuse these people or respond when they go off?
My wife will start in on me and I will be calm and use rational arguements and she just changes the subject. She often makes derogatory comments about my dead first wife and even implied that I was having an incestual relationship with my daughter. These statements are hurtful especially since I literally watched my first wife die. It’s completely freaking insane and I always make sure doors are open or there is a second person in any room when I talk to the kids just in case!
How do I get rid of her? I have told her to leave before and she refuses. I own sole title on the house and like I said have a prenup. So I guess I just go to a lawyer? Anybody know how that process works? The thought scares me because she is abusive in that she frequently menaces me and refuses me passage from rooms. She has also thrown things. What do I do if I think she is potentially violent?
I just want her gone.
Ksechler – I’ve found that Diffusing the situation is difficult but possible. Most of the posts I’ve read about this I can concur. Avoid “feeding” her emotionally, detatched and emotionless statements like “that’s not true” and “I don’t agree” let her know that she’s not in control and that she’ll have to try a different technique to gain control. These monsters often switch tactics on the fly and are masters at wearing you down. Document, document and document. I’m getting a video camera as most of the time I can tell when my little sadist is ramping up for a tirade. Bad news, it’s going to get uglier…the good news, now you know she’s a different animal and you don’t have to internalize her abuse…you know enough to view her as sadistic species who has little capacity for any normal feelings except her desire to control and abuse. It’s a sickness and it’s contagious. Good luck Brother!
To ksechler: I think the lipstick thing can be applied to other ‘cosmetics’ – as in, does she do everything to excess? Hairspray, perfume, jewelry, just everything over the top and thinks she needs to have the best of the best?
If your partner is violent, unfortunately, the best thing for you to do it get out. Get your children out. Get yourself somewhere safe.
There is a law in MN that states if one spouse makes the home ‘inhospitable’ for the other (the case sited involved one spouse inviting someone to live there without the will or consent of the other spouse), then the offended spouse can leave the home, without it being considered abandonment. I forget the phrase, as it’s been a few years since I looked it up in our local county law library.
The essence of the law is that; If one spouse makes it so that living conditions are unbearable for the other (like abuse), the offending spouse (abuser) has effectively abandoned the home; the offended (abused) spouse can leave without it being considered abandoning their possessions or possession of the house.
I hope that makes sense. I’m a little rusty on my legal-ese.
I would check to see if there are any such laws where you live.
Wow this is spot on with my wife. If I didn’t have a daughter and step son who needed me I would be out of here so fast. I do love her but the relationship is very abusive. She now told me about something she supposedly kept from me for a year and a half only to spring it on to me when she was in the negative side of everything is my fault. It has almost ruined our family trip that we are on.
I probably answered yes to most of these questions, all but one or two to be more specific, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that like me, did most of you guys get into relationships with attractive women? or women who became more attractive post high school. It could jsut be my situation but I’m just trying to get a grasp on the sitation. everyday it’s like I fall in and out of love, spending hours thinking about wheather I should jsut leave for my own sanity, but then when i leave it will be my fault and her family will think i’m the asshole who left her high and dry, when in reality I do everything for her, worship the ground she walks on. The person who loves the most controls the least in my opinion, i’m trying not to be bitter about anything, it just sucks…..
Hi Pete! YES! I beleive you’re right about attractive wives and theories for that are endless. The first couple years I ignored extremely irractic behavior and my church condoned it as just female emotionalism (soft bigotry). By the time I had kids I was in deep and going crazy, literally. Then a friend recognized her behavior (he was a marriage counselor) and told me that if she’s as dangerous as he thinks, leaving her would leave my kids in harms way because of California family courts. I honestly thought it was just my fault and that he was srong. That is how crazy these sadists can make you feel or more accurately, that is how crazy you choose to feel with their full approval and encouragement.
Anyway, I recommend, no matter what you decide, document, document and document some more. Find someone outside your family and most friends who won’t tell anyone what you’re going through so your support won’t get back to her. The more you talk about this crap you’re in, the stronger you will get and more importantly, you’ll get your balance back. These sadists depend on the fact that you’re isolated and off balance. Exposure, to them, is like sun light to bacteria. They are terrified of one thing and one thing only, exposure. Documentation is exposure and talking with someone is corroboration and balance.
Stay safe, guard your kids and get balance. Good luck brother!
Interesting question, Peter. My ex-NPD GF was extremely attractive and knew it. She would always tell me how she “deserved to be treated”, and what I could never quite figure out was that I treated her great, but it was never enough. On an interesting note, the week before we finally broke up (12 days NC and counting!) I told her “you look beautiful”…she looked at me and said, “what do you expect me to say to that?” I said, “thank you, I suppose,” and her response was, “if a woman says thank you to that then she doesn’t really believe she is beautiful.” It was then I realized that she never said thank you when I complimented her, ever. What a peculiar thing to say, I thought. Glad to be out, though it’s not easy, it’s getting better.
The putting on a pedal stuff really shook me. I get this all the time with my girlfriend. We live together. One day she will tell me she is so blessed to have me in her life, that I mean everything to her. And the next day she will tell me that she hates me, that I am a horrible person, a complete scumbag. She has packed her things 8 or 9 times in the last three years and moved out for a few weeks, even living in her car at times or going to stay at a woman’s victim shelter. When she leaves she tells me to never contact her again (even to apologize!) and that we are completely done. She also will say just ANYTHING she can to hurt. One time she even told me that her ex-husband (whom she hates) was “right about me” and that she agrees with him that I am a loser.
I have almost started to believe that I am a terrible person as she says in her rages. Frankly, I have never in my life seen someone become so rage filled, angry and hateful. I seem to go from being someone she loves to then being her worst enemy.
She left again a few days ago. The worst thing is this: while I don’t really miss her, I feel scared and confused. I am afraid of losing her and that is an embarrassing thing to admit. I am not sure why I feel this way. A part of me wonders if I will be ok without her, or I find myself hoping she will return. I know that that is pathetic. But it is true. Anyhow, I am in the middle of it now.
Lose her. Change your locks and don’t let her back in. If she hangs around insisting that you let her in, get the police involved.
That’s what I did, and my life is so much better now. Living with an abuser is pure hell. Now is you chance; don’t put up with it any more.
17/19. The odd thing is that almost 75% of those answers came after our child was born…I “thought” all these trait’s were PPD (Postpartum Depression). I survived 4 year’s of Emotional,Physical and Sexual abuse…I stayed because I tried to shield my daughter from the abuse I knew would be placed on her if I couldn’t stand as a shield…I lasted only 5 year’s before the abuse went personal and went into betrayal…But finally she kicked me out to be with a man she had an affair with, and I was free, she had a new target that wasn’t my daughter.
I have a question about all of this…how many other men out there stayed and allowed themselves to be abused based off “Honor”…and why do we do this to ourselves?
I have a girlfriend just like this. We’ve been together for four years and I can’t take it anymore. I want to get out, however I dont know how because i love her to death on her good days ( quite the opposite on bad days) and when ever we get in fights I’m threated that she will kill or hurt herself. I can’t handle knowing her life is in my hands and that I’d be responsible for her death. We’re about to go off to different colleges and I fear that she might follow through one of these times and kill herself. She cant be alone and I think she has father issues. I need serious help. How do I get out of this one with her still living and me not going insane from all of this? I really need help.
Woah. I got shivers just reading your post. I can relate to almost every single thing you just said. I’ve known my girl for years now. Sometimes she’s the sweetest, most loving person. That’s when things are going well. But when I do something to trigger a negative emotion, things just fall apart in seconds. Somehow I never see her as a cruel person. She’s just extremely difficult to deal with. Emotional, highly-sensitive, paranoid, and the very mention of “break-up” sends her into a fit of tears or tantrums. On good days she’s very loving, very sweet, homely, and just a sweetheart. When she’s mad I just feel like I want OUT so bad. Have you found a solution for your problem? What did you do? I’m also always afraid that she’ll hurt herself if we break-up. We’ve been apart before, and it ended with days of blaming, crying, then pleading. Then things were great till the next big fight. I can’t stand knowing she’s sick or depressed thinking of me, but to be honest I really, really want to be free again. We took a two month break from each other last year and the freedom and independence it gave me was amazing. I want that, but I want her to be safe too. Too bad she’s not accepting the fact that we’re just not meant to be. Any suggestions? Anyone?
Question: How much of this is on a “spectrum” in that virtually all women exhibit some of these kinds of traits, and no matter who we are with, we will have to learn how to deal with these things because they “go with the territory” of women and being married. OR–do these traits truly represent a psychological disorder that is rare, and that the vast majority of women don’t exhibit. Since I’ve only been married to one (who exhibits over 10 of those original traits), I’m wondering!
I’ve been wondering the same thing. I’ve only been married to my current wife but have seen and talked to my friends who say their wives are identical in behavior. I’m wondering too!
I answered yes to every one of the questions… I’m havin an argument over the phone via text right now as we speak and I have no idea why.
So drop the rope. There’s no law that says you have to reply to her texts.
it gets worse if its a second marriage. She blames me for loving my kids from my first marriage more than her. When they visit, if i spend too much time with them she says shes neglected. Yet she wont hang out with us because one of my kids can be difficult.
So I answered yes to enough to be concerned, but the problem is that my wife has had medical problems that have affected her hormone levels for years. So there has always been a treatment to throw the blame on and she admits that she can’t control it and that she wants to do something about it…my fear is that the way she is when she is on the hormone treatment (because her body doesn’t produce enough estrogen to function) is the way that she will be if she actually does eventually get her system working…if it’s not and I leave now then i never gave it a chance to work…?
HK, in my experience its always SOMETHING. PMS, hormones, thyroid, menopause, etc. These women have excuses down to a science. Crazy is crazy.
I need help/advice please. i am trying to make the best of the situation. my girlfriend is 4 1/2 months pregnant, we dated for 2 months, broke up cuz of similar arguements, then she told me she was pregnant. so i stepped back in to help and hopefully form a family. and i know things can be emotional during pregnancy with hormones going in every direction, i understand that. but before she was pregnant, things werent much different. arguements about little things turn into child like tantrums to the point where she gets furious, starts yelling, swearing/calling me names (f* bombs), and blames me for her reacting the way she is. she doesnt acknowledge that we’re in public and people are staring. when i want to take a breather and go for a walk, just to pause the argument, to prevent things getting worse, it gets worse when i try to do that. it gets to a point where i get shakey listening her yell this way at me cuz she wont let me leave the car or room. i just usually sit there and try to absorb as much as i can to prevent things getting worse, but it sometimes does get worse. she gets in my face, curses at me, asks me to pack my stuff and leave, and when i try to do so, she rips my stuff/clothes out of my hands and pushes me until i’m out of the house. i really only want whats best for my child, thats why i’ve been trying to endure this madness. i care about her, but every time this happens makes me lose interest in just about everything in my life because it keeps happening. i’m really afraid that she will take control over our child and try to prevent me from seeing my lil boy. dont know what to do… i’m starting to feel like i’m going crazy
Best advice is to get out of that relationship. Raising a child with this girl is going to be hell either way but, at least you won’t be getting abused. You can still be responsible to the child without being a relationship with someone who you suspect to have a personality disorder.
Also, read the past articles on this site about co-parenting with a BPD/NPD.
AND… Be sure to get a paternity test when the baby is born. If possible to it without the mother knowing to avoid more conflict. If its not you child then you’re in the clear.
I answered yes to about 85%…its good to know im not alone,i have kids and its sooo hard to leave
DAM….i answered yes to almost all of them (i can’t even talk to my sister without her saying that MY OWN sister has a thing for me)
I answered yes to 15 of the above. I try and do everything for my wife, buy her clothes, take her out, rub her feet, e.t.c. but still she calls me selfish. whenever she doesnt have her way she threatens me by saying she is moving back to her moms house. she yells at me all the time and when i retaliate by yelling too she tells people im rude to her. And worst of all she honestly believes she is right when everyone else can see that she is the one abusing me. She goes to church and sings hymns everytime in the house and pretends like im a demon that the devil sent to taunt her and test her faith. im starting to feel like im the one who needs Jesus now coz of the way she treats. Before we got married she used to tell me that she wouldnt have sex with me unless we got married so its one of the reasons why i did it. And now that we are married whe always has an excuse why not to have it! the worse part is that she is 6 months pregnant and despite everything i love her with everything in me. but its no use loving someone who doesnt feel the same way about you. so despite the fact that im not divorcing her, im gonna try to focus all my love on my daughter. I hope this love i have for my wife can fade soon…
I was married to one of these crazy women. I’m much better off now with my new partner. She is sane, rational, and supportive, not to mention absolutely beautiful. Beware out there men – these types of women DO exist and they are scary!!!
Good grief I am so screwed. Been married to this woman for 12 years. Three kids. I still love her very much. I can answer Yes to so many of these. She goes out and parties almost every other night and I add an old friend from high school (woman) to my facebook and she accuses me of doing something. I only added her cause her daughters used to be in the same dance school as mine, and they moved, and I wanted to see how they were doing. My wife has even met her and loved watching her kids dance. Now all of a sudden I get accused of adding an old girlfriend. She never was my girlfriend and she is happily married now. F__k me I am the last person that would ever cheat. I have never cheated on her or even thought of cheating. And here is the funny stuff, she had a “man” friend that she hid behind my back a couple of years ago. Wanna know how I found out…my 13yr old son caught her talking to him while I was out of town working. He was in tears telling me. She is insane jealous, but she gets to party every night and I dont have to worry cause she is a “good girl”. Never mind the stress this puts on me, but my kids pick up on it too. I dont know what to do. I still love her very much. I dont want to divorce. She often tells me she is ready to divorce, but cant cause she doesnt have any money. I am so overloaded in debt for this woman, about half my salary goes to unsecured debt. She is a shopaholic. She buys a new purse and then yells at me for not having enough money for food. I tell her to eat her purse. That doenst help. Last night I got sick of her claiming I was doing something with my facebook old friend, and I got pissed and started walking home from the resturant. She picked me up halfway home and when we got in the driveway, I told her she needs to get serious about this marriage or she can pack her bags. All she heard was the “pack her bags” part so now I am in the doghouse for kicking her out of the house. Wedding ring is off her finger, I still have mine on. All I want is for her to stop claiming I am a liar. I have never lied to her ever. She knows she is a psycho. She knows she has a problem. I dont want a divorce, I still really deeply love her. I also know she loves me. She just has a terrible issue with trust. Her father was a looser and mom pretty much is too. She had a rough childhood, mine was great. I just want her to be sane. Oh, and never mind the unreasonable arguments she gets into with my son. He is a really good kid (kinda lazy but what teenager isnt), and she rides him. When they have a big blowup I have to go to his room and smooth things over with him. I make excuses for her and give him tips on how to “get along” with her. Just keep repeating “yes mam”. Anyway…Thanks for letting me share. Oh yea, after I got home from halfway walking home, I deleted my facebook. Didnt really need it anyway, I only joined so I could video chat with her while I was travelling. Anyway, thanks for listening (reading). Somehow this helped me a little bit.
All I can say is protect your kid.
I have been dealing with this for 14 years. We just finished a year in “couples” therapy which has cost of thousands of dollars we did not have. Our finances are in ruin. We have two kids, 12 and 14 years old. That is the only thing that keeps me in this nightmare. One of the things in reading all these posts is what happenes to them when I finally reach the breaking point? If I leave they will be forced to deal with her on a daily basis without me there to run interferance. Additionally, we do not have enough money to support two households. We are barely able to maintian one. I feel like I am trapped. When things are going OK which is more and more infrequent, I think…”If I can only holdout a few more years maybe the impact on my kids will not be as severe. I honestly do not know what to do…
Only a few… at first we had a great sex life (always was great)…. but within a few months she didn’t want me coming over as much then not anymore, complained I never offered to take her anywhere (but then wouldn’t have to time to) or offer to help her around the house (but then she would say I’m in the the way and don’t need help), stop calling her because it drove her crazy and bugged her (I would call or msg her saying I love her everyday), would freak out if I called her for directions to a new place to meet I never been before….
I’m like “WTF!!!” at first she would always want to talk things out if she was upset now nothing. I had to end the relationship she is just too F’d up for me.
i need advice please i said yes to all of these questions im 19 and my girlfriend is 23 i have been with my girlfriend for 4 years already and i cant take anymore… i made the mistake of moving in with her and her mom when i was 15 yeah i know stupid! my life has been hell since i met her she slept with my cousin and admitted to making out with a bunch of random guys when we were living together she controlls every move i make she even made me stop going to school… i did everything i could to avoid fights with her because she went CRAZY! after a year i decided i didnt care if she went crazy i was going to leave anyways, then threatens she will kill herself so i am forced to stay, i actually tried to leave twice once she took like 7 pills and ended up in the emergency room the next time she took 12 ambiens and crashed her car and ended up in the hospital again! i cant take this anymore she is always mad at me for the dumbest things i cant even go to school because she thinks im cheating on her i never see my family i lost all my friends and i mean all my friends!! she always would tell me to go out hang out with my friends and family and be pissed when i got home she threw a giant rock that she picked up with both hands because i wanted to go to school once.. the only reason im able to write this is because shes hanging out with my cousin right now yes the one she slept with… i cant say anything tho because it will lead into a fight wich will lead into her trying to overdose i need a way out without her hurting herslef.. she doesnt even talk to her mom or brother anymore because she hates everyone.. i am not allowed to do anything except work and whenever i say i want to do somrthing she flips out and i end up having to apologize.. i already ruined my credit by getting a house i couldnt afford so now im stuck in a studio! please i would appreciate any advice or at least someone to talk to about this..
I’ve answered yes two all. she has me falling out of love. ive been with her for 7 months and the first month was the best until all of this happened. ik im just 18 and young but i feel trapped in a box.
In April we went to the hospital because of her health problems, and when she wakes up she starts punching doctors and nurses and hitting her head on the wall, which gave her a himatoma. and from then on, all she has been doing is putting me down, making me feel worthless. her mother warned me about her and i ignored her cuz her mom is crazy too. is leaving her a good idea?
she also says that should would kill herself if i ever break up with her.
Tell her you are done, finished, gone. When she then makes the threat & she will,call the police & tell them she is suicidal. They will be forced to admit her to the mental hospital. 99.9999999% of the time it is an empty threat made solely to keep you trapped. Call her on it. The stay in the mental hospital may just fix it. Just make sure you are nowhere near when she is released. If she tracks you down call the police again. Rinse & repeat 🙂
thank you very much and i did what you said and well i feel so free. she still has her stuff in my house but the doctors say that she will be getting her stuff accompanied but 3 police office and suggests that im out of the house when she is taking her stuff and that i MUST get a restaining order. i feel so relieved thanx Ron!!!!
I answered yes to 9 of them. In fact, our one-year anniversary is in less than two months but about a month ago she left to spend 6-weeks visiting friends and family in New York (I’m in L.A.)
It was this time away from her that allowed me to see what a lunatic she is; the world was suddenly back to normal, peaceful, without her around. I actually tried to dump her twice last spring but she is a master manipulator. However, this time I’m armed to the teeth with information from sites like this one so that when she gets back she won’t be able to turn the tables on me again…thank you for that.
ugh 14 of those fit. She’s a rageaholic. It’s so weird, I’ve lived my whole life being told how abusive, violent, and just tyrannical men can be and as a result many boys are taught to control their temper. Hell if anything we learned that if we don’t hold ourselves in check we’ll get our asses beat. So how many girls just missed angermanagement 101 as kids?
Regarding my wife, I answered yes to 14 of the 19 bullets. Then I got to the bottom where it said “if you answered yes to more than 2 or 3…” I was shocked.
She also has a history of failed relationships before me (including one failed marriage).
There’s an old saying —
“Women marry men expecting them to change and they don’t.
Men marry women expecting them not to change and they do.”
From most of the comments I’ve read I would say that’s 100% true.
Women can be so fake.
My wife also shows signs of Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (Passive-Aggressive), although I’m no expert in the variety of disorders in question. All I know is that, since we have a child, I’m sticking it out for our kid’s sake. I’m trying to be a good enough dad to sufficiently counter the insanities my wife brings into it all.
Lastly, I still love my wife (not sure why) but she doesn’t leave me much hope of a happily married future.
Consider this. Sticking it out for the child’s sake may not actually be in the child’s best interest. To have to endure all of the conflict and drama between mommy and daddy may do more harm than ending the relationship. I’m no child psychologist but it seems to me there is a lot of potential for collateral damage here.
I saw that too —its a Mark Twain quote,I think—had me laughing at the co-parenting class required before divorce.
Luis Joel Pacheco says
No wonder why this piece has for so many comments, I would’ve never thought of finding a site dedicated, to men needs, specifically, the psychic ones, I’ve come to find myself, or actually to realize, or lose the “blindfold” so to speak, that I am in an abussive relationship, I’ve just been married for 2 months and I already feel, like choking to death every single day, she’s been diagnoses with BPD, and still she won’t take help from anyone, even less take any medications, and just so you all know, she and I are doctor, both of us, specialists, and in spite of it, my household, seems to be pretty close to osculantism, anyway, I’m in a point where I don’t know what’s going to happen to us, either way it is really nice and reassuring to know that there are sites, that supports us men, and provide this wonderful and so helpful information.
Thank you dearly all the way from Mèxico…
Yes, I am getting married in about a month, and she is just out of control. She gets very angry at little things, blaming me for everything. For example, we have an appointment at 8 am with our wedding dj, and I told her we need to leave by 815, I get up at 830, and she is still getting ready, I told her we wont make it on time, and she flips out on me , even though she has a clock in front of her, and says she is not marrying me and storms out of the apt in her car, and drives off. I even told her, what if I was awake at 730, would you have been ready at 815? The clock is in front of your face. But, no its my fault, and know I screw everything up. Just so sick of her blaming me for everything that she screws up.
I meant apt at 9 am and need to leave by 815
Did you read the post on this site: Urgent Group Intervention Needed: Should this Man Marry his Abusive and Controlling Fiancee Next Week? (June 30, 2011) …
Might be interesting reading!
And you are really going to marry this woman? Are you really wanting to live this life? It only gets worse once you tie the knot. Once you say “I do” her response is “Never again you don’t unless you do it my way and only then if i feel like letting you”
Ditto on that, pal. Everyone told me I would wind up in the same place as her ex-husband, and that’s EXACTLY where I am today. The only thing more crazy than a woman like that is the guy that will marry her KNOWING what he is in for.
Hi Dr T…It’s Stefano. I haven’t been by for a while but just dropped by and I can see things are just how they always were with crazy women making life incredibly hard. I was the guy who ended up being punched and abused by my ex partner and then she reported me after I had to restrain her. Yes i was arrested but my lawyer managed to show through my evidence just how unstable she was and the Police dropped their case!
Anyway I want to thank you for all the advice you gave back then, and everything that you said would happen and every trick you said she would play came true! And the really, really sad fact is that if it wasn’t for you and the guys on here she would have sucked me back into hell as during my low times I very nearly fell for her charms again! But your words and all the evidence on here made me believe I was simply wasting my time and my life would be a disaster again.
As it is I am happy, youngish and single and don’t have to tread on egg shells around her in my home any longer.
I know it hard guys to get out and in my case I really did run the gauntlet of a rage like you would not believe…but it can be done.
Oh and yes I did answer yes to most of the points in this article but then again I knew she was a nut!
I’m relieved you were able to get the charges dropped and got away from your toxic ex for once and for all. That is very good news.
Onwards and upwards! Dr T
I think that this forum is extremely helpful.
Thank you so much Dr. T.
I know that I have to leave her, and it breaks my heart. But nothing I have tried can get through that shell of hers. She is just so full of fear and anger. That post about the reactions to accountability and criticism hurt to read, it’s very accurate.
At any rate, I just wanted to say thank you.
My Ex: “You always wanted to provoke me!”
Me: “I never wanted to provoke you.. I just… wanted to get through to you!”
My Ex: “Why would you even want to get through to me?”
– I was speechless!
Geeze…I answered “yes” to twelve of these questions. Now I’m REALLY depressed.
I just broke up with my girlfriend. Right now i’m thanking God that I did. Reading these comments and Quiz has given me the resolution I need to realise that shouldn’t put up with any girl that fails this quiz.
Im in University and I started dating my ex towards the end of the spring semester. At the start she was fun and exciting. When we first started dating we were totally into each other; we basically hung out everyday. It was awesome, she had a car too 😀 and everyday when we hung out I could feel this real connection and energy between us.
I thought things were turning out into something great until she exposed herself as a definite mega bitch or possibly a Sucubus. Everytime we met over the last four months she was becoming someone else. She checks off the majority of the quiz questions now and it’s basically like living with the devil.
She was emotionally abusing me 75% of the time and then she would change back into the the fun and exciting girl again at a moments notice, just manipulating my feelings enough so that I would stick around and put up with all her bullshit.
So as of today I am offically single again.
Thanks so much Dr. Tara, and everone who has shared their stories. Im thanking my lucky stars that I can get out now before she ruins my life or eats my soul.
Well, twelve of the questions match my wife to the T. I have been married a year and a half, We dated for a year and a half, the hellcat started to show about two months after we got married, she was pregnant with a honeymoon baby, and I dismissed the shit as hormonal. I was warned about her, and was told to run like hell. Even her ex told me that. I thought he was just jealous. He was always talked about as an abuser, I believed her. Then one day she accused me of being like him!!! And then it all started to click. Now we have a baby together, and she has threatened to call the cops twice, I said ok and called them first. Some days are better than others, but as a whole it is getting worse. Im willing to spend the money to fight her in court, and she knows it. And that keeps her at bay, for now. The truth is we could go on like this for years… But how long till your soul starts to die? Are the kids ( step and mine ) really better served by staying together? Or is that just the crap the clergy tell you? Why was I so willing to over look the problems before? Is it best to stay, till it gets worse?
That’s part of “the game”: I too was being told all those stories of how aweful her last boyfriend was in the first weeks of the relationship. She created a “foly a deux” where it would be us (me being “the good guy”) against him on an abstract level. Mind you, we came together only two weeks after she broke up with him, so there was still some stuff to settle.
And then, about 2,5 years later? She insults me, speaks to me in a tone I’ve never heard before from her (but would get so accustomed to in the later years), and when I called her out on it, she said “that’s what “ex-boyfriend” said to me once, too! You two should get together” or sth along the lines. Making me feel guilty and ashamed of behaving like her Ex, who be both decided upon was an ass during our honeym… brainwashing-phase…
I answered yes to most of the questions. My issue is that I have stayed just for the great sex. But the whole thing is making me sick. I can not even see my daughters.
John T says
Broke up with my now ex after 7 years. I voluntarily enrolled in an anger management class because she was telling anybody that would listen to her that I have been abusing her. Fact is, she would attack me verbally and after having enough of it I would retaliate. My counselor refuses to assign blame and tells me I need to work on not getting angry about being attacked. My self esteem is too high to lie down and allow her to walk all over me. What I really want to know is: is there such a thing as a co-abusive relationship? Seems to me that “abuse” is a one way street. You have an abuser and a victim. If both parties are engaging in abusive behavior, it is not abuse, it is a fight. All fighting is abusive by nature, but it is not abuse. I really need to get this sorted out for myself before I can commit to believing what this counselor is trying to sell me. Seems like he is setting me up to be a victim.
Hi John T,
The majority of relationships in which there’s violence are bi-directional and, according to research, the majority of violence in bi-directionally abusive relationships is initiated by women.
When you write that you retaliate to your partner’s verbal abuse, what do you mean? Do you say nasty things back or do you hit her? It’s natural to want to defend yourself, but please don’t sink down to your partner’s level.
Becoming angry when attacked is a natural response. If you anger is managed respectfully and you use it draw healthy boundaries, it shouldn’t be a problem. From what you’ve written, your wife seems to be in need of treatment for the verbal abuse she initiates Why isn’t your wife getting treatment to stop attacking you? You have every right to feel angry for being verbally attacked, however, and I don’t know how you respond to your wife, you can become angry without also becoming abusive. That may be what your wife wants — to provoke you into anger and becoming abusive so she can portray herself as the victim.
I answered yes to 10 of them. It’s funny just now my kids where playing wit play dough on the carpet so I yelled at the kids because it was every where. Now she’s mad because she believes the carpet doesn’t need to be clean because we have kids. It seems like she just wants to find reasons to get mad at me.
If you’d just ignored the situation, she’d likely have been mad at you for letting them mess up the carpet.
Okay, this may be a little different. We met at work, late one night chatting in the office she burst into tears and told me how her ex of 14 years had broken up with her but given no reason and she thought it was because of a mental break down due to work pressure as he was a civil engineer on a big project. I had to move cities and she offered me a place to stay while I got things together. I realized immediately that she had no money, so bought her some expensive appliances in lieu of rent. I come from a single parent family and have always been looking out for my mom and younger sibling and as such have a bit of a saviour complex. She called me her knight on a horse. When I moved she drove with me. I thought she’d love having her space back, but she started to text and email me several times a day. Then she ended up moving to the same city and we both work for the same company. She asked me to consider moving in with her. Thank God I said no. Not sure why either, but I refused to be friends with her on Facebook or to get involved with her physically. I made a new circle of friends who all welcomed her. She noticed every single thing about me and stupidly it went straight to my ego. I am a writer too and she told me she has a thing for writers. She said she found me fun and entertaining and I let her move in with me. I started noticing she needed to treat me like a child – she is 5 years older than me – and had a sexual hold on me second to none. She knows she is a looker and uses it to effect. Then after dinner each night with a bit of wine the abuse started. She’d pick something I’d done wrong and browbeat me into an apology. She’d also get really upset about her past break ups and I would do my commitment phobic best to comfort her. At work, my colleagues noticed how she talked down to me even though we’re in similar positions. When I finally stood up to her at first she was devastated, then there was hell to pay. Repeat. Then she’s onto me about how I can’t control my temper and twists me in clever word play. Her criticism became more and more constant. When I told her I’d had enough, she broke things off. Her anger was completely out of proportion. One of my friends called it really early and said I’d had a lucky escape. Like a fool though I wrote her a letter using all my writerly skill and bought her flowers and food when she was sick. She resumes things, but this was followed by a blow up at work, where she threatened to go to my boss over my head. We work in a tough business and there’s always conflict, but she made it personal and wore me out with pointing out my faults. When I challenged her directly she got coy and accused me of being defensive. She picked a major fight with me over nothing, then the next morning couldn’t look me in the eye. We haven’t spoken in three weeks except about work issues and when I see her my only emotion is fear. I refuse to talk to her, but I think I’m addicted to her and it’s killing me. She climbed inside me and took me to pieces.
Ya…..but you know what? You can clearly see what is going on here, and that is your advantage in this crazy game. You know what you need to do. You have to fight that emotional tug that leashes you to this despair, because you know as well as the rest of us on this blog that it will be to your detriment if you don’t. You have to think with your head and not your heart. YOU MUST override your emotions. It’s more complicated than just a personal relationship for you….your job and your livelihood is at stake here also. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but there are protestors around the country arguing that they are the 99%. If you are not familiar with this news, please Google it and educate yourself. My point is…you have a job, and you need to do what is necessary to hold on to it and get your emotional baggage and this crazy drama out of your work. YOU MUST be rational about this situation. The way things are with her right now at work are perfect. You haven’t spoken in three weeks except about work issues and you refuse to talk to her. I suggest you keep doing that. You have to be VERY CAREFUL at work in how you deal with her. DOCUMENT what transpires between the two of you, keep a diary to protect yourself just in case. For all you know, she could be plotting to get you fired, and this is not paranoia, this is reality. These types of abusive women are like undercover snipers. Read the posts from other men and the articles on this site for confirmation on this if you need to. Hey, if it were me I’d protect myself in any way possible, not only because she may be a back stabbing saboteur, but also because the job market is for shit. Why wouldn’t you want to stay one step ahead of her if you can. If she doesn’t turn out to be like that, then what do you have to lose. You can trash all this documentation years from now once you have no contact with her. You have the knowledge here if you are willing to read it….(read all these articles in this blog by scrolling up and clicking on Index). Knowlege is power. Dr. T advises in her article Sept. 29, 2011 “How to handle the covert ones” and she suggests (BIFF = Brief, Informative, Firm and Friendly) This is the demeanor you need to have with her. Be brief, don’t tell her anything she doesn’t need to know….inform her if you need to about relevant work matters that are required..be firm when necessary, don’t allow her to steam roll you at work…and try to be friendly so that you are not pigeon holed as being rude. You can’t trust her, bottom line…so be proactive and take action by protecting yourself. If you can, transfer to another unit or seek work elsewhere. I know this seems like a step back or giving in to her behavior….but you must realize that you are most likely dealing with craziness and you must get out if possible to protect yourself.
Thanks, @Irishgirl. Good advice. I am SO careful to cover my backside. Like many of us on this blog, my head is still reeling from the transformation in a matter of months from the sweet, sexy girl that shared my bed to the Medusa I have to shield my job from daily. It’s left me wishing I’d never met her and wondering why on earth she went after me with such passion and avid seduction in the first place. It’s made me seriously think of staying single for a while. At least while I put myself back together again. I really wish I could track down her exes (all three of them, and thanks to long nights in tears I know them all by name) and ask if there’s was the same experience as mine and if they stayed just for the sex or the hope that she might change.
Your welcome Sam. Keep on covering your backside, and don’t be alone with her at work if you can..make sure you have someone there as a witness. To answer your question about why she went after you with such seduction in the first place, that can probably be found in this article:
Sounds like you were the target of ‘The Love Bomb’. The more you read about all of this the more you will be able to understand what happened. In a way, it is healing to read these articles and the posts from other people. As far as whether or not her ex’s had the same experience, most likely they did. Alot of guys stay hoping she will change, but the abusive ones don’t change..not without serious professional help. Forget about tracking them down…move on from her and leave it all behind. Here’s an article to read as to what Dr. T suggests you do after a breakup with one of these women:
@Irishgirl, have you been through this before? Man, it feels like the loneliest place in the world. I found out this weekend she’s starting to turn my friends against me. She’s going out of her way to court my closest friends (she doesn’t really have any of her own, she made friends with my friends) who are also colleagues and she’s so good at making people believe her lies. I shudder to think what she’s telling them, but it’s obviously working. I remember some of the things she told me about other people and how goddamn gullible I was in believing them. At least one friend who’s definitely on my side commented on how drastic the switch is between how much she seemed to love me and be in love with me (even deliberate public displays of affection in the office, leaving nobody in uncertain terms how much she was into me) and now hatred as if I’m the devil incarnate. I opened my heart, my bed, my home to her. Bailed her out several times financially. She introduced me to her family and they seemed to think the world of me. What will stop her? Having my balls in a glass vial above her bed? A knife through my heart? I’m seeing your point about not being alone with her more and more. I had no choice in a meeting yesterday, and suddenly realised that I’m actually a hell of a lot more intelligent, creative and charming than she is (she’s brought me to this low level of having a high school contest). And I think like all bullies that she’s afraid of me on some level.
And that she’s taken aback that I’m not running to her door with my usual gift and apology. All I want to say is: “let me go, don’t hate me”. But losing me doesn’t seem to be enough.
In my 30 years on this planet, I’ve never met anyone so intent on my destruction. This must be insanity. I can’t rationalize it any other way. I also had a long talk last night to a psychologist friend. Dr T, would love to know if you concur, but she’s so definitely BPD.
well, I have quite a story…I have written a few things here before when I was in the middle of it…knew the truth and didn’t act…been in a relationship with a woman for last four years…she moved in with me and it began going south…she had lost her kids in a custody battle and blamed it on dirty tricks from ex ect…said she had never been depressed…well, the last three years of living together have been hell…she has gotten worse and worse and blames every single thing on me…I started feeling guilty constantly…knowing intellectually it was BS but feeling otherwise emotionally…just not there for myself…and her outbursts made me feel like I was living in a dark room, unable to see and that someone was swinging a bat…just waiting to get hit but not knowing when….her emotions were so rapidily changing that I stopped feeling good when it went ok, as I knew it was only temporary and meaningless…she tried to commit suicide last xmas…walked out into the vermont winter and threw herself in the lake to drown herself…I called 9/11 and she spent two weeks in the nuthouse…got out and promptly threw her meds away…and we went on…
I realized that she was certainly bi-polar…and began living in fear of her moods…relieved like a small dog if she came home in a good mood…she gained more weight and I soon saw that I had an angry, bi polar beast on my hands…she ran around 300…I had no idea why I was sticking with her…I would not leave a girl for weight issues…but she became flat out mean and vicious…would say anything in a fight and the idea of limits and lines that you do not cross became meaningless for her…I stopped fucking her three years ago…and had no desire to do so any longer…yet I stayed with her…afriad she might kill herself if I called it a day and too weak to leave myself…afraid of the future and stangely needy for her abuse…
without going into everything, it came to a head a month ago…during a fight she called the police and made false allegations of physical abuse…told them I had been beating her for three years…they needed no proof at all and even seemed to know her story was bs but the system is built this way they said…I spent the night in jail…was dragged into court in leg irons the next morning and released…while in jail she filed a protection order against me and I could not return to my own home…I owned it and her name was not even on a bill…th ejudge told me abuse orders trump property law…imagine that…so I couch surfed for three weeks until I was told she had thankfully vacated the house…so I moved back in…
I still have to face the domestic abuse charge and my lawyer believes it will be dismissed…if not, I will have a misdemeanor on my record as I am told I must plea of could go to jail if we go to jury as they get nasty if you go that way…
Even with that I must tell you…having her outta my life for the last month has been wonderful…no more mood surfing…no more guilt…no more HER…to put it simply…and if I do have to plea, it seems like a small price to have my life back and that psycho beast gone…
Well check yes for about 90% of these. It makes it so much worse with kids in the mix. Im about to do my second tour in afghanistan and at least 5 or six different times ive been told ” just leave already i seriously hope you get killed over there so i dont have to deal with you” then minutes later wants to talk or cuddle and gets pissed that i want nothing to do with her. These past two years have been hell and i doubt itll last much longer when i get back. for those already divorced, is it more difficult raising your child now or easier? my biggest concern is if my wife gets custody, and im sure she will considering im military and leave alot, is that my daughter will be brought up to hate me and be as disrepectful to others as her mom is. Any ideas or suggestions?
What a cruel and terrible thing to say. You are risking your life every day to feed your family and fight for your country.You should never hear those words. Keep reading this site my friend, there is alot of useful info in these articles and from the posts of others. It wouldn’t be easier raising your child divorced but it would definitely be healthier.
After reading this I answered yes to almost all of the questions. I even moved away from Georgia My home to bring her to Maine Her comfort area and I never see my people anymore. I have been married 27 years and have constantly been walking on land mines I don’t have a clue what or why she will explode (“calling me the f-word etc..) then not 20 minutes later she gets lovey until the next mine. This morning She ripped me because she wanted me to back in a parking space and i just drove in head first. Why would it matter to the passenger what direction I park in. She has two sets of rules on for her and one for me and they both change to suit her whim.
I am getting depressed, taking stress meds and never having sex unless it is 100% her way which is not fun anymore.
At my whips end and looking for a cliff to jump from.
Travis Ready says
as far as I can see, i can answer yes to most of these.. some of these are not so obvious though.. for example.. maybe not the crazy lipstick shade and smearing on the face but in other ways yes. what i don’t understand is this: I get in heated arguments with “the wife” b/c she feels some injustice and then proceeds to verbally abuse me and unless I raise my voice and stop the “runaway train” I can’t get her to shut-up and speak rationally. Once I do that though, I’m the horrible bastard who cant take criticism and lose my temper. Anyone have similar history?
Your story is my story…exactly…These women are sadists who have an insatiable appetite for your emotional pain. I find smiling like Jack Nicholson in “The Shining” usually ends the conversation.
“Heeeeeeeeere’s Johnny!” Do it while sharpening a big axe. Then go out and chop some firewood to vent your frustration.
LOL! Then HIDE the freaking axe.
Just hide period.
Fellas, I can’t comment on those who married or had kids with their monster, but life post-break up gets better. At first I spent weeks barely functioning and weekends in my dark bedoom reading reams about these BPD’s (yes, I’m also wary of amateur diagnosis, but she seems to have all the symptoms listed above, minus the lipstick), wondering what the hell I could have done to save her and save the relationship. I remember her asking me to set “Rules of Engagement” which made me feel guilty about not setting solid boundaries and being more firm and consistent as one would be with a child. But I never imagined a woman 5 years older than me to be a child. Hindsight is indeed 50/50. She asked me to be straight with her and made me pay when I wasn’t. But then she was never straight with me and broke all the rules she made for me. I don’t know if she was abused or neglected as a child, as most BPD’s seem to be, but I can remember at the beginning hearing her sob stories of her life and her exes and swearing to myself that I would never hurt her. Now I look back on the carnage she made of my life and my emotions. It is like somebody else said, a string of barbed wire being torn out of your chest, slowly removing it one hook at a time. She told me I lived a small life, so why was she the one parasitically living off me? Making friends with my friends etc. And now she’s turning some of my friends against me. So this is my answer – living well is the best revenge. I’m channeling all the energy she sucked out of me into myself and living my own life. Like a newly released prisoner, I’m savouring every second of life and making new friends that she can’t reach. You start small, and maybe a bit petty – burning her letters, sending back her stuff and writing off all the stuff you know you’re not going to be getting back from her, eating pizza at all the places she wouldn’t go with you because she hated pizza, wiping your toothpaste mouth on handtowels – you get my drift.
Then, as you disengage hook by hook, you start to realize the good and worth in yourself and how all the criticism was merely her projected insecurity. You start re-finding your own voice, your own style (she analyzed my wardrobe – granted, she’s very stylish, but a dictator), buying new furniture just for yourself and doing all the things you’ve wanted to do, even if you’re doing them without her, because you realise you’re doing them for yourself. The more you distract yourself, the more you grow away from her. And the less you lower yourself to playing by her rules, like getting to your friends via Facebook. Unfortunately, I work with my monster and she is rude and abrasive to me and does her best to bust my balls on a continual basis, but the more I disengage and build a new life, the less important she becomes. There’s hope and you get bad days, but honestly, you realise that there’s a big world out there, full of interesting things, new people, new experiences and, eventually a new, real partner.
Good Note! It’s encouraging to hear another brother moving on and rebuilding after these nightmare estrogen fests are over.
Ugh… I think I answered yes to every question… =(
I answered yes to nearly every one of those questions. I have been with her for 5 years and we just bought a place together and I thought that would have changed things but it hasn’t. I get accused of cheating if I am stuck in traffic, and I get timed on everything I do. If something takes a couple minutes more than usuall then she is down my neck wanting to know what I have been doin. She msgs me all day wanting to know what I am doing and then when I confront her it’s always my fault. My brother died in a car accident a few months ago and she uses that to her advantage saying that I’m just like this cause my brother died. then she says I need to get help, she controls every little thing I do and if i wanna buy something I have to justify it but it’s ok for her to blow 50 bucks on another cook book she will never use. Everyday I wish it was me in the car accident instead of my brother. at least he was enjoying his life. it’s not fair.
When you start wishing you were dead, its time to get out. I used to be that way when I was with my EX. When I come to an intersection while commuting back to and from work, I’d think about what if a car ran the light and he hit me. Then I’d be done. I really didn’t want to die, I just wanted out.
I had the same exact feeling. (Still married trying to protect my kids) I can tell you that staying in a relationship when you are going to kill yourself is obviously counter productive because you wont be around if your dead…that sounded kind of stupid now that I’m looking at it but the point is when you prefer death over being with someone it’s time to get out. The scene from Night at the Roxbury when Will Ferrell is asking his dad if it’s normal to have fantasies of having your partner die and you wish they would disappear or get kidnapped and his dad just says “Ya, that’s normal” is exactly what I went through. It gets much worse if you stay, I can tell you from experience. Good luck and the sooner you realize you’re dealing with a different species the better off you are. She is a vampire and you need to treat the situation like your life depends on it…other than that, I don’t have much of an opinion. 8)
Is it normal to not be sexually interested in your gf if all you hear is complaining about how your not effectionate enough or dont show her enough attention.
Contrary to what some women seem to think, Constant criticism and nagging is NOT an aphrodisiac. Yes, being turned off by that kind of behavior is, in my opinion, normal.