The following article is written by another CrazyBuster veteran: LiliM. Like Micksbabe and Peppy, LiliM also married a man with a high-conflict ex and alienated children.
In her first Shrink4Men article, LiliM offers suggestions on how to navigate the divorce process with a high-conflict ex when children are involved based on her and her husband’s hard won firsthand experiences:
One of the biggest issues people struggle with in dealing with a high-conflict (HCP) ex is when children are part of the equation. It’s hard enough to shed a HCP spouse or partner; when children are involved, it becomes the never-ending trickle of salt into the open wound you’re trying to heal.
As noted in a previous Shrink4Men article, the trick to neutralizing the Crazy is boundaries. For some of us, creating boundaries for ourselves is difficult enough. It becomes hellishly difficult to implement healthy boundaries when there are children to consider.
Why is it so difficult? In many cases, the answer is fear.
HCPs are predators, as Dr T and Micksbabe so aptly identified them. They know the smell of fear. If you have any, they will know it. They might not be the sharpest pencil in the box otherwise, but boy, do they know how to sniff out fear. Then they capitalize on it to the nth degree.
Once you or the HCP decide the marriage or relationship is over, you need to immediately be on your guard. At that point, regardless of what your HCP ex says, you are now the enemy in their mind. Many men are often lulled into a false sense of security by the fact that she seems to be behaving and seems to be thinking and acting rationally at the beginning of the break-up or divorce.
She is not. It’s a trap! (Think Admiral Ackbar here.)
This is when it becomes very important that you start changing the way you see your wife or partner.
She is your wife, for a little bit longer. She is also the mother of your children. That’s a powerful old saw that many high-conflict exes play to the death. My response to these tired old chestnuts is, yes, she is the mother of your children — and heaven help them because she is also the Crazy.
She is the parent who will sow deep gaping trenches into your kids if you don’t create boundaries for yourself and show the kids what a non-Crazy parent looks like. At this point, you are your kids’ best hope for normalcy.
One way to protect yourself and your kids, is to begin reading your state’s laws on custody and visitation and how these issues are decided. Read the guidelines for the state child support calculator. Then read them again. And again. You want to be familiar with the laws that will be governing your divorce and custody cases. To know what you’re facing legally gives you not only knowledge, but power.
Then begin documenting why you’re the best parent to have residential custody. This is where having read the divorce and custody statutes will come in handy. When laying out your case, do not badmouth your soon-to-be-HCP-ex.
Focus on the strengths you bring to the table as the custodial parent. This seems counter-intuitive, but the courts don’t like parents who are at each others throats. Unfortunately, it’s fathers who suffer the most when judges get mad, even when it’s the mother who is the HCP and behaving horribly. So don’t go that route.
Research parenting plans, so that you know what sort of things to ask for in your court order. My husband found that the more specific the court order became, the better off he was. This didn’t happen overnight, however. He learned this the hard way. So get out in front of that, because there are still courts who will assign visitation as “reasonable visitation to be agreed upon by both parties.”
Be specific. Who meets who for drop-off and pick-up. Where do you meet? If she’s high-conflict, I recommend the local police department. Meet in the lobby. The parent taking the child(ren) leaves first. A police station drop-off/pick-up provides witnesses and, oftentimes, cameras.
My husband went this route after his Crazy ex had her then boyfriend and father pull shotguns on his parents. The exchanges became a lot calmer after that.
Who will decide on educational issues, medical issues, who has legal custody? If it is shared, how is a decision reached? How will holidays be split between parents? Can either parent move away?
Then, you have to think about how you will handle things with your children.
It’s unlikely the Crazy will play fair with the kids. Assume she’ll begin talking poorly about you to the kids, that is, if she hasn’t already while you were still together.
She’ll probably tell them legal issues, financial issues — anything that makes you look bad. In Adult Children of Parental Alienation Syndrome: Breaking The Ties That Bind, Dr. Amy Baker interviews 40 adults who suffered from parental alienation syndrome as children. One of the things that nearly all the survivors said was that they wanted to know the target parent’s side of things. They didn’t want to hear badmouthing of their alienating parent, but they did want to hear the target parent speak up for themselves.
Talk to your children. Tell them, “Mom and I are going through some tough issues right now. You may hear some things that are not very nice, or don’t make you feel good. If you do, I am sorry. It shouldn’t be that way, but sometimes, kids hear things that they don’t really need to. If you do, I want you to know that you can come to me with anything. You can ask questions, you can talk to me about how you feel. I am always open to talking with you, no matter how hard or uncomfortable the subject is. I love you, and your mom loves you (don’t choke on that one). Nothing will ever change that. I am always here for you.”
Your kids need to be reassured that you love them and that you want them. If they’re already hearing negative things about you from your ex, even more so. Modify what you tell your kids so that it’s age appropriate.
Shock and awe.
Even when you know how crazy your Crazy is, it’s hard to believe someone could act the way they do. You don’t want to believe it. You want to think the high-conflict parent loves the children as much as you do. (Honestly, they all seem to have the same large-print handbook on how to be as horrific as possible.)
HCPs know this. On some level, they know you won’t sink to the same depths they do in your desire to get what you want and they count on it. They count on you not wanting to go against your upbringing that includes manners and not behaving badly. They know your desire to behave as a decent member of society holds you back from responding to their behavior no matter what. No one wants to be the bad guy and they count on your desire to be Mr Nice Guy.
Know that. Recognize that the Crazy will not fight fair, will not behave in a way that is socially acceptable, will use your children, will threaten you and play on your fear at every opportunity, and will sacrifice herself to “win” against you. To the Crazy, any means justify their ends.
You don’t have to stoop to their level. Instead, prepare yourself from a legal standpoint. Again, do your research and understand the laws you’ll be subject to once in the court system. Document the Crazy behavior and show how the Crazy does not support a positive relationship between your kids and yourself. Also, understand the financial implications. Get very familiar with your state’s child support guidelines. Even if you have an attorney, having this knowledge will serve you well.
Speaking of divorce attorneys . . .
Interview your attorney before you hire them. Make sure they’re well-versed in family law. Impress upon them that you’re not dealing with a normal person, but a HCP who will make everything as big an ordeal as possible.
Emphasize that you want to protect your children and yourself as much as possible from this without handing over the keys to your life to the HCP. It’s extremely important to have an attorney who understands you have a Crazy and who will fight for you and the kids. Please take your time finding an attorney and don’t be afraid to ask questions.
This probably seems like a long and involved list. When children are involved, it ups the ante for the HCP. They know they have a valuable weapon in their arsenal. And boy howdy, do they use it. Kids are insta-power for them.
Take that away. The more you educate yourself and the more you know what you’re dealing with, the less you’ll bet at the mercy of the HCP’s threats. Why? Because you’ll know and understand the laws.
You’ll know what the guidelines are. You’ll have talked to your children and will have begun the insulation they’ll need until they become adults because they have a high-conflict parent.
Remember, people can and do threaten all sorts of things that “they’re going to do to you” via the courts. Until it happens, it’s nothing more than words. Don’t let the words of the Crazy demoralize you.
While this advice doesn’t guarantee anything in court, because family court is one of the goofiest things I’ve ever seen, it will, hopefully, reduce the sense of powerlessness you may feel at the hands of your high-conflict ex.
My personal opinion is that no one truly wins anything once you take your family life to court. You can, however, make it less painful for yourself and your children by preparing beforehand. You’ll be the one who shields your children and helps the grow, fingers crossed, into healthy adults.
In Dr. Baker’s book, she profiles horrible stories of alienation. All of the children who were victims of PAS eventually stepped away from their alienating parent, and went about attempting to resurrect the relationship with the target parent. This was true even in some of the most awful cases.
While it may not seem to be doing much at the time, your children will remember who loved them and demonstrated it using more than words, who was there for them, and who didn’t hop on the Crazy train and drive it into the abyss.
Do your due diligence, get professional support if you need it, focus on long-term gains instead of the short-term, permanent present guerrilla warfare tactics many HCPs engage in and you and your children will survive this.
Counseling with Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD
Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD helps individuals work through their relationship and codependency issues via telephone or Skype. She specializes in helping men and women trying to break free of an abusive relationship, cope with the stress of an abusive relationship or heal from an abusive relationship. Coaching individuals through high-conflict divorce and custody cases is also an area of expertise. She combines practical advice, emotional support and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Schedule a Session page for more information.
Want to Say Goodbye to Crazy? Buy it HERE.
I’ve read Dr. Baker’s book and reviewed it on Epinions. It’s really excellent. Unfortunately, this advice comes too late for my husband. His kids haven’t seen or spoken to him in years. And when he and his crazy Ex divorced, he was not in a position to pursue anything in court. They were both broke and he had just re-entered the military. The military helped him recover financially, but it’s not the most conducive career when it comes to raising children.
It makes me sick to think how these women use their children to fight their battles. My husband misses his daughters, but he’s doing fine. In a way, I’m kind of glad we avoided the family court system… but I do feel sorry for his daughters. They have missed out on a wonderful father.
knothead, I am so sorry to read this. Often, people don’t learn how to be proactive when leaving a Crazy until it has bitten them in the backside. I agree that it’s sick to watch the kids used as soldiers in a battle that has nothing to do with them. And so many kids miss out on what would be a good relationship with their dad – which kids need – because the altar of mom insists upon the relationship as a sacrifice to her agenda.
I hope your husband’s kids will see at some point just what their mom did to them.
I just hope if they do come around, they don’t turn out to be as crazy as she is. My husband watches them from afar… one of them has a blog. It looks like she’s an awful lot like her mother.
I had a startling revelation one day a couple of years ago. We were always so worried about “losing” my SS to PAS. Then, suddenly, it occurred to me that he might turn out like his mother and we would have the opposite problem. Contact we didn’t enjoy. So many difficult outcomes to these situations.
It is my opinion that most children of high-conflict parents struggle with trust their whole lives. If they can’t trust people who are supposed to love them, then who can they trust? There are people, primarily mothers, who use their children as pawns to exact revenge on the father. This type of behavior should not shock anyone since we live in a society where most women are not held accountable. Boys usually get the short end of the stick. Their mothers fill their heads with lies about the father. This can lead to boys having a negative view of the male gender. Bitterness usually comes later in life if the boys discover their fathers were not the deadbeat abusers their mothers made them out to be. The cycle of distrust grows stronger until paranoia becomes normal. If the boys are left in the care of a high-conflict mother, it is usually the boys who become the adults in the household. They will realize later in life they were forced to sacrifice their childhoods because their “loving” parents could not get along. Without a father, these boys look elsewhere for male role models. We live in an era that encourages the emasculation of men, so we should not be surprised when boys become confused about their masculinity. Most of them want to be the men that existed in their grandfathers’ generation, but men who embrace such masculinity are considered “misogynistic.” So, should we be surprised that most boys and men are lost in their lives and sometimes choose to commit suicide as a way to escape a world that doesn’t have a place for them?
You pegged something I have seen in ladies I know who have step sons. The Crazy mom often parentifies her son, or one of them – and now that son is “the man of the house” and the poor kid is exposed to even more of the dirty mess that a Crazy brings to a divorce. Then, said boy becomes a man, and seeks out the only woman he has ever known, who shows love the only way he has ever seen it shown from a woman, and the cycle continues. If the parentified child is a girl, she learns this is how love is shown, via her mom. And will pick a man who can tolerate it for a while. That is why it’s so important to see past the fear that the Crazy is very good at inducing, and seeing what you need to do for your kids.
I agree with you on emasculation. It’s sick. Can you imagine telling a girl/woman that her nature as a female was wrong, and needed to be suppressed and controlled?
Yes, my step son is known as “Little [my husband’s name]” at his mother’s home. Ick. She also refers to him as the man of the house. What an over-bearing task that must be for a young child.
That’s terrifying. The idea that she would call her son by the name of the man she likely demonizes. That she would put all the responsibilities she openly expects of, and blame and contempt she openly or subtly exhibits for your husband onto her son. That boy WILL have self esteem issues. Trust me, coming from a man who doesn’t like his father (due to my fathers actions, my mother still tries to get me to reconcile), when I first met him again at 15 and I was told I was a spitting image, even our smirks and crooked smiles and other mannerisms were the same, it ate at me. The idea that people thought I was anything like this man I wanted nothing to do with. To have had someone whom I cared about and was supposed to love me and who showed open hostility towards him, say that of me daily would have been devastating.
Parentification is something we also deal with in regards to my stepson. My husband’s ex has turned over control of her household to an elementary age kid. He’s learned that that his mother will do whatever he says. The good thing is that he doesn’t try it at our house. I tend to think he feels somewhat relieved that he doesn’t shoulder the burden here.
I’m trying to work through this myself. My parents divorced when I was 2, and I lived with my mother. I remember from the time I was 3 or 4 onwards being told that now I’m the man of the house. The message was clear: it is my job to take care of everyone (can you believe?!), and not to make trouble — not to be a burden. I got used to always being the caregiver and never the one being taken care of, particularly emotionally.
Turn the clock forward 40 years, and now I’m getting out of an 18 year marriage with an abusive woman. Why did I put up with it so long? Why did I tolerate my feelings never mattering? Part of the reason is because I was taught from an early age to put other’s feelings before mine.
My point is an obvious one. The messages we send our kids, implicitly or explicitly, effect their chances for healthy relationships down the line. It is a point that I am anguished over now as I look at what this divorce is doing and will do to my daughters.
I am in year two of the day I left an intolerable situation. I have since learned that I lived in a crazy marriage. I’m no longer crazy. She will always be. I wish I had found this site long ago. I searched for all sorts of help at the time. How do we get those in the thick of it, here?
Don’t be afraid to ask about it if you see the signs in others. I can’t tell you how many men and women I have spoken with who say, “Oh my god. You have one of those two? I thought I was the only one!” It can feel shameful, although it’s not, and that can lead to feeling isolated. There are so many people who deal with the carnage a Crazy leaves in their wake. Most people, though, don’t talk about it. So, if you see someone showing signs, ask. You’d be amazed at how often you read the signs right.
Rektune wrote, “…I’m no longer crazy. She will always be.”
There’s a litmus test right there. If when it’s all done, who gets better and who doesn’t? In case anybody wonders who’s stories to believe…
Excellent article, LiliM. I can not agree more with you regarding the specific parenting time plan. The vague court order that my husband had for the first few years I was with him was the Crazy woman’s playground. It created SO MUCH unnecessary contact, negotiating, re-negotiating, game-playing, and manipulation. We finally spent the money to go back and get a specific order. And then we followed it. There is NO sane negotiating with a HCP. Nothing good ever became of it because they live on a one-way street paved in double standards.
Dear lord. My husband had one initially that said visits were contingent on agreement between parties. Hello? Probably not going to happen if they are fighting over everything in the divorce, which they were. The judge put that clause in there anyway.
You bring up a great point about following your hard-fought and detailed court order. Once you get it, do not deviate. EVER. It’s the road of good intentions that leads straight to the dark place below.
I would add the advice (sorry if I missed it) to be VERY careful and cautious in entering a new relationship of any kind until the divorce is final. Although modern thinking seems to support dating during a legal separation, the HCP will introduce it as infidelity. And MANY courts are still very willing to change their opinion of the other parent’s capability based on grounds of infidelity. And it doesn’t take much to prove infidelity – if you’re seen holding hands with someone at a restaurant near a hotel and no one sees you until the next day, that’s all anyone really needs to prove that a liaison occurred. And besides, nothing drives away a new love interest faster than becoming the new target of your soon-to-be-ex HCP.
I agree with this. A Crazy means looking like a priest or a nun, and doing nothing that would give them any ammunition. As well, it seems that the bad behavior is ramped up when the non-crazy spouse moves on. VERY good point.
It’s very difficult though – my BF’s divorce process lasted more than 2.5 years and he was tricked when his HCP ex said a year into it that she thought they should both date other people, which preceeded her having him followed by a private investigator. Tricks abound.
I’ve written elsewhere that my closest freind is going through a divorce with a HCP. I his case, his wife was having a very disgusting affair with his own first cousin. Both families live in the same town, kids go to the same schools, belong to the same clubs.
It was right out of “How to Divorce Your Husband 101” handbook. Deny deny deny even when there was abundant proof of the affair: Love letters, texts,pregnency tests (my freind had a vasectomy 14 years ago)the morning after pills. Everything short of actual video tape (that he knows of). She had him removed from his house under police escort in 20 minutes under a phony restraining order. Emptied the bank accounts, etc etc….He lost his job shortly after this began in some part to the obvious traumatic distractions, but really as a result of a very bad economy. A perfect storm.
She has now garnished his unemployment and he is forced to live on $375/ month while trying to look for another job and feed himself. The court does not give a rusty Blankety Blank what his situation is, so he’s behind on support and she is actually appearing in person to the probation department hearings demanding he be jailed even though you can’t get blood from a stone. She also brags to the children that she is going to have their father arrested.
He’s done nothing to this woman outside of typical husband and wife give and take. If she had her way she would shoot him in the head, bury him 6 feet under and lay 3 feet of cement over.
These people are very very smart, and very very ill. I give him these articles to help him cope, but in truth he ended up having a complete breakdown and placed in a hospital which has now begun legal proceeds against him becasue he lost his health insurance when his company folded several months before.
The court is now imputing his former salary and demanding he pay it or else. So, for having an affair with his cousin, this poor bastard (married 21 years) will pay her alimony for life and given 50% of EVERYTHING else. Woman’s rights???? Equality???? My state is a no fault divorce state. Adultry means nothing. In other words, you can get away with it and even prosper.
Adultery means nothing if it was a woman cheating on a man. If it’s the other way around, too many courts are still likely to see women as helpless romantic dependents who will die of broken hearts if they don’t throw money at her.
I think that every single family court judge should be briefed on a case by their law clerks in a completely nongender way. Person A is/did/said this. Person B is/did/said that. You don’t know which is the wife and which is the husband until after the facts are out on the table. Judges should be tested to see if they would rule differently knowing Person A was the woman and Person B was the man, or the other way around. The gender bias – and I say this as a woman – is sickening.
Thank you for the good advice, LiliM. I’ve been separated 4 years now from my Crazy ex, but she persists in using our son as a stick to beat me with. I have found though that if you can get contact/boundaries nailed down as specifically as possible in a court order, the conflict drops to more manageable levels. I think this is because even in her crazy mind she doesn’t want to look, prima facie, as the one in the wrong. I think her intention is to try to make me look bad by trying to provoke me and stipulating completely unreasonable conditions on contact (presumably in the hope I’ll refuse to agree to them, so she can point the finger at me and tell our son I don’t want to see him). (Actually I don’t just think this, it is as clear as day from the evidence (we only communicate through email, so everything is recorded). Unfortunately, no one is interested in reading the evidence.)
However, the contact order I got provided specific details for contact for only a couple of years, then tailed off to “by agreement”. Naturally, as soon as a gap opened, Crazy started stirring things up again. Back to square one.
I took the case back to court again, but got a “defective” judge. Crazy told him a pack of lies, the judge told me to shred all the evidence [seriously] that I had accumulated against her without even looking at it and just shrugged saying why can’t you people just grow up and behave normally. He then pretty much gave her carte blanche to do as she pleases, so now she is back to playing games again with every contact occasion. So I now have to start all over again. (This is in the UK by the way; if this is a common experience I can understand the recent rioting!)
Why do we believe them?
As one HCP (Adolph Hitler) put it:
“All this was inspired by the principle–which is quite true within itself–that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; …they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. —Adolf Hitler , Mein Kampf, vol. I, ch. X[1]
or as his methods were described in a psych profile:
“His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie
That’s terrifying, Mellaril. Especially, the second paragraph.
Thanks, Mellaril, that is very interesting and rings true.
My abusive ex filed an affidavit with Court during our divorce where she blamed me for everything that went wrong, she made out she was just a poor little disabled single mom, just trying to struggle through life and that “everything I do is with our son’s best interests in mind”. She continues to hold this line to everyone.
The reality is that she isn’t at all disabled. She also lied to me about a medical condition in order to get pregnant in the first place (after I explicitly said I thought we shouldn’t have children until our relationship had improved). As for being poor and struggling, it later turned out that she lied on her affidavit about her finances, on which basis I lost my home and 50% of my income: in fact, I later discovered she had $10,000,000 undeclared in a trust fund. The moment our divorce was signed and she took our home, she promptly moved into a $3,000,000 country estate. The “other man” who set this up for her was her wealthy father – who told me he would screw me over if I left his abusive daughter (because he didn’t want her back).
You are right: people have a hard time believing the big lies. Even my own mother didn’t believe me, at least until she realized my ex had been lying to her about various things too.
I realize I have/had my own issues which led me into this situation in the first place, but it is (still) hard to grasp that someone can go through life telling brazen lies – quite literally – all the time. Since it is hard to believe, and even harder for other people to believe, you end up thinking it must be you which makes it so hard to escape.
Had read this chilling quote by Hitler too in Oakley’s book ‘Evil genes’: When kindhearted people are unaware that a few leading individuals in “their group” are likely to be sinister, they are ripe for victimization. Their own kindness can be turned against them and others. Hitler’s greatest strength, for example, was his ability to appeal not only to the worst characteristic – hatred – but also to people’s best qualities – faith, hope, love and sacrifice. As with most Machiavellians, he was a master at turning people’s best traits against them. “He confided the secret of his approach to an intimate : ‘When I appeal……for sacrifice, the first spark is struck. The humbler the people are, the greater the craving to identify themselves with a cause bigger than themselves.’”
Interestingly three extremely manipulative, conniving and sinister women I knew had all read Mein Kampf. That, and Machiavelli’s ‘the Prince’ seem to appeal most to sinister men and women. Oakley in her book of course, points out how Hitler, Mao, Stalin all had borderline personality (or borderpaths – mix of borderlines and sociopaths) but with all the lying and cunning yet all the facade charms.)
If you see in the predator or animal kingdom, evolution does not care for the quality of the offsprings as long as propagation of the species is assured. Indeed in nature, the crueler have a stronger chance of survival. We often hear of sociopathic men going around fathering many children through different women and not caring. Similarly HCP women,(the female version) who use their children as pawns and to further their own agenda, get pregnant as hooks to get the resources (kindness, love, money.) They ARE predators – and evolution, sadly – is geared to help predators. I was thinking of this just yesterday – the problem is that the women who are good and kind, who would make good mothers, are the ones who are producing less or not at all, while the Crazies – who use their children as pawns – go about reproducing much more. When we see this from a pretty scientific or evolutionary biological point of view, one can shudder to think whose numbers will increase in the future of the human race. This is sadly, how Nature works. If it were otherwise, we’d not have such a mess in the world and there wouldn’t be so much crime, and all would be good and kind. The cruel often rise to the top. The only weapons against crazies/evil is boundaries, discernment, fighting back, and tons of knowledge and not allowing our own kindness to be used against us. It will be only through Reason, logic and intelligence in deciphering their code that the good can survive and break free. And when nice guys and nice girls recognize each other and fall for each other, instead of wasting their kindness and love on undeserving Machiavellian predators.
“HCPs know this. On some level, they know you won’t sink to the same depths they do in your desire to get what you want and they count on it. They count on you not wanting to go against your upbringing that includes manners and not behaving badly. They know your desire to behave as a decent member of society holds you back from responding to their behavior no matter what.” very very true and well-written. Know they enemy or rather decode the labyrinth of evil that HCPs use. Never let your own goodness or decency be turned against you but use it for your OWN survival, not the HCPs. Therein lies the key to self-protection.
There is a great quote in the book Gita I like a lot: “Those who commit injustice towards you do a great crime, but to silently tolerate their injustice is a far greater crime to commit on yourself.” Certainly beats the naivete of ‘turning the other cheek to be slapped too.’
Wow, both quotes are chilling, but the methodology described in Hitler’s psych profile hit close to home. My husband’s XW was more subtle than most of the women described on here, but she would tell little lie after little lie. Then she would change things frequently always keeping DH on the edge. Then she would chip away at his credibility telling him he had things like ADD and then going after him with research after research telling him how wrong he was. He had very little sense of himself after nearly a decade of this. It was slow, subtle mental/emotional abuse. Of course when the divorce started happening, she then accused him of abuse and registered at a battered women’s shelter along with writing emails about the fact HE had uncontrollable anger issues stemming from his father. It was a load of complete and utter BS. Oh, and she was never wrong or dysfunctional. Of course.
Excellent first article, Lili.
You say, Shock and Awe, and “prepare yourself from a legal standpoint.” No kidding. There is no win-win with an HCP. It’s always they win, you lose.
we have a male representative handling our case at social services. a female rep attends meetings from time to time, and she sighed and rolled her eyes when i talked about having experienced physical violence at the hands of my wife.
i try to keep things to: we want a custody arrangement that eliminates abuse, neglect, and chaos, and provides stability, love, and a nurturing environment.
if my wife were a man, i would have money from the state (and her), custody, and she would have served jail time.
there was a movie where a writer was writing someone’s life and then the guy was going to die at the end, but a shard of his watch saved his life. it was a decent movie. this website is starting to resemble that movie for me, so please start writing some happy endings like the $800,000 award story. 🙂 maybe also some stories about direct exposure of HCP behavior that thereby carried consequences for the HCP.
the worst is being called a “high conflict couple.” we are not a high conflict couple. we have a situation where one person is abusive and the other is doing his best to manage.
the article above ends on a positive note and offers constructive advice: read up on the law, maintain a long term focus, etc. i appreciate that.
at the same time, i’m really suffering right now. my still wife is literally jeopardizing my client relationships through her behavior in social media, she is constantly commenting on my stuff and i feel “hunted.” my wife posted a picture of us “smiling” in which i had, just a few hours before, been physically injured by her — as her FB profile photo!
no, you could not see the injury. it’s just that that photo is so horrible for me. there we are smiling — and i still remember the pain.
and finding so little solace from social services is incredible for me.
regarding turning the other cheek: maybe the instruction doesn’t end there. what if it is: turn the other cheek, and then walk away? that’s not the worst advice.
what are some concrete ways to expose and eliminate abusive behavior from our lives and the lives of of our children? any short verbal “tools” that have worked for you? have you been able to set up consequences for high conflict behavior with legal backing?
Hi anon,
I understand your frustration and pain. I think it is important to realize that no society has ever been, or will ever be, perfectly just and fair. It sucks, but the reality is that the system is unfair and many of the people who run the system are prejudiced and often don’t even apply the laws as they are written. Realistically, you can’t change this (other than campaigning to change the system and attitudes, but this will take a long time and won’t help you in the short term).
So, the question is what can you do improve your situation, within the constraints of the world as it is?
Firstly: boundaries. As Dr Tara has written in a few posts, it is very important to set up clear boundaries between you and the HCP. For example, don’t let her take pictures of you, sever any links with her on FB and setup your privacy so she doesn’t have access to your profile. Build walls and don’t let her through them.
Secondly, figure out what you want to achieve re contact/custody with the kids, finances. Check the law on these areas. For me, I have found a kind of “parallel parenting” plan produces much lower conflict than trying to do “co-parenting”, which just creates endless avenues for creating conflict for an HCP. For example, what I aim for is a clearly specified contact schedule, that requires minimal ongoing negotiation and thus conflict is reduced (unfortunately this recently got sabotaged by an unhelpful judge, but I can try to fix it).
Finally, try to always be the reasonable one. If she is the one being hysterical and bad mouthing you, but you ignore it and carry on with life (as much as you can) then most normal people will see who is the crazy one. Try not to get sucked into arguments or react when the presses your “buttons”, otherwise outsiders just label you as a “high conflict couple”. I know this is easier said than done, but it will help. You kids will be able to see what a normal person is like and contrast this with a crazy person: you don’t need to tell them, just show them how a reasonable person behaves.
Anyway, good luck – just remember to set and maintain those boundaries. She will hate it and probably retaliate, but just try to hold the line: it will help preserve your sanity in the long run.
regarding my wife’s FB profile photo, another option is i post a picture of the police report and pictures of the wound. it’s either “block and hide” or “step into the light.” there may be other options.
is it slander if it’s true?
we’ve agreed to week by week parallel parenting. it’s been one week. my wife actually dropped our children off with me, so she actually kept to an agreement she made.
it’s just that quite frankly, i feel debilitated. i literally cannot believe my wife would treat me the way she has. in front of social services, she questioned whether i am feeding our children properly, but on FB, she’s all supportive of the nutritionists and superfoods people i associate with online.
the thing is: these people are my clients! many have wonderful stories of healing themselves or their children.
and guess what: our children are very healthy.
and the worst of it is: if any health issues were to arise, my wife is prepared to make it “my fault.”
i am not sure if unfriending or blocking my wife is a good idea.
maybe going public with a few pictures and then saying: please stop, or i will go full on public and reveal our entire story. but then that’s a form of blackmail. or is there such a thing as “whitemail?” i mean, instead of extorting cash with some kind of nasty pictures, what i’d be doing is “extorting” that my wife stop her abusive behavior, or at least leave me alone and stop bullying and keep to our caretaking arrangement.
Hi,
I truly understand your feelings of wanting to “set things straight”, but trust me- no good will come out of it.
The very best thing you can do is ignore, ignore, ignore.
Please don´t let her have the better part of you.
No, it’s not slander if it is true, but it would be wise to consider the consequences of doing this – she will almost certainly retaliate (maybe more violence) and you would look bad for provoking her. So, it probably won’t help you much.
I understand though: to be perfectly honest, I’ve thought about killing my ex – but the frustration and anger passes and I realize the best thing to do is to (as far as practical) forget about her and move on to a better life. Show the world (and you kids) that you are the better person.
Although my ex isn’t violent, she is two-faced: she can be all sweetness and nice to one person and then (figuratively) stab them in the bad the next. (It’s not just me she does this to.) It still shocks me how brazenly she can lie, even in front of judges. Your feeling debilitated sounds like you are in shock at realizing your trust has been betrayed and you have been abused: while it hurts, it is a good sign that you are realizing what has happened and is the first step in moving on.
You’ll have to judge what’s appropriate for your situation regarding FB. For me, I realized my ex will use any information about me to try to sabotage my life, so now she knows nothing except the bare minimum required for contact. It pisses her off – but she doesn’t need to know anything else.
You have a right to feel angry at her – just don’t let her control you by pressing your buttons, if you retaliate she wins. By all means vent your anger with your trusted friends/family (or here!) but always be the reasonable one with her.
she told her cousin “she never invited me anywhere,” but she invited me to dinner at “her” place during a kids-exchange. her cousin called me “delusional” because my wife said that she’d never invited me anywhere. but i ate the noodles. i mean. i was actually there. it’s SO weird.
if my wife really does not remember inviting me, then i am looking at a much more serious situation than just high conflict. our kids spent a week with mom last week. but mom’s not working right now and they spent most of their time just doing fun things. no real bed time no need to make it to school, etc.
one of our children was using my phone yesterday and the phone did not immediately do what my daughter wanted. the child exclaimed “f-ing sh*t!” and i’m like “oh my god!” i do not use that kind of language at all.
one possibility is that my wife is just manipulative, HCP, etc., but if she is forgetting things, like honestly blanking on the fact that she invited me to dinner (and as uncomfortable as it was, i sat there and ate and created a settled transition to “mama-time”), then i find myself wishing there were some kind of “intervention” or something i could do.
i’ve already involved the police, social services, and the court system. but interestingly, i’m not finding the kind of support that blatantly states X is abusive behavior. you did X yesterday, that is abuse.
X is crazy making, you did X last week. that means that you are crazymaking, how are you going to eliminate that behavior from how you treat your husband and chilren?
we are not divorced “yet.” i have a new place to live, which is a breath of fresh air literally and figuratively. but i mean, she was SOOOooo nasty at social services and then a few days later, when the kids are with me she’s like “oh, i love you all and miss you very much.”
anyway, ugh.
and thank you for the replies here. i really appreciate them.
I got my lawyer to negotiate directly with my ex just to work out handover arrangements for one visit. My lawyer described ex as a “brick wall” and said she cannot be reasoned with. She lies, tells half-truths, invents endless specious excuses, conveniently “forgets” things… Bottom-line: she does as she pleases because she is not constrained by normal social conventions (i.e being honest, reasonable etc). Only recourse is to the courts, but that is a lottery: too easy to get a judge who’s thinking about lunch and just wants to close the case asap and move on.
I also showed evidence to the police: they said, yep looks like your ex has committed perjury and you’ve been stiffed. Whatcha gonna do, though? Nothing. (It’s an offence against the courts, and they apparently don’t care.)
So… try not to tie yourself up in knots trying to rationalize it – it just isn’t rational behaviour. Also, don’t expect much sympathy from the authorities, they just don’t care. Unless she is caught red-handed beating the kids, they aren’t going to label her as abusive. Sounds like she is though.
Just got to work out your limits and boundaries and stick to them. Let the rest just wash over and try not to let her get to you.
Anyway, getting you own place is a great move: get out of the war zone and start the (long) road to a better life – good luck!
Neither the police, social services, or the Courts are particularly effective in controlling “crazy-making” behavior. Stop hoping to change her, and start putting boundaries in place to protect you and the kids as much as possible. Diligently practice low contact. No more meals at her place, or conversations, with or without the kids. When you pick up or drop off the kids, stay outside her door, in a car if at all possible, and refuse to engage.
Limit her to text and email on issues that only relate to the kid’s immediate needs, and let everything else go through the lawyers. She didn’t forget you ate dinner. She is a liar. Her cursing around the kids is not within your control, and never will be. Enforce the rules in your own home, and let it go. If she knows that something upsets you, it will just give her the incentive to do more of it. Unless it is a safety issue for the kids, try not to bring it up.
“I love you all” and things of that type are mixed messages, designed to suck you back in, and get her what she wants. I noticed this occurred when YOU had the kids and she didn’t. No doubt she wanted to see the kids, and wasn’t happy being alone.
You don’t need the Court or anyone else to define abuse for you. You know this is abuse, and your job now is not to convince other people, it is to protect yourself.
You don’t need the Court or anyone else to define abuse for you. You know this is abuse, and your job now is not to convince other people, it is to protect yourself.
Excellent point, K. Also, welcome to S4M. Thank you for joining the conversation.
“You don’t need the Court or anyone else to define abuse for you. You know this is abuse, and your job now is not to convince other people, it is to protect yourself.”
is a very good point.
however, my conviction has been: the court needs me to define abuse for them. the court system needs this website, the crew here, the men here, the supportive women here — to come up with clear, easily accessible and “calmly deliverable” verification of abusive behavior.
i know where my feelings on these issues stand. i know how i feel about being raged at, hit, scratched, etc. i know how i feel about being belittled, called names, treated like i’m not speaking when i am, etc. etc.
i’m not repeatedly delivering this message because “i” need it. i’m repeatedly persisting regarding the definition of abuse because each time i get clearer on the definition, the shorter i can phrase it, the more easily i can explain it: the more i am listened to by the critical people involved: the court, the lawyer, social services, the police, the teachers, the school administration, etc.
people, regardless of how sympathetic they may be to your plight and cause, just don’t have all day to listen to you sort things out as you talk.
i may have mentioned this before, but when i say:
“i looked up what emotional abuse is, and it’s actually pretty easy to understand. it’s when someone tells you what you are thinking, feeling, doing, saying, etc. and they are enraged at you for what they feel you feel, or they think you think, but then, when you try to say how you really feel, what you really think, what you’re really saying, they don’t let you talk. they don’t let you define yourself or your emotions or even your thoughts. one psychological way to talk about it is “she’s projecting,” which wouldn’t be bad if she checked if her projections were accurate, but she doesn’t and the result is: she’s mad at me for feeling something i don’t feel and she simply does not let me finish my sentences to explain how i really feel. that’s emotional abuse, and i have countless examples of my wife doing that to me. of course the physical violence is obvious, the other stuff isn’t so easy to see from the outside…”
anyway, that can be condensed.
I’m Happy to see that this is out here for myself as well as others with Children & Divorced Dads . As I saw in another post I wish I had this help years ago.
My thoughts over these Nutty years past now is just “Forgive Her”. Just let it go. It works. Trust me!
It was hard to take but I recovered with friends help. Bless them.
Dirty tricks as what one parent may do to another is beyond my imagination.
I was out of town during one Christmas I called to talk to my 2 children on Christmas Eve. I couldn’t get them. I called the Ex an asked what was up? She said that they were told not to talk to strangers. And If I wanted to talk to them it would be only when she was at home with them. OMG! It go’s on.
She had moved away with the kids while I was gone to work. She would pull the for sale sign out of the yard when I went to pick the kids up. Geez!
There is no need to tell everyone on FB your problems. They really just Don’t give a Rip! I called a close relative of Ex’s, friend of mine or so I thought and found out quick I was as well hated as Bin Laden. Save your breath You’ll need it on your Death Bed!
My issue is still on going after 10 plus years. She remarried quickly (I never did remarry) after the move away 450 miles an has managed to alienate my children. The Money I have spent and lost dealing with this Nut case. The courts, Judges, lawyers that could care less.
Here is my only positive thought. My son did tell me this: No! Mom your not going to keep me from seeing Dad! It answered all my Questions on that comment he made. Yes she was doing her very best in her Nutty/Crazy way to keep me from my children.
Now, Don’t tell your children any thing that’s harmful for them to hear from you about their mother. Someone has to be a grown up. I’ve got one for you I’ll give out for free. Just say: “She’s a piece of work!” That’s it. It’s all I ever will say if that situation comes up with their mother. It worked for me.
I hold to the thought that all will work out in the end as by reading post’s and information here. Time will show the children that Yes! Daddy did love you.
I’m just so sorry for the pain of Divorce/Parent Alienation for all that deal with this.
What is the Ex’s payoff? Payback?
“Just let water seek it’s level”
the thing is, these stories of 10 year ordeals really, and i mean really, do not sound appealing to me.
the core issue, as i understand it, is
one person is willing to cause another person pain and does not stop when asked.
or
one person is not willing to do the things that bring another person pleasure, as reasonable as those things may be (budgeting, being on time to pick up children from activities, cleaning up, not say mean things about others, etc.)
i mean, when a woman is simply “being mean” to a man. or rather “being abusive,” what kind of support network can we create that protects us?
It´s more like one person is heII bent on making you as miserable as herself, and she will not find any means below her standard.
You need to understand that you´re not dealing with a sane person. Any sane person would have mechanisms preventing a situation like this from occuring. Not saying that “sane” people cannot be a-holes, but you probably get what I mean.
The ex in our life lies, steals, projects, denies, uses violence, involves children, involves authorities, family, friends. Her lies are so obvious that even my dog would spot them, but when confronted she just say “I´ve never said that”. Or even better “I didn´t write that email”.
You´re probably filled with a lot of anger and a strong need to set her straight. Maybe you think that if she´s told in the right way she´ll stop and apologize? I know I did. I used to think that if she understood that everything she did would backfire, then she´d stop. Well, she didn´t.
The only thing you can do is ignore her completely. Never show her that she gets to you, and never stoop to her level. Never be the one to argue. Save your arguments and your logs for court.
They years have passed and our case file is as tall as a mountain. People will simply not believe what we´ve been through and what her/FI´s children are living. It´s just to unbelievable and something you just read about or see a movie about.
Her children understands what a piece of work their mother is, and they come to us for “adjustment” as we like to call it, haha;) One by one they are leaving her as they emancipate and move to the area where their dad lives.
Be the sane one. Be the role model for your children.
Excellent article LiliM,
You’ve done your homework alright and I suspect mostly done close up and with personal experience as your teacher.
This is exactly the material a poor soul would benefit by printing it out and having on their body at all times. You wouldn’t want to walk into a spooky forest without a map or a plan now would you ?
I’ve not ever had the experience of such drama where I’d need such precise advice and I’m greatful, but can you tell me how we all got into this great gender mess in the first place ?
All this need for attorneys, courts, documents and evidence, speeches and so on… it just seems so maddening.
At the same time I know there is no other way sometimes and I am so sad for my friends when I see this awful circus erected all around them when they call it a day.
Oh, the information we seek when our heads have finally cleared. I have been separated/divorced for over three years. It happened so fast, I had virtually no time to prepare myself for the impending onslaught of manipulations, lies and overall craziness. I am in a committed relationship with an amazing woman, and she has reinvigorated my life. As a side note, my gf and I were talking about the latest round of ex-craziness that has me in turmoil. I unwittingly made the comment, several times, that “I guess I wasn’t the greatest husband at times.” My gf called me to task on it. “What made you a bad husband, because I’ve seen no evidence of that possibility?” Sometimes, even we begin to believe the crazies when they demean and belittle us. I am a loving father, and as of the posting of this comment, I’ve had my 2 boys, on a fulltime basis, since October of 2012. I say as of this posting, because the next round of family court is on the horizon. The ex-wife is on to the next boyfriend (number 11 by her own account since we split up), scheming and planning, essentially trying to take over and make all the decisions regarding the boys. Needless to say I’m not having any of it, and I am the one initiating the modification of custody. I wanted to touch on something my sister told me, that finally made sense in the most recent dealings with the ex-wife. I was explaining the ups and downs, the utter nonsense that she (the ex) uses to make important decisions and current issues she was having with the most recent love interest. My sister stopped me mid-sentence, and asked “How do you have all this information about your ex?”. To which I replied, “She tells me all of it.” My sister then proceeded to tell me the following. “Your ex-wife is unstable. She lives in a world of manic highs and depressing lows. There is no firmament by which to tether herself as her world rises, falls, and ultimately crumbles beneath her. YOU are her anchor. She ties herself to reality and continuity by using you. You have, unwittingly at times, become the rock in her life that is always available. As long as you allow this relationship to continue in this manner, the extremes that she experiences will also be yours. You will be her best friend when things are going well, and you will be the biggest piece of $hi# when you stand in the way of her next grand adventure. If you ever want to have normalcy in your life, and relationships, you have to break that tie.”
I stared at her for a moment in stunned silence, as the truth of her words drilled their way into my brain.
About 3 weeks ago, I used that logic for the first time in my dealings with my ex-wife. I had just recently met her newest boyfriend, trying to pretend to be at least slightly interested in him (no disrespect to any man dating a divorced woman, but after meeting guy number 7, one tends to become numb to the yo-yo type relationships perpetuated by my ex-wife). This man was introduced to my children, became relatively close with my 10 year old son, and then was unceremoniously dumped by the wayside. In a conversation with my ex, she told me she knew it wasn’t good for the kids to keep introducing love interests into their lives, only to have the relationship fail. Less than a week later, she tried to introduce the next guy in line. I balked, telling her I wasn’t interested, and that I would appreciate her not bringing them into the lives of the children until the union had developed into more than a passing fancy. Suffice to say, I was called all kinds of nasty names. Told that I was interfering and that I had too many problems myself to tell her how to live her life. After suffering through several rounds, I stopped communicating with her. I composed a text, and FINALLY, took my sister’s advice. I told her that I no longer wished to interact with her as though we were friends. Our history was too chaotic and scarred to believe we could allow each other to know intimate details of our lives. From this point forward, the only information I would share (or wanted her to share), would be regarding our children. I had no further opinions on what she did with her life. All I cared about was that our children were healthy, happy, and prepared for life when they became adults.
Too date, all I’ve gotten from the ex are passive-aggressive texts, and her asserting her agenda with trying to “take back” the kids. But what I got from asserting myself is something I can’t readily explain. The lack of emotion in dealing with her, brings a peace with it that is hard to quantify. Sorry for the long comment, but if there is any advice I can give to someone new to this process, it’s just this;
The sooner you can stop seeing your ex as someone who cares about you, and you can return the favor, the sooner you will be able to see yourself for the well-adjusted person you truly are. Just because they are crazy, doesn’t mean you have to take that ride with them. Good luck brothers.
I wish I had known about this site and specifically this article years ago and could have shared with my brother. My ex-sister-in-law has refused to let my brother see his girls (ages 5 and 8 now) for almost a year and a half now. I’m not sure what custody arrangement they worked out during the divorce, but she seems to be ignoring it completely at this point.
My brother admittedly did a few stupid things that ended the relationship (some inappropriate online flirting, never an actual affair). He knew this, accepted responsibility, apologized and did everything he possibly could to repair the relationship. None of it mattered to her. He was and forever will be a bad person because of a couple of mistakes. She seems to be able to find a thousand and one reasons to be mad at him even while they are divorced and living separate lives. Her method of punishing him at this point is keeping the girls out of his life.
She does let our parents see them every 2-3 months. However, they are not allowed to have my brother at the house during these visits and they are not allowed to mention him in conversations. She has told them that “Dad is traveling a lot” as an explanation for why they don’t see him anymore. She read my parents the riot act because they mentioned my brother’s birthday to the girls this year. They ask about him all the time when they visit. I find myself avoiding visiting them with my kids because I am uncomfortable telling my kids to lie and say they haven’t seen him or pretend that he doesn’t exist.
He is afraid to go to court because her family has money and her father has threatened to ruin him if they go to court. They have gone to far as to insinuate that they would claim he was a danger to the kids. I realize my brother is not perfect, but he has never been anything but an amazing father to his girls.
He is miserable. He doesn’t go out because he is afraid of running into her and the girls somewhere (which would somehow be his fault for catching her in a lie to the girls). I just wish I could help, but I know that any conversation we have would not solve anything. I’m not even sure she’s willing to have a rational conversation about it and I would hate to make his situation worse.
Anyway, I mostly just needed to vent. My family has gone round and round trying to think of a solution.
The advice in this article would have been VERY helpful. I just wish I had seen it sooner.