First, I’d like to thank all of you who tuned into the program last night. It put me at ease to see some familiar names from the Shrink4Men website and forum in the chat stream. I also want to thank Shrink4Men community members who called into the show. I’m touched that jp, gmann and Peppy made the time to do so. I was very happy to hear your voices. The first caller was a former client, “Tim,” which was totally unexpected. I was floored by his kind and heartfelt words. Thank you, Tim.
Second, my sincere apologies to those of you who tried calling in, but didn’t get on the air. The show ran over by more than 45 minutes and we just ran out of time. I’ll be on the show again in late April and will suggest that we have less pre-recorded material and just get right to the calls. Next month’s topic will be how to “crazy-proof” yourself after ending an abusive relationship once you’re ready to wade back into the dating pool.
For those of you who missed it, here’s an embed of the show. The show begins with a “man on the street” style interview about Women’s History Month in which passersby struggle to identify women of historical import. If you’d like to skip that, I come on at about 18:30 on the counter. Mr Elam begins by asking me about my experiences in academia. I was pretty nervous, so this segment isn’t exactly my finest moment. We start talking about high-conflict and/or abusive personality disordered women at 31:05. We discuss the effects of toxic individuals on others at 35:41 and then the calls begin at 49:04 (click on the “Psycho Women from Hell” episode in the player):
If you have comments or questions about the show or my responses, please post them below. Thanks again to everyone for their support and hope you can tune in again next month!
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Shrink4Men Coaching and Consulting Services:
Dr Tara J. Palmatier provides confidential, fee-for-service, consultation/coaching services to help both men and women work through their relationship issues via telephone and/or Skype chat. Her practice combines practical advice, support, reality testing and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Shrink4Men Services page for professional inquiries.
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Really good show, Dr. T! I happened to watch the Betty Broderick Story (A Woman Scorned) on YouTube yesterday, so crazy women were on my mind this morning as I listened to the embed!
I really enjoyed the program and wish I could have caught it live. Thanks for sharing it with those of us who missed it.
Thanks, knotheadusc! Betty Broderick is one scary woman. Completely unrepentant and zero remorse.
I thought that you were wonderful Dr. Tara!
While listening I had a thought. I think that you should contact Spike TV (a cable chanel dedicated to programing for men) and hit them with the idea of “A Shrink For Men” show. The themes could mirror those on this web site and could very easily be presented in an entertaining and usefull way that men watching would enjoy and benifit from. A great way to tap into an unchartered market!!!!!
Thanks, rohara. Spike TV, eh? Thanks for the vote of confidence. I’m not sure if I’m “ready for primetime.”
Aw common Dr. Tara! You were made for show business! I can come up with a format for the show, kind of along the lines of “Manswers”, a popular one on Spike. I will be the producer. Stick with me baby I will make you a star!
Just listened to the embed recording. Very enlightening to my situation. I agree with rohara; you need a show. I know many men who find their way to your site really benefit. Imagine how many more trapped and traumatized men would receive the help and information they need. Something to think about!
Hey Dr. T – just heard the embedded link…sorry couldn’t tune in last night as I’d to attend a gallery talk in New York – and so happy that you in fact are an artist as well! (besides your Psy.D. degree) Many important points and facts were raised in your radio talk – overall it was fantastic! You were wonderful – so rational and kind and humourous. and I also liked Paul’s no nonsense style. The show was a very good blend of Facts, humour, poignant reality, and so so glad that these issues are FINALLY being spoken of publicly! It was also a very balanced talk – making it clear that abuse occurs in both genders but abuse faced by men is a fact buried for eons. Yes – next time you’re on – it might be better if the entire show has a more ‘shrink 4 men’ topic and calls. (and perhaps a little Pink Floyd music…just sayin’) Also, you do have a lovely voice.
The callers all had good points – I also very much enjoyed the section where the male therapist pitches in. He sounded so relieved in a sense to be openly talking about the hypocrisy that has existed for years, for a change. I was remembering your Meredith maran post. You and he also nailed it – when he explained how ‘victims’ were needed to ultimately get funding. Bingo! and that the price is paid by the men who are sacrificed. Also, the trauma some of the caller men had faced was very very sad.
(also – in the beginning section where they’re questioning the crowds and Paul says that there’s no mention of women engineers and architects – the funny thing is – in the media liberal arts feminists in fact themselves for eons NEVER like to mention/promote women architects and engineers or tech-brained women. (and neither does Oprah, of course.) Rather they try to bring them down – in fact the great architect Zaha Hadid faced more opposition from women in various ‘councils’ than men, some women who didn’t even let her build. Her closest associates are rather male engineers and she was promoted not by women, but by a man – the great architect Rem Koolhaas. As for the National Organization for Women – they went up in arms once against an attractive young Dutch woman designer – viciously for years- for her design of the ‘lip urinal’and she faced persecution and smear campaigns from NOW who called her ‘sexist to women’ (?!). This is the great hypocrisy of the radical feminists – they promote only a certain ‘type’ of women (a feminist even defended the psycho in Fatal Attraction – just read it on wikipedia)to suit their agenda. So for their own survival tech-brained women are better off recognizing their own brain difference and acknowledging that our brains might be wired more like analytical men’s and that tech-women are a minority in evolution. In fact many tech women themselves hope that ‘quotas’ based on gender does not happen as it will bring down the quality of the engineering fields, since these fields require analytical thinkers, not emotional ones. Not every woman can become an architect or an engineer and feminists should recognize this FACT – and stick to their liberal arts fields. One ‘feminist’ once openly told me that she felt envious because I’d “broken into the boys’ club.” I found it rather strange that she even thought in that way. What she didn’t understand was that we saw our fellow men like brothers who we respected and related to rationally and vice versa, not like the ‘Enemies’ that both the feminists and the floozies wanted women to view men as and constantly promote this warped vision through their agenda. It only promotes a culture of hatred and mediocrity.)
Looking forward to your next radio ‘appearance’! Thanks for posting the link.
Thanks, CAL. I appreciate your support.
You raise a good point re: feminists attacking women engineers and architects. I don’t know if it’s a feminism thing. From my experience, most emotional reasoner abusers attack their targets/opponents/detractors who make intellectually sound arguments based on FACTS. Reality is their enemy.
You were great Dr T!!!! I wanted to call but I stutter even when I am not nervous. I very much enjoyed listening to you. I don’t meet or hear many women who have any empathy for men. It was a pleasant change. I can’t wait until your next appearance.
I hope you call in next time, scatmaster. I was very nervous and stumbled over my words a bit, too. Then I figured that people who are only looking to find fault will do so no matter how well or poorly I do and, in the end, I’d feel bad if I didn’t try. Thank you for registering. I’m glad to see you here!
Thank you Dr T for your kind words.
How does one make an embarrassed smilie?
I will try to call. My jailer however is always hovering.
Oooh, jailor. Got it. Don’t know how to make an embarrassed smilie. Thanks again, scatmaster.
great show. I enjoyed listening. I never would have considered listening to that show otherwise, as I am a woman and do actually identify as ‘feminist’. I think its important that you kept coming back to the fact that you are not talking about ‘all women’, but women with BPD in particular.
BPD women are NOT like all women, though i agree there are some cultural things today that foster an undeserved ‘princess’ entitlement (reality TV a great example). (i know this because I was raised as a woman in this culture myself). However, i did not turn out this way, and its important to keep the conversation from turning against ‘all women’…or even against ‘feminism’ for that matter. I think healthy women do deserve empowerment and equality, all people do. Do I believe that feminism should equal man-hating or the right to be abusive? not at all. These women are mentally ill. That is a major distinction.
don or ron really hit home though, when he described his ex ‘laughing’ in the background while their child was saying ‘i hate you’. it sent a shiver down my spine as i remember those were the worst moments for me as well with my exBPD wife. She would say or do the absolute cruelest things, and then completely laugh at me when i showed sadness or pain. or she would say ‘i just think its hilarious that you think you are so great’ when i would try to say: “you know what? im a good person and i dont deserve to be treated this way’.
anyway, great show Dr T. Everything you say rings so true about these women. They are basically petulant children, and when you can really see it (and get past their oftentimes very good looks), then its much easier to walk away and stop getting sucked into the crazymaking blame and shame tornado that will never end.
Hello thistooshallpass,
In regard to your comment…
“…or she would say ‘I just think its hilarious that you think you are so great’ when i would try to say: “you know what? I’m a good person and i don’t deserve to be treated this way.”
As you discovered, your ex was very cruel. I listened to Dr. T’s radio show yesterday, and upon reflection of that show, the callers and your comment above, something occurred to me this morning…actually it has always been there, I am just now able to put it into words, or a mantra of sorts…and that is…
“I will no longer allow anyone to compromise my feelings of self-worth (or those of my children, when applicable).”
That is what PDs are really good at, they can only validate their “feeeeelinnnngsss’ at the expense of one’s self-worth. There is never any validation of another person’s feelings, or more importantly, the positive aspects of another person’s character. If there is any positive validation of another person’s feelings, or character, it is only done to diminish the self-worth of their partner, or the one closest to them.
It’s really sad because I can see for myself, and for others, how this “pervasive pattern of behavior,” over time, can wear a person down.
BTW…great show Dr. T. Hope to hear you again soon.
Peace,
Gooberzzz
Absolutely. It’s especially damaging when you’re a child, at your most vulnerable, dependent and fragile. The very person (or people) you’re relying on for your very survival, and protect you, help you, guide you, build your sense of self, are instead putting you through hell, and you’re trapped. This does not downplay at all the damage adults suffer as well, but I think it’s a different playing field.
SineNomine,
I think in the case of a PDed parent, they have such a vast relationship on the child’s early experiences and the relationships with other family members, acquaintances, etc. I’m lucky. My likely NPD mother moved out of town when I was 24. I don’t even want to imagine what it would be like to have her in the same city.
oops meant to say vast control of
Exactly Gooberz! It’s been my experience that people with PDs view everything as a competition. If someone else gets attention, etc. it’s at their expense. And since they feel they’ve suffered more than other people, only their needs, their wants matter. Which is sort of like saying, “hey we can’t help the person with the broken leg, because this person with the amputation had it worse.” But that’s PDed logic.
And they don’t view things like love, compassion, sympathy and caring as infinite qualities which can be replenished. They view them as finite things which are exhausted. Therefore, if someone else gets some, it means less for them. While nons are more likely to take what I like to call the “Doritos approach” based on the old slogan, “go ahead, we’ll make more”. Meaning it’s possible to create more love, compassion, sympathy and caring as needed. Ironically, since they are so unwilling and/or unable to give them to others and instead, consistently demand them for others or make a show of offering them on a transactional basis, they drive people away. And it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy as the nons take their love, compassion, sympathy and caring with them. I’ve found that with healthy people, the more willing I am to give these things, the more likely I am to receive them. But with people with PDs, it’s definitely a one way street.
Eloquently put exscapegoat. Especially the competitive aspect you presented. It strikes me as an inner struggle they have with abundance vs. scarcity.
Example: “There’s not enough love, attention, affection, care, etc. from my (enter person(s) name here), so I have to get it all at any cost.”
Kind of like children fighting over candy from a piñata.
The NPD/BPDs live in a world of limitation. There is only so much to go around and if you get some of the “good stuff” like praise, appreciation then in their way of thinking there is less for them. But they like it when bad things happen to other people. Maybe ‘cos they think that means that they will get the good stuff. Who know? It’s a mad world they live in. Hopefully, I will be out in four weeks. Can’t wait!
Congrats on your exit! That’s fab news, Peter. You’re spot on re: these types living in a world of limitation and scarcity. They seem to believe anything positive that happens to another person somehow takes something away from them. I once worked with a pretty toxic group in which certain individuals would go on the attack even said, “Nice job on x, y, z.”
Thanks, gooberz. I think that’s a great mantra.
I’ll be on the show again the last Tuesday in April.
Coolies. I can’t wait!
Hi, thistooshallpass. I agree re: Ron’s story. What a monster—laughing as the daughter tells her father she hates him. What a sick twist. She shouldn’t be raising gerbils much less a human child. Sick.
Thank you for listening. You know, the MRM isn’t about revoking women’s rights. It’s about true equality, which, to me, is something many feminists lost sight of a very long time ago with their unending self-professed victimhood, entitlements and hateful man bashing.
Thanks Dr. T. Yes, I do agree that ‘feminism’ is now a loaded word. So what it means to me might not be what it means to everyone else. (as with most social movements…or ‘isms’…sometimes they start out as one thing and more beyond their usefulness into something else, too far on the other end of the spectrum). Ie, what started out as a move towards equality led to a bit of an extreme…divisiveness, which never leads to real change anyway.
But interesting about MRM. I guess I had assumed that the movement, in many ways, was kind of a wanting to return back to the 50’s. After watching Mad Men, I definitely dont think thats much of a solution either. But good to know its more about equality. After hearing about those court cases/family court, there is definitely a huge slant against men, and its absurd the kind of criminal acts women can get away with due to victimhood ‘crocidile tears’ and manipulations. So, good work on getting the word out there that women can be abusive too.
Definitely made me grateful I never had children with my ex. You know she once said ‘i dont want kids because i cant even take care of myself’. (red flag much?)
At the time, however, all I heard was ‘oh, great! she doesn’t want kids either, cool’…completely ignoring the latter part of ‘I cant take care of myself!’. Of course I was very young and clueless. I would notice that red flag a mile away now. Many of them in fact. Thanks in no small part to this site!
Dr. T, you did a great job on the radio show, and I can’t wait for the next one!
My only criticism, and hopefully it’s constructive, is that I think Paul kept some of the callers on the line too long. However, I certainly understand that it’s hard to manage if you don’t have a call screener, and that the issues raised and stories told aren’t all that susceptible to brevity.
I really do hope you can do a regular feature on A Voice for Men, and even branch out into other venues. It’s extraordinarily valuable for men who have suffered at the hands of BPD and similarly-disordered women to know that they’re not alone and they’re not crazy.
Hi, SineNomine. Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it. I agree. I think some of the calls were probably a little too long. This was only the 4th show, so I’m sure it will just continue to get better as we get more practice.
I think just ‘Shrink for Men’ in itself can/should become an independent radio show…and I sincerely hope it does some day (and if need be, even supported by ads.) There are so many topics to be covered, discussed, spoken of – much of what Dr. T has already covered in this site and much more. And not only for men – who obviously and undoubtedly will be its principal section, but also for women who have faced collateral damage like the ‘second wives’ club’, and both women and men who had PDed partners, moms and other relatives.
I truly hope this ‘underground railroad’ takes off full steam!
There is a difference between the nons and the PDs and for long the nons had to hold our tongues and suffer in silence and give in to the ‘feelings-are-facts’ distortion of the PDs just to maintain ‘peace’. And at what expense? To our own self-subjugation,self-flagellation and allowing our self-esteem getting chipped at bit by bit like the Chinese-water-drop torture. It’s time the voices of the nons spoke up. There’s a George Orwell quote: “In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” I think it’s friggin’ amazing what Dr. Tara has achieved in just 2 years since starting her blog and the platform she has provided to let the truth be spoken of without sugar-coating.
Thanks so much for increasing awareness of Personality Disorders and what nons go through from abusive people with PDs. Keep up the good work!
Thanks, exscapegoat. I will!
One observation about hearing men talk about abuse. It sounds unnatural because men are hardwired, IMO, to be stoic and strong and to reveal themselves as the victim doesn’t fit the mold. I know this is simple programming and education can reverse this so that abuse is abuse regardless of gender.
Hopefully education will turn this around so that society doesn’t immediately believe the party that is able to turn on the waterworks, and at the same time doesn’t force men to play that type of drama if it doesn’t suit them.
Otherwise, great show. Great advice and very relevant to our day. I especially like your point at the beginning of the show about objective/subjective realities and how BPDs draw men into believing this disorder is their only reality.
Dr T, you were great. I enjoyed listening to the show, and I’m pleased to hear that you will be doing more shows in the future. These issues need a great deal more exposure!
Why do people think Personality Disorders are a rarity, per what the Narrator of the show said in the beginning of the broadcast? I was given statistics that personality disorders are in at least 15 percent of the population….that doesn’t include genuine brain chemistry problems like bipolar and schizophrenia. In actuality the Surgeon General of the United States has stated 1 out of 3 people will or have been mentally ill. People are willfully ignorant about the mental state of the general public.
I was a bit miffed by the statement, “..these rare specimens,” early in the broadcast too. I would like to see some actual numbers, because its downplayed a lot. I don’t think they’re so rare, and if was to guess, I would suspect at least 20% of our western population has PDs of some sort, and it’s getting worse because it is becoming a more celebrated way to behaving.
I finally got some time to listen to this and I gotta say thanks Dr. T for your contributions. If it weren’t for this I would still be at a total loss and at my breaking point. I had to realize that I had the keys to my own jail cell. Now the war rages on to get my son back. I know what that one gentleman was talking about when he considered walking away but I believe its important to show the ex that I don’t play by her rules and that I’m extremely driven to take back my soul. I can’t imagine what some of these dudes who have spent a considerable amount of time with a BPD’d woman have gone through.
Before he was born she said “I’m going to abort your son if you keep this up.”
Now its “I just want whats best for him.”
No words re: threatening to abort your child to punish you. Just twisted and sick. Period. She doesn’t seem fit to be a parent. By the way, “I just want what’s best for our child” when spoken by one of these types, roughly translate to, “I want what’s best for me and me alone, especially if it’s going to hurt you.” What’s best for the child has absolutely nothing to do with it.
I woud like to add that as men, we must not start to think that all women have Cluster B type personalities. I know that I did because all of the married men that I spoke to seemed to be married to the same woman (a ta;ked to small sample of about 6). So I basically believed that “all women are the same”.
Then I met some younger women in their 20’s – just as friends. they had basically all volunteered to work with disadvantaged people all over the world (like US Peace Corps) and they worked for various not-for-profit organisations. So clearly they were different. Now I am studying Development and Social Change at university and 80% of the class are women and most are from overseas countries and they are ALL intelligent, compassionate and committed to making the world a better place by reducing poverty and saving the environment etc.
So again I realised it’s just the white middle class women raised in priviliged western societies aged between 40-55 who are like this (ClusterB). They got all the benefits from women’s liberation without having to fight for anything. They all want to marry a professional man and stay at home without working and control the children like a helicopter mum, yummy mummy etc.
So don’t write them all off. There are many good women especially the ones who didn’t just marry and opt out – ones who had to struggle to get an education and get a job; the younger ones from western countries who were raised differently; and the many women born overseas in developing countries.
Cluster B disorders are not limited to white women in western cultures. They’re everywhere and seem to be particularly rampant in “mail order bride” populations. You can’t avoid these predators by saying I won’t date white American women, Filipinos or Eastern European women. You need to weed them out by spotting the warning signs and behaviors.
Fair Point Dr T.
I am prepared to accept the truth in what you say. I guess that I’m still looking for a kind of easy selection method but of course there really isn’t one. We men have to be aware and cautious yet not too cynical. It’s funny how we can spend ages selecting a perfect peach or apple from the greengrocer or forever buying just the right cheese from a deli but 20 yeras ago I was happy to dive head first into a full on relationship with almost any woman who showed an interest in me.
Dr T, you were really, really good! Seriously, you should have your own show. I’ve been in radio and you were compelling, approachable and entertaining. Please do a lot more radio if you can. Thank you for a great show!
I thought it was my imagination about Eastern European women! I have known several and have friends married to them and it is a very odd pattern that I assumed was my hyper-sensitivity to the subject. That would make for an interesting study.