There’s a topic thread being discussed on the Shrink4Men Forum this week about a series of videos posted on YouTube by a man who suspects his wife has Borderline Personality Disorder or some combination of Cluster B personality traits based on how he’s tagged the videos. There are 11 videos in all, which are disturbing to watch on many levels.
As I watched the first two videos, I wondered, “Is this an audition for a reality show? Is this real?” The wife is fully aware she’s being video taped during her nasty verbal diarrhea episodes and physical attacks and doesn’t seem to mind the camera until she starts to really lose it towards the end of some of the clips.
The husband, Greg, remains calm throughout most of the videos, countering his wife’s verbal attacks calmly by saying, “That’s not true.” Sometimes, he sounds a little smarmy, but then again, if I were repeatedly accused of things I didn’t do, I would probably employ sarcasm, too. Greg asks his wife, Lynne, for specific examples of his behavior when she hurls accusations at him, which she can’t substantiate (telltale sign you may be dealing with a high-conflict person and/or abusive personality disordered individual, by the way).
There are many things I find disturbing about this collection of videos. The most troubling aspect is that many of these abusive episodes take place in front of their 2 young children. On more than one occasion, Greg states, “I thought we weren’t going to do this in front of the children, Lynne” only to be ignored. The daughter is crying and upset in one clip because Lynne tells her, “your father doesn’t love me anymore and we’re going to separate.”
When confronted by Greg, Lynne denies saying this. The husband asks the son what his mother said and the boy confirms that his mother indeed told them they’re going to separate. The son quips that he should live with dad and his baby sister should live with mom, to which his sister exclaims, “Not fair!”
I think Greg should absolutely be recording his wife’s abusive tirades for his own protection as Lynne also threatens to call the police in one of the clips. Lynne is physically coming after Greg and he puts his arm out to stop her. He needs to record this so she can’t twist events and tell the police he attacked her. However, I’m uncomfortable with the way he questions his children in some of the videos and that he has posted videos of his children on YouTube.
In reality, it can be difficult not to drag the kids in the middle of parental conflict. Lynne clearly has no compunction about doing so, while the husband states he doesn’t want the kids to witness the adult conflict, but then questions them about it. If you’re in a relationship like this, you need to address it with your children, but I don’t think this is the right way to do so. I’d rather see a father talk to his kids about how they feel when mom and dad fight and then try to allay their fears. This is probably something best done off camera, but I don’t know. Maybe it’s necessary. It still makes me uncomfortable.
I think I understand why Greg’s doing this. I assume he wants people to see what goes on behind the closed doors of his marriage. Lynne’s clearly disturbed, angry and violent. This type of evidence should be admissible in court, but should it be posted on YouTube?
Here’s the first video in the series:
[youtube XtxcB-kBPsY Marriage in Plano, Tx, Part 1]
What I find most amazing is that Lynne shows absolutely no shame when confronted with her abusive and violent behavior. In fact, she freely admits to it. Also notice how she backpedals on her accusations of his alleged abuse toward her. First it’s “you strangled me,” then it’s “Okay, you didn’t strangle me, but you pinned me against a wall.”
In the second video, Lynne goes after her husband with a hammer once she’s decided he’d gotten enough of her verbal attacks on film. Their daughter is in the room as she embarks upon her semi-intelligible rant:
[youtube aCZ7dEPPb0w&NR=1 Marriage in Plano, Tx, Part 2]
Notice how the wife is going to tell her parents that her husband wants her to take Prozac, a common tactic—“I’m going to tell on you and everyone will see I’m right and you’re wrong!” By the way, Greg never said he wanted Lynne to take Prozac, but that he would support her if she’d be willing to take steps to improve herself. There’s lots of other crazy stuff in this video. Lynne blames her behavior on PMS, their relationship, turning 35, her bad haircut, etc. She states she won’t see a doctor unless he finds a job—not sure what one thing has to do with the other.
This next video occurs after Lynne has thrown a glass of milk at Greg. I can’t believe the way she carries on in front of the kids, however, the kids seem to just be taking it all in stride:
[youtube cAixpI49fNE Marriage in Plano, Tx, Part 5]
Lynne apologizes for getting some of the milk directed at Greg on the kids, but isn’t sorry about her violence toward Greg. The bit about, “If you love your father so much more I’ll leave home and you can go be with your father” followed by “your father can go f–k someone else” is horrific. PAS to the 10th power.
This next video is an example of how you DON’T talk to kids about divorce, complete with threats by Lynne to call her sister to “get her [husband] in trouble” and a threat to call CPS:
[youtube hKMEvTAYfdo Marriage in Plano, Tx, Part 8]
Lynne continues to terrorize her daughter with the threat of divorce, which seems to have resulted from Greg not giving Lynne money to go shopping earlier in the day:
[youtube R7Vw0eaBjQI Marriage in Plano, Tx, Part 9]
This video was incredibly painful to watch. My heart breaks for the children and Greg. Ideally, he should have been able to get out of that relationship and get his kids away from that woman before this incident ever happened. I don’t know the details, but speculate that he was probably terrified Lynne would receive primary custody.
These last two videos seem to be voicemail recordings made after Greg and Lynne separated. The first is a classic name-calling attack and the second is Lynne threatening to have Greg “put down”:
[youtube 6LyUpxA_Fb4 Marriage in Plano, Tx, Epitome of a Fool]
[youtube NQMVFbUEDJI Marriage in Plano, Tx, Put you down]
What are your thoughts about this video series? Is this something you would consider doing? Is this something more abused men should be doing? What do you think? Perhaps these videos or something like them could be used to raise public awareness. What are your thoughts?
UPDATE: EPILOGUE
The man who filmed these horrific videos depicting Lynne’s monstrous, abusive and pathological behavior registered with the Shrink4Men site and left a comment the day after I published this post. Here’s Greg’s epilogue, which can also be found on the third comments page:
Hello. My name is Greg. These are my home videos. I read and re-read the comments with great interest and am honored to be supported by many. (Including the many supporters who have written through Youtube) Following countless tirades over the years, increasing exponentially after the birth of our second child, I would set a video camera on the mantle aimed at “us.”
Recording or not it was intended to be a silent witness with the sole intent of tempering my then-wife’s tantrums. I reasoned, who would continue a vituperous attack with the potential of being exposed? The answer is: My then-wife. On one occasion she grabbed the camera and bolted for the wall of the back yard and attempted to hurl it over into traffic. I gripped the camera in the nick of time.
The camera was freely accessible for use by anyone but to my dismay, on many occasions, was not charged or was not loaded with a tape. I always believed that the last tirade was, well… the last tirade. That she would come to some epiphany – that her actions and demeanor would somehow end and she would become a loving mother and wife for the sake of her children. That was not to be.
Lynn could have taken control of the camera and recorded me at any time except, I never behaved in a manner that would have been “recordable.” It was very perceptive of Dr. Palmatier to write, “I hope there was a happy ending, but for some reason, I doubt it.” This child custody dispute was the fight of my life.
I engaged the services of one of the most expensive and tenured attorneys in Collin County. He cratered. He failed to get these videos in front of the judge with the resulting ruling that we would have “Shared Managerial Custody” but that Lynn would be the parent to decide the residence of the children – primary custody – to the dismay of [deleted.] My emotional death occurred that day.
Lynn’s remarried to a previous friend of our family. He filed for divorce one month after our divorce became final though they were dating prior to his petition. Lynn continues to perpetrate her fears and insecurities upon the children. She has always assailed their self-esteem and probably always will. That’s how cluster-Bs work – instead of elevating themselves, they find parity with others by bringing others down. They are unable to feel empathy for others, including their children, as everything is always about themselves.
To the people that believe that I should have removed the children before Lynn’s eruptions… that is like saying to a person who lost their house in a tornado, “Why didn’t you leave when you saw clouds forming on the horizon?” Not that it would matter, the house was still destroyed. To those who wrote they felt I should have protected by children’s identity, I reply… My children are older now and do not resemble their likeness in the video. If someone we know were to recognize them for who they are, so what? They are not culpable and can not be implicated in their parents failings. And I’m not attempting to hide Lynn’s or my identity.
As for me questioning Preston and Brooke following an episode, it seems so benign in comparison – they had just endured a BPD episode and I needed to establish some facts. Dr. Palmatier was correct when she wrote, “[Feels] broken with nothing like he has nothing to lose.”
On one occasion I messaged Lynn and asked if I could take the children to lunch. The reply was from her new husband informing me that I could not. Lynn has always abrogated her parenthood to the advice of the person she is with at the time. (A facet of BPD) I repeatedly asked her husband not to attempt to walk in my shoes to no avail. Recently, Lynn messaged me to demand that I not become engaged at the schools, as I have, and will.
Her continuous taking ownership of the kids induced me to bring out the videos. Now her years of lies, disparagement, malignment, and vilification of me will be revealed. Now all can see where the eccentricities lie. But a few things will never change… I love my children as much as any father ever has. Preston and Brooke know who their father is and as I have echoed throughout the years, “If you’ve ever got a problem, I am your go-to Dad.
From their birth onward it was I that nurtured them mentally and emotionally. I was and is I that offers them unconditional love. Lynn loves them too, except, Lynn doesn’t love the children more than she loves herself. Otherwise, she would not have destroyed their otherwise happy childhood. My son calls me every night and I talk to my daughter almost every week. And when they have a problem, question, or concern – they call the person who will never place his own interests before theirs, their Dad.
Nine of twelve videos are posted on Youtube. Keywords: “Marriage in Plano TX” I am reluctant to post videos 10, 11, or 12. They’re too disturbing. Comments welcome.
P.S. Many suggested that I “knock that b***h the f**k out!” This is Texas and I was not going to take the bait. I may have been tempted but I never sacrificed my dignity in front of my children. I never cheated on or hit my wife and as a result can to this day hold my sceptre high. P.P.S. Following the events of video 9, Lynn did call the police and accuse me of assaulting her. By the time the police arrived I had removed the children from the scene.
Want to Say Goodbye to Crazy? Buy it HERE.
Shrink4Men Coaching and Consulting Services:
Dr Tara J. Palmatier provides confidential, fee-for-service, consultation/coaching services to help both men and women work through their relationship issues via telephone and/or Skype chat. Her practice combines practical advice, support, reality testing and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Shrink4Men Services page for professional inquiries.
Wow… I am shocked speechless after watching these videos! That woman is out of control. I can’t believe she allowed him to tape her!
Frankly, I don’t blame Greg for recording Lynne. Men have to do whatever they can to protect themselves. On the other hand, I’m not sure how I feel about this drama being posted on YouTube. I feel sorry for the children who are being exposed in these videos and would have hoped Greg would have done more to protect them and their identities. But, I have to admit, these videos do show that woman are capable of being abusive and they serve as evidence that might help change some mindsets.
I plan to show my husband these videos when he comes home later. I bet I’m going to see him tear up because he recognizes the abuse so acutely.
I was showing these videos to a friend yesterday who was in an abusive marriage for many years and he couldn’t watch the first video for more than a minute because the woman’s tone of voice was too unnerving for him.
Yeah, I expect a similar reaction from my husband. He works with a guy who is currently in an abusive marriage like this one and desperately trying to hang onto it. This guy’s wife has repeatedly called him at work and verbally abuses him. She calls him a f–king a–hole so loudly that my husband in the next cubicle can hear it. My husband has told me he has to leave the room sometimes when that man’s wife calls because it reminds him too much of his experiences with his abusive ex wife. I doubt he’ll want to see more than a minute of these videos.
Strangely enough, my husband’s ex wife has made it so that I look like an angel, even on the rare occasions when I do get upset enough to raise my voice. I’ve been told repeatedly that being married to me is effortless in comparison. I never thought anyone would ever tell me that!
knotheadusc’s husband here. She’s right. I couldn’t watch more than a minute of the first video before I had to look away. It wasn’t so much the content of her speech as her delivery. Whenever my ex went on a tirade her countenance seemed to change-literally as if she were possessed. She seemed to “spit” everything out from some place deep within her core. Some very angry, wounded place. Like a Tenebrositas. It was as if her Shadow had taken over. I’d often wonder if I’d wake up the next morning or be in some morgue.
Hi Winston,
Very sorry you went through a similar relationship. No one should have to suffer abuse. The look on Lynne’s face at the end of the hammer clip is terrifying. She looked absolutely possessed.
I must admit that watching the videos was painful for me too. It hit all to close to home for me. I’m currently in the middle of divorcing my BPD ex. It was interesting to see that many of the behaviors are quite similar. I also noticed that just watching the videos caused my own anxiety level to go up. I had to get up and go for a walk. It was really painful to see the pain that this type of bad behavior does to the kids. What are the harmful long term effects of this type of behavior on small kids? or teens? I have a teenage son who is closely aligned with his BPD mother. Per my shrink and my son’s shrink, there is serious parental alienation occurring. My son is not BPD, bud he has also learned some of his mother’s bad behaviors, and he is rewarded for them. Sadly, no one is willing to really do anything about it. Per my son’s shrink, “No judge is ever going to take away a closely aligned son from his mother, no matter how bad of a co-parent she is.” Sadly, my ex has also figured this out. She does a good job of straddling the edge so that she can covertly behaive badly and not get found out. The possibility of her being outted is the only thing that bounds her bad behavior.
I too found this disturbing and I only watched the first one. Watching the video made me feel like I was back in my marriage again.
I saw no point in re-exposing to that kind a drama even in video format.
It even disturbed me, and I’ve been no contact with my BPD ex for 20 years.
Painful to watch but I can certainly understand the purpose in filming….I wouldn’t go on Youtube with it though. It brought back memories – bad memories, and am reminded that (even with video evidence) that you could never convince one of these BPDs that they are anything but a victim….ever. Crazy.
“you could never convince one of these BPDs that they are anything but a victim.” And herein lies the reason why you need to protect yourself and get out. Until the abusive partner can acknowledge there’s a problem and not blame it on their haircut, PMS or YOU, you can’t solve this and you can’t make it better. It infuriates me that even w/evidence like these videos that this woman was probably able to get custody of her kids. I’d love to hear from Greg (if he’s reading this post) about what’s happened and how he and the kids are doing. I hope there was a happy ending, but for some reason, I doubt it.
I am amazed that she continues with her tantrums knowing that she is being videoed.
My Cluster B wife lives in mortal fear of being “outed”. She will rage at me while scanning the nearest window in case there is anyone outside who could hear her. She’ll rage at me on the phone, then ask, “Are you recording this? I keep hearing clicking sounds.” (Really? How can you hear anything when you’re bellowing at the top of your lungs?)
If I ever pulled out a video camera and said, “I’m recording this”, she would instantly transform into Pollyanna.
“I am amazed that she continues with her tantrums knowing that she is being videoed.”
Me, too, Verbal. On the other hand, she doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with her behavior and even her small admission of bad behavior was quickly deflected by blaming Greg. If you don’t think there’s anything wrong w/your behavior, I reckon a camera isn’t an issue. However, I wonder what she was going to do to Greg in the two videos where she wanted the camera turned off. I wonder what even more horrific abuse she wanted to commit w/out documentation.
My Cluster B wife lives in mortal fear of being “outed”.
A former friend of mine is exactly like this. She was completely able to control herself and tirades until she could manage to not be seen or heard by others. This is why I have so much trouble with “they don’t consciously do this or can’t help themselves.” I’m sure the conditions are worse for each person.
Also, compared to my wife, this Lynne chick’s tantrums are strictly bush league.
Those videos brought it all back. It’s sick and more men should do this. It needs this sort of exposure to bring it out in the open.
My own is at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efoF_XNKk6I
I couldn’t record in the face like these videos so hid a web cam. I used my mobile as well which she was aware of.
That’s awful, Derek. What a nasty piece of work she is. Are you still living under these conditions?
No, thankfully I got away last year, but I’m having to fight through the courts now to see the kids.
ugh…AXH1 said almost the same thing to me, “I could really be a much bigger a-hole than I’m choosing to be.” (laugh first, then)…okay, sweetie pie. That’s very noble. Please hold while I conference that one with the Nobel committee!
congrats for getting away from Ms. Compassionate.
Wow. Number 5 was a really familiar scene. She is offended at some insignificant thing, reads a huge amount of non-existent hostility into it and then rages at him and gets her ‘digs’ in. She cant even see that the way he was ‘digging’ at her was all in her head. Shes just got to be the vicitm and show what an ass he is and then has to continually put him down – all based on her false interpretation of his intent to upset her by putting the paper down. At least as far as I could tell from the video she was upset about something having to do with the paper? Maybe because he put the paper down as she was trying to clean house? I dont know. I cant really listen too loudly at work.
Ive had so many similar interactions.
Watching the videos was pretty unpleasant, coming from someone that was in one of these marriages. As the first one played I found myself getting anxious, my anxiety level shot up, my breathing became more shallow.
The snide, snotty attitude was my ex’s trademark. When I hear that cutting tone and snottiness I instantly go into panic mode.
“Is this something you would consider doing?”
– I doubt my wife would have let me. I tried to record one of her tirades with a digital voice recorder and she saw it and flipped out. I cant imagine trying with a video camera.
“Is this something more abusive men should be doing? What do you think? Perhaps these videos or something like them could be used to raise public awareness. What are your thoughts?”
I think it would be good for public awareness. Maybe a facebook page or a National Male survivors of abuse day or something. People are so quick to assume that when someone speaks of a man being abused they see him as some gutless wimp. Its just not true, we CANT fight back, if we do we go to jail. Even if we raise our voices or get as nasty as the women are that only gives them more ammo to claim WE are the abusive ones. We are totally powerless in the law, the eyes of the public and in our own homes.
“we CANT fight back, if we do we go to jail. Even if we raise our voices or get as nasty as the women are that only gives them more ammo to claim WE are the abusive ones. We are totally powerless in the law, the eyes of the public and in our own homes.”
Very true and very unjust.
This reminds me of my ex-husband. He would rant and scream and twist everything I said. We finally divorced and I was awarded sole custody of our 3 children. Because he felt this was wrong–because there is “nothing wrong with him”–he refused to see the kids. He felt they were “aqainst him too”. That was 7 years ago and now they are adults. They have tried to have a relationship with him, but they recognize the unhealthiness of his behavior and just can’t do it. I pray these children are with their father and grow to understand this is not how to behave and not how one should be treated.
I don’t agree with this father asking the children to repeat their mother’s actions for the camera, but I think filming this was the best thing he could do to protect himself. No one is perfect, but I can’t imagine he deserved any of this.
Can anyone give me their opinion about this one?
If a woman says, “I’ll call you whenever…”, would this be considered a controlling tactic?
Dr. T writes: “Ideally, he should have been able to get out of that relationship and get his kids away from that woman before this incident ever happened. I don’t know the details, but speculate that he was probably terrified Lynne would receive primary custody.”
That may be the case but don’t underestimate the power of a dysfunctional relationship to draw both parties in, and keep them fighting the same battle over and over again in a kind of pointless and destructive yet addictive ritualized kabuki.
If he wanted out he wouldn’t be posting these videos on YouTube, he’d use them in court an move on. Posting on the web just ratchets up the conflict level, gives his wive ammo to use in court, gives their drama extra life by spreading it into the blogosphere, virtually guarantees the involvement of their friends and family and gives this phase of their war a shelf life that will last for years after the divorce papers are inked. I think he’s much more interested in scoring points than in making practical use of these videos in court.
The minute you find yourself trying to score points you know you’ve become as invested in the madness as she is.
Videotaping an abusive spouse makes perfect sense to me. But putting his kids on YouTube like this is unforgivable. Their anger at each other, and their determination to prove who’s ‘right’, has reached such a fever pitch that neither of them give a sh*t about the kids. The children, without their consent or the maturity to even grasp what’s happening, are made public spectacles for who knows how many decades.
She’s a BPD nightmare, but shame on him.
jp; with all due respect, none of us ‘out here’ know all the intimate details of what went on when the camera was not running, or what exact behavior caused him to feel such utter desperation to begin to videotape her.
For all I know, his friends have turned on him; her ‘friends’ (entourage of fools) may be disparaging his name, telling lies and spreading falsehoods about him all over the internet. Perhaps she is the reason why he couldn’t find / keep a job??? Of course, this is all pure conjecture.
The first thing that I thought of was it seemed an act of desperation…like he had tried talking to her, tried working with her, tried getting her to see she needed help, and was at the end of his rope. I know exactly how that feels, as I have myself felt the need to videotape my supervisor and tap my own phone at work as a way of protecting myself from her sudden ‘snaps’ into livid, rage mode.
I don’t want to make excuses; it’s horrible to show what the children endured. But again, if she is no doubt on a massive smear campaign telling everyone that he abused the children (which I guess could be mildly argued by the way he didn’t intercede with his daughter or refuse to continue the fight until the children were out of ear / camera shot), maybe this was a last-ditch, desperate attempt to let the world see who was really the one ranting.
I was amazed at the little boy who in the video where she’s wiping up her milk (and hiding her shame by projecting it at Greg), who kept saying, “That’s not true!” Man, those kids, God help them, have greater mental clarity than their so-called adult parents!
One of the videos I watched in the series (it may not be one of the ones I posted) was time stamped February 2000. Maybe they’ve been long-divorced and he’s just now posting them? Maybe his kids were long ago PAS’d? Maybe he’s broken and feels like he has nothing left to lose? I think anyone who would go to these lengths is probably at the end of his rope. I think it’s hard to rise above and do the right thing all the time, every time, when you’re living under these conditions. When a disordered person is going off like Lynne, you can’t really keep the kids out of it. There’s really no way to keep them from witnessing that behavior. I agree. I wouldn’t have posted the children w/out masking their faces and I would have muted the first and last names, but then, that’s easy to say from where I sit. I wasn’t living under those conditions.
I have to confess, none of the scenarios you or TheGirlInside suggest–particularly the idea that the husband was posting these out of desperate self-defense against a smear campaign or to reach out to the kids who’d been PAS’d from him since the divorce–had occured to me. Your points are well taken.
Good to see you here, jp. I hope you’re well. As always, I very much value your insights. This is such a gut-wrenching issue.
Victims absolutely should capture these kinds of rants. I have recorded a few of my bpd wife. including the time she broke her hand trying to hit me while I was sitting on the couch with my son.
I haven’t played them for anyone though. At first I didn’t think anyone would believe that someone could act this insane, but once I found this site I realized I wasn’t alone.
Radio Shack used to sell a very simple phone tap; no speakerphone needed. It was a simple wire on one end that would plug into a tape recorder, with a suction cup on the other end that would stick to the ‘ear’ part of the phone…just make sure to hit ‘record’ before or while talking on the phone. It worked great! I should see if they have one that I can hook up to my computer at work (bullying supervisor).
I’m told that I’m not allowed to tap my own phone, but at this point, I’m willing to do what it takes to protect myself. She’s very slick about making sure to only ‘let loose’ when there are no witnesses/ recorded communication.
Perhaps a ‘pen’ camera would have been better, as she wouldn’t have been able to ‘see’ that she was being recorded…who knows how much worse it got when the camera wasn’t on.
I think the good thing about posting the video on YouTube and elsewhere, is so that others can see “I’m not alone.” That sounds trite, but it’s amazing the power of realizing that there are others out there who have experienced exactly what we have…too bad the children had to get involved, but I do understand to some degree his need to expose that as well…to show the effects of a toxic marriage on children. Greg, if you read this, please, get those children some counseling! And stop telling them, “she’s just mad.” Try instead, “She’s sick.” They need to learn that is not normal. They’ll pick up on the she’s evil part on their own when she’s intermittently between partners and they become her targets (believe me; this happens when my father (Target #1) misses a family event…I’ll give you one good guess as to who then becomes Target #2).
Look at her closely (if you can) in the video where she’s got the hammer in her hand…I had a lightbulb moment when I realized, “So that’s what people mean when they say her eyes turned black…” ugh…it’s like looking into dark nothingness. That empty, nothing ‘abyss’ look on her face makes my skin crawl.
I try not to stand in judgment. I know from my experience that being abused turns you into someone who you come to despise. You do things you never thought you would. You lash out, because you feel like you are in a corner fighting for your life (and in many cases, you literally are).
I guess he did what he had to do. I understand the desperation of wanting people, anyone to just know what they are like behind closed doors! That they are not the ‘charming, loving, kind’ people they pretend to be in public! I get that. God willing, someone who’s still in it, still stuck, still wondering, “Is it me?” “Maybe if I just tried harder,” ad infinitum, someone contemplating ending their own life just to escape…will see it and instead of running in place, surviving each day wandering around like a ghost, not wanting to fall asleep at night, not wanting to awake in the morning…will instead slowly start to wake up, walk towards life rather than the slow death of living in abuse, come out of the fog and find recovery.
Then, YES, Lynn, that will have been WORTH IT.
I agree that this is a mixed bag (but mostly positive) having it posted to YouTube. The plus side is that it serves whatever purpose Greg has for posting it, it shows other people that they are not alone in their hell, and it shines a light on a subject that has to be seen to be believed. Why are there no shows about BPD on Oprah or Dr. Phil? To have something that victims can point to and say “See! That is what I go through!” is a very powerful tool.
As far as the kids go, they will grow up with a lot bigger mental issues to deal with than being in a few minutes of video on the internet.
But WOW! that brought back memories. The same tone, the same words, the same threats – they really do have some demented “How To” book they follow.
I think it is interesting that my voice sounds very similar to Greg on that tape. I wonder if that is a common characteristic of the guys BPD’s marry – quiet, non-confrontation, sarcastic, etc.
And one more point: She knows people who are “kind and decent” that won’t hesitate to “put him down”. (Strikes me as funny because that is not an action normally associated with kind and decent people.)
On the TV aspect of this. I watched “Black Widows” week on Discovery ID back in November and they would call a narcissist out and say they had a bad mental condition but would never say or entertain the idea of someone being “borderline”. And although I am not a professional, it wasn’t hard to see that most of the crimes and murders were executed or set up after obvious alarming and familiar behaviors compared to BPD. I believe they are afraid of talking about it…don’t know why. The “sugar-coating” of the extreme side of BPD is terrible. I read sites all the time that say thing like, “supervised visitation is unnecessary, it’s a very manageable and often misunderstood condition”. Even Wiki describes the disorder – “can undermine relationships with family, friends, and co-workers. BPD disturbances also may include self-harm. Without treatment, symptoms may worsen, leading (in extreme cases) to suicide attempts”. UNDERMINE? Are you kidding me? How about; completely ruin you emotionally, financially, have your named destroyed, serve unjust jail time or possible bodily injury and murder? And in extreme cases? I recently read that suicide rates for BPDs could be anywhere from 10-20%. Personally, I think it’s time to stop molly-coddling this condition and it’s sufferers.
“And one more point: She knows people who are “kind and decent” that won’t hesitate to “put him down”. (Strikes me as funny because that is not an action normally associated with kind and decent people.)”
Roger that. Excellent point. Also, you don’t have people put down; you put down a household pet who is extremely ill to put it out of its misery. Further evidence that many abusive PDs view others as objects or subhuman.
I could not watch much of this. Reminds me of my childhood. Not meaning to downplay any of this but this lady is tame compared to my Mother’s tirades. He’s a brave soul..of course, the hammer incident could have got a lot worse and lord knows he probably never got the worse on tape.
I’m certain that a percentage of people would not be able to see that this type of thing never ends…..night, day, weekdays, weekends, holidays, at home, on vacation. I can hear people say, “So, it’s a husband and wife having some arguments…that’s a given in a marriage. All women ‘get emotional’ on occasion. He’s not doing much by antagonizing her with the camera.”
Warning: Gallows humor ahead.
Do I see a “most abusive wife competition” brewing on the horizon between you and Verbal, david? We’ll definitely need video or, at the very least, audio.
Lucky for me Dr.T, I have been in a very good and healthy relationship with a beautiful lady for over a decade. It was my Mom who was my first BPD. And then the proverbial “crap hitting the fan” about a year and a half ago with a friend.
So, there will be NO CONTEST with Verbal on the “most abusive wife competition”. It’s all his, baby! He doesn’t even have to step in the ring. LOL! Congrats Verbal.
Uneasy is the head that wears a crown or something like that;-D
“Heavy weighs the crown upon a troubled brow.” I think is what you are referring to Doc. It’s Shakespeare but I for get which play. I think Hamlet but I could be wrong. Those video were scary. It brought back some things I had almost forgotten about but needed to remember lest I make the same mistake again. can’t wait to hear you on Voice for Men Radio Doc! March 8th I believe?
It was my Mom who was my first BPD.
I had the same unfortunate experience. I don’t need to tell you how difficult and damaging that can be. Just wanted to let you know there are others who’ve shared it.
Thanks david!
Not satisfied with my victory, let me propose the Best Abuse Suffered While Driving A Car category. My entries are:
— Had my arm pounded with a large metal tape measure while driving down a crowded freeway. With the kids strapped in the back seat.
— While driving down freeway, had a pencil jabbed into leg until it broke. Then had sunglasses ripped from face, snapped in two, and thrown to the floor. With the kids strapped in the back.
Top that suckas. Word!
(I would like to thank the Academy, and all the little people that made this award possible….)
I only made it about 30 second into part 2. Absolutely awful. No man should have to live through that, upon pains of losing their children and financial security.
Regarding whether it should be posted on YouTube, my immediate reaction was “No way, the footage should go in a safe deposit box or to his lawyer, but not YouTube.” Then I read some of the other comments, including Dr. T’s, and saw that there could be some very valid reasons for putting it up on YouTube.
I do agree, though, that the kids should have been blurred out or other measures taken to protect their identities. At the same time, though, the children’s presence is really a crucial part of these episodes – that the woman was so out of control (I use that colloquially, not necessarily in the sense that she wasn’t aware of her actions) that she was screaming, swearing and engaging in abusive behavior toward their father right in front of them.
In any event, simply awful.
I fully support this guy’s effort to record his wife’s lunacy. Anything involving kids is difficult for me to watch, as my kids have witnessed me being verbally eviscerated by their mother. Even though I don’t know any more about this guy’s situation than anyone else here, I still can’t help but wonder why he would post it on Youtube for the world. I’m no lawyer, but I suspect he’d have some ‘splaining to do in front of a judge.
I’m trying to catch some of my wife’s outbursts on audiotape for their future legal value, but I’d never make it available for public use. I don’t hate my wife, I just want to not be married to her anymore. Maybe this guy hates his wife, and somehow realized that people like her fear exposure? Not what I would do, but that’s just my opinion.
I’m wondering if all this stuff happened years ago. Like Dr. T said, there’s a timestamp from 2000 on one video. I noticed a time stamp from 1997 on one of the pictures. The kids obviously age, too. In the first video, the little girl looks to be about 3 or 4. Then on a later video, she looks at least a year or two older. And I think I remember the wife mentioning in one video that they had been married for about ten years. It’s possible that the kids are teens now.
How you doing there Marshall Stack.As a musician myself I know all about them.
Did you ever get a good recording made.
Also for anyone out there…..what is the best way,including legal terms to get witnesses to abuse to back you up.
I have no tapes but certainly have people that have seen verbal abuse in public on a very disturbing scale.
I think the site ate my comment. To sum up – awful stuff, couldn’t make it more than 30 seconds into part 2. My initial reaction that it shouldn’t be on YouTube but reconsidered after seeing some of the comments, including Dr. T’s, although I agree the kids’ identities should have been better protected. The kids’ presence in the videos was a vital component, though, to show the intensity and lack of self-restraint in this situation.
Oops, looks like my browser refresh had the hiccups. Sorry about the semi-double posting.
Thankfully I’ve never been in a relationship with a Cluster B, however I am watching a close friend go through hell with his Princess Crazy Pants. He only shares so much information about his situation because he told me that he feels embarrassed and emasculated. The fact that she has filed false dv charges is all I need to know about the degree of cluster frog she is inflicting on his and his children’s lives. I am considering sending him a few of these videos both as a means of letting him know that I recognize how awful his life is with this nutjob as well as showing him that he is not alone. I agree that posting these videos could serve as an effective way of increasing awareness. I agree that including the children does drive the point home. However, I do wish there was a way to obscure the children’s faces and names. I don’t fault this guy because who knows what he’s endured beyond the horror of these videos. I couldn’t begin to fathom his sense of desperation.
First, I am troubled by his having included the kids and their identities in the posting. But, who knows what is going on, now, as the films are dated from over 10 years ago.
But, one thing I wnated to point out, which I feel is important, is that I bet many of us here have not been subjected to abuse as obvious and egregious as this. I am sure many of us have some flagrant or extreme incidents that we can recall. Mine include cold water dousings when I showered and being told I was like a woman and had no penis. But, nothing as wild and obvious as wht this woman did.
I just think that folks that have been subjected to more subtle, for lack of a better word, abuse, like silent treatments, affection withholding, unwarranted criticism, eye rolling and derision, etc should not question , just because the abuse was less dramatic, that they were being treated abusively.
We come out of these relationships(or remain in them) with lots of doubt as to whether we are being overly sensitive or imagining the abuse.
I wish I had had some raging, violent incidents to describe to folks, as explaining this subtle , ambisent abuse is really tough. People that have not been subjected to it on an ongoing basis, simply feel you are describing behaviors they have seen in their own spouses, when the spouse is stressed or having a particularly bad day. The description sounds the same , but it is nothing like that.
These silent treatments come out of the blue. The disdain and derision are there consistently. One does not know what will trigger the anger and hostility.
I was , somewhat fortunate. I did have serial infidelity to point toas a way of explaining my need to get out. This is an easily understood abuse, although in today’s society the abusiveness of it is , somewhat minimized. But, at least folks understand why you would want to divorce.
Try explaining that your wife overdraws the bank account, or gives you silent treaments lasting days, or ridicules your sexual attractiveness etc. Folks think you are making a big deal out of jokes or normal marital issues.
Hey Ron,
I hear you on that. The little mind games, silent treatments and indirect attacks are like someone digging out your heart and brain with a dull screwdriver. And although I have been criticized for being “over sensitive” on some of these things, most people don’t comprehend a Cluster Bs ability to find your “weak spot” and then grind glass into it. Abuse is abuse. I compare it to war time torture…bamboo under the fingernails and water torture. Sure, one is violent and direct…the other, quiet and not a lot of direst pain involved but the end result is the same.
“I just think that folks that have been subjected to more subtle, for lack of a better word, abuse, like silent treatments, affection withholding, unwarranted criticism, eye rolling and derision, etc should not question , just because the abuse was less dramatic, that they were being treated abusively.”
Thanks for this, Ron. I’ve often second-guessed myself, because I wasn’t subjected to the violence, the rages, the language, but simply the subtle emasculations that you mentioned above. My wife had a way of looking at me that just withered my soul. And I was never, ever right. Any attempt to discipline the kids was immediately undercut. It is abuse.
All I have to say, as far as these videos and what others here have gone through, is “There, but for the grace of God, go I.” The abuse I suffered was bush-league compared to this, but it damaged me deeply, nonetheless. I don’t think I could have survived anything worse.
All I can say is thank God for recording devices they are a BPD’s worst nightmare! My tapes saved my two children and I from the hellish prisoner of war camp we had lived in. These “Plano” videos are almost word for word action for action the life I lived for over 10 years. The only difference is my diagnosed Borderline’s rage, language, and abuse on every level made these tapes look like a peacecorps documentary. The tapes were revealed as a defense against false allegations made when my borderline was arrested for domestic assault. As a defense not aware that tapes existed she claimed she and the kids were abused. She even hurt herself and brought pictures to court of injuries that she caused claiming she had been assaulted. The tape exposed the lies and I was granted sole custody of the children. She was eventually diagnosed with BPD and Axis one alcohol abuse. It has cost so far over $100,000 in legal fees and there still has been no permanent order. My Borderline throughout our marriage has had multiple affairs, drinking incidents, abuse of every kind always controlling me through threats of taking my children. She was successful at taking them once and filing a bogus DVP only to return after nearly a year long binge. For that one I had no tapes and she was a masterful Borderline actress in court with tears and the works. I hope someday to share my whole story so that someone may be saved. In the meantime tape tape tape because no one will ever believe how bad it really is..
I can’t afford decent (small and hideable) recording gear, so right now I’m trying to capture at least one rant over the phone at work with an old 4 track recorder from when I played in a band. I’m running out of excuses as to why I keep putting her on speakerphone, however.
Plano, Frisco, and Allen, Texas are chock-a-block full of women just like the one shown. I’ve never met so many women in my life that clearly could be Dx’d with a Cluster B personality disorder than in North Texas. Denison, Texas (just a 90 minute drive north of Plano) is the divorce capital of the country: http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/022811-north-texas-city-highest-for-divorce
I think it’s due to the relative affluence of the area that fosters such creatures and allows them to thrive there.
Tom, I could say the same about south Florida. My theory is not that it fosters them so much; rather, they are attracted to the image of wealth and glamor and they move there. I observed while I lived there that most children who grew up there, boys and girls, wound up leaving the area when they reached adulthood. At the time I didn’t understand why, but it makes perfect sense now.
Dr T asks: What are your thoughts about this video series? Is this something you would consider doing? Is this something more abused men should be doing? What do you think? Perhaps these videos or something like them could be used to raise public awareness. What are your thoughts?
My thoughts are that Greg is one very smart man. In his position, I would do exactly the same thing. Any abused man, where the laws provide for recording of conversations without the consent or knowledge of the other party, should be doing EXACTLY the same thing. In general, it makes me sad, because I have seen so many of these types of families growing up. These videos should be posted everywhere!! There is no better antidote to such behaviors than the light of day: exposure will yield both awareness and hopefully change for the better for men who are victims of domestic violence. The damaging effects on the children in this family will be seen in the years to come.
I think there should also be mention made as to how these women trick and deceive the males early on in the courtship/marriage in order to establish their power. Then the mask slowly and surely slips off.
Men need to learn better ways to SCREEN potential mates, no matter how long and arduous the task, with suggestions such as interviewing relatives, digging deep into her past relationships, and other tests. One can’t be too sure…
Not to beat a dead horse, but these videos do look 10+ years old to me. The TVs and vehicles are 90’s era. So the kids will be well into their teens now and look nothing like they did back then. Doubtful anyone will say to them, “Hey I saw you on YouTube!”
If my home were rigged with hidden cameras, I could make these Plano videos look like etiquette training in comparison. Highlights would include me having my testicles squeezed while holding the baby, having the back of my neck whipped with a string of Christmas lights, and getting kicked so hard while kneeling on the floor that I fall over. Good times.
Hello. My name is Greg. These are my home videos. I read and re-read the comments with great interest and am honored to be supported by many. (Including the many supporters who have written through Youtube) Following countless tirades over the years, increasing exponentially after the birth of our second child, I would set a video camera on the mantle aimed at “us.”
Recording or not it was intended to be a silent witness with the sole intent of tempering my then-wife’s tantrums. I reasoned, who would continue a vituperous attack with the potential of being exposed? The answer is: My then-wife. On one occasion she grabbed the camera and bolted for the wall of the back yard and attempted to hurl it over into traffic. I gripped the camera in the nick of time.
The camera was freely accessible for use by anyone but to my dismay, on many occasions, was not charged or was not loaded with a tape. I always believed that the last tirade was, well… the last tirade. That she would come to some epiphany – that her actions and demeanor would somehow end and she would become a loving mother and wife for the sake of her children. That was not to be.
Lynn could have taken control of the camera and recorded me at any time except, I never behaved in a manner that would have been “recordable.” It was very perceptive of Dr. Palmatier to write, “I hope there was a happy ending, but for some reason, I doubt it.” This child custody dispute was the fight of my life.
I engaged the services of one of the most expensive and tenured attorneys in Collin County. He cratered. He failed to get these videos in front of the judge with the resulting ruling that we would have “Shared Managerial Custody” but that Lynn would be the parent to decide the residence of the children – primary custody – to the dismay of [deleted.] My emotional death occurred that day.
Lynn’s remarried to a previous friend of our family. He filed for divorce one month after our divorce became final though they were dating prior to his petition. Lynn continues to perpetrate her fears and insecurities upon the children. She has always assailed their self-esteem and probably always will. That’s how cluster-Bs work – instead of elevating themselves, they find parity with others by bringing others down. They are unable to feel empathy for others, including their children, as everything is alway about themselves.
To the people that believe that I should have removed the children before Lynn’s eruptions… that is like saying to a person who lost their house in a tornado, “Why didn’t you leave when you saw clouds forming on the horizon?” Not that it would matter, the house was still destroyed. To those who wrote they felt I should have protected by children’s identity, I reply… My children are older now and do not resemble their likeness in the video. If someone we know were to recognize them for who they are, so what? They are not culpable and can not be implicated in their parents failings. And I’m not attempting to hide Lynn’s or my identity.
As for me questioning Preston and Brooke following an episode, it seems so benign in comparison – they had just endured a BPD episode and I needed to establish some facts. Dr. Palmatier was correct when she wrote, “[Feels] broken with nothing like he has nothing to lose.”
On one occasion I messaged Lynn and asked if I could take the children to lunch. The reply was from her new husband informing me that I could not. Lynn has always abrogated her parenthood to the advice of the person she is with at the time. (A facet of BPD) I repeatedly asked her husband not to attempt to walk in my shoes to no avail. Recently, Lynn messaged me to demand that I not become engaged at the schools, as I have, and will.
Her continuous taking ownership of the kids induced me to bring out the videos. Now her years of lies, disparagement, malignment, and vilification of me will be revealed. Now all can see where the excentricities lie. But a few things will never change… I love my children as much as any father ever has. Preston and Brooke know who their father is and as I have echoed throughout the years, “If you’ve ever got a problem, I am your go-to Dad.
From their birth onward it was I that nurtured them mentally and emotionally. I was and is I that offers them unconditional love. Lynn loves them too, except, Lynn doesn’t love the children more than she loves herself. Otherwise, she would not have destroyed their otherwise happy childhood. My son calls me every night and I talk to my daughter almost every week. And when they have a problem, question, or concern – they call the person who will never place his own interests before theirs, their Dad.
Nine of twelve videos are posted on Youtube. Keywords: “Marriage in Plano TX” I am reluctant to post videos 10, 11, or 12. They’re too disturbing. Comments welcome.
P.S. Many suggested that I “knock that b***h the f**k out!” This is Texas and I was not going to take the bait. I may have been tempted but I never sacrificed my dignity in front of my children. I never cheated on or hit my wife and as a result can to this day hold my sceptre high. P.P.S. Following the events of video 9, Lynn did call the police and accuse me of assaulting her. By the time the police arrived I had removed the children from the scene.
Hi Greg,
Thank you for taking the time to share your story here. I am very sorry to read what you and your children have been through. I wish that most men in these situations weren’t forced to choose between their sanity and well-being and leaving children in the clutches of the unfit parent just because our court system prays at the altar of the golden uterus. It’s unconscionable that the courts gave primary custody to your ex. Shame on them. How do you cope with all this? What advice do you have for other men in similar situations?
Kind Regards,
Dr Tara
Greg:
Please post the remaining videos! Your situation is too important to be ignored. I also invite you to visit Paul Elam’s site (another fellow Texan) at avoiceformen.com . He has started a radio program on Blog Talk Radio blogtalkradio.com/avoiceformen and I feel it would be helpful to all men in Texas as well as the rest of the English-speaking world if you would share your story with us. Please contact Paul Elam and talk to him if you can. I would love to hear you interviewed by Paul.
False accusations are the bane of all men in the West these days. In addition to reading here, I might also suggest that you look at the following sites concerning false accusations, men’s issues, and legal news specific to Texas:
falserapesociety.blogspot.com
highconflictinstitute.com
angryharry.com
gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com
Thanks for your strength and courage in posting the videos you have already posted and for responding to Dr. Palmatier’s article here. I’m sorry to read that you are yet another draftee into the Army of the Falsely Accused. Being accused of domestic violence, rape, or sexual abuse is becoming a standard move for those with High Conflict Personalities in separation and divorce proceedings. I have heard more than a few stories about lawyers in Collin County, and it’s sad to read that you didn’t get what you paid for. It’s well known that lawyers eat their own in Collin County and that there have been plenty of legal scandals in Plano:
gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/search/label/Collin%20County
gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/07/whats-matter-with-plano.html
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/columnists/ed-housewright/20110109-recent-collin-county-grand-jury-and-former-da-roach-criticize-each-other.ece
IMHO, any legal result in your case that didn’t involve prison time for you due to the false accusations made against you is a victory.
Hang in there! I hope we read more from you in the future.
Thanks for coming forward and posting here Greg.
“I am reluctant to post videos 10, 11, or 12. They’re too disturbing.”
I would encourage you to do so. If you have qualms about getting censored by YouTube, another video hosting site that would probably accept them is liveleak.com.
There is a large body of belief out there that holds women can not be abusers. The best thing for us to do, as a fellowship of men who have suffered abuse from women, is to provide real evidence to the contrary. I understand that those videos are intensely personal and painful for you. However, they have the potential to be real eye-openers for the naive, gullible, uninformed and apathetic people who firmly believe that abuse is a male problem.
Thanks again, Greg. I hope you have found a much happier path in life than the one portrayed in your videos.
I’m sure it’s been said on here but I’d be careful about surreptitiously filming your abusive girlfriend (or boyfriend). If you’re in a particularly nasty relationship you might inspire wrath like none you’ve ever seen (if that’s possible, a BPD could find that level). The last thing you want is to put your children in more danger than they already are. I can see videotaping her tirades to help convince yourself that you’re not going insane and that you truly are dealing with a crazy woman. But anyone who does attempt this, please be careful (flying hammers, big heavy candles, hardcover books, knives, etc)
It does bring back memories though. In most cars, if you rev the engine too high, the rpm gauge redlines, alerting you to back off the accelerator immediately to avoid blowing up the engine. When a BPD woman get’s mad enough that her anger is redlining, she set’s it on cruise control.
John P:
In some cases, the video tapes have kept men from serving 20+ year prison sentences, for example: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/p/lamb-to-slaughter-hofstra-false-rape.html
Video and/or audio tape may be the only method by which a man can save himself, his children, his job, his reputation and his health especially in the face of Borderline Distortion Campaigns: http://angiemedia.com/2008/12/29/bpd-distortion-campaigns/
How does one protect children in the face of abuse like in Greg’s case? I think he did the best a father could do under the circumstances.
You are correct though, John P, in your first point. Besides the wrath of the BPD partner you are filming, surreptitiously recording without consent of all parties in the conversation or proceedings, even when one is a participant, is illegal in many states. You can review a list of states and their laws on “taping” conversations here:
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/index.html
Some states are “one party” states, meaning that it is legal to record if you are a party to the conversation and you can record without the consent of the other members. Other states are “two/more/all party” states, meaning that it is only legal if all parties in the conversation are in agreement that the conversations can be recorded, with some requiring formal legal documentation of the agreement.
Since Greg is in Texas, a “one party” state, the applicable law is as follows (according to the rcfp.org site):
“Texas
So long as a wire, oral, or electronic communication—including the radio portion of any cordless telephone call—is not recorded for a criminal or tortious purpose, anyone who is a party to the communication, or who has the consent of a party, can lawfully record the communication and disclose its contents. Texas Penal Code § 16.02.
Under the statute, consent is not required for the taping of a non-electronic communication uttered by a person who does not have a reasonable expectation of privacy in that communication. See definition of “oral communication,” Texas Code Crim. Pro. Art. 18.20.
A person whose wire, oral, or electronic communication is intercepted or disclosed has a civil cause of action against the interceptor or discloser. Texas Civ. Prac. & Rem. Code § 123.002. Such a person is entitled to recover $10,000 for each occurrence, actual damages in excess of $10,000, as well as punitive damages and attorney fees and costs. Texas Civ. Prac. & Rem. Code § 123.004.
In addition, unlawful recording of a conversation or disclosure of its contents with reason to know of the illegal interception is a felony punishable by two to 20 years in prison and a fine not to exceed $10,000. Texas Penal Code § 12.33.
The U.S. Court of Appeals in New Orleans (5th Cir.) held in 2000 that a television station and reporter who obtained illegally recorded tapes of telephone conversations, but who had not participated in the illegal recording, could nonetheless be held civilly liable under the federal and Texas wiretapping statutes. Peavy v. WFAA-TV, Inc., 221 F.3d 158 (5th Cir. 2000). The case was appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, along with two other cases raising similar issues. The Supreme Court refused to hear the Texas case but decided in one of the other cases, Bartnicki v. Vopper, 532 U.S. 514 (2001), that media defendants could not be held liable for publishing information of public concern that was obtained unlawfully by a source where the media were blameless in the illegal interception. Following the Bartnicki decision, the parties in the Peavy case settled out of court.”
A state-by-state guide, showing all of the legal details and special provisions, can be found here: http://www.rcfp.org/taping/states.html . I would expect this area of law to change in the next few years as police/government surveillance becomes more commonplace and more people are legally rescued or vindicated by audio and video recordings.
To Marshall Stack and any others desperate
I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to get tape of some kind. There is just no way anyone can or will believe how horrific these monsters are. A judge least of all. If I had no tapes I would be in jail, lost my 20 year military career, lost my home and my kids all based on the BPD’s lies. They are so convincing its remarkable.
I taped over 1300 minutes of my borderline raging on the phone at me. Buy a mini recorder digital or mini tape at radio shack. There is a device that you plug right into the recorder and then put an earbud in your ear. It records both sides of the conversation perfectly and is nearly undetectable. Just check your state laws about what is and is not legal and or admissable. In my state only one person has to be aware of the recording. I then converted the audio to CD. Believe me $50 can save your life! Best money I ever spent.
I found it interesting that the defense given upon hearing the tapes was. “Well of course he is not out of line he knew he was recording”. To which our response of course was “So what you are saying is he was on his best behavior and still recieved verbal and psychological assaults of this magnitude?”. It really puts them in a corner.
I found it interesting that the defense given upon hearing the tapes was. “Well of course he is not out of line he knew he was recording”. To which our response of course was “So what you are saying is he was on his best behavior and still recieved verbal and psychological assaults of this magnitude?”. It really puts them in a corner.
Awesome reply!
Greg,
Thanks so much for posting the vids. I am in litigation currently and cannot post mine. Your videos look exactly like mine just a little less severe. No one who hasn’t lived through or with this can understand the motivation for these tapes. I was asked by the psychologist why I stayed in it so long? I knew that if I just up and left with the kids that I would lose them to her and have no way to protect them. I was even asked “why did you tape her”. I said “because no one believed me the first time she did this and now even with tapes you still don’t!!”. I have found it is so difficult for normal human beings to wrap their mind around this type of behavior. They just cannot believe it actually occurs. Society has warped them into the understanding that these PTA, soccer moms could not possibly be this way. I wish we could all get together and do a documentary. Maybe Dr. Tara could organize it. I bet the numbers of men who endure this is staggering. I thought I was alone until I found shrink4men.
Check out the forum, Dr T was asking for volunteers willing to be interviewed.
http://shrink4men.freeforums.org/anyone-interested-in-being-interviewed-on-camera-t1320.html
Of course you must first join the forum and be approved to view the link above.
Greg
Thanks for posting mate. I’m desperately sorry that you endured this apalling treatment, firstly from your wife and secondly from the legal system in Texas. I’m astounded and disgusted that good people like yourself have to take this type of injustice.
Your experiences will however, have greatly helped others in similar situations, if only to give us some validation of what we went through. Thank you for sharing your very personal experiences and thank you for being brave enough to ‘out’ this individual and highlight the plight of others who have to live with this treatment.
I genuinely wish every happiness for you and a long fruitful loving relationship with your kids.
Thank you
Cobbler
Semperfly – Thanks for the recommendation! I’m checking out a few digital recorders I’ve found.
Greg – Thank you for posting here!!! There’s always more to the story, and I give you credit for being willing to share yours with us.
I say yes, these audio/video tapes should be posted on youtube, in order to raise awareness. but they should be anonymized. faces should be blurred out. the voice can be easily changed (at least on my mac this is easily done). failure to do so may make you look vindictive, and may expose you to litigation for violation of privacy laws.
my borderline wife had been raging in our home and denigrating me in front of our children for more than a dozen years. after a violent episode between her and my son i sought a legal separation. using her persuasive blaming skills she was able to convince child services that i was in fact the one who was abusive against her and the kids, though it was completely unfounded. child services bought her story hook, line, and sinker. when it went to court, i presented audiotapes of my wife raging and physically attacking me. i also played an audiotape of her stating she would call the police if i simply entered our marital home to be with our kids. the judge not only dismissed the false charges, but immediately awarded 50/50 custody. this never, ever, ever, would have happened without the audiotapes. my wife was extremely convincing in her testimony; yet while her sweet, soft, tearful, emotional pleas were still echoing in the courtroom, my lawyer hit the play button, much to the horror of my wife, and it was all over. thank God almighty in heaven above for the tape recorder. it’s the only reason i still see my kids. tape, tape, tape, tape, tape.
this wife’s posture, the way she holds her arms, the way the pants rest on her hips, the shape of her arms…it’s very very close to what my my wife looks like, to the way my wife moves.
video taping and recording my wife has been literally my only solace. as ugly as these scenes may be, i am grateful they are available online. the worst videos of my wife, my wife found and deleted.
the whole “why are you allowing yourself to be abused” argument is often demeaning and unfair.
“if he wanted out, he would…” is a projection.
for example: we have a 4 year old daughter. my wife is spending the day with her. i’m basically panicked and trying to get some work done, but my wife has been threatening that i’ll never see our daughter again, and she has our daughter’s passport and has likely been stockpiling cash (even though i literally do ALL the care taking on a day to day basis and it’s like pulling teeth to have my wife care take for a while).
why am i “allowing myself” to be abused? because if my wife were to gain primary custody, we’ll almost certainly have one more entitled, raging, door slamming, projecting, and for a time, incredibly physically beautiful NPD woman on this planet of ours.
even after only a few hours with my wife, our daughter’s behavior changes. significantly.
anyone making emotional or psychological arguments to a man in “our” situation, who hasn’t faced the fear of:
* being attacked with almost no legal standing for safety
* not having a place to live, a place to sleep, a place to go with your kids
* societal pressures and gender norms
* the possibility of children going into foster care, basically because of an abusive mother, not because of an abusive father (so both parents could lose custody if the truth is revealed)
* the possibility of the children being raised by their mother
* living with someone so two-faced that close friends and family members have a hard time believing you about what your wife actually DOES. not what you feel, not what you think, but they have a hard time believing what she actually DID and SAID.
* involving the police as a male victim of domestic violence
* involving the court system as a male victim of abuse
is crossing the boundaries of seeing psychological reasons that have very practical root causes.
these are REAL and very practical issues. why am i “allowing” myself to be abused? because at this time, i have NO WHERE ELSE TO LIVE and it is very hard to make enough money for the legal assistance, psychotherapeutic support, mediation, custody arrangements, child care, second place to live, etc. etc. etc.
praise you Derek, and may love grace your every step. thank you for sharing your video. for you to have to fight to see your kids with even just that tidbit of a video is shameful. the court legal and social systems are shamed. even if you’ve had outbreaks of violent or aggressive behavior yourself, your wife or x is clearly violent and aggressive towards you, and if THAT mom is trusted with children, umm…i figure you’d be “allowed” to be a pretty severe violent criminal and retain at least 50/50 custody. there is NO JUSTIFICATION beyond unfair cruelty towards men for you to need to “fight” to spend time with your children.
your tone, the way you’re recording…same same same on my end Derek.
and back to Lynne: interestingly enough, she listens a lot more than my wife does, though my wife has never picked up a hammer. My wife’s reasoning matches Lynne’s pretty precisely. Greg said “put on a few pounds” in a way that likely “triggered” Lynne, I can see that. It seems like that came from a previous conversation where Lynne was sorting through and listing all the things that were bothering her.
However, “we” cannot know what is going to trigger such women. I’ve mentioned “wow, that sure is a beautiful moon,” and that triggered my wife.
Also, there is always the nudge, the internal question: “am i to blame?” “did i cause this?” and “if i only behaved differently, she would.”
The more I think about it, expert help is absolutely imperative for someone who winds up in this kind of situation. Ideally, expert, come in the house and be there during potential outbursts kind of help.
If you really think your wife is planning to take off with your daughter, I recommend you check out “When Your Child Is Missing – A Family Survival Guide” at
http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/204958/contents.html Sorry about the html version but the .pdf link’s not working atm.
It’s published by the Justice Department. It’s really intended for non-custodial abductions but still has things that apply.
I hope you never have to use it.
Wow.I have not even watched these video`s and have read the comments.The children should be shown because that is reality of the total abuse! When the abuser is dealing out the venom,there is no care for who is around and who is being hurt.
We are not dealing with a sit-com TV studio here.Reality is cold/hard in your face situations.
This just serves to point out that much more needs to be done to get this situation sorted out. People need to be educated and sometimes shock is what is needed to get the message out there.
Dr Tara……you are the best!!
There really needs to be a revolution. What Dr Tara has done here is awesome bringing us together. I have always been amazed at how the tapes, and stories are nearly identical, word for word action for action TEXTBOOK. One could superimpose any one of these Borderlines into any of these scenarios and you would not be able to tell the difference. Just the other night I was playing number 2 in my office and had the volume up to loud (you really have to turn these things down). My daughter from the other room said “Dad what are you listening to is that mom?”. I was stunned. If that doesn’t say it all.
The blogger who reinforced the concept of why we don’t leave is right on. No one who has not been in this nightmare can possibly understand. The human mind cannot grasp it. Tape, exposure and unity is the only way.
Thank you Dr. T for this article. The videos were very unsettling. It does hit close to home in many of the situations I have been in with select family members and close friends through the years.
As I was watching the first few videos, I was quizzing myself, and writing down all of the BPD symptoms that I could identify. By the end of second video, I had at least a list of 15 entries….gas lighting, blame shifting, projection, bully behavior, threats, controlling, tantrums, smear campaigning, etc. etc. etc. I eventually just stopped writing them down…I couldn’t keep up.
This is a mean little girl in a woman’s body for sure. Although troubling as the video are, I feel more validated…and realize that this IS real, and does happen to others.
I don’t have any wisdom to share, but to say, I am really sorry that Greg had to go through this. Best of luck to him…and his children.
Doc,
After watching a few clips, I have a question. How are psychologists, pyschiatrists, counsellors, etc., trained in dealing with PDs? Do they watch videos like this? One postive thing you can say about social media and the internet is there’s a huge volume of real information available now.
I know the standard caveat is you can’t diagnose someone you’ve never treated but psychologists are big into statistics. How much objective evidence would you need to make a diagnosis to some level of confidence? Or do you just apply the “go” – “no go” of he’s/she’s whacked and move on?
as intelligent and informed as all of these comments are, it’s 11:23 PM where i live, i’m exhausted, and i wish to god i wasn’t afraid to go home. my wife was with our daughter from about 7PM on, i’m at my office. our daughter, if my wife did not yell at her, most likely fell asleep around 8 or 8:30PM. i made dinner before i left to make sure our daughter would eat. my wife and i have a mediation session tomorrow. i am so incredibly tired.
Finally,I took the time to look at 2 of these video`s. Wow….this is too close to home for me. Being on the receiving end of verbal abuse,I do fall into using a light form of sarcasm in order to survive.It relieves the stress of being under attack and gives you a little bit of protection.
The girl is totally full of herself….Narcasistic for sure……..she thinks she is a star for sure.No consideration for anyone else but herself.
I am the mother of an 8-week old baby. Her father physically assaulted me three times during my pregnancy and is currently enrolled in a domestic violence prevention program. Prior to the last assault we had attempted couples counseling, but after my partner left during a session because he became upset when the counselor told him it was abusive for him to cancel my cell phone (and only ‘phone) after an argument, the counselor refused to continue seeing us unless my partner began receiving individual counseling. This didn’t happen and our arguments continued to escalate until I was forced to call the police after he attacked me when I was 8 months pregnant. Despite this we continued to work on our relationship after he began the domestic violence program. Unfortunately, he often takes what he learns in the program and turns it against me (for example, I am “shaming” him and creating a “shame-based relationship” when I express concern about his use of alcohol). Now that he has discovered this website he is using it as a tool to hurt me and escalate our arguments. For example, when I try to talk to him about my concerns he blasts one of the clips above with Lynn screaming and refers to me as “Lynn.” He has sent multiple texts to me in which he calls me “Lynn.” While Lynn’s behavior is certainly disturbing and completely unacceptable, I wonder what her husband was doing before he began video-taping her. My partner will often start video-taping me after escalating an argument to the point that I am in tears and losing control. In addition, I am suspicious that Greg didn’t even bother to try to hide the identities of his children — what difference does it make that they are older now or weren’t at fault for their mother’s behavior? Did Greg even bother to ask how they felt about having these videos posted online? What if someone Googles them and finds this site (including potential employers or college admission offices)? It seems like selfish self-validation on Greg’s part at the expense of his children, which again makes me wonder what exactly was going on in that house. Maybe Lynn was suffering from postpartum depression, not BPD. It was painful to watch Lynn’s out of control behavior, but I know how she feels. She clearly needed help, and based on my own experience more than anything I felt compassion for her and sadness for her children.
If your husband is truly abusing you, then you need to get you and your children away from him. I don’t believe anyone, man or woman, should be under the same roof while abuse is active and ongoing nor should you do couples counseling if it is unsafe.
As for your husband using the information on my site to abuse you more; that’s ridiculous. Abusers abuse. Period. And if he wasn’t reading this site, he’d find another excuse to continue to abuse you, if, in fact, he really is abusing you. If he is, my heart goes out to you and your children and you should consider seeking a safe shelter. There are many abusive women who do the same thing as you claim your husband is doing. They take information out of context from therapists and abuse sites for women and twist it around. Again, it’s what abusers do.
Why do you assume that Greg “did something” to Lynne prior to turning on the camera? Whether you want to believe it or not, many women are really that abusive, on their own and without provocation other than the crazy juice in their brain just flared up because they didn’t get the money they wanted to go shopping for the afternoon or their husband/bf asked them something as innocuous as, “How was your day, dear?”
The physical violence stopped but the verbal and emotional abuse has continued. I did ask him to leave last night after we had been arguing all day. I recognize how destructive this dynamic is for me and my child. And for him. And I recognize that I am partially responsible for the fact that we are stuck in this pattern and that my own behavior has been unacceptable at times.
I am not criticizing your site nor do I deny that there are abusive women in the world. My partner actually showed me this site originally during a time of calm when we were getting along, and I was absolutely horrified by what I saw. I saw aspects of myself in Lynne, and I told my partner that we need to do better for the sake of each other and our child. I am not BPD, but I am sleep-deprived (newborn and lately, colicky newborn) and probably undergoing some hormonal shifts, and my partner has criticized me for not being able to cope better with the baby and keep the house clean, etc… Our last argument had to do with me asking him to change the baby (which resulted in him accusing me of being demanding and lazy), followed later by him accusing me of “coddling” the baby by holding her too much (she’s been very fussy due to gas pains). It quite simply made me sick to my stomach and unwilling to allow him to care for her.
As for Greg, I don’t assume that he did anything to provoke Lynne — I’ve just experienced my partner winding me up, intentionally provoking me and pushing my buttons in a really hurtful way prior to turning on the video camera. Then when he turns on the camera he is very calm and I am crying and hysterical. I look like the crazy one. Greg may be a very nice guy and an innocent victim in all this, but he reminds me of my partner (who frequently goes to friends and family with partial truths or flat-out lies about my behavior) in order to get validation that he is right. He recently called my brother to ask him if insanity runs in my family under the guise of trying to understand me better. Greg’s excuses about why his children would not be harmed by his posting the videos rang hollow and made me suspicious, that’s all. How does posting the videos help his children?
Dear Greg,
I just read your epilogue after hearing about your story a while back.
You have shown a superhuman amount of compassion, restraint and mercy in the face of such disrespect and disillusionment. Superhuman is what you can be called and I would be proud to have you as a father.
Faith is what will carry you on. Faith will find its way into your children’s hearts so that one day their eyes will be opened and they will appreciate you for who you are. They will struggle within. I know this, as a child of divorce myself, but I knew that for me to get over it, I required one of two things from my parents: confession or compensation (the opposite of sweeping everything under the rug, for my parents chose to be together and have children and their divorce rests ultimately on their shoulders).
Stay firm, and perhaps you can find solace in the Mens Rights Movement (sites like the-spearhead.com is a great base).
Kris Kraft
I TRAINED MY NEIGHBOUR LIKE A PAVLOV DOG
I am also married to a Cluster B. Recently she was away and the house was SOO wonderful and quiet. It was bliss. Then my neighbour, a single mother, started raging abusively to her 6 year old son. I found it very distressing. I didn’t know what to do so I just dropped my Webber BBQ kettle lid on the ground to make a loud craash!. She stopped ranting pretty soon after. The next time she started ranting I did the same thing with the BBQ lid. Now I have trained the mad woman mext door. She has stopped raging!! I kid you not! it is true! You see, like a Pavlov dog, she linked the sound of my Webber lid to her raging and their worst fear is being heard by the neighbour (Iknow this because the Mad Idiot Woman I married is the same).
MORE DOGGY TALES
My BEST ADVICE to abused men is to watch 5-6 episodes of the Dog whisperer, Cesar Milan. Then go and apply what you saw about dog management to your Cluster B partner. Don’t talk to her about anything; ‘cos they can’t understand. Just apply the knowledge. You must stop treating them like the alpha bitch (top dog) and assert your dominance, NOT by talking and obviously NOT by meanness or physical violence of any kind. You cannot use any form of verbal communication. As Cesar says, they (i.e. dogs or BPD women)can only understand one thing….DOMINANCE. So you must use dominance or in his words, “calm assertiveness”. it only took me 20 years to work this out and yes, I am separeted and i will be getting s divorce. Whatever it costs, it’s worth it.
I have a friend who recommends watching “The Dog Whisperer” to learn how to set boundaries and limits with small children and he swears by it. Not surprising to see that you’ve had equal success using his techniques with abusive women you suspect have personality disorders as many of them seem to be permanently arrested at the “terrible two’s” stage of emotional development.
Unfortunately my wife has behaved this way throughout much of our 17 year marriage. Only recently it has gotten worse, much worse. The more confidence I get in dealing with her (and detaching) the more angry she gets.
One time recently my eleven year old son got out the video camera and she saw it and stopped the angry fit in her tracks!!! Like turning off a light. Was one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen.
A freaky similarity between Lynne and my wife is the angry pacing in between verbal dart attacks. Like an animal in a cage.
I want to thank Dr. Tara for helping me to realize that this is not a normal way to live. So many of her posts describe my situation perfectly. I especially like the one titled “The Real Reason Your Wife Doesn’t Want to Work”. I have been trying to get out and she keeps trying to “hoover” me back in. I am almost out, your site helps give me strength.
i just about had a panic attack while watching these videos. all i could recall from watching them was how similar i felt in my past childhood. my childhood was so traumatic that i have ptsd i dont know how to full put into words i feel sick. i feel hopeless and pissed off in the third video i felt like wanting to jump threw the screen and fucking strangle that bitch. everything that man and children was going threw is what i had to deal with during child hood i have tried to talk to some people about it and they just dismiss me. i would like to give a brief description of what i went threw. i was a born 26 years ago from the earliest i can recall i was beaten by some woman that people called my mother shortly after that i was taken into state custody and was placed in foster homes that in turn only abused me more as the years passed the abuse came more and more. one of the things i had always longed for was to have a mommy and daddy one day i was put up for adoption and i thought my dreams were coming true until the woman that wanted to adopt me also wanted to abuse me some times she hit me others times she used words and out right rejection all together she never excepted me instead she chose to abuse me and if that wasn’t enough she ended up getting me as a child of 9 years old locked up in behavior mortification placements for the next 9 years of my life so in short the woman that gave birth to ME abused me the foster homes abused me the woman that was going to adopt me abused me and then the state along with the the mental health system abused me and for what?……….. money !!! i am not even going to go off on that tangent right now it is hard enough for me to simple concentrate on what i have to type right here and now. long story short i don’t feel like any one cares i need help but don’t know where to get it. i have been abused by every one in my life from every angel you could think of and i feel like becoming a hermit in fact i am a hermit i don’t talk to most people i don’t care to interact and when i have most people have told me to grow some nuts and get over it i don’t know how to get over what seems to be a continual experience of abuse after abuse and i don’t ever ask for these things to happen to me i think to many people on this planet are fucked up and so i wish to have nothing to do with them i am saying all of this as a cry of desperation i need some one to fucking talk to i need some one that can actual help me really help me and just make it clear help implies working with some one. something i have NEVER FELT ANY ONE TRied TO DO IN MY PAST with ME !!! please i need to find away to heal the hurt i feel in side is killing me
I’m unable to view the videos. The message states they are “private”, and unable to be viewed. If anyone has saved them on their personal computer and would be willing to email them to me, or if it’s a matter of the original poster (Greg, I think) allowing me to view them on YouTube via some permission function, please let me know. I have yet to find any REAL videos of this behavior in action. Reading everyone’s stories and comments, and sharing my own with all your feedback, has helped me cope and deal with my own situation in tremendous ways. I feel strongly about the videos, or any others like them, being extremly useful to me as well. Thank you all for your thoughts and kind words. A special thanks to YOU, Dr. T., for your brilliance on the subject, believing in us, and giving us a sense of hope…..a hope of not only making it through all this alive, but a hope that there truly ARE wonderful, thoughtful, intelligent women out there. I WOULD say you’re one of a kind, but I don’t wanna jinx myself, and other guys, with a statement like that coming true. 🙂
Greg, You should post videos 10, 11 & 12. Especially if they are disturbing. All the more reason to expose her.
I don’t blame anyone for wanting to post those videos. I was married to a man like that. So many times I wondered, what “I” did to provoke the verbal attacks. I had no idea he had a mental disorder. He thought because he didn’t hit, he wasn’t abusing me. And, on the other hand, because I wasn’t hit it was hard for me to realize it was abuse. He was raised by a stepmother that had to have been BPD. She used to wave guns around threatening to kill herself, have “fainting” spells when she didn’t get her way, pretend to take handsful of pills,……That is no excuse for his behavior but it shows a pattern. His rages would come suddenly and leave suddenly. He’d threaten to leave, get me crying, then, all of a sudden he was in a good mood, popping around the corner with a camera(I have no idea why pictures of me crying were so great). Imagine sitting at the table eatind dinner and all of a sudden this person jumps up screaming in a rage. You wonder if he’s going to hit you, or throw the table across the room.
When he finally did leave, it was a secret he surprised me with. He was packing when I got home from work. He had our daughter helping him (she was 9)move all day that day. I was really more relieved than upset by that time. He told our daughter he had a brain tumor (she was 11) and had a year to live…..seven years ago. He got fake blood capsules and “threw up” blood in front of her. (She has PTSD). He would get in a rage a drive with us in the car. Whipping around corners on what felt like two wheels.
He and our daughter went to the police and said I beat her. Went to the courthouse and got temporary custody and a restraining order on me. I gound out because he didn’t bring her home from visitation and I went to the police to get a civil standby. They informed me they could do nothing. He did it on a Friday so I would be served until the following week. He thought I would show up and he’d call the police and have me arrested in front of my daughter.
A few months later she went into a mental health hospital. Her stay lasted over six months. She has been in them more than half the last four years. Her therapists said, “It’s like she’s been brainwashed”, “she’s the sickest kid we’ve had in a long time”, etc. Her therapist told me, “I can’t officially diagnose him because he’s not my patient but,if I were to, I’d label him as narcissistic, sociopath, and numerous other problems. I would stay away from him, if i were you.” After a family session where my daughter accused me of beating her( I didn’t), I made her tell me when I beat her. She couldn’t tell me. Later her therapist asked her in her room, “Who told you that you were abused?”..Her response, “My dad did”.
I knew it was bad but, being as I was “in” it, I couldn’t see it as clearly as I do now. I can’t begin to tell all the stuff he’s done. I didn’t used to talk about it much because it sounded so outlandish to me that I was afraid people would think I was not telling the truth. Just like in the videos, he would find something to accuse me of. Usually, it had no merit. He would have me so confused about what we were fighting about, I would lose track of myself. After our daughter was in the hospital, during one of our family sessions before she came in, he actually spoke to me accusingly about how much i spent on furniture for a house I bought without him, four years after our divorce!!!! I guess our daughter said something about it. They can make you feel guilty about something that is so totally none of their business. I couldn’t believe my ears..lol After being out of it for awhile, I began to see how utterly stupid he was accusing me of buying myself furniture? Really? Oh my goodness, I couldn’t believe that I lived that way for so long!! I spent my bonus on furniture for my house!!!!! How dare I!!
Unfortunately, my daughter has inherited some of his traits. She just turned 18 and now is officially labeled…..borderline personality disorder. We have been through so much. She will never be “normal”. I can’t have a relationship with her. I guess I could but, I’ve a drawn a boundary and she doesn’t want aything to do with me right now. They don’t like boundaries. She has very poor boundary understanding. If you have a boundary then, you don’t love them. They should be able to do, or say, whatever they want to you.
I surely hope and pray that Greg’s children do not inherit the traits of their mother. No one comes out of a relationship like this unscathed.
I have often joked that I should write a movie script for Liftime. You know, the TV that women love to watch (sarcasm)…..the one where they all get beaten, raped and murdered? I never thought, while I was going through it, that people would believe me. It all sounded so outlandish.
Thankfully, we got out. Unfortunately, my duaghter suffered the most.
Regards,
Artzee
P.S. I am glad to be out of it but, I wish I had known then…….I am glad you shared your story. People that are concerned about the kids? You never know when these rages will start. These people don’t care if there are kids around, whether it is theirs, or someone else’s. You can’t predict when, or where. Unfortunately for my daughter, after having his visitation revoked, she still continues to have a relationship with him. She’s 18, she remembers what he did, she knows how he is, she know he’s toxic to her stability and she still risks being around him. For some ungodly reason, she had some kind of Elektra complex and can’t seem to cut him out.I believe, and therapist she’s had, that he was secxually also. She says she doesn’t remember. then, she says she’s not ready to remember. then, she says she doesn’t want to talk about it. One thing for certain, whether he did or didn’t, she’s still messed up.
i just hope Greg’s kids aren’t as messed up:-)
Yeah, I realize it’s shrink4men.