The following article was written by one of my clients, also a doctor, but in another health field. He’s the same client who created the High-Conflict Phases of Abuse, Blame-Shifting, Distortion, Rage and Manipulation Diagram. In the article below, he sorts out the difference between having a judgmental mind versus having a discerning mind.
He makes a very good argument that many high-conflict and/or abusive personality-disordered individuals are very able and willing to judge others based on their own inconsistent emotional states that rarely have anything to do with reality, but are unable to assess situations with logical and factual discernment. This results in splitting (i.e., black and white/all-or-nothing thinking) and ongoing abuse directed toward their partners or anyone who challenges or criticizes them in any way. It makes very interesting and meritorious food for thought. What do you think?
High-Conflict and Abusive Personality-Disordered Women: The Emotional Judging Mind Vs. the Discerning Mind
by: Anonymous Client a.k.a. AC007
If you have been involved with a high-conflict woman, you have, without a doubt, been subjected to your share of harsh criticism and judgment. No one is perfect, but you know that the criticism you receive is unwarranted. The sheer quantity and repetitive nature of her judgments will serve as a red flag at some point.
Any defense of your alleged offenses will certainly elicit a response that you are always judging her in some way. On the surface, this counterpoint makes just enough sense to seem valid. I mean, you were probably somewhat critical of her in your defense, right? It is easy to get caught in this quagmire.
The Merriam Webster Dictionary defines judgment as a formal utterance of authoritative opinion. But what happens when this opinion is based on distorted views and the authority is an emotionally-charged victim who never takes responsibility for anything? The net result is that her judgments become false and self-serving accusations. Her goal is to put you in a one-down situation whereby you constantly have to defend yourself.
Your defensive responses then fulfill her prophecy that you are the critical, judgmental person. In actuality, the judgments you defend lack any merit because they are based on her distorted views. But somehow, you go there anyways hoping to prove yourself right, but always finding the arguments futile. So what is really going on?
I would offer that the answer lies in understanding the conceptual differences between judgment and discernment. Judgment creates a polarized emotional value of good or bad directed towards something or someone. During adversity with a high-conflict individual, their judgments are negative and always directed towards others because they lack the introspective ability to assess any faults of their own.
Wrestling with their own unspoken inferiority, they negatively judge you to make themselves feel superior. They attack your character in order to make your morals and principles appear flawed. Strategically, they base everything on emotion and not reality. It is this illogical thinking that makes their judgmental nature so difficult to understand. Ultimately, you are not really defending yourself, but fighting her deep rooted inferiority complex.
So how can we rationalize her counterclaim of your judgmental nature? The answer is based on how you assess a situation in your mind. Although we are all guilty of being emotional and judgmental at times, I would suggest that your best efforts to defend yourself are based on discernment. Discernment is defined as the quality of being able to grasp and comprehend what is obscure. A discerning mind can detach from the situation and thereby look at the facts objectively and without emotional attachment. Decisions can be rendered without excuses, blaming, distorting the facts or the need to feel superior.
A discerning mind will conform its actions to the facts. A discerning individual will acknowledge that no person will agree with them all of the time. They can agree to disagree. They know that they are in control of their own decisions and outcomes. There is no need to control others. A difference of opinion is not actually judging someone as bad, but rather, assessing a situation and responding to it in a logical and non-contradictory way. However, since a high-conflict woman only knows judgment, she will perceive any defense or counter perspective from you as you trying to make her look inferior. This threatens her and triggers further conflict and rage. It becomes a vicious cycle
Ideally, a relationship would be one of mutually discerning minds. Discussions could be resolved based on the facts and not inconsistent, emotional judgments. Unfortunately, the high-conflict individual lacks such prerequisites as empathy and introspection in order to develop discernment. This results in a runaway judgmental mind that sees the world in black or white where everything is either all good or all bad (i.e., splitting).
Because emotions tend to be inconsistent by nature, judgments themselves become inconsistent over time. This accounts for her ability to hate you at bedtime, but love you in the morning as everything revolves around her labile emotional barometer. This lack of discernment, coupled with a perpetual judgmental mindset, sets the stage for her never-ending unhappiness and chronic lack of accountability. As a result, you constantly walk on perpetually shifting landmines and gradually become emotionally detached. She claims to be the one who has always fought for the marriage, but in reality, she has done everything to destroy it.
The long-term prognosis for any interpersonal development on her part is unlikely because she lacks the necessary mindset required to analyze and modify her behaviors. Any effort on your part to help her change this mindset will only incur more harsh, negative judgment directed at you. Your best option is to be discerning and evaluate the relationship yourself. Understanding and believing that you are not the critical and judgmental person should serve as a starting point. Ultimately, you need to decide whether to accept her as she is or to not participate in the relationship at all.
In the mean time, try to accept that her judging nature is not really about you, but rather a reflection of her insecurities and attempts to feel superior, even though it’s very cold comfort.
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On blame and judgment, in the cases of abuse (sexual, emotional, neglect or physical) many times (if in not all cases) a child is blamed by the perpetrator and made to feel it’s their fault for being abused. Not only is it a “taught behavior” but in their minds (the PD individual) they know the original acts of abuse where not their fault. As a defense mechanism, they seem to somehow grow to believe by blaming others that the vulnerability will cease to ever happen again. And a majority of time, the parental abuser is never held responsible for what they did. So why should they be held responsible for anything in their lives? It also helps “block out” the idea of confronting not only their problems but keeps them from having to “accept” that they were abused. The mind can repress even the worst horrors. A complete mental breakdown would occur in many of these personality types if they ever let go of those mental blocks.
Of course, these are just my opinions and thoughts on the idea that this behavior is caused by abusive pasts.
This is one of the best written explanations I’ve read on one very confusing subject. Having spent nearly five years being falsely accused and judged, I still feel (10 months out) like I’ve been slimed, or should feel guilty, etc…at which time I remind myself that it wasn’t me demonstrating cruelty and all the other ugly and insane behaviors she employed in the relationship. It’s exhausting, discouraging, frustrating, and I’m still trying to get back to who I am and leave this bs behind. What a waste of life and love.
For a person with a discerning mind, facts inform their feelings. “I’m in a bad mood today.” “Oh, why’s that?” “Someone scraped my car in the parking lot and didn’t leave a note.” Simple.
The person with a judgmental mind establishes a feeling first, then revises history to create events that support it. Thus, the high conflict individual will distort, exaggerate and fabricate facts so that they describe what she “feels” to be true.
Historical revisionism is the Cluster B’s best friend.
Verbal,
i really liked your post and wanted to expand on it for a lil bit.
One of the main problems i had in dealing with my ex was the emotions that rose waaaay above the proper level. I’d do something wrong (tho not knowing it was wrong) and she would explode on me. If you look thru many earlier threads from me you’ll have an understanding of the bizarre things she would explode at me. Now i’m a pretty good guy, so my first reaction would be to try to understand what i’ve done wrong, apologize, and correct it. But things would go so out of control so fast, while i’m still trying to process what she’s mad at, i’d be bombarded with other accusations, horrible name calling, hystrionics of every variety. So while i started off in a somewhat neutral position of trying to discern what the problem was, i’d soon be thrown into the arena of fight-or-flight. Now in order to appease, or at least be able to figure out what the hell is going on, i’d try the flight, at least to some degree. But when i was stuck in the car and she’s going off on me for going to the wrong gas station (yep that’s what one fight was about, cuz i didn’t go to the gas station that she wanted me to), then screaming at me at the top of her voice, i’m feeling very backed into a corner, my flight ability is gone and now its time to fight because the other two options no longer exist. If i backed down, then i was labeled a pussy (her words, sorry for the profanity) who couldn’t stand up to his girl. If i fought and stood up for myself, then i was an abusive bully, tho all i was trying to do is defend myself, get her off of me so that we could – somehow – talk about things sensibly. that was a pretty good example of how quickly things could change and how messed up they could get… all over nothing.
So yeah, they’ll get an emotion, take the mindset of “i feel it therefore it must be so”, it takes on its own life and vitality, gets thrown upon the other person, like an ambush. But in order to justify that emotion (if their mind ever lets them get that far) they have to change things, invent things. then again, perhaps they don’t even consider justifying anything. perhaps its just a matter of “i feel it, therefore it must be so”. perhaps that is the only justification they need. seems to be a much simpler quick fix – tho it certainly doesn’t “fix” anything, it makes things infinitely worse. but then when you call them on it, no matter how much obvious proof you have, they just deny, deny, deny. and when that doesn’t work, they’ll accuse YOU of distorting the truth, taking things out of context, you for making things worse. its like they’re saying “HOW DARE YOU for accusing me of the things that i did”.
in the end, its just time to go…
Freedom,
You absolutely nailed the dynamics of conflift I experienced over and over for the better part of 15 years! One other common tactic experienced, was the continual subtle and not so subtle putdowns and questioning of my choice in pretty much everything. E.G. clothing,vehicle, music, movies, word choices…she once angrily demanded that I not ever use the word “smell”! I could go on and on with examples. When I would call bullshit and stand up for myself, her pat response was that I was “insecure”. What an absolute Nutbag!
Chester,
Dude, i gotta reply to your post (and i have a big smile doing it). 2 exes ago, the girl i was dating had a problem with the word “dude”. it didn’t matter if she knew you for 30 seconds or 30 years, if you used the word dude around her she would jump down your throat. i finally had had enough when jumped down my throat – again. she claimed that the word dude meant a pimple on a donkey’s butt, therefore it was degrading (i’m not creative enough to make this up). so i asked her a question: “if we were to poll one hundred average people on the street how many do you think would have a problem with the word dude?”. she, of course, looked at me like i’d lost my mind and didn’t get where i was going with this question. so i persisted, “ok, then how many out of a thousand? if you’re lucky, one in a thousand MIGHT have a problem with the word dude, whereas 999 will not. that’s .1% of the population. therefore 99.9% of the population has no problem with that. YOU are that .1% going against 99.9%. you expect 99.9% of the population to cater to your .1% freaky quirk? get over yourself and realize that its you that has this bizarre issue with a word that’s been around for a looooong time, words change their meanings thru the years, so stop clinging to some definition that may have applied in the 1900s, but doesn’t apply now. realize that you have NO right to jump down someone’s throat, go off on them for a childish quirk that YOU possess but won’t take responsibility for”.
believe it or not it shut her up… for about 2 minutes until she found another quirk… she was quirky like that…
i had to offer this up. this is the best comedy routine i’ve ever seen. you’ll love it cuz it deals with a lot of stuff that’s on this site, and dealing with crazy women. watch the whole thing, even tho its about 10 minutes long cuz in the latter part he deals with his wife who goes nuts on him (and it gets rather personal). this whole video covers dealing with the high conflict personality. enjoy…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XOnfP-H_0A
perhaps you should start with this part first cuz its funnier(the other segment gets really serious), and it gives a great lead in to the previous part… this part deals with making excuses for the other person, then jealousy, then talking with other people about your relationship. trust me, you’ll laugh cuz we’ve ALL been here…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIgwgev-vRU&feature=related
i agree,i am in same boat,lived with a woman i couldnt do anything right for.if i painted it was wrong,if i shopped i bought the wrong things,my job is no good,i have no friends because all of them were drug addicts or alcoholics according to her,but her friends are those things.i cant ask her to get me a drink without a fight.its insanity and i realized im not to blame.i should have researched yrs ago.
good luck
An absolutely BRILLIANT piece of writing! Thank you for this analysis. I have long believed that logic, objectivity and discernment can solve irrational emotional puzzles, and this piece is seeing its practical application – explained eloquently through words of wisdom that clarify both the vicious cycle and the key to remove oneself from it without self-flagellation.
On that note, I’d like to add that an extremely disturbed yet very high functioning PDI (personality-disordered-individual) with Cluster B I knew would say that PDI’s favourite quote was one of Anais Nin:”We see the world not for what it is, but for who we are.” It figures, right? ‘Facts’ based on emotional judgments viewed through a subjective mindset, in lieu of viewing facts or truth objectively. When asked what my favourite quote was, geek that I am and a long-time fan of Spock & Sherlock Holmes, I had to admit that as a teenager my favourite lines were: “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” I thank Conan Doyle that this logic served me well in understanding that that PDI’s ‘feelings’ were NOT facts. As is evident, that relation between PDI and moi was doomed from the start with our differing perspectives of viewing the world and objective truth, and good riddance in retrospect to be free from that crazy ride.
A big thank-you for this article.
sorry, an errata in the comment above. The exact Nin quote goes : “We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.” a.k.a view ‘facts’ depending on our mood-at-that-moment.
Love it
Wow that short article sums up for me precisely what I went through before I was locked out of my house and prevented from seeing my young daughter until I got a court ordering access.
My joy in life is I understand the behaviour so it does not work on me anymore. I have trained myself to remain unbelievably calm and patient at all times, especially when the crazy behaviour starts.
I have a lot of key phrases that I always calmly say in reaction to any hostility or judgment such as:
– is that what your lawyer told you to say?
– sounds like you’ve been reading self-help books again
– no its because a little girl isn’t seeing her father enough
– cooperation would benefit your daughter
– hmmmmm – very interesting perspective
It’s a little bit of mocking, but with all the love and kindness in the world and a big smile. It throws her off because she has been so programed to create conflict.
I can’t wait for when my daughter is older and living with me so I can
#1. Thank my ex for locking me out of the house (best thing that could have ever happened for my daughter and me)
#2 Go to court and have her paying child support – LOL
For any guy out there I would suggest start training yourself not to react, it works wonders.
As a friend’s mother used to say re: dealing with these types, “If you can fake sincerity, you’ve got it made.” Although, come to think of it, I’m not sure if the was referring to HCIs/APDIs or Nons. . . Well, it’s worked for Oprah anyway.
A very good article that seems to hit close to home with me.
I would like to add that in addition of an inability to accept her faults and responsibility, there is also the factor that she sees everything as “win” or “lose” and admitting culpability is a “loss”, in her mind.
Like riding on a seesaw…in order to feel ‘up’ they have to bring you ‘down.’
This is exactly right, Wayne. Everything is a win or lose argument. Even things that aren’t arguments, become arguments—what kind of cereal to buy, where to put a potted plant, what clothes to pack for vacation, where to go for dinner, whether it’s the sun or the moon that shines at 12 noon. Every interaction is viewed as a win or a loss. It’s incredibly exhausting for Nons who just want to be loved and don’t want to fight anymore.
I think this is why these types take to the adversarial divorce process like ducks to water—they’ve been fighting over irrelevant nonsense to bolster their brittle egos for their entire lives. I believe they derive a buzz from conflict like an addict gets a high off a crack pipe. For many, conflict is simply how they engage with others. It’s their version of intimacy, sick as it is.
“her ability to hate you at bedtime, but love you in the morning” That was the roller coaster of my life. Kind of like the movie “Groundhog Day”. I’d wake up every morning, hoping that things had changed, that our life would be back to normal. And I’d go to bed every night grieving for the woman I had loved and lost. I was in perpetual mourning every day for the last 3.5 years of our relationship.
My NPD had a Masters in Psychology and had been married to a psychologist previously, so she was able to also speak from the position of a “learned authority”.
If I expressed anger about how she treated me, then I needed anger management therapy. Didn’t matter that the psychiatrist looked me right in the eye and said “You don’t need anger management therapy. You need marital therapy.”
If I expressed my loneliness because of her emotional and physical withdrawal from me, she insisted that the loneliness had nothing to do with her, but that I was missing something within myself, that I was defective.
If I asserted myself and said that I wasn’t going to endlessly cater to her, then I was being passive/aggressive.
If I expressed sadness at the state of our relationship, it was because I needed to see a doctor and get anti-depressants. She was actually visibly happy when I finally went to the doctor and got Valium to deal with the stress. It validated her claims that I was the sick one. I left 6 weeks later.
She absolutely refused to accept any responsibility for the problems in our relationship, until after I left. Even then, who knows if it was genuine? Really didn’t matter at that point, anyway.
Projection. It’s not just a room in the back of a theater.
Your ex is an example of how a little information can be a dangerous thing—or even an association with a professional. Question: Did she already have her Masters in Psych when she met her former husband or did she pursue it after they became involved?
I’ve noticed an interesting phenomenon in which some abusive personality-disordered individuals (APDIs) try to co-opt their partner’s career or some skill set. For example, an APDI woman marries a CPA. She takes a few business classes (doesn’t graduate, mind you nor does she get an actual job in the field), but now she’s the financial expert, not her husband. Or, an APDI marries an artist, decides she’s an artist, too, takes a design course (that she hates), gets an office job in a design shop, and appoints herself the authority on all aesthetic matters. Or, she reupholsters a chair and decides she’s an interior decorator.
I think this might be another control issue. Because they have to control everything and view all interactions as win or lose, you can’t know more than she does about anything otherwise you might have “control” over her. You might “win.”
I also wonder if it’s yet another developmental issue. Kind of like a teenager who’s going through an endless identity consolidation phase. For example, a teen hangs out with the art kids, and morphs into an “artist.” Then she hangs out with the jocks, and all of a sudden, she’s Sporty Spice. She hangs out with the garage band kids, and she’s a singer. She absolutely believes she is these things despite having no talent or interest in mastering the necessary skills.
APDIs only learn enough about your area of expertise to gain a superficial knowledge in order to pretend they’re experts. In reality, it’s just a bunch of posing and posturing. Most often, when these types discover that accounting, design, music, etc., take hard work, practice, and time and energy to master or to become a success, they lose interest pretty quickly, but some will still pretend to be these things despite never having had a job in their fantasy field.
Bottom line: Hanging out with a psychologist doesn’t make you a psychologist. Marrying an artist doesn’t make you an artist. I’ve been getting haircuts since I was 3-years old, but that doesn’t make me a stylist. I’ve been driving since I was 16, but that doesn’t make me a mechanic.
Just wondering.
Hi Dr. T,
No, she met him when she went into the psych program at the university where he’s a prof. (now chair of the dept.). Despite being divorced from him for 10 years, she still runs his life (they have shared custody of the kids).
The odd thing was that she was attracted to me in the first place. I’m an ordinary guy, not stupid by any stretch, and have a very well paying job (as well paying as her prof. ex), but no college or university degrees, though I never, ever felt intimidated by or had problems relating to her professional friends. But my female friends would describe me as a “man’s man, with a sensitive side”.
As it turns out, that’s what she was looking for after leaving her first husband – she wanted the type of torrid relationship that she didn’t have with her bookish, milquetoast university prof. I’ve often wondered what attracted her to him in the first place, and I suspect it’s because she was intent on having “perfect” children. He fit the profile, intelligence, community-standing and career-wise, so he became the DNA donor.
And what a ride I had until, like a 2 year old, her interest was suddenly diverted elsewhere. Suddenly, I was the show-piece, required to be and do all the things a loving, supportive husband does, but to not expect ANYTHING in return.
Dr. T., you said: “I’ve noticed an interesting phenomenon in which some abusive personality-disordered individuals (APDIs) try to co-opt their partner’s career or some skill set.”
My husband dealt with this issue with his ex wife. He’s an officer in the Army. She’s a high school dropout who later got a GED. She claimed that she had gotten accepted to the US Military Academy, yet she’s quite overweight and lacks the academic prowess and connections to get into West Point. When they were married, she used to tell my husband that she “knows how things work in the Army”. He would explain something to her and she would claim he was lying because she knew better. Later, she got a job based on the fact that she was an Army wife for a few years. People apparently believed that she was an expert, even though she’s really not.
Over a period of about 20 years, she’s attempted to go to college. Her attempts to graduate were always somehow overcome by events and she dropped out several times. Back in 2006, she sent my husband a letter that basically accused him of being mentally ill. She threw in a bunch of hateful stuff about me, as well (we have never met and I have spent a total of maybe 48 hours with my husband’s kids). After having ignored her for several years, I finally decided to respond to her. I have dual master’s degrees in social work and public health and I decided it was time someone told her that with her GED, she has no business “diagnosing” my husband or anyone else with mental problems.
Some time later, I ran across an article about her on the Internet. It was all about how the United Way had helped her get back on her feet after divorcing my husband, who had, according to that article, left her penniless. She had conveniently left out the fact that he was paying her alimony, generous child support for three kids (one of which wasn’t his), and had covered the cost of her move to another state. He was also paying the house note on the home she got in their divorce. Meanwhile, he was living on about $600 a month. But to read that article, he left her high and dry and the United Way was there to help… and now, apparently, she’s on their local board.
The article went on to report that my husband’s ex was back in college again, planning to earn her degree in liberal studies. After graduation, she was allegedly planning to go back to school to earn a PhD in education. These lofty educational goals would be achieved, despite her inability to finish high school, her very poor writing skills, and her many unsuccessful attempts to finish college… and despite the fact that she has two little kids at home with her current husband who is chronically under or unemployed. I had to laugh at the delusional thinking. I don’t think she has a clue how much effort graduate school requires.
On the other hand, I’m sure there’s a school out there somewhere that will work with her. She can be pretty convincing when she puts her mind to it. In any case, by the time she earns her doctorate, my husband’s extremely alienated daughters will be well into adulthood and hopefully the whole lot of them will be out of our lives. The youngest turns 18 this year.
Wow. First of all, the article above is spectacular. As to the comment above, my ex was a MASTER at put-downs such as this. I’m an editor. I was trying to get a freelance gig editing a novel for a writer who was self-published. I told her about it. She said, “I bet I could edit a manuscript. We should both do it and see who does better.” She has a social work degree.
I especially can relate to the last two paragraphs of this article, and ESPECIALLY the part about how “she claims to be the one who fought for the marriage” but really is the one who destroyed it. We’ve gone through a custody eval and co-parent counseling, and she always says the exact same thing. Now, we’ve been separated for over a year. She has severely limited my time with my children, and has made a wide array of accusations – attacking my parenting abilities (literally telling a custody evaluator that I’m incompetent), my morals, values, personal life, dating habits, activities I pursue in my personal time, everything and anything – and she thinks all of it justifies her actions – which also include hacking my email and stalking me all over the internet, peeping in my windows (seriously), having me followed.. the list goes on and on. I’m just a regular dude who’s never done anything, I work 3 jobs, bust my ass for my family, don’t do drugs, never been arrested, etc… We went through a 6-month custody evaluation, and the evaluator basically said she was alienating the kids from me and not encouraging a strong and healthy relationship between me and my kids, and awarded me more custody time. She’s incensed, and we’re going to court.
Fellas… when you know she’s nuts, stop having sex with her. Seriously. My ex tried to trap me with a pregnancy after I asked for a divorce. Now I have a 7-month-old daughter that I have to visit at day care because I’m not allowed to see her otherwise. I also love my children more than life. They are the best thing to ever happen to me, and I will do everything in my power to protect them from all this mess. But I can’t help but feel a little guilty for ignoring all the signs and bringing them into this mess that will surely never see an end.
Moral of the story – BE CAREFUL out there, guys. BE FREAKING CAREFUL. When you know, get the eff out. Because the longer you stay, the more bad things can and will happen to you and the people you love.
Dr Tara,
Referring to your line of thought…”I’ve noticed an interesting phenomenon in which some abusive personality-disordered individuals (APDIs) try to co-opt their partner’s career or some skill set”.. I have this emerging sense that some APDIs habitually engage in a form of “identity theft”. Because they have not formed their own personality or identity they borrow other peoples. A bit like a hermit crab enters an empty sea shell and then the shell becomes part of who they are. In a relationship the APDI wraps themselves in the cloak of their partner’s world, their skills, social status, income and the life style that comes with it. However, their sense of self is so brittle that it cannot withstand scrutiny or criticism of any kind.
Later, they do a sort of mental swap (by splitting and projecting) so that they get to keep the good stuff and you get the rubbish stuff they don’t want to own.
I am still bemused and puzzled as to how at the end of my 20 year marriage the APDI gets to keep my newer luxury sports car while I get to drive away in her small older hachback, she gets my kids, my money, my name and I am unemployed, temporarily homeless and estranged from my own family. The funny thing is that I am actually quite happy with this deal because I get what I really want..to get the heck out of this relationship and to have my life back again!!!! After being controlled for so long you can’t put a price on your own freedom.
Great article.
A comment to Devans – Im right there with ya. Im 15 months out and I still struggle with the things you described. Im also trying to get back to who I was before. Its a tough road.
That being said, ive experienced the dysfunctional dance described in the article many times. She would become easily offended by some neutral or benign event and lash out at me with a tirade of venom. Id explain what I meant, that it wasnt a slight against her. She would just become more enraged and the fight would escalate with her telling me that I thought she was stupid for thinking what she did.
I.e.
Her: Why did you buy chunky peanut butter?
Me: Did I? I must have grabbed the wrong one at the store.
Her: (sarcastically) Sure you did, you know I hate chunky peanut butter. How long have you known me? When have you ever seen me eat chunky peanut butter?
Me: Babe, I just grabbed the wrong one.
Her: (snottily) Umm I asked you a question and id like it answered. – When have you seen me eat chunky peanut butter?
Me: I just grabbed the wrong one, its just that simple. I dont have any alterior motives.
Her: (Snottily) Umm ok.. maybe you didnt hear me. Id like you to answer my question.
Me: I did answer your question. I know you dont like chunky peanut butter. I grabbed the wrong one. Its just that simple. Its not an attack on you. I dont have any alterior motives. Its just that simple.
Her: You must think im really stupid dont you? You think I cant see what little game youre playing? Youre so passive aggressive. You bought the wrong one on purpose because youre mad at me about somehting and this is your childish litte way of getting me back.
And it would just escalate from there. Id try and defend that I wasnt being passive aggressive. Shed continue with the condescending sarcasm and aggression, Id get frustrated and angry and then the revisionist history would kick in and I would be the one that verbally attacked her because she asked me about the peanut butter.
Man its good to be free.
Or, they just might argue that you “crumble” when things get tough…when you really are just standing up for yourself against her assaults. Not “strong” enough. Be a man, and take it…just like her father does. That is how I was supposed to react if I really loved her.
Yeah, it IS good to be out, even if the breakup did wipe me (and all that I believed) out. Maybe I was overdue for a re-boot. But maybe she needs a re-install.
Good article and interesting comments. Interestingly enough, one of my probably PDed mother’s favorite accusations against me was that I was “judgmental” Which I’m guessing is projection. The inconsistency in judgment was one of the most confusing aspects of growing up with a PDed parent. I never knew which way the judgments were going to go, just that I was going to be judged and probably more harshly than anyone else such as my brother.
And I think the utter lack of responsibility or ownership is telling. While I think I was pushed pretty hard towards the situation which resulted in my cutoff with my mother, brother & SIL, I know I could have handled things better and I took responsibility and ownership of my part in things. I’ve done that both with an apology to my brother/SIL & by going to therapy to look at how I handle anger, even justified anger.
Wayne, good observation on how everything’s a win/loss. Even things which have no blame or blame elsewhere. Long before I learned about PDs, I worked at a grocery store where I witnessed a mother explode at her daughter because the daughter had picked out an item which didn’t have a price tag. She was screaming at her and blaming her like she did it on purpose. When really, if it was anyone’s fault, it was the store’s employee’s fault for not pricing it. Even then, it might have been a malfunctioning price gun. Or maybe it was on, but fell off. Maybe no one was even to blame.
Now, based on my own experience, if outsiders intervene, it would be worse when they got home alone. So I didn’t want to directly challenge or confront the mother, but I did apologize to her on the store’s behalf for the item not having a price and let her know we would get the price as soon as we could, thanked her for waiting, etc. I don’t know if it worked, but I was hoping to take some of the heat off of the child and onto the store or even me. At least I got to go home at the end of my shift and didn’t have to live with her. So better to have her ire directed at me than the child. But she didn’t seem that angry with me, so I don’t know how effective that was. I still think about that incident sometimes and wonder about that girl.
Freedom, good observations on what can set the tirades off. I’ve been on the receiving end of many for truly bizarre reasons. One time, she was planning on having some left over sandwiches from a platter at a gathering. I knew from eating one previously, they had sandwich slime on them because they’d been sitting too long. I didn’t mention it at the time, I just quietly, without her knowing, threw it out. I didn’t know she planned to give it to people at the gathering. But once I found out she was planning to, I didn’t want anyone to get sick or for her to be embarrassed.
So I had to speak up and let her know the sandwiches were no longer good. I did so as gently as I could, “you may want to check the sandwiches, I had one yesterday and it tasted a little off”. I was a grown adult (pushing 30 at the time) and afraid to tell her. When I did, she started screaming at me, “what are we going to do, just throw them all out?!!!” “we’ll just waste food!!”, etc. My stepdad went to feed one to the dogs and even they wouldn’t eat them. My stepdad and brother joked and cajoled her until she was calm and stopped yelling. I never received an apology for being yelled at or thanks for letting her know before she had people over.
I can understand why her background made food waste so abhorrent to her. I can even understand the irrational reaction. The part I can’t understand is the “shoot the messenger” aspect of it. I was even worried that if I didn’t say anything and people noticed the sandwiches were off, I’d be blamed for not telling her. I had to go through a whole thought process. My first concern was that someone might get sick. Or that she might be embarrassed. I’d never want people to have bad food at my home. Both of those outweighed my fear of being the messenger.
Or the need to “blame” to begin with. The sandwich platter was purchased from a supermarket on a holiday where there’s a high volume of sales for such things. The supermarket may have made some of them the day before to keep up with demand. They were fine that night, but by the next day, they didn’t taste right. The gathering was an additional day later. The sandwiches had been sitting (refrigerated) for at least 3 days by that point, possibly 4. That’s no one’s “fault”, that’s what happens to food sometimes when it’s been stored awhile.
And I don’t understand the lack of apology for the yelling or the lack of a thank you. I can sometimes be irritable with people. But when I realize it, I apologize because it’s not right or fair to subject other people to it. And if I’d been hosting, I’d be relieved if someone pointed out a problem with food while I still had time to address it (my stepdad went on a bbq supply run). I would thank the person, not scream at him or her. I’d be grateful my guests didn’t get sick.
Excellent comments in this blog post.
As someone with an engineering background, I take a problem-solving approach to… solving problems. My Cluster B wife takes the witch-hunt approach to solving problems. Example:
First school day after the holiday, our 13-year old son can’t find his bus pass and student ID card 5 minutes before he has to leave. I give him some money for the bus, tell him to deal with the people at the school desk for a temporary ID and that he will need to find his pass and card when he comes home from school. Also, I tell him he needs to put them away in the same place every day.
He then makes the mistake of asking the Tantrum Queen if she has seen his pass and card.
“You’re a fucking idiot!” “Don’t fucking look at me like that!” “Your fucking breath stinks! Go brush your teeth!”
Now compare and contrast:
Last Sunday I took him to his indoor soccer game. Upon arrival, he announced that he had brought the wrong pair of soccer shoes. With 15 minutes till game time, we problem solve. Does the arena have any loaner shoes? No. So I tell him I’ll head home and get his shoes, and that he needs to be ready to put them on as soon as I get back. Problem solved. I still haven’t told him I’ll be charging him $3 for the gas I used and the time I spent to go get his shoes.
Present a problem to a Cluster B and you get disproportionate rage. Present a problem to a normal person and they find a solution.
Verbal, good points. Even the most minor situations become battlegrounds. I made the mistake of agreeing to go to a nail salon with my likely PDed mother during a trip for a family wedding. It was located in a fairly large shopping plaza neither of us were familiar with. Personally, if I’d been doing the calling, I would have asked what stores the salon was near for landmarks so we could find it. But my mother didn’t. Not necessarily an issue. You think we’d just pull over in the plaza and call the nail salon once it became clear we couldn’t find it. No, she continued to drive, agitated and upset that we were “lost”, circling around the plaza on busy roads while we tried to find our way, with her agitation increasing.
I go to call the nail salon to find out what stores they’re near. She screams at me to use her cell phone instead of mine because she’d dialed the number previously from the phone. Technically that would have saved me the few moments dialing 411 took, but it was canceled out because I had to cut the call to 411 short because I couldn’t hear the operator while she was yelling. And then redial from my phone. Maybe she thought she was saving me money? I have no clue. I learned growing up not to question the rages because it only makes it worse. But when I finally got through to the nail salon, they told me what stores they were near and they were popular, easily reocgnizable stores. Which we found right away once we found the way back to the plaza. It still perplexed me because it would have been simple enough to just pull over in the plaza and make the call instead of all the extra and utterly unnecessary screaming and drama over it. I can’t see the point in driving farther away from the area and getting agitated about it. Especially when the information to find the way was so easy (making the call). The level of distress would be more appropriate for out of gas and water in the middle of the desert with vultures circling.
Another time, my stepdad accidentally opened his beach chair on her foot and even though he apologized and moved it as soon as he could, she was still cursing him out like he did it on purpose. The look from his daughters was one of shock & surprise. It was one of the few times I ever saw people shocked or bewildered by her behavior.
oops meant to say redial from her phone. It also took longer from me to dial from her phone as I had to acquaint myself with it. The irony is in yelling at me for not dialing from her phone, she ended up making it take longer than it would have if I’d just dialed 411.
“my stepdad accidentally opened his beach chair on her foot and even though he apologized and moved it as soon as he could, she was still cursing him out like he did it on purpose.”
That seems to be a recurring theme with them. At least it was with mine. Disporportionate rage and freaking out over things that are genuine accidents. Like everyting was on purpose just to stick it to her.
What really began do drive me a little batty was trying to understand her thought processes on things like that.
I began to wonder – If she sees purposeful hostility in the small daily annoyances I do, and sees them as things I do to her on purpose in a passive aggressive way, maybe *I* should read more hostility into the annoying things she does to me. Maybe when she ‘accidentally’ dropped my ceramic fish and broke it, she did it on purpose and is simply doing to me what she wrongly *thinks* im doing to her.
If she assumes malicious intent on the things I do, then maybe she is being malicious back to me and im just shrugging it off as accidents or giving her the benefit of the doubt.
It was thoughts like that that scared me that I was going down a slippery slope into her madness. That one day I wouldnt give people the benefit of the doubt, that I would be paranoid like that, that I would automatically assume malicious intent. I didnt want to be like that.
I belive you’re right. To quote my ex who didn’t like me going no contact:
“Stop punishing me for something I didn’t do, ok?”
Punishment? Eh?
First off, I agree with david: they did not ask for either thegenes or the abuse that caused them to be as they are. And, that is truly tragic, as I think many of us can see that, absent the disorder, some are really rmearkably capable and intersting and even, sometimes , loving individuals.
That said, I finally had a light bulb moment a few years ago, after tellign my wife, that she had been out 62% of all nights the previous year until aftet 1 in the morning( she was having a series of affairs, but I was unaware((smart of me, eh?)) ).
She simply looked at me with rage and told me that ” of course I get more time off from the kids than you. I have more friends(affair parnters, apparently) and you have few(right, I was hom,e taking care of the kids so many nights alone that they stopped asking me to meet).
In any case it was then that i realized she was sincere. Despite graduating near the top of her class in law school, she honestly could not understand that she was not entitled to more than others.
I realized that if i was in front of a judge or jury, I could score points and win my arguments in their eyes. But, her fundamental frame of reference was just so differnet, her basic assumption being that, of course, everyone agreed she was entitled to more, that it was no use trying to win an argument.
Another personality disordered person I was dealing with had, essentially, the same problem. She would complain that her successful boyfriend, a man that she would tell others she was not attracted to and wanted to break up with, would not commit to marry her so he could provide her with health insurance and put down the downpayment on a house she desired.
You could point out to her that , at her age, she should have had the resources to contribute equally to the house and she should have been able to hold employment long enough to have insurance. And, you could point out the absurdity of expecting a guy to marry her whe she had broken up with him , repeatedly and admitted to having no attraction for him.
But, it would not make sense to her. She beleive she is entitled to someone buying her a house and providing insurance. Her entire frame of reference is skewed. Why should she have to work like other people to get these things.
I have found that the only way to deal with people like this ist o take your ball and go home. Don’t even try, as the sky in their world is a differnet color.
My exgf put it quite succinctly, “It’s diffferent when I do it.”
Married still for almost 36 years. We’re Mike and Maggie. O.K., now how about some twists, turns, additions and a lot of age plus HCP ongoing for nearly 20 years, menopausal symptoms for the last 5 years, may have just started to enter hit and miss menstrual periods and (breathe) causing skin irritations all over? And OMG, she has a hereditary skin disorder called Hailey-Hailey (sp?), which takes the menopausal skin irritations to a new level and could probably give it a third “Hailey” as its tag. Those are just some of the discerning facts in our case. Believe it or not, we are still building to super-critical warrior crescendos no human has ever witnessed before.
I am a romantic, but certainly not helpless, which you may decipher as you read. My sister, my rock, is a Buddhist priest and is used by both Maggie and myself for an occasional fresh slap to help us see our ways a little brighter and maybe better. Although Maggie can only use what she thinks she is supposed to have grasped in a twisted way against me, which seems in line with other HCP’s. I admit I am not innocent of some of the things I am stating my wife does. I do, but I try to fix what I can with myself. Where I sometimes fail (well short of calling myself a failure), is posturing and getting into old, bad habits of normal communication with Maggie. I’ve been looking for an adult conversation with her for a good part of 20 years. I think you noted that the article points out this conversation will probably never happen. Thanks for some closure there.
I’ll also add I just found your article above and am somewhat relieved to find this brotherhood or sanctuary as it seems some have find warm and fuzzy. Thank you, as I weep.
One of the glaring differences between Maggie and I (other than the obvious – she is not bald, lol) is that she reads books to find words she can use and believes fit my behavior as verbal abuser, while I see the antics, speak the words I see in her behavior, and then find books to see if my beliefs fit the antics. Maggie has never taken any time to evaluate her inner self, nor do I see her ever taking the chance. From earlier life drug and alcohol use, I have been through several self evaluation and retrospective programs to assist in background knowledge and I read everything worth its weight in my attempts to keep this marriage together for US. We have children and grandchildren we are both in love with, but I have come to understand that if the worst gets worster!, all systems will fail. My biggest hurdle is getting over the type and amount of love I have for Maggie. As I said, I am a romantic and I believe in marriage promises or vows. The pull and the push are becoming unimaginable for me. For her it appears that the pull and the push are uncontrollable or unmanageable. I hope I can continue to write. This helps. Thanks again.
There is so much more to our lives than battling the ones you are supposed to love and respect.
This is a very well written article that goes a long way to helping us poor blokes make sense of the senseless. I particularly like the description of how the primitive mind’s self-serving judgements are always right. Well they would have to be because only a more developed person has the capacity for reflection of one’s own and other people’s thoughts, feelings and behaviour because this might involve uncertainty, remorse and heaven-forbid… change or personal growth.
I think that psychologists call this ability to reflect on our own thinking metacognition and really, when you examine what people say and how they behave you may come to the conclusion, as I did, that metacognition was just waaaay beyond some people’s capability. Here’s a clue: if they can never admit to being wrong or even partially responsible for some of the problems in your relationship they probably can’t think about thought.
For some people, if they think a thought, then it must be true. I think this is known as “psychic equivalence”. At any rate, you can be sure that it is a very primitive form of thinking because it is very inflexible and rigid. No way can you get these people to change or to see things from another point of view – especially not from your point of view. Hence no empathy is possible. If you need understanding you will need to find it somewhere else.
All I have to add is that this article nails it. It’s spot on and explains why having a discussion with a high conflict individual always make you feel like you’re traped in quicksand. It has helped me understand why I feel so frustrated, angry and hurt by arguing with some people.
It’s, as the authtor writes, impossible to reach ANY understanding at all and it’s best to just leave it and save your energy for something better and constructive.