Kev has been a regular participant on Shrink4Men for approximately 18 months during which time he’s shared his healing process with honesty, courage and humor. Through his comments and interactions with others on Shrink4Men, he has also supported the men an women who come here and serves as an example that you can get your life back after an abusive relationship ends.
Since Kev isn’t technically a “professional” (e.g., a psychologist, attorney or mediator), he will be writing under a nom de plume. I strongly recommend that everyone with an abusive ex use a screen name when sharing their experiences online. As most of you know, these types of individuals are prone to cyber-stalking/cyber-harassment and have an appetite for fresh conflict in which they can portray themselves as victims. My advice is not to give it to them.
Dr Tara J. Palmatier: Many people who become involved with an abusive partner have a history of similar relationships. Do you fall into this category? If not, when did you first suspect something wasn’t quite right with your ex?
Kev: It’s interesting . . . because up until recently, I wouldn’t have cast my previous relationships as abusive. And, to be fair, none of them were as over the top as the most recent one. In retrospect, however, and in trying to figure out what happened with the past relationship, I see a pattern, yes. I think, if anything, I was in denial. I always either figured difficulties were the nature of the beast when it came to relationships or I wasn’t trying hard enough. I would then try even harder (and put up with even more) in each successive relationship, thus opening myself up to more abuse. The piece you linked to by Kameron Kiggins recently Truth, Damned Truth and Statistics, was very accurate in describing my relationship history.
As for suspecting something wasn’t quite right with my ex, there were indicators very early on. Unfortunately, I chose to ignore them. Within the first few dates, she called me in tears one night explaining that she “wasn’t very good at relationships.” I wish I’d listened. After that, everything was my fault. On one of our early dates (the night I told her I loved her), she’d double-booked herself and had a guy waiting for her on the porch when we got back to her place (he’d been there for hours, according to her housemates, waiting for their date). As they say, “Awkward!”
Another time, as I was telling her about my day, she had a meltdown and accused me of lying about everything. I had no idea what to do with this. I wish I’d paid attention. The indicators are there. They’re always there. It’s getting ourselves to the point of seeing them as a pattern, rather than isolated incidents that’s the problem.
Dr Tara J. Palmatier: When did you realize you couldn’t make the relationship work and needed to get out?
Kev: This is a funny thing, really, because I never had that realization. After the 800th or so meltdown on her part and her breaking up with me yet again, I finally got to the point where, in my effort to please her and show her how much I loved her, I told her that the only thing left that I had to give her was her freedom. Naturally, later on, I found out that this wasn’t the “correct” answer she’d been expecting, but I’d been so beaten down at this point, that I had nothing left to offer.
I’m not sure if this was a disguised survival instinct on my part or me admitting defeat and trying to ascertain, yet again, what it was that she actually wanted and, as usual, getting it wrong! I should add that with each meltdown, with each argument, with each tantrum and with each time she broke up with me, I could feel my love die a little. I think I’d reached the point where the well had finally run dry. As I write in one of my pieces for you, the sudden flood of relief when it was over was incredible. But, accompanying that was the guilt over feeling relief.
Dr Tara J. Palmatier: What’s been the most difficult aspect of the healing and letting go process?
Kev: Coming to terms with the fact that I’m no longer who I was. Accepting the fact that this happened and it has profoundly changed me. I suffer from PTSD. I’ve wrestled with suicide. I have a very difficult time trusting the motives of others. I want to believe that there are good people out there, yet I don’t entirely trust my own judgment to be able to discern who they are.
Finding resources online for men who’ve been through this is a double-edged sword. It’s incredibly helpful to know that there are others who’ve been there. The flipside of that is, however, “Christ, you mean there’s more of her out there?!” Another thing that’s been difficult is accepting that not only can men be victimized in this manner, but the fact that practically no resources exist for us and nobody believes us.
I used to subscribe to all of the standard beliefs about this – men are always the aggressors/women are always the victims, etc. Now, I see that such blind acceptance leads to the ability for us to fall prey to some pretty evil people. Finally, the other thing that’s been difficult for me to accept is what I call the notion of “now I walk with a limp.” I am changed. I have scars. I will always carry this with me. But at the end of the day, each day, I remind myself – “I’m still standing. I’m still here.”
Also, I’m impatient. I did 18 months of therapy. I’ve been just about two years no contact at this point. Yet I still feel like crap a lot of the time. Only in looking backwards, do I realize how far I’ve come. I know, however, there’s still a ways to go. I’d just like my inner child to stop asking, “Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?”
Dr Tara J. Palmatier: What advice would you give to someone who’s in the early stages of realizing that his relationship is hazardous to his health?
Kev: Get out. Okay, seriously, yes, that’s the end goal. But the early stages are tricky, so I would say don’t make the same mistakes that I and countless others have made. Listen to that little voice inside of you that says “something’s wrong.” I didn’t. If you remember things differently than she does, no matter how insistent she’s being, if you start defending her actions and taking the blame on yourself (e.g., “She’s right! She’s calling me on my stuff, and I need to learn to be a better person! I really need to learn how to not provoke her into yelling at me/hitting me/breaking stuff/etc.”), these are not good signs.
Over the years, I’ve known a number of women who’ve been with abusive boyfriends and the one thing I always hated was when I’d hear them say “But I looooooooooove him!” If you find yourself thinking “But I looooooooooove her!” then it’s time for a reality check. Record an argument or two. You can give up playing it back for her in hopes of her suddenly having an epiphany about her actions (in fact, she’ll probably claim that you recording it is somehow abusive).
Instead, transcribe the argument and plug it into the website xtranormal and make a movie out of it. Watch the movie. Does it seem like you’re the bad guy? Play the movie for friends if you’re not sure. Re-establish ties with friends and family, even if you have to do it secretly. Have them help you get out. Finally, be prepared to out-crazy her, if you have to.
To clarify: There’s an old adage about going to prison that, on your first day there, you should commit some random act of violence lest you be judged weak and fair game. I am by no means advocating becoming violent with your partner. That is not a solution (no matter how much you may be fantasizing about it at this point). It only lets her win, as she calls in the police, points her finger at you and yells, “See! See! See what a horrible person he is?!” No.
What I’m talking about is being firm and holding fast to your boundaries. She will squirm. She will wiggle. She will call you every name in the book and provoke you any way she can (go re-watch The Exorcist). Do not let her.
In my case, the final arguments were about her getting her stuff out of my apartment. I gave her a deadline and as much as she tried to wriggle out of it (and it was a very reasonable deadline), I held fast. I was called “controlling” and “abusive” and she smeared me to everyone she could, but I held firm. She got her stuff out with 2 hours and 15 minutes to spare and I haven’t seen or heard from her since. Good riddance.
Be prepared for turbulence. Once she knows the jig is up, she will fight you tooth and nail and do everything she can to punish you. It’s only punishment if you let it be so. This is a matter of saving your own life. It’s more than worth the effort.
Want to Say Goodbye to Crazy? Buy it HERE.
Shrink4Men Coaching and Consulting Services:
Dr Tara J. Palmatier provides confidential, fee-for-service, consultation/coaching services to help both men and women work through their relationship issues via telephone and/or Skype chat. Her practice combines practical advice, support, reality testing and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Shrink4Men Services page for professional inquiries.
arneg says
The patterns are all seeming so familiar.
My problem was that I grew up of a fairly decent household except that my parents did not teach their kids about dysfunctional people. In our home we rallied the troops and banded together to support one of us who was having difficulties.
So … early in my relationship when some of the crazy started hanging out – my role as programmed by my family was to help out and compensate. I didn’t realize until a long time later [familial estrangement and all that other stuff] that things were way out of whack. Similar to the poor antelope that doesn’t know that struggling gets them deeper into the quicksand.
10 Years ago I googled what I thought was me going crazy and found various sites describing BPD and realized that I was the sane one. I took 3 years without a guide to extract and get the final divorce. [the previous post on how to prepare and divorce the bpd spouse is very good in terms of a tool I sure could have used]
Today I’m in a loving and healthy relationship with a great woman and 2 great kids. My message to those of you out there wondering how and if they should get out…. There is a life out there waiting for you … and it is wonderful.
Kev. says
Hi Arneg…
It’s interesting, because I had to learn about “dysfunctional” the hard way, too. I think one of the more unfortunate things in the world is that for the most part, we aren’t taught that dysfunction exists on this level. I’m also fond of quoting the line from Aliens, “My mommy always said there were no monsters – no real ones – but there are.”
On a level, maybe it’s a good sign that most people don’t have to deal with this, and don’t realize it exists. On the other hand, I’ve become of the opinion that it is something that truly must be experienced to be understood and believed. Maybe this website, and our stories, can at least start to provide warnings to people that dysfunction does exist, and you can survive it. I know that prior to this relationship, I’d figured Borderline Personality Disorder was perhaps some low-level anxiety around committing. Now I know that tornados are more than just a slight breeze, too.
Congrats on your healthy relationship! I’m still single, and taking some downtime, but I’m starting to make some tentative steps towards changing that.
Now I know what to watch out for. 🙂
exscapegoat says
Thanks for sharing what you went through. I grew up with a likely NPD mother. Even before I could name it, I knew something was off. I think public awareness of personality disorders is extremely important. People don’t know unless they’ve been through it and there’s a lot of pressure on those involved in various relationships (romantic, family) not to “abandon” the Cluster B. Which completely overlooks the abuse and damage to the non Cluster B.
Blog entries like yours will help educate people about Personality Disorders. Thanks for taking the time to write this.
Kev. says
thanks…. I love your screen name, btw.
junkyardsaint says
I am SO happy and relieved to have found this page – and this article – for the first time in my adult life I feel like I’m not loosing my mind, I have had an epiphany of sorts and it’s thanks in no small part to this blog and this article. I look forward to everything that’s upcoming!
I just broke up with my girlfriend of one year and it was an abusive, very abusive relationship – it was NOT my first in fact winding up with an abusive girlfriend is a pattern and something I have subconciously sought out (I guess) or at least that’s the only way I can explain how or why it would repeatedly happen this way for me. I also have an older brother who is verbally abusive, and everytime I experience a break up with one of these sick woman he chimes in to take their “side” without knowing anything about my relationships and really putting effort into putting me down and making me feel like I am making all the mistakes, causing all the problems. For the first time ever I can see my relationships for what they really are I have been attracted to narcisistic abusive women that blame me for everything that’s wrong – just as my family used to when I was a child (and my brother does to this day) – it’s pretty clear to me now in hindsight that I’ve had a lifetime of abuse and neglect – I was abandoned by my parents and family – in fact I left home at 13 years of age – and somehow – for some reason – I must be repeating this “abandonment” thing with every single relationship I’ve had because I can’t imagine how I could possibly wind up with these women that are so identical – I am always trying my damndest to please them, I would walk on water for any of them if I could – but each time it becomes obvious that I’m nothing in their eyes – and all the promises of commitment and love were ploys used to manipulate me – My ex has recently been trying to get me back into the relationship after our recent break up – but for once I’m calling her on her stuff, have moved into my own place, and have been seeking professional help – I talk to a counselor at a local clinic but I’m also looking for therapy because I want to work on this – I want to discover what it is I need to do stop the pattern of abuse – this most recent relationship was the first one in over ten years I abstained from all relationships for a long time thinking that the more time I gave it the less likely it would happen again – and ten years later “boom” the first woman I “fall in love” with after all this time is almost an exact replica of my ex wife only better looking. Your article gives me hope – and this blog is my lifeline to the human race – for the first time in I don’t know how long I feel like maybe it’s NOT all my fault and by leaving this relationship I AM doing the right thing. The empowerment I get from this experience is impossible to describe – all I can say is THANK YOU so very much!!! I may get healthy one day too!!!!
25years says
Great insight Kev. Like arneg, I see those same patterns as I think about the year that I dated my wife before I was locked up and she threw away the key.
As I reflect on what drew me to her, I am able to pinpoint it to victimhood. She was already an accomplished and professional victim when I met her. I can remember distinctly the stories she told of her horrible childhood and her terrible teenage years. She had lived a life rought with peril,physical and sexual abuse, death of close family members, and all that happening before the age of one.(sarcasm intended)
I love to be of service to other people. I like to be “the nice guy”. I did not see it coming. I thought that I could save her. I remember writing songs for her. Songs about that poor, lost little girl that she had been. Her stories broke my heart! In reality, I really had fallen in love with a story, not with a woman. I was mistaken in the fact that I could save, help and serve that innocent girl from the stories. I thought that I would save her and we would live happily ever after.
Be aware of the victims. I’ve spent over 25 years trying to save one. That hasn’t left me much time for others, including myself.
Once again, kudos Kev, kudos Dr. Tara. Thanks for the wisdom.
Kev. says
Thanks, 25years.
I, too, thought I could save her (and others before her). Ultimately, you can’t. You can’t love someone better. They need to do the work themselves.
For a long time, my self-worth was wrapped up in “if I can just save her, she’ll see how great I am.” This is not a way to operate. And, as you’ve pointed out, you’ve fallen in love with the story. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that she found new and ever-increasing ways to be “victimized” over the years, too.
Take some time for yourself, too, as you can.
You don’t need me to tell you how vital and crucial that is.
TheGirlInside says
Kev:
Congratulations!! I’m very excited about your interview and getting to read more of your ‘official’ posts! Doing a little happy dance here!
I had been thinking about the abusive women we read about on this site, and as much as I want to believe all people are created good (in G*d’s image ‘n’ all that) but for life’s circumstances, have concluded that there must be an element of evil in HCP types…as they seem to all lack any sort of conscience. No remorse, no guilt, no [sincere] apology.
I wonder if there is a biological component to this ‘lack of conscience.’–some underdeveloped part of the amygdala, for example.
Also, especially in NPD (from my non-clinical perspective), it seems an NPD absolutely CANNOT see others as being on the same ‘level’ as her…every human being they interact with is either above them (police officers, supervisors at work, authority figures in public – with whom they act fakely obsequious), or beneath them (spouse, subordinate at work, bartender, etc. – with whom they treat with utter contempt); there is none ‘equal’ to them in their minds.
***
Seems to me (from reading, not so much from experience) that the kicker is…to stop giving a dam*…meaning, stop caring so much about her tirades / crying jags, and see them for what they are: manipulation and an attempt to keep her possession (you) in its place (in the relationship)…nothing more. I’m with Kev as per: stand your ground and enforce your boundaries, as you have advised. When you worry that something you say / do / don’t say / don’t do will upset her (in way #369 for example), ask yourself, “So what?” So what if she cries in a ball on the floor? So what if she takes off driving down the road? So what if she makes good on her threat to leave and never ‘grace’ me with her presence again (phew!)? So the F what?
When she is going off all crazy like on you, think to yourself, “Bull.” You may be surprised what a little tough love (even if expressed only to one’s self), can do to build up your strength.
Signing off with my usual God Bless and a sincere Thank you!!
TGI
Kev. says
Hi TGI…
I know there’s been some research on “what’s going on in the Borderline brain” (see, for instance, this: http://psychcentral.com/news/2009/09/04/brain-scans-clarify-borderline-personality-disorder/8184.html )
It’s fascinating stuff. My background is in Philosophy of Mind, and I’m always interested when someone does this sort of research. Ultimately (from my standpoint), it’s difficult to tell if this is a brain problem or a mind problem or both. To give you an idea (philosophically) from my own research, the brain can certainly affect the mind, however the mind can also affect the brain (for example, the Placebo Effect).
So is BPD a brain problem? I’m not sure, but I’d love to see more research on it. I’ve also seen (and I’m sure this is a little controversial, and again, “I don’t know”) some research that tries to tie BPD in on the autism spectrum. This, too, interests me, in that my ex did have autism in her family.
TheGirlInside says
Hi Kev:
i read the article…that is fascinating. It ended with a statistic of 10% dying by suicide. I wonder if (1) what %-age of those suicides were meant as merely manipulative attempts and (2) if anyone researched how many of them kill their SOs, either directly or by slowly killing them day by day, one piece of their soul at a time. (i.e. how many BPDs actually cause others to commit suicide?). My empathy for abusive people is pretty much zero.
Autism is an interesting link. Being interested in pscyhology myself, it seems that autism and downs syndrome are on opposite ends of a spectrum. People with autism are very ordered, analytical, good at math and ‘solid’ concepts, but who need structure in order to survive. They are severely lacking an emotional understanding / ability to connect with others on an emotional level.
Those with down’s syndrome have a very difficult time with academic skills, seeming to only be able to get to a certain level of learning. However, they seem to have a heightened sensitivity to and understanding of others’ emotions, and an innate ability to soothe others. They are very giving and loving and easily pleased.
Makes me wonder, if we could get to what causes one ailment, could that be the link to cure them both?
25years says
The following is an article that I am struggling with. It seems that there are two camps on the subject of supporting a Cluster B. I’d like to get input because I feel that it has to do with the above article by Kev and Dr. Tara. Is the following BS or not BS? Thanks in advance. 25years.
Removed for possible copyright infringement.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
Hi 25years,
Please post the link to the article or summarize the main points.
Thanks,
Dr Tara
25years says
http://www.baptistonline.org/health/health_library/bhv3374f.asp – Cached – Similar
I apologize.
25years says
BTW- I love the picture!
Kev. says
Hi 25years…
I just read through the article, and I think there’s some practical stuff in there, and I think there’s, honestly, a lot of wishful thinking.
One thing I couldn’t help but notice is that the “how to take care of yourself section” is radically shorter than the other section. It’s also last. There seems to be a subliminal thing going on here (for me, anyway), that not only are you less important, your own needs do not come first.
Additionally, too, I don’t find much of this advice to be very practical in the realities of the situations, or at least as they would have applied to my own former relationship. I did everything I could humanly do to “lower the stress of my loved one” to the point of cutting off my friends and family so as not to stress her with the thoughts that I might be sleeping with members of either group (really!), which kind of negates the ability for one to “schedule me time” or attending a support group as suggested in the second half. Additionally, while I’m by no means advocating deliberately causing a stress-inducing environment, allowing an abusive person to define and dictate what such an environment is (and how “you’re causing it,” and not them), it just opens the entire relationship into too much one-sided abuse.
The article also seems to pre-suppose that the person in question acknowledges and is willing to admit that they have a problem, which my ex (and most BPD’s and NPD’s, to my understanding) are unable to do. The problem is always us, and not them, which again, gives them too much power over dictating what a “stressful environment” is.
For example…my ex described me as “thriving on drama” (hello, projection), because I would deliberately push her buttons by not going to the store to pick something up, by going to the store to pick something up, by texting her to tell her I love her (I was “controlling” and “checking up on her”), by not texting her (I was ignoring her, and cheating on her), by opening the door for her, by not opening the door for her. Pick your own double-binds. How can one make things less stressful, when what constitutes “stressful” changes on an hourly basis?
I’m sorry that people suffer from mental illness, personality disorders, etc. But that does NOT give them license to dictate my life as a human being. It’s akin to a drowning person trying to stand on top of a rescuer to make sure they keep their own head above water.
I’ve run into other things from NAMI before, and I can’t say I’ve been overly impressed. I’m happy that they’re out there helping people to cope with their problems, but they don’t seem to address the problems generated by Cluster B’s nor the harmful effects they have on others.
I’m just a layperson. But I’m also now of the opinion that “illness” doesn’t excuse abusive behavior, any more than it excuses the actions of Jeffrey Dahmer. It might explain a few things, but it doesn’t give anyone a free pass.
I’m all for “in sickness and in health” but if their sickness is affecting *my* health, and there is no reciprocation, then it isn’t a relationship of true equals. “In sickness and in health” does not give someone license to turn their partner into the eternal punching bag.
Ultimately, we all know (or will quickly find) our limits in these situations. One can make as many heroic gestures as one wants, but as the article says: “Decide how much support and care you are realistically able to provide” and “[You cant] Make your loved one be different.”
My two cents, as a non-expert. Your mileage may vary. 🙂
robesse says
Kev,
The link to the article is not working for me but what you are saying makes sense. That and the post from Girlinside. I can’t fix her, only she can. And only if she believes she is broken.
I was hoping to post to the forum but my account is still pending. Without going into it too much, I found this site about 3 weeks ago and as soon as the light went on, I got off the roller coaster. We have been together 5 years, married 3.
The W and I are at this odd “stand-off” where she is sullen and irritable. It’s been like this for about 2 weeks now. She makes the occasional jab at me or does these really wierd “attempts” at communication or contact. (Like out of the blue, literally dropping herself on the couch next to me at her sister’s house while I am watching TV waiting for a birthday party to get underway. Really almost in my lap while having some very agressive body language and just staring daggers at me. I look back, pat her on the leg and say “Hi.” She is frozen and silent like a cat stalking a bird. She waits a bit then jumps up and says to the air “Oh well, I tried.”)
So I am not reacting, practicing detachment, reaching out to old friends and focusing on me. I will make necessary conversation but if it turns into an attack or other headf$#@, I go mute and/or leave the scene.
So what now? Do I avoid conversation? I start to feel like maybe I am the one who is giving her the silent treatment. (But then I just need to read my notes.) This used to end when I’d say something like, “Let’s not go on like this'” or “Can we make up?” bring home flowers, a card or make some other overture to “make up” for something that I didn’t do. I haven’t done that this time and I won’t. So I don’t know what comes next. I am in uncharted territory.
robesse says
Well, here we go. After a telephone call asking if I can work from home because the W’s father needs to go to the hospital and the W does not want her sister to have to go alone and I say (honestly) that I really can’t work from home today. I get this text message.
“Don’t know how much longer I will tolerate ur coldness and indifference before a change happens. Just make sure its what you want before its too late. Just saying!”
Kev. says
Hi Robesse,
It sounds like this could be the beginning of the end, if you want it to be. Understand, that the only thing waiting for you if you stick around and/or go back is going to be more of the same treatment you’ve received over the years.
Stand firm. Hold your ground. Maintain your boundaries. The reason I recommend watching The Exorcist is because it has the potential to become much like the scene where the priests are provoked over and over again, by Regan.
I don’t know what your living situation is, in terms of home ownership, or lease, but you may want to start planning the exit. Natalie Malonis’s post a few days ago, https://shrink4men.com/2010/10/27/leaving-an-abusive-wife-pre-divorce-checklist/ is a good place to start.
Good luck. This is a delicate time. But you can get out. Stand firm. Be strong.
25years says
Thanks for the insight Kev.It is the support that I needed.
exscapegoat says
Kev’s already covered a lot of points that I would make. The most important that it’s for mental illness in general, not Cluster B. I have a neighbor who I think may be schizophrenic. She’ll be ok for awhile, but then she starts to do things like throw garbage out our front door and yell at passersby. She lashes out at anyone who’s around, unlike the Cluster Bs who zero in on specific people, be it their SO or children. Both of my parents were active alcoholics until I was in my 20s. My dad would lash out at anyone who crossed his path when drunk.
Have experienced both the general lashing out (wrong place, wrong time) and the specific targeting Cluster Bs favor, I say the specific targeting is much worse. If you see someone behaving that way to everyone, you know it’s not you. But if you’re specifically targeted, you spend a lot of time and energy wondering what you’re doing wrong. And since other people don’t experience the Cluster B’s wrath to the extent you do, people sometimes don’t believe you. This does a huge amount of emotional harm to the target. If my Cluster A neighbor rips up my mail and attempts to charge my door, while I need to keep myself safe, it’s nothing personal. When my Cluster B mother would start in on me, it was very personal. She knew what buttons to push and would do so deliberately to get a reaction from me. Anger, tears, as long as she got a reaction, she didn’t care, it fed her supply.
robesse says
Thanks E! I just experienced this a few days ago and it’s not at all uncommon. I asked the W if she had talked to her sister about taking our daughter over to play with her cousin while I go to work for a few hours. (About noon on a Saturday. Which I needed to do because I picked up our daughter from preschool one day earlier in the week because the W “was in no state of mind” to care for her. And, no the W does not work.)
– W pulls sheets over her head when I come to talk to her. (Yes, she is still in bed.)
– I ask about our daughter going to her sister’s house.
– W mumbles.
– R: “I’m sorry, whats that?”
– W repeats herself loud angry brow furrowed. “**I don’t know I haven’t talked to her.!!!***”
R: – “I would call her but I don’t have her number.”
W: “Will you relax?!!! God!!! Chill out already!!! *I’ll* communicate with her!”
Soon after I hear W on the phone with sister. She is on speaker. Sister asks W to repeat herself several times because she can’t hear her. W doesn’t yell at sister, she just repeats herself like a normal person.
The W *never*and I do mean *never* repeats herself without volume and anger. When the W is particularly foul she includes a “What?! Are you deaf?” I swear she mumbles, turns her head or walks away talking just so I have to ask her to repeat herself.
I knew the above was messed up but after reading this I am realizing how abusive it is that she will turn right around and have all the patience in the world for someone else. Its crazy-making. And sends the message that *I* am the problem not the behavior.
It also lays to rest the W’s argument that she is “just tempermental by nature.” Maybe, but its a temperment that she has honed to a fine point and wields precisely to injure just so. (It’s like the torturer’s “art”: inflict pain and discomfort without killing or inducing unconsiousness.)
And as I always have to include in my recollections, my 3 ½ year old daughter is right there as this is all going on. I am realizing how wrong that is. How terribly wrong. How damaging to my daughter and my relationship with my daughter. (Thanks for your other posts, E!)
What is *really* getting to me after reading this is that the W will do almost this *same* thing with our child. Impatient with her (and I don’t mean being nice about it, but raising her voice and saying things like “you are making Mommy angry” “oh my god you are so frustrating” “this is so ridiculous”) and then the W will be as patient as saint with someone else on the phone. Even telling whoever she is talking with that our daughter is being naughty and frustrating her. The emotional abuse is already starting in on our child. God, I am glad I found this blog now instead of years from now.
Henry Hoover says
Kev. You were spot on regarding the “But I Loooooooooooooov Her” phenomena.
The only thing I hate worse than hearing it, is the fact that I said the same thing myself.
I honestly don’t remember saying this, but my sister assures me I did, and I have no reason to doubt her (and good reason to doubt my memory of justifying why I stayed in such a horrible relationship for such a long period of time).
exscapegoat says
I think having it repeated by the Cluster B’s flying monkeys ranks up there with those 2! 🙂 I got a lot of “but your moootherrr loooves youuuu verrry much from family members. It caused trouble in one family relationship which was ultimately resolved and has caused an estrangement/rift between my brother and sister-in-law. I love her too, but she can’t be around me if she’s going to act the way she does. I won’t accept emotional abuse, even if someone gave birth to me! 🙂
gooberzzz says
I have to say better 18-months than 18-years as many men on here report about much longer and more tenuous relationships. Thank you for sharing your experience. I think these traits also apply to not just significant others, but also, friends, co-workers and family that have these disorders.
I have had many encounters with BPD women (and NPD men) to know that this is a real disorder, and they all echo the same behavioral patterns. Too many to go into detail about here. I can certainly relate to the PTSD aspect of what you shared.
The more I learn about this disorder(s) and the experiences that I and others have had, it really becomes nauseum to a point, but what it has done is teach me to spot it instantly when I meet new people, and act accordingly.
Thank you Dr. T for continuing to make articles like this available. Keep it up, the more you publish, the more people will stumble upon this valuable resource.
Kev. says
Gooberzzz:
My heart goes out to you, and my hat goes off to you. I was (literally) almost dead at the end of it. I don’t know how you or others last that long. You are true heroes to me.
never again says
Kev, congrats on becoming a contributor.
This might be a bit long, but I have to challenge you on your statement about “because I loooooove her”.
I was talking about this sort of thing with a friend the other night. Her mother died of cancer when she was 18, and her father, whom she always thought truly loved her mother, remarried again within 2 years. She (and much of the family) thought this was odd, but he was happy with his new wife, and my friend liked her new stepmother, too, so she just accepted it.
Shortly after they married, my friend, her father and her stepmother went to the cemetery where her mother was buried. The stepmother elected to stay in the car, while my friend and her father went to the gravesite. When they got there, her father immediately broke down. My friend realized that her father loved, and still loved her mother, very much. But he also loved his new wife. So much so, that they were happily married for 30 years, with her stepmother just dying earlier this year.
The cancer that took his first wife took 3 years to kill her. During that time, do you think that he stopped loving her, knowing that she was going to die? Not at all. He probably spent every day hoping that the cancer would miraculously disappear. There’s a saying “Hope dies last.”
When I married my wife, I was truly in love with her. And even after things changed radically, do you think I stopped loving her? Oh, Hell, No! Remember, hope dies last. Every day, for almost 4 years, I hung onto hope that the woman I married would somehow miraculously return to me. Even the day before I left her, I still hung onto the hope that I would find that amazing woman again. But the hope died that night, and I left her.
I’m still in love with the woman I married, and I always will be, even if I find someone else to love. The crazy woman I left is not the amazing woman I married. When the hope died, so did the crazy woman. But not the amazing woman I married. You could even argue that the woman I married was an illusion, a facade. And you’re probably right. But that doesn’t diminish my love for her, just as the fact that my friend’s mother died doesn’t diminish the love that her husband had for her, even when he remarried.
My friend’s father was lucky enough to have two great loves in his life. I’m hoping to have one, someday. But that doesn’t mean I won’t still love my illusion.
TheGirlInside says
When my girls say they ‘love’ something, I ask, “But does _____ Love you back?”
Love an illusion all you want, but understand this: Illusions are incapable of Loving you back.
Love yourself first.
Kev. says
Hi never again…
When I refer to the “But I looooooooooove her!” scenario, I’m mostly using it as an excuse people use to deny that there’s abuse going on, or as a qualifier for why they put up with it. I can’t entirely condemn people for that line of thought, as I was just as guilty of it as the people I never understood before I was eyebrow deep in it.
Did I love her? I loved who I thought she was. With time, she hacked away at that love, as I mentioned above. I could go into a long series of incidents that caused this, but we’ve all been there. Maybe some of them will get used as examples in future posts. Sure, I hoped. Every time she would have a tantrum, I hoped it would stop. I hoped she’d be the person who professed to love me, and who was exceptionally sweet and wonderful to me when we first started going out (which, in retrospect, I can see was a lie, and a way to lure me in: Dr. T does a great job of describing this whole process on the old blog here: http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2010/03/12/abusive-women-cults-brainwashing-and-deprogramming-part-i/
I can safely say I stopped loving me ex, and that I no longer love her. And I’m perfectly okay with that. But, again, that’s me, and my situation. Your situation will inevitably vary.
Good luck out there…
chester says
Re: The crazy woman you left vs. the amazing woman you married. What makes getting over it all supremely difficult, is that throughout these relationships, the amazing woman makes periodic appearances. That, is what kept my head spinnin, for the better part of 15 years.
Clark says
First Dr T, let me join the chorus of those who appreciate this site and the work that you do. You’ve made such a positive difference in so many people’s lives. And Kev, I thank you for your insights and contributions. These articles have been some of the tools I’ve used to get me to a better place. Though I’m still enmeshed in my relationship, I can see daylight and can feel a change in myself as I realize things, and stand up for myself against sometimes withering backlash. Without going into my backstory (I’ve heard it echoed eloquently in numerous readers’ posts) I’d like to ask your advice on my current situation. I’d finally said ‘the words.’ I told her to her face that I was done/burnt out/through. That I didn’t want to be there anymore. I was breaking up with her. It had taken an eternity to get myself to this point and I stood strong as she pleaded with me and tried to reason through tears. Then she started taking responsibility for herself, her behavior, her drinking and belligerence. And she started to offer suggestions as to how we could do things ‘differently.’ But instead of me saying ‘too little too late,’ another voice snuck past my better judgement and I heard myself say ‘I can do that.’ Since then we’ve had our first ‘talk’ complete with notes. But it went as well as our others with her trying to redirect my point of view toward ‘reality’ and no longer taking responsibility for herself once there was no fear of loss. There was lots of defensive posturing on both sides as I tried hard not to lose ground but I came away feeling depressed. This morning I woke up with that sinking feeling of same-old same-old and she woke up with a full blown panic attack. Now she is back in the role of the invalid and I am the fixer (or fix-her). I know she is genuinely scared and I know it’s because of us. So my question is this: What do I need to keep in my head that will keep me moving forward despite feeling compelled to reassure her? I’ve tried to do things that stay true to my sense of ethics. Meaning I’ve rejected leaving a note, and a phone call. It was important for me to say the words to her face even though the outcome was not as successful as I’d hoped. How do I keep my positive momentum and not fall back into the trap of status quo, feeling that another opportunity was lost? I know it shouldn’t be this hard, but it is.
Kev. says
Hi Clark…
What do you need to keep in your head that will keep you moving forward?
Re-read what you’ve written above. You’ve already answered your question. 🙂
Everytime you doubt yourself, or doubt that exiting is the right thing to do, re-read what you’ve written above. This will be how it always goes down. I’m curious to know if she actually said the words “I’m sorry.” Mine never did taht. The closest she came was “maybe I was too harsh, but you really need to blah blah blah blah blah.” Did she say something similar to you?
She will not change. Not without significant and prolonged therapy. To continue one of my favorite metaphors that Dr. T uses, she will always pull the football away from you, just as you’re ready to kick it, just like Lucy and Charlie Brown.
Re-read your reply. And when you’re ready to leave again, do it for real. It’s like pulling a mess of tangled razor-wire from your heart (and she will not let go easily). Stay strong, stay firm, and if you have to “out-crazy” her by sticking to your guns (as I outlined above), be prepared to do so.
If you’re worried about her being unable to take care of herself, remember three things: (1) she took care of herself before you, (2) she will more than likely find someont to take care of her after you, and (3) this is not indicative of failure on your part, no matter what she says or does. You didn’t sign up for this, and she was deceitful in suckering you into this.
In many respects, telling her you’re leaving will be harder this time, because she got you to back down before. She will ridicule you, berate you, belittle you, plead, beg, cajole, scream, kick, and give you the silent treatment.
Ask yourself… is that how someone really expresses love?
One thing my ex told me (that I intend to write about at some point), was that “the best way to train a dog is to give it love and affection, coupled with random beatings – this insures that the dog becomes absolutely loyal to you, because it never knows what to expect.”
Sound familiar?
Time to get out. This time, you can do it.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
Jazok says
Coming to terms with the fact that I’m no longer who I was.
Married 25 years and this realization is one of the most painful. I’m not even the man I was eight years ago when our relationship too a big dive. Worse, I now realize that I’ve spent my life seeking approval from my parents and then my wife and they aren’t capable of truly giving it. The events of the last eight years have destroyed my confidence and only made my desire for emotional intimacy and approval worse.
We were very religious when we got married and had a quick courtship. I knew I’d made a mistake immediately, but our ecclesiastical leaders pushed hard for us to stay married and I was too naive to insist that we get professional counseling. Things were rocky with intimacy issues (both physical and emotional) for our entire marriage, but for the past eight years, they’ve gotten terrible.
Some months ago, I found this site. My wife doesn’t fit all the attributes of a BPD, but several. I decided she was borderline borderline. Around this time, she recruited a close mutual friend who my wife and I both befriended before meeting each other. He and I had a long talk and I told my side; turns out, he’d been suspicious of her side and what I said confirmed his suspicions–that she was full on borderline (due to childhood attachment disorder once I filled him in the blanks about her military absent father and very obviously NPD mother.)
I’m still not convinced since she has never displayed many of the “signs”, especially violence. She does, however, keep an extraordinary amount of small things from me. For example, after ten years of neither of us attending church, she decided she wanted to return and told other people that I was stopping her, yet I’ve repeatedly told her that if she wanted to go to church she was welcome (but she could only take the [teenage] children if they chose to go.)
Three months ago, we had a huge discussion. For once she didn’t get hysterical, though she kept turning everything back on me. I stood up for myself and she did come clean about many issues (one of which devastated me) and the effect was amazing. For two months or so our relationship was better than it had been in close to twenty years. It was even improving. In the past two weeks, it’s begun collapsing again.
I just found out that she’s been privately emailing my parents, sister and one sister-in-law concerning church (they’re all very involved in the same religion) and misrepresenting my stances on her going to church. (Several things she says are technically true, but she phrases them in such a way as to distort the truth and make me look bad.) I also found out that she’s confided what I though were highly personal issues between us with sisters-in-law on each side of the family tree and possibly more.
I feel like I’ve been stabbed in the back and punched in the stomach.
The intellectual part of me knows I need to leave, but the emotional part fights it. Every time I really start thinking about it, I feel horribly guilty. I know I’m going to be turned into the bad guy, especially with my family and like I said, I’ve always sought approval from those people and hate being bad guy. My youngest daughter was a mommy’s girl (my oldest a daddy’s girl, so it balanced out.) In the past few years, especially lately, I’ve been building a great relationship with her and I scared to death that I’ll lose that.
The other week, it dawned on me that I also don’t want to leave because I’m scared of being alone. In many ways I’m already alone emotionally, but a crappy relationship is better than none at all. I know, I know, that’s the dumbest reason to stay, but I can’t shake it.
My wife has never displayed even the remotest signs of physical violence, she’s rarely put me down (though has a few times), she rarely criticizes me. But, we can’t talk about any sensitive subject, our sex life is whatever she wants it to be (another epiphany: she’s a genuinely lousy lover–she has absolutely no clue how to be physically intimate.)
As I write this, my intellect tells me I know the answers, but God is it hard.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
Hi Jazok,
I’m sorry to read what you’re going through. It’s a betrayal; a painful betrayal. Here’s my hypothesis: Your wife sensed that you’re considering ending the relationship, so went on good behavior thereby lulling you into a false sense of security. Meanwhile, she seems to be laying the groundwork for a smear campaign, so that if and when you do pull the pin on the relationship, she’ll have already cast herself the poor, downtrodden, long-suffering victim and you as the abusive, controlling son of a gun. In other words, she’s not going to portray you as the bad guy; she’s already portraying you as the bad guy—to your own family!
As for seeking/needing approval, that’s how many abusive women control their partners. You need to remember that you’re seeking approval from the one person who’s never going to give it to you. She’s already proven herself untrustworthy and malicious by trying to turn your own family against you. I encourage you to speak with each of them individually and set the record straight.
Kev. says
Hi Jazok,
I can only imagine the depths of the pain you’re in… my ex did a lot of the things you mentioned in one form or another. I would clarify that there are many types of violence a person can inflict on another besides physical; emotional, psychological, you get the drift. I think deep down you know this already. Physical violence is not the only prerequisite for an abusive relationship. I think, too often, as men (and perhaps there are women in similar situations who think this way, too), that “well, she hasn’t hit me, so it must not be abuse, and must therefore be something I’m causing.”
Nothing could be further from the truth.
You know it’s time to get out.
As Dr. T said, she’s already painting you as the bad guy. That perception, unfortunately, isn’t something you need to worry about at this point.
I write a little bit about this in an upcoming post, but you’re going to probably have to sacrifice some friendships, and possibly even some family members (though I suspect in the aftermath, you’ll find that they may be more on “your side” than you’ve been led to believe. This is difficult. This will hurt. It will not be easy.
When all is said and done, you will find out who your true friends and loved ones are.
I know it’s difficult to be alone. I know the feeling of “crappy relationship is better than none,” and the hardest thing for me was to watch my ex trot merrily along to the next guy without a care in the world, while I was pretty much incapacitated by the end of our relationship. Be prepared that your wife will do this, and she will probably try to throw it in your face about “how much better” the next guy is. He isn’t. He’s just the next guy she’s duped. He will learn in due course.
Get out. Start seeing a therapist, if you haven’t already. And once you’re out, you need to go no-contact, except for matters of the kids. There are people on this site who are better able to offer advice on that situation than I am.
On the old blog, I mentioned something about the making the exit seeming incredibly difficult, but actually very easy. It’s much like the “Leap of Faith” scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. It appears to be a chasm, but it’s actually a bridge.
Cousin Dave says
Jazok, I don’t know that violence, or the lack of it, is necessarily an indicator. My Cluster B ex was never a physically violent person. That’s because she was big into passive-aggressiveness — she’d be sweet to your face, and then talk smack about you as soon as you had your back turned. She was a pro at making insinuations and twisting people’s words, and then keeping it from the people she’d besmirched that she had done so. She talked bad about me to other people for years, and I didn’t find any of this out until near the end of our relationship. That sounds like what your wife is doing, actually.
Denis says
Thanks for sharing Kev,
I had a similar experience. It got to the point where I was so confused that I asked her if we could record our conversation and then play it back later to see what happened. She responded by throwing my recorder across the room and breaking it.
I certainly feel that I’m a changed person, trust doesn’t come easy. However, there is a silver lining that I tend to be more focused on interpreting actions and body language, rather than trusting words. When your instincts are screaming for attention…listen to them!
I’ve have plenty of good relationships in my life that I look back on with fond memories. I tend to be attracted to strong women, but I need to avoid those who are insecure and have a history of blaming others for all their lifes problems.
MK says
The Exorcist reference and picture really freaked me out. I did re-watch The Exorcists not two weeks ago, and the analogies to my NPD W were striking. Two weeks later I discover the “new” S4M, and there it is, that demon face vomiting the green stuff that I get covered in regularly!
MDS says
Good reading. Looking forward to more. Thanks.
bluegeek says
I wish I had discovered this website 10 years ago during the first round of counseling. (Yes I realize I should have bailed out then.) My experience with BPD wife has been eerily similar to so many of you.
Kev…Soounds like you should write a book .
John P says
I’m a little late in reading this as i just recently joined this site but I still wanted to applaud you for having the courage to extract yourself from the relationship and share your story. I know words can’t express how difficult it has been for you. I have been through a similar ordeal so please know that you’re not alone my friend. I just read a cool quote somewhere that read “diamonds are made under pressure”….meaning that after making it through a relationship like the one you were in, you’ll be incredibly strong and worth very much to the right person.