Do you fancy yourself a knight in shining armor?
Are you a sucker for damsels in distress?
Do you like coming to your partner’s “rescue?”
Do women with a sob story make you feel protective?
Do you have a pattern of getting involved with waifs and distressed damsels du jour and set out to prove that “you’re not like all the other guys?”
Do you believe that your emotional crisis-ridden partner “can’t live without you?”
Do you need to feel needed?
Do you need to feel like your partner’s “hero?”
Has a therapist ever referred to you as a “professional caretaker?”
Are you a woman who has a pattern of getting involved with men who have crazy, unstable and abusive exes?
Do you feel compelled to show these men that “you’re not like all the other women who have hurt him?”
Are you a rescuer of rescuers?
If so, this BlogTalkRadio program discusses the unhealthy relationship pattern in which many white knights, heroes, knights in shining armor, rescuers, fixers, professional caretakers and rescuers of rescuers find themselves stuck. The concepts of hostile dependency, codependency, and parentified children are also discussed.
Counseling with Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD
Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD helps individuals work through their relationship and codependency issues via telephone or Skype. She specializes in helping men and women trying to break free of an abusive relationship, cope with the stress of an abusive relationship or heal from an abusive relationship. Coaching individuals through high-conflict divorce and custody cases is also an area of expertise. She combines practical advice, emotional support and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Schedule a Session page for more information.
Want to Say Goodbye to Crazy? Buy it HERE.
This is interesting. While I didn’t see myself as saving a damsel in distress, my ex-wife saw me as a knight in shining armor saving her. This idealization came crashing down when I was unemployed about a decade ago and she had to work for the family to survive. A princess doesn’t work, let alone to actually maintain the castle.
At that point my ex’s rejection went from a relatively passive, covert thing to something more overt. (Though my marriage counselor believes the effect on me before this point was still quite profound and likely led me to leave my church and become more confrontation with my kids and coworkers.)
To put it another way, until that point my ex saw me as an actual husband. After that point, I became a legal husband–a walking ATM machine. She became a “damsel in distress” again, but there were no shiny knights.
(I thought I was just using metaphor with this until one child and a sister made comments along this same line.)
Hi Jason,
I’m glad your ex is ex. The more their entitlement needs aren’t being met, the more overtly vicious they become.
Hi Dr. T, I gently suggest that you use the term, “White Knight” with caution; and offer a clear definition of what you mean when speaking about it on the show tonight. In many parts of the MRA/MGTOW movement the title, “White Knight” is often used to describe overly chivalric men who defend women without regard to their bad behavior. Lots of men in MRM have endured horrible personal attacks, and social ostracism, at the hands of these sycophants and do not want to hear anyone sticking up for them. It’s possible that a good portion of the audience might misunderstand what you are saying and simply tune out. I’d hate to see that happen.
Hi Iron John,
Thank you for the clarification. I thought I was careful to use the term “knight in shining armor,” but I may have mixed the terms up somewhere.
I’ll be more careful in the future.
Jason,
I see so much of my wife in the waif. I look forward to catching this week. I imagine it will be during lunchtime sometime this week. My wife never shows any interest in work outside the home for the family. Instead she wants her kitty of spending money. Whether it is designer sun glasses, designer purse, plastic surgery or whatever. Early on I just assumed she had never been financially responsible for a household but I have heard these ideas communicated to me in the way we raise our son and daughter. If my daughter chooses to be a housewife, as long as she takes it as seriously as someone takes a job, then that would be wonderful for her and her spouse. Honestly the same would be true for my son though that would be a non traditional gender role. Its my observation is that waif’s care about raising little teddy bears that make them feel good and spending money they haven’t earned.
Its my observation is that waif’s care about raising little teddy bears that make them feel good and spending money they haven’t earned.
And the waifs can turn into witches when their “little teddy bears” don’t make mom feel good about herself and start to individuate into their own autonomous beings.
@ Jason: “I didn’t see myself as saving a damsel in distress, my ex-wife saw me as a knight in shining armor saving her.”
That seems to be very common — in my experience the female abuser dynamic runs in my wife’s side of the family. While everything in this site seems valid, I cannot help but notice how frequently the abuser can, like flipping a light switch, switch to normal behavior. This is typical if someone shows up & knocks at the door for example when my wife or [evil] mother in law [EMIL] or sister in law [ESIL] is ranting away.
Thus, to what extent is a narcissist or BPD personality truly afflicted, or, just using the “technique” out of laziness, malice, etc?
Benchmark: review of FBI discussions regarding serial killers & those that seem compelled to kill uncontrollably reveals that such people do exist, but they are a tiny minority. Most can & do wait, plot, etc. & come back mulitple times to do their deed. Per FBI profilers, this ability to postpone, come-back at a more prime opportunity, etc. is prima-facie evidence that they are not uncontrolled “psychos” (to [ab]use that term very loosely), but rather are very much in control. Many, maybe most, narcissists/BPD’s I’ve observed show this capacity.
Benchmark: my in-laws…this BPD/Narcissistic profile seems very common … yet…it is the males on that side that have consistently overcome their abusive behavior. Usually, what’s happened is that when they acted out & they got beat up somewhere along the way, by other guys. Strong motivation for introspection & initiative to develop alternate interpersonal relations & figure out what went wrong to do better next time. Also, they’ve gotten increasingly adept at not pairing up with unstable types; each new relationship is with an increasingly stable woman (or in one case, gay male partner). In contrast, the women (ex-wives/girlfriends) seem to be getting worse, taking advantage of society’s tolerance & excuse-making.
While I’m not advocating violence (in the military its called “fragging” when the troops kill a usually abusive/incompetent/etc. superior or peer) I have observed that this, or such a perceived threat, does seem to work to improving behavior.
In my case, years ago, I caught my wife on a rant & used the cordless phone to call 911–which recorded her clearly. The police came & she got a talking to. Had there been visible injury, or blood, her arrest would have been automatic. But now, that call is formal indisputable evidence from an unassailable source. Its also something I’ve got (anyone can, or could then, get their 911 call transcript or even audio). And when she’s inclined to “go off” I throw that at her. Instant cooling effect.
Which makes me really doubt this is as much the disorder its hyped up to be & so intractible. More like a lazy tactical approach by someone that has some deep-seated injury & stunted emotional development…or just someone to lazy to even think of something else. Laziness seems to be a factor–just try to act the same way sometime, you’ll be surprised at just how easy it comes.
Also, I noticed a neighbor that refused to let his wife’s tantrums affect him. Even pausing to just sit back & watch the show, even comment on it as such or play along that, yes, there they were silent & in total control of the abuser’s emotions. Of course, this really riles up the BPD/Narcissist…but since they’re going off anyway, its kind of fun to take control of their rage–like squirting lighter fluid on a flaming Bar-B-Q. Again, time after time I’ve seen this type back way off, and do so more or less instantly, when they realize that what you’re up to is playing their game via a passive-agressive role-player. Of course, some such trivial behavior can get them violent–which is when you start your recorder, which clearly records nothing much explode into something extreme for no discernable provocation.
Most recordings will end-up deleted, but some will be very valuable. The hard part is setting up the habit to take them then screen & save them accordingly. Depending on one’s jurisdiction, posting them on-line & sharing with family/friends, or threating to & making it clear this is tee’d up & ready to go, may induce some abuser’s to back off (i.e. show the website, but note that, for now, its password-protected…until they get really unreasonable — this isn’t “blackmail” if recordings were obtained legally). Even they realize its hard for them to convince others you were the abuser when they are admitting on tape they were the one doing the hitting & threatening you with more of the same, even saying they’ll use the frail damsel in distress against a bigger threat, you, as their defense.
To me, that further reinforces that this is not so much a disorder (in such cases) as a mere tactic being applied. And a lazy one at that.
Tactics have counter-tactics. One can fight back without raising one’s voice, making any threats, etc. They do have emotional weaknesses, and most can be exploited with relative ease. So far, anyway, that’s my observation. Laughter usually works well — they’re working hard to get a rise out of you. Call’m on their game–and laugh at them (“you’ll have to do better than that” etc.). If they get really out of hand, start the little recorder you should be carrying at all times; even a phone camera with crude video works well.
Taking some measure of control, especially one that lets one not only defend what’s merited but even fight back to some extent is VERY invigorating & offsetting to the emotional dynamics that come from being abused. Face it, not really discussed on this site is the fact that those of use abused are very very angry at the abuser–and any legal means of fighting back feel good. And, oddly, that’s healthy.
Hi Ken,
You write:
That seems to be very common — in my experience the female abuser dynamic runs in my wife’s side of the family. While everything in this site seems valid, I cannot help but notice how frequently the abuser can, like flipping a light switch, switch to normal behavior. This is typical if someone shows up & knocks at the door for example when my wife or [evil] mother in law [EMIL] or sister in law [ESIL] is ranting away.
This is why I don’t buy the whole, “I can’t help being this way! I can’t control myself. You have to forgive me” BS many self-identified BPDs espouse. The fact of the matter is many of them act with premeditation and absolutely can control themselves when it suits them (e.g., they’re trying to charm someone or fear a bigger bully than themselves). They seem to mostly lash out at the people they claim to love and who they know will put up with their garbage.
my in-laws…this BPD/Narcissistic profile seems very common … yet…it is the males on that side that have consistently overcome their abusive behavior. Usually, what’s happened is that when they acted out & they got beat up somewhere along the way, by other guys. Strong motivation for introspection & initiative to develop alternate interpersonal relations & figure out what went wrong to do better next time. Also, they’ve gotten increasingly adept at not pairing up with unstable types; each new relationship is with an increasingly stable woman (or in one case, gay male partner). In contrast, the women (ex-wives/girlfriends) seem to be getting worse, taking advantage of society’s tolerance & excuse-making.
This is why I believe, in many cases, that real life NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES are the best way to counter these behaviors. Counseling is NOT a consequence.
I noticed a neighbor that refused to let his wife’s tantrums affect him. Even pausing to just sit back & watch the show, even comment on it as such or play along that, yes, there they were silent & in total control of the abuser’s emotions. Of course, this really riles up the BPD/Narcissist…but since they’re going off anyway, its kind of fun to take control of their rage–like squirting lighter fluid on a flaming Bar-B-Q. Again, time after time I’ve seen this type back way off, and do so more or less instantly, when they realize that what you’re up to is playing their game via a passive-agressive role-player.
I don’t recommend this because it may escalate their behavior into violence. However, NOT reacting or just leaving is a good tactic. When these types go off the rail and start the baiting and abuse, THEY ARE TRYING TO GET YOU TO REACT. Don’t. Just look at them as if they’re a character on “America’s Totally Psycho Home Video” and then set a boundary. If you don’t react or respond by firmly and clearly stating, “That’s not true. I will not talk with you when you’re like this. If you continue to behave this way, I will leave,” it will deflate them and many will go off to sulk. Alternately, it may enrage them. In which case, as you suggest, start recording and call 911 if need be.
Taking some measure of control, especially one that lets one not only defend what’s merited but even fight back to some extent is VERY invigorating & offsetting to the emotional dynamics that come from being abused. Face it, not really discussed on this site is the fact that those of use abused are very very angry at the abuser–and any legal means of fighting back feel good. And, oddly, that’s healthy.
I agree with this 100%.
Do you fancy yourself a knight in shining armor? (like Joan of Ark) – kind of. Definitely have a ‘hero complex’
Are you a sucker for [dudes] in distress? yep
Do you like coming to your partner’s “rescue?” oh hell yeah. Don’t NOBODY mess with my man (or my friends). Mess with me all you want, however.
Do [men] with a sob story make you feel protective? Yeah…Florence Nightingale Syndrome – “Come here, I’ll make it all better.”
Do you have a pattern of getting involved with [diheartened] and distressed [dudes ]du jour and set out to prove that “you’re not like all the other [girls]?” yeah…(starting to feel a little worried here)
Do you believe that your emotional crisis-ridden partner “can’t live without you?” I hope not; I don’t like dependency…back off!
Do you need to feel needed? Ah…not necessarily
Do you need to feel like your partner’s “hero?” – would love to!! Like Xena, Warrior Princess “Back off, bitch! That’s MY man you just disparaged!”
Has a therapist ever referred to you as a “professional caretaker?” not yet
Are you a woman who has a pattern of getting involved with men who have crazy, unstable and abusive exes? No…but yes with men who are (1) hung up on an ex (2) still upset / hurt / disgruntled over an ex or (3) still ‘with’ an ex (susceptible to be sucked back in at any given moment)
Do you feel compelled to show these men that “you’re not like all the other women who have hurt him?” yah. Damn.
Are you a rescuer of rescuers? Not sure. But remember a phrase from my h.s. years, “Baby, I be so good to you.” (in other words, dump that b*tch – don’t you know you got a good woman right here, just waiting).
Like the song: “There’s your Trouble, there’s your trouble, seeing double with the wrong one…you can’t see I love you, you can’t see she doesn’t, and you just keep holding on…there’s your trouble.” Dixie Chicks
I just realized (like this morning) that the men I have truly, deeply LOVED (LAHHHH-VED) with all my heart and soul…have all fallen into one of three categories:
1. Hung up on an ex (still pining over her – using me as a proxy until realizing that he’s over her / doesn’t need me anymore…that one stung for a good long time)
2. Still attached to an ex (i.e. cheating on me or dumping me after 4 months of marriage–for the sake of annulment–so he could get back with* his still-married ex, only to realize (snicker) that she ain’t leaving her husband for him). Hell on earth.
*This mistakenly assumes they were ever broken up. But they continued to call each other (without my knowledge), and his car was found parked at her house for several hours at a time during the day, more than once, by a good friend of mine who lived in that area.
3. Still pissed / upset hurt over his ex, with an axe to grind (like he wants to use me to restore his faith in women, but also make me pay for what some dumb c*nt from his past did to him.). I sometimes want to shake those men by the shoulders and shout, “IT WASN’T ME!! I didn’t do that to you! I wasn’t even there!” God!!! Then he goes off and gets involved with , or the same twit! I mean, COME, ON!!!
A 1990s Trisha Yearwood song: “The woman before me, must have been hard on you; ‘cause that hurt in your eyes, I didn’t put you through….sometimes I think you must be talking to, the woman before me and you.”
I know it hurts. I know you want to heal. I know you want to get back at her. But please….PLEASE….do not take it out on a good woman who only wants to love you (and maybe does want to rescue you / be YOUR warrior for a change). It’s a good woman who is willing to stand up and fight for your sake, your rights, your self-worth, your financial, physical and emotional health (within certain legal and ethical boundaries); that should be appreciated, not kicked aside to give the abusive ex one more swipe at you…IMHO.
Time to lock and load….
I’ve been burned by this type of situation too. That’s how I found this site over two years ago. A guy I was attracted to at work had a girlfriend and I began to notice odd interactions between them. She would call him at work and then lecture him for an hour because he didn’t call her back fast enough. He would complain to his coworkers that she would frequently make him feel guilty about different things. He would tell us that she would get upset if he tried to spend time with friends, and that she was very jealous. I didn’t think much of it at the time, but I do recall feeling a twinge of ‘hmmm, that seems strange’. Then things got really weird. He told me that she had threatened to end their relationship trying to get him to do what she wanted, and then she took her threat all the way. He didn’t want it to end but she did end it, and we started seeing each other. It was obvious we really liked each other. I knew that it was possible things were not completely over, but I ignored that red flag. A week later he returns a box of her stuff to her that she had left at his place, and he uses her computer (weird break up). The laptop battery dies, and he realized later that because he didn’t close out the page before the computer died, his email was accessible once she booted her computer back up. She read it all (I know, sounds far fetched but they both confirmed this). What a mess. She then finds out about me (he and I had emailed through MySpace) flipped out and the next thing I know she is emailing me to tell me they weren’t really broken up and how I have no dignity or self respect because I ‘ruin’ other people’s relationships. I was having none of it. I fired back that she had ended it, and that my emails were upfront as a friend, not a rival trying to ‘steal’ him away and ‘ruin’ their relationship. How the hell can I ruin a relationship when she breaks up with him, and then a week later he returns her stuff to her house? In what world does that make sense? Crazy world! On the phone, he told me that she wanted him to hate me, but he wouldn’t. I could hear his voice break in the “but I won’t” part. He sounded like he had been whipped into submission. The last thing he said to me was “I’ll talk to you soon”…but unfortunately that sentiment didn’t last long. Days later, he suddenly stopped returning my texts. I was devastated. This wasn’t the guy that I knew. It would have been different if he had said, ‘Hey, I’m going to try to work things out with her so we can’t talk anymore…I hope you can understand’ but cutting me off like that was cruel and really difficult for me. We had gotten close, and I never saw it coming. We didn’t work together anymore so he literally disappeared. For a long time I believed she had convinced him to do that to me. Perhaps out of rage and jealousy she wanted me to live out her fear of abandonment…and I did and it was awful. Or perhaps he is just an immature man who behaved cowardly. What does it matter. What I realized from this was, ‘sometimes the abused become the abuser’…whether it’s their idea or not. Whether these men are manipulated into behaving in a way they otherwise wouldn’t, or they become asses fixated on something that will never happen for them….either way, we end up getting burned. I did want to save him, I pleaded with him to look at what he was doing and how he was handling it but I continued to get ignored. After extensive research about controlling relationships, manipulation, and co-dependency I found Dr. T’s site and literally said to myself, ‘Wow this is the bible of all this shit’ and I sent him a link to her site. That was a year ago. That’s all you can do….nothing else. It’s sad but now I know what to avoid and that I can’t save anyone. I can try to help but that’s it. The weird thing is, after going through all that it’s easier for me to detach from people now. It’s noticeably easier. I keep it in check though, and make sure I’m not rude…but I know I’m not cold like he was.
Ah yes, the guy who’s still hung up on his abusive ex. He needs help and support, but not from a new woman in a dating situation. It’s a recipe for a lot of pain if you’re the new, non-abusive woman.
Many men eventually free themselves emotionally, but many also seem to remain in a state of constant craving for the ex. They like you and care about you and want to want to be with you, but . . .
It’s a coin toss as to which guys are ready to move on and which ones art. A clear sign is if he’s still defending her and romanticizing her “good qualities” you’d be better off staying away.
It’s painful. It’s sad. It’s a waste, but please don’t let yourself get drawn into this kind of triangle TGI and Irishgirl. It will only leave you feeling like emotional mincemeat.
I knew a BPD who was a licensed psycho therapist. She was seeing a married man who was a psychotherapist as well. She used to go over to his house while his wife and kids were there. So much for professional ethics.
He cheated on her. What a surprise. She claimed that she wanted to smash into his car every time she got behind him with hers. Her Psychiatrist put her on Stellazine (anti psychotic) for her obsessional anger. She called the Psychiatrist and told him that she felt so bad that she wanted to die or for a man to come along and take her away from all of her problems.
To me it was an obvious attempt to prompt a rescue from him in a rather seductive way. The Psychiatrist should never have let her out there holding a license and working with people on Stellazine or as a BPD Cluster B. I couldn’t believe that she even thought she would be attractive to anybody in the shape she was, but then again she qualifies for NPD as well She described states that were near catatonic at times. I think she shut down to deal with her emotions and locked in. I found this to be something a defiant child would do.
When a BPD is in Waif mode they have no intention of helping themselves and are looking for a parent. They have to be victims as well. This mode is a surefire way to make sure they will stay victims and get people’s sympathy and empathy. I find this psychopathic. People shouldn’t feel too bad for falling for this because shrinks everywhere fall for this act themselves a lot of the time. After all they are trained to “rescue”. I think some of them even keep the rescues up and think, “Well here’s my retirement fund with this one”.