The following article is written by another CrazyBuster, Peppy. Like Micksbabe, she also married a man with a high-conflict ex and alienated children.
In her first Shrink4Men article, Peppy shares lessons she learned after meeting and marrying a man who was once married to Crazy. Peppy discusses prerequisites you should have in place before pursuing a serious relationship post-divorce.
After freeing oneself of a relationship with a high-conflict personality (HCP) spouse or significant other, most people feel a great sense of relief. When I met my now husband, he’d been divorced for 2 years. He described divorcing his HCP first wife as “being paroled from prison.”
While going through his divorce, he met a woman who he thought was “the ONE.” In his estimation, he’d finally found someone who could offer all the love and affection he’d been missing during his 6-year prison-sentence of a marriage.
In hindsight, this relationship was his “transitional” relationship; a relationship that helped re-build his self-esteem until he realized it wasn’t meant to be a long-term proposition. I share this with you because it’s important to be cognizant of this phenomenon and not over-commit to the first woman who shows you kindness.
When I met my husband, he’d had his transitional relationship and his son was 4-years old. I thought to my never-married self, “Oh, he’s been through it all and his son doesn’t even remember his parents being together. Surely the divorce is well behind him.”
I wanted to believe my man was ready for the next phase of his life, where he would get a second and better chance at love.
I was naïve and I was wrong.
I soon discovered that time does not heal all wounds, as the popular dictate suggests. In fact, in HCP Land, time is meaningless. It goes against all rational thinking and belief systems, but it’s the reality of the situation.
In a HCP’s distorted mind, hurts and slights that occurred 10 years ago are as fresh as last week. And even though the ink on your divorce decree has long since dried, the HCP believes you are still her “property” and that she should come first, even if she has to mask her demands by superimposing them onto your children.
This means that HCPs continuously draw their exes into their internal turmoil and drama regardless of the divorce and subsequent re-coupling. Reality does not matter to the HCP, so it has to matter deeply to you if you want any subsequent relationship to last and thrive.
What matters more than the passage of time is boundaries. Creating and enforcing boundaries with an HCP ex is often hard-fought and hard-won. However, they are absolutely essential for you to have a happy and healthy new relationship.
Before you can venture wholeheartedly and honestly into the dating world, it’s important that you develop the ability to uphold boundaries around yourself, your dating life, your extended family and your children. This is no small task.
Before you begin dating, please keep the following factors in mind:
1) Separate lives means separate. Do your best to keep your life separate from your HCP ex. After you divorce, your life is your own. Your private life is just that — private — and, as such, is none of your ex’s business, other than information you’re court-ordered to provide if you share children.
Your ex no longer gets to dictate how you spend your time and with whom. She must no longer be permitted to enter your home. You should confine most or all communication to email so that everything is business-like and on the record.
It’s especially important to have these kinds of boundaries in place before you bring a new woman into your life or she and she alone will be blamed for any subsequent boundary setting. If these boundaries aren’t in place before you begin dating, you’ll effectively set your new love up to be the target of your HCP ex. She’ll probably become your ex’s target regardless, but at least you won’t be complicit making her the scapegoat.
2) Don’t allow your HCP ex to portray your new love interest as “the other woman.” While it’s important to keep your dating life separate from your HCP ex, it’s equally important that you not hide any serious girlfriends or significant others from the HCP.
This may sound like contradictory advice and, in a sense, it is. It might seem like you’re protecting your new love from the Crazy storm that is your HCP ex by keeping her a secret. In reality, it will only serve to make your new partner feel like “the other woman” even though you are divorced. It also reinforces your HCP ex’s false belief that she still maintains the numero uno position in your life.
My husband’s ex insisted that I call and introduce myself to her (a.k.a. pay homage to the Golden Uterus). She tried to position herself as the matriarch of their now-defunct family and make me one of her “subjects.” I refused and insisted that my husband introduce me to her in person, you know, like normal people do.
Men, try to treat your new relationship as you would have treated any new relationship before your HCP ex taught you to walk on eggshells.
3) Enforce boundaries with your family of origin post-divorce. As you create boundaries and move on with your life, you may need to help your family of origin do the same. Your extended family also needs to leave the past behind and not burden your new partner with lengthy discussions or reminiscing about your HCP ex.
Please make sure that before you introduce a new partner to your family, that they remove all public photographs of your wedding to your ex or other inappropriate displays of the marriage and family that have now ended. It may not seem like a big deal, but it sends a message to your new partner that she is an intruder.
Some divorcees continue to celebrate holidays and special occasions such as birthdays with their HCP ex. This, in my opinion, is a sure fire way to stay single. I suggest you re-think that approach if you’re interested in finding and keeping a new partner.
4) Avoid the step-monster trap that will surely be set by your HCP ex. It’s vital that you help your new partner gradually build a relationship with your children. You must not permit your HCP ex to marginalize, degrade, or otherwise diminish your partner. You must not permit your children, if they are old enough, to marginalize, degrade, or otherwise diminish your partner.
It might seem easier to have your new partner fade into the woodwork when your children are around. That does, in fact, work for awhile. However, if you have any hope of a successful long-term relationship, you’ll eventually need to lead the process of integrating her into your family, and that includes your children.
If you aren’t capable of putting your new partner first and honoring her place in your life, then you may want to rethink entering into a serious relationship. Let me repeat, if you aren’t capable of putting your partner first and of honoring her place in your life, then you should not enter into a serious relationship until you’re prepared to do so.
Date in a superficial manner, have friends or casual safe sex partners, but DO NOT subject another human being to the toxicity of a HCP if you aren’t capable of protecting her from it through effective and rock solid boundaries.
These are choices you’ll eventually need to make.
For perspective, when my husband and I had been dating for about 6 months, I noticed some very disturbing patterns of behavior with his HCP ex. They were still engaged in an unhealthy dance with each other, all in the name of their son. They’d been apart for 3 years and the ex was still attempting reconciliation from time to time.
Back then, I told my now husband of 9 years what I’d observed and said, “In my opinion, you have three choices. You can get back together with her, you can continue to operate the way you do with her and stay single, or you can set some limits and move on with me or another woman.”
My husband chose to set limits and we eventually married.
For the record, any woman worth having will say the same to you at some point if you do not implement boundaries with your HCP ex. For your sake and hers, I hope that she won’t have to do so.
Counseling with Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD
Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD helps individuals work through their relationship and codependency issues via telephone or Skype. She specializes in helping men and women trying to break free of an abusive relationship, cope with the stress of an abusive relationship or heal from an abusive relationship. Coaching individuals through high-conflict divorce and custody cases is also an area of expertise. She combines practical advice, emotional support and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Schedule a Session page for more information.
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Excellent article, Peppy!
This part especially resonated with me: “It might seem easier to have your new partner fade into the woodwork when your children are around. That does, in fact, work for awhile.”
This was requested of me as well and it still stings (10 years later) to be reminded of it. Treating your future Partner like a pariah is NOT “taking the high road”.
I second that, Micksbabe! Excellent article. Thank you, Peppy.
It was my pleasure to write about a subject that I/we know all too well. I am now in my 12th year with my husband, nine plus married. We have two beautiful children together. The “process” to get out of Crazy Land was filled with pit falls I would rather have not gone through. The purpose of this article is to help the men on this board avoid them, and to protect the new women in their lives from being hurt.
This was very comforting for me to read. So accurate and insightful. This is an important time for me to be able to understand that other women have survived the process of marrying a man with a HCP. We have been married for 6 months and I absolutely adore my husband but am really struggling with the situation.
My husband has a HCP who refuses to meet me. His fifteen year old daughter is deployed into our house with a new game each week. She is rude and disdainful to me but also to my 3 year old son which really concerns me.
His ex never attempted to work which Dr Palmatier also covers in another article. Very helpful.
I am sure that his HCP is still attached but I cannot figure how she thinks that way? How does she think 15 years on that she is still his partner or whatever is going through her head to refuse to meet me? Why groom her poor daughter come here and be horrible? At 15 that must be very confusing. It is definitely stressful for everyone involved.
I would love advice on what worked for other people. I must have a more resilient mental approach.
It sounds to me like you have become her target of blame and she has enlisted her daughter as a soldier in her army, so to speak. It’s parental alienation and a form of brain washing. Very destructive for her daughter and for you & your marriage as well.
It’s hard to explain why some of these HCPs seem to harbor a false sense of connection with our husbands. I think it is to avoid the terrifying feelings of being abandoned, which is the hallmark symptom of BPD. “Frantic efforts to avoid real or perceived abandonment.” They employ this fantasy as a defense mechanism against reality. Reality is too painful, so they create an alternate “reality” that is distorted and untrue.
As for advice…..I would have to write a book, lol. The antidote to the toxicity seems to be boundaries, personal care, and tending to ones marriage.
As soon as I read your comment, a light went on. I could handle taking on an adult as that would be fair. What is hard is this poor 15 year old foot soldier sent in to our house to do battle. 15 but very effective and sophisticated. The nurturer is me is hurt and confused. My husband is suffering watching the change in his daughter and the impacts on me. Dirty tactics on HCP’s part.
Good comment about the abandonment issues. Another light bulb moment. I get it now, she does not live in the real world like the rest of us so her daughter is stuck between the real world and her Mum’s world through loyalty. That has to be tough.
Personal care and weekends away to shore up the damage. I hear you.
The fact that people like you have been through these toxic situations and come out the other side sane and calm with a good marriage in tact is incredibly reassuring.
Thankyou for taking time to comment. Please write the book! I will be ready to add a few chapters in a couple of years. I plan to keep my fantasitc husband and marriage together so will need to become a HCP and BPD expert. No lack of opportunities to learn!
Boy oh boy! THANK YOU, just thank you for this great and so, SO important article. (I’ve been absent from these boards for a while due to work pressures, though I do read all the posts but this one was so useful – like all the rest of course, I had to comment.)
Perhaps – later I may list in the ways I have been insurmountably hurt by men who had HCP manipulative exes lurking around, but for now: True, the men go through hell- but the most silent victim, the ‘collateral damage’, the silent ‘giver’, ‘supporter’ is that kind, generous, patient, rational nice girl who is the one that has to soak and recover from all the past garbage that HCP women cause. It doesn’t matter if the the new girl may be kinder, hotter, better – the ‘hooks’ those ex-she-vampires use are like permanent shrapnel in men’s minds who have given their love, youth, passion, patience, and money to crazy psychos and are so spent by the time they recognize a good girl, that the good girl often has to generate endless amounts of positivity to stay afloat. And nary a mention is made in our culture of what the good woman goes through, while all the ‘why, whys’ are focused on the bitchy women in the past. And of course, the HCPs always try to break them up, or lurk around the corner for a quicky or some new drama. The same ‘good girls’ they used to bully back in school and isolate to keep them out of the dating pool are now their ‘enemy’ once again and in their crosshairs. In our world – the good, the giving, the kind, the rational – be it men or women – are taken for granted while the bullies and the evil ones scream and rule roost.
This post is so needed, SO important. Thank you again Micksabe, Peppy and especially Dr. Tara for providing this excellent information. And for thinking of those silent, giving women who pay the ultimate price of the evil created by the monsters of their gender – who not only give a bad name to ‘womanhood’ but damage the giving men in our world. At least – the men had crazy sex at some point with the HCPs – the new woman not only does not get ANY perks from that ex – but just a new set of drama, turmoil and constant venom.
The more our world deciphers and discerns between good and evil (psychologically, factually and neurologically) the more the Good will get justice and not just become silent, sacrificial ‘props’ to serve Evil. No ‘system’ is going to aid you. It’s only your own balanced judgments and sites like these.
I have found many men become defensive of their HCPs when a good woman asks them, just as women often defend an abuser. Instead, this post should act as a guideline on how to stand up for a good partner’s rights and dignity.
Later, I hope when I have time, I can cite some heart-rending stories on how the future good, kind and understanding woman had to pay the price for the psycho-exes whose toxicity she had to bear through male partners who did not understand about boundaries. There is nothing sadder in life than punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty, the toxic and the manipulative.
Excellent post. Wish I had this at a certain time in my life……it would have hurt so much less…. Oh well!
Cheers!
Well said, and it seems to happen far too often.
yes, right. These lines by Peppy:
(a)”Men, try to treat your new relationship as you would have treated any new relationship before your HCP ex taught you to walk on eggshells.”
and
(b)”If you aren’t capable of putting your new partner first and honoring her place in your life, then you may want to rethink entering into a serious relationship. Let me repeat, if you aren’t capable of putting your partner first and of honoring her place in your life, then you should not enter into a serious relationship until you’re prepared to do so.
Date in a superficial manner, have friends or casual safe sex partners, but DO NOT subject another human being to the toxicity of a HCP if you aren’t capable of protecting her from it through effective and rock solid boundaries.
These are choices you’ll eventually need to make.”
Wow – truer words have never been spoken. Of course, in the case of (a) the new woman should be a gentle soul and not some devil-in-disguise.
Another sad thing is when a man has only had relations with HCPs and has picked up some of their traits and begins to treat the kinder woman with similar tactics. That – I think is one of the most insidious sorrows, basically something Dr. T had written in her old blog about the ‘roadmap’ not being present for the man regarding what indeed is a healthy relationship?
I hate to admit this, but this post actually triggered an old wound, and made me cry. It was therapeutic in a way to cry…..but one of the hardest things is when you have loved a man incredibly, unconditionally, but he was so damaged by the HCPs in his past that he could not decipher accepting, unconditional love. And by the time he recognized it years later, and came to find you, you had moved on. Reminds me of the Norah Jones songs “Cold, cold heart”. they lyrics go something like this:
I’ve tried so hard my dear to show
That you’re my every dream
Yet you’re afraid each thing I do
Is just some evil scheme
A memory from your lonesome past
Keeps us so far apart
Why can’t I free your doubtful mind
And melt your cold cold heart
Another love before my time
Made your heart sad an’ blue
And so my heart is paying now
For things I didn’t do
In anger unkind words are said
That make the teardrops start
Why can’t I free your doubtful mind
And melt your cold cold heart
There was a time when I believed
That you belonged to me
But now I know your heart is shackled
To a memory
The more I learn to care for you
The more we drift apart
Why can’t I free your doubtful mind
And melt your cold cold heart
That is such a sad song and aptly describes what many a good woman and good man have experienced. Heartbreaking.
Very moving lyrics. So sad that so many can relate to them.
Sadly yes, right?
There are many versions of the song…the original was by country singer Hank Williams (there’s a youtube video) I guess the cowboy in the pic reminded me of that video. Not placing the link as comments with more than one link often go into spam.(Tony Bennet & Nat King Cole also did a version, so originally it was a guy song.) Then Aretha Franklin and Norah Jones did their versions – and Jones’ is a beautiful Jazz tune that really breaks one’s heart: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD2eGx8OzKs (though the guy version would probably me more appropriate for this site!)
I’d actually sent that to that man in my past when years later he tracked me down and told me how he had thrown away my naive caring unconditional love (he was my first love and I had given it my all then) because of the crazy manipulative women in his past who were constantly hovering around while I was with him. He begged me to come back. But I had moved on by that time and was in a steady relation with a good man and told that ex-boyfriend that “I’d never break someone else’s heart the way he had broken mine.” And that it was too late.
I also told him that “before you bring a new woman in your life make sure you have cleaned your emotional pipes with Draino and removed all the toxicity of those wicked women who played and damaged your heart so badly. I loved you a lot but I can no longer be your ‘free-shrink’, and had already been the dumping ground of all their venom for too long. Now let me be free and happy in my new life. Goodbye.” He had a super-feminist narc mother with a golden uterus complex and so he was already damaged – though very brilliant and talented. (Wish Shrink 4 Men existed back then! That mom would have won the Oscar for the GU complex.) He finally ended up with an angry feminist woman much like his mother, who is 16 years older than him (!!) and controls him with an iron grip. I guess some damages are permanent. With a narc mom and too many toxic HCP exes (who behaved just like you’ve outlined in the article) he didn’t stand a chance. Sadly so. I was an anomaly in his ‘pattern’ and paid dearly for it. I do believe however that most healthy men do stand a very good chance and like you’ve written – rediscover true happiness and freedom with a new loving woman, once they have enforced boundaries and discernment.
After that relation I always made sure that a man had a healthy mother before dating him, and that he had had a clean break from any crazy exes. Thankfully the mother of my second partner with who I stayed for many, many years and had an amicable parting years later was/is a true gem of a person and an exemplary woman in goodness, kindness and smarts.
Wish I’d known about all this before….I was very naive back then and could not understand how some grown women could be so manipulative and venomous. It would have hurt so much less and I wouldn’t have been such an eternal optimist thinking all the loving, accepting, kindness I kept pouring from my side would have helped. Or that my love and devotion to him would have overcome all the hurt he had faced before from others. Bah! ONLY boundaries and comprehension like that described in the article does. (and of course, changing our own ‘fixing’ compulsions.) Thanks, Peppy for writing this amazing post.
Thank YOU, for the comments and kind words.
Surprisingly abuse victims both male & female usually defend their abuser. Back when I was a cop in the U.S. Air Force (LONG time ago) it was not uncommon that we would go to a domestic situation where the person who was abused actually tries to prevent you from arresting the abuser. In the A F the abused doesn’t have to press charges.
One particular case there was this poor woman who had been badly beaten. We go to put her husband in handcuffs & she jumps on the back of my supervisor SCREAMING at the top of her lungs to “Get your hands off my husband”. She was also going for his weapon. It took two of us to restrain her. You would think that would be an isolated incident but was almost common.
I don’t know if it is some form of Stockholm Syndrome or what, but in many cases an abused person will defend their abuser. I think it probably happens more often when the abuser is an ex wife. I guess we men have it ingrained in our head that we are to be protectors. It shouldn’t apply when the ex wife was abusive but it often does. I had a crazy ex GF but I WAS NOT going to let her actions hurt others. In her case I just let her bury herself…lol
I wish you the best in the future.
Ron
Ron, I do think it is a form of Stockholm Syndrome. My husband covered up the verbal and emotional abuse he suffered in his marriage to his family and friends. Their “public” marriage was completely different from what was really going on behind closed doors. It’s frightening, really, when you think about it. It’s also very sad. Most partners of HCPs have been beaten down and criticized so often and with such, shall we say….passion, that it degrades their sense of self worth and esteem.
I wish you the best as well! Crazy free living to us all!
*stands and claps*
Excellent article. Oh I laughed at the “other woman” part.
His ex calls me that ALL the time. She won’t even refer to me by name even though we knew each other from before. She calls me all kinds of fun names, and started a smear campaign against me painting me as a liar and mentally unstable. She accused me of convincing him to leave her, and tells him, “I don’t want MY children around such a morally unstable woman.”
She even got to his sister who took him to lunch and pretty much spouted verbatim a DARVO conversation she had with his ex. His sister was pretty shocked when he told her that “The OTHER, morally unstable woman she’s talking about is kinder to my children than she is.”
Never ceases to amaze me.
In the beginning she tried to refuse to let him see his kids if I were at his house before (I’m guessing her lawyer) explained that she couldn’t do this without proof that I was an immediate danger to the kids.
It takes tough woman to stand by her man post HCP divorce. There is a lot of change, and drama…and even more growth, give and take. I find it amazing to see the changes in him as he puts up boundaries and starts developing as an empowered individual. It isn’t easy, but I’m more than willing and happy to support him as we rebuild.
Thank you again for the great read!
You’re the “other woman” too? I wasn’t aware that the “other woman” could be the 12th woman you dated since a split, but apparently that is the lucky contestant number according to my husband’s HCP Ex. Yes, I was contestant #12 and still, to this day, she refers to me as “the other woman”. I think this is to imply that she is still the main woman. All women are “other women” in her mind. She also has referred to me, to my husband as, “Your Barbie wife.” She means this as an insult. I call my husband Ken (not his name).
I am especially fond of being referred to as, “Your Whore.”
It seems to help them protect their delicate egos to turn the women who their exs really love into she-devils. Project, much?
Obviously, much of this has to do with jealousy, but I think it goes deeper than that.
I think the HCP/APDI/BPD/NPD/HPD/ABCDEFGHIJK… exes become unhinged when they see their former partners become better men after their involvement with the Crazy has ended.
So many of my clients blossom after they break free. They’re happier. Oftentimes, their careers get back on track. They resume their social lives. In other words, they become the kind of men their exes always wanted them to be, but could never bring out in them. It should be a no brainer that if you consistently tear a man down, he will break down. This is something the abusive exes don’t seem to understand (and probably never will).
I think it galls the Crazy to know end that their exes often thrive with “the other women.”
@Micksbabe – LOL. Yes! I’m pretty sure I should get a t-shirt that says, “The Other Woman” on it just for fun.
@Peppy – I totally agree. I am guessing more than half the stuff she accuses me of, is actually what she is doing/feeling/thinking. But well all know she is perfect and not to blame for anything so SOMEONE has to be the bad guy. So, I guess to her and hers…I’m a homewrecker.
@Dr. T – This is J to a ‘t’. His work WAS suffering and he is now quickly excelling. He is happy and has started hanging out with friends again. He even started playing music again after over 5 years. All it took was someone believing in him instead of kicking him down. Amazing how that works.
: )
You’re right….once you learn to recognize the projections, you can really gain insight into their own behaviors, feelings, and twisted ways of thinking. They very often accuse others of their own shortcomings. My husbands ex used to like to label me immature, insecure, and accused me of “not having a clue” about parenthood. Yea. Right back at you, CRAZY LADY. 🙂
It must be a common pattern among CRAZIES!!!!…lol The psycho Ex GF I have talked about here many times showed this barely into a relationship. Suddenly any woman I ever dated, had a relationship with or even said “Hi nice day” to started being called that “whore, slut” etc. A personal fav of mine was “that skank” Talk about the pot calling the kettle black..lol
On one episode she called my ex wife, who while we were divorced was a really good woman that I had no animosity toward “that whore you were married to”. When I asked her to please not refer to her that way she went BALLISTIC!!! This was about a month before I dumped her & ran like hell. I told her that up until you I never dated women of low caliber. That I wouldn’t have even dated you if you had shown this trait when we met. Then I had to duck from an ashtray wizzing by my head 😛
Anyway guys a BIG RED FLAG!! If your dating a woman & any woman no matter how good from your past starts being called that “whore, slut, skank, nasty etc etc. Then there is a REALLY GOOD CHANCE your GF is HCP. RUN for the hills 🙂
Ron
Ron,
“Run for the hills” might be the best advice yet. It’s so straightforward, yet also so helpful.
How many, many times my husband and I have gone over and over the “whys” of “why” he stayed, married her, and then agreed to have a child with her. Why oh why.
But now we have grown to understand it, and that is one of the most important steps in healing. He really has changed over the years. He no longer feels that he “owes” her anything, even if she is the mother of his eldest child. Some people are toxic and are best left behind. Run, indeed.
“Separate lives means separate.”
This one is huge. My exgf and and the woman who’s now my wife overlapped for approximately 3 months. My exgf was back on her second Hoovering expedition when I met my wife. At some point, I told my wife that my exgf was back in town and we’d occaisonally hang out together. It was obvious my wife felt threatened by the presence of the exgf and I may have to make a choice. My wife was afraid that she’d get emotionally invested and I’d dump her and go back to the exgf. Unbeknownst to her, that had historical precedence.
My exgf figured out I was seeing someone in about 3 weeks. That conversation is a classic. The exgf said, “I want to meet her.” My response was, “Nothing good can come of that.” Aside from putting my new relationship at risk, allowing that to happen would be siding with the exgf over the new gf. I didn’t make a lot of good decisions but that was one of them.
Many people are in situations that don’t allow for just cutting the ex off. I was lucky in two respects. First, no kids and no co-mingled assets allowed me to cut her off. I was in no way “bound” to the exgf anymore. Second, her pathology accepted it. My exgf could have made a pest of herself but didn’t and for that, I’m grateful.
I’m glad for you and your now-wife that the exgf went away willingly. If she hadn’t, you would have been forced to make a decision, and hopefully you would have made a good one. I don’t think you have to be grateful to the ex, though. I think you should be grateful to your wife. 🙂
I have a question regarding when is the appropriate time to introduce your new partner to your children? In my case, my HCP ex has added to the complication by engaging in a very effective parental alienation plan with my son. I’m certain that parental alienation is reasonably common when dealing with a HCP ex. This does however make my relationship with my teenage son more complicated. Sadly when I first started my divorce process, my ex, with the help of the family court system, allowed her to get a good stronghold in the programming and alienation of my son. My ex accused me of abuse (later proved unfounded), isolated me from my son by not allowing visitation (until my son’s court appointed child psychologist said that there is absolutely no reason for me to be separated and not have visitation with my son), and accused me of abandoning the family and never calling my son on the phone (both proven in court to be untrue). With these types of accusations, the legal system often errors on the side of being cautious and protecting the children from the accused abuser. When I eventually got in front of a judge, he took a cautious approach to have a child psychologist evaluate what was going on. By the time I was on the judge’s calendar for my next hearing, it was approximately six months of separation from my son. The child psychologist defended me in court and said that I was a good Dad and of absolutely no threat or harm to my son and should be allowed regular visitation, but this was more than enough time (over 6 months) for my ex to establish solid roots for her alienation plan. After all of these allegations were proved false, the court just pretended like nothing happened, oopsie, you now can have regular visitation with your son. At this point, much of the damage has been done. It’s really an uphill battle. The alienator has a six month head start and the legal system has demonstrated that they really don’t want to punish her. What I’ve discovered is what happened to me is actually fairly common when your ex is a HCP person. So after working through many of these issues with my son’s psychologist, our relationship has improved, but the war is not over. When I say war, I really mean war. My ex hasn’t given up her parental alienation campaign. If anything, she has stepped it up and gotten more covert. She is smart enough to cover her tracks. She is also still closely aligned to my son. My son struggles with loyalty to his mom. He wants to be her protector (my ex plays the victim better than anyone I know) from the big bad wolf (a.k.a. me). He also knows it’s unpopular to enjoy or like his father. It pains me to see my son shut down his emotions when it’s time to go back to my ex. It’s common that just a few hours earlier he could be laughing or very chatty, but his pickup time approaches he becomes sullen and uncommunicative. Sadly my son’s psychologist is very hesitant on calling my ex on her bad behaviors. He says that he is worried that by calling her on them, he’ll lose any support for therapy from her and strengthen her resolve to undermine anything achieved in therapy.
I know this was a bit much of a back story, but I wanted to provide it as I find that my experience is a lot more common than I originally understood. I believe that there are several people like me who have had similar experiences. Getting back to the question of when it’s appropriate to introduce your new partner to children, I wanted to add the backdrop of some of the typical complications. I understand that it’s probably not good to introduce your children to everyone you date. It should be someone of significance. It’s also good to do this when your children are ready for it. This is more difficult when you throw in the parental alienation factor. I believe that somewhere down the road, it will be beneficial for my son to see a healthy relationship modeled for him, but it’s hard to know how far down the road that should be? So what are some of the guidelines or good rules of thumb when walking down this difficult path? Any advice or guidance would certainly be appreciated.
George
George, you mention that your son is a teenager. How old is he? And how long ago was the divorce?
My son is 15 years old. I’ve been divorced for two years.
First of all, I want to say that I have a lot of empathy for you. I have had a “front row seat” to the very heart breaking process of parental alienation. My stepson is also 15 years old, and his mother has slowly but surely given him toxic messages about his father every step of the way since their divorce 13 years ago.
I will freely acknowledge that re-coupling will likely result in even more “messages” from your ex to your son about how you are abandoning him (read: them, as she experiences them as a package deal). The main challenge with HCPs is that they often are incapable of seeing their children as separate from themselves, and they project all their angst and inner turmoil onto the child(ren).
I think it’s important that you keep the lines of communication open with your son in whatever ways make sense for your situation. If you are very serious about someone you are dating, then you can tell him. Let him respond, try not to be defensive. Does he know that you are dating?
At this point, I’ve kept my dating separate from him, especially in the fragile beginnings of reestablishing my relationship back with my son. It’s pretty scary just how much damage can be done in a short amount of time, and how much time and effort is required to repair that damage. My relationship with my son is still fragile and definitely not perfect. The parental alienation campaign is ongoing. My ex does her best to try to undermine any progress made with my son. My son is being manipulated. My ex knows that using my son is a very effective weapon to be used to punish me. My girlfriend has been very understanding through all of this. She is very supportive and wants it to happen when it is best for my son. It’s just really tough to know when that might be.
It is tough to know when the time is right. Perhaps you could start with just casually letting your son know that you are seeing someone special. See how he reacts. Only you and your girlfriend can really decide whether this is a band-aid best torn off quickly or slowly. But it does eventually have to come off.
Peppy,
You write, “Some divorcees continue to celebrate holidays and special occasions such as birthdays with their HCP ex. This, in my opinion, is a sure fire way to stay single. I suggest you re-think that approach if you’re interested in finding and keeping a new partner.”
Assuming the man can do…say a birthday dinner for one of the kids…with the ex without it causing distress for him or drama in general, I don’t see why it’s an automatic no-no. Can you (or others) elaborate?
JP
@jp
You are talking about amicable break-ups. No such exsist with a HCP.
Celebratins special occasions with your HCP-ex will just keep the bonds alive and prolong the process of ridding yourself of the venom and influence he/she has on you. And when you do find a new partner he or she will be the one to blame when you stop celebrating together, and your children will also get that impression.
Sever all bonds asap. Never, ever prolong anything.
I can celebrate special occasions with my ex, and that is bonding in a good way. Showing the kids that we all get along and are friends. My DH was invitet by his HCP-ex to celebrate, but even the invitation came with a bad smell. You could literally hear her whine through the email. When he reclined all hell broke loose and the children got a new story about how much their father didn´t care and just wanted to spend christmas with me and my kids.
It never occured to her that he´d LOVE to spend it with his kids, but that her presense made it impossible.
Very true. My first wife & I had an amiacable split. No kids helped but we still send each other a birthday & Christmas card. I am a lucky guy in that she & my beloved wife met & they really like each other. Also my beloved doesn’t have a jealous bone in her body. Well neither of them do. As a Drummer in a Rock Band having a jealous woman in your life doesn’t work. The business by it’s nature draws attention from fans. Some of those are female. Anyway I digress…lol Kinda strange for me though when the ex & mu beloved talk & email. I’m worried they compare notes…HA! 😛
Whereas the last thing I would ever want to happen would be for my beloved and that psycho ex gf to have to cross paths. I would actually be afraid that the ex gf would assault her. So their is a HUGE difference when it is a good split & you are dealing with sane rational people.
JP,
I agree with the other responses, and would like to add to them.
I think that when BOTH ex partners are comfortable with such an arrangement, no longer hold false hopes for reconcilliation, and fully embrace the concept that they are there FOR THE CHILDREN, then it can work.
In my experience, with my husband’s HCP ex, it’s never really about the child. It’s always about her, even when she’s pretending it’s about the child. So, that made joint celebrations just one more way for her to gain an audience with my husband and an opportunity to further attempt to manipulate him. It wasn’t healthy for him.
Additionally, she made it VERY clear to him that I was an intruder in “their family” (yes, she felt they were still a family even after the divorce) and that while he was always welcome, I was never welcome. Yet, I had a good relationship with my husband’s child through spending time with them when SS was with his Dad. It doesn’t add up, right? That’s because it’s not about having Dad there for the celebration FOR THE CHILD. It’s about having Dad there for the celebration FOR HER. Two very different things.
I hope that made sense.
Peppy,
Thank you so much for this. Though it hurt a little with the “transitional relationship” description, because there were too many times where I felt I was putting him back together only for him to break up with me and return to her, it was needed.
I was the other woman but referred to as “her”. When he broke up with his HCP GF and started to hang out with me she would comment on all of the times we would be together. Even saying things that -she- felt like the other woman and a whore because he spent time with me.
“If you aren’t capable of putting your new partner first and honoring her place in your life, then you may want to rethink entering into a serious relationship.”
Yes. Yes. and very much yes! You and if correct Mellaril in an older post on the board said the same thing and it hit a huge cord with me. After the first time he left me to go to her, then broke up and tried to patch things with me I told him that he needed to cut her out of his life. I thought it sank in but unfortunately after the next successful hoover by her our relationship was downgraded. I went from being a friend to girlfriend, but not with her around, to being ‘just a friend’ when she would try and get him to admit he was seeing me when they were apart and had feelings for me (ie have some sort of leverage over him). And it hurt even when I understood he was trying not to fuel her tantrum and save himself, but being thrown under the bus (too many times and I feel stupid recounting them) hurt more than the break up. It felt that all of what I could give didn’t matter because he had no boundaries with her, and because how I felt and wanted it to work didn’t develop any with him. (my big mistake)
Also thank you Closure for the song and your words. My heart goes out to you for him realizing so late, but glad that you continued to grow and find happiness. I really hope to do the same even though I still care.
Keep up the great articles and comments, they are all so very helpful!
Thank you Thank you Thank you all for this! This artcle, and most of the comments sound like they came straight outta my life
I am the wife of a wonderful man. My dear husband, bless his heart, set solid, immovable boundaries with his HCP ex early on. Her history included false abuse allegations, infidelity, financial recklessness, and a ludicrous sense of entitlement- I am thinking Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She alienated him from his two kids by his first wife by threatening to divorce him of he continued visitation. She kicked him out to move another man into the home,, yet believed he had no right to move on with his life. She demanded money constantly. He gave her his entire income tax refund eleven years ago when she and their kids became homeless, yet she wasted the money on partying. The kids ended up in state custody when they should have been given to their dad. Every time he moved into a new neighborhood, she stalked him. Once she even moved into the same building! Her boyfriend beat her up, but she had her ex-husband arrested because she was angry about money. He had a live-in girlfriend at the time and was minding his business. She had interfered in every relationship he was in after their divorce, and their daughter played along.
My husband set solid boundaries with Crazy. She was no longer allowed to come into his apartment. He changed his cell phone number and carrier to prevent her from haranguing him with phone calls to ask for money. His kids were 19 and 21, so he made a policy of communicating with them directly.
Early in our relationship, I took my daughter on a ten-day vacation to visit my widowed mother in another state. My sweetheart and I communicated by phone and Facebook daily. The day of my homecoming, he took me on a date. His ex kept driving by, circling like a vulture. We decided to get to the restaurant by a different route. When we were walking back toward his place, she cornered us. She had their 21 year old son in the truck with her. She said he had to help his son move. My partner said no. She had expected him to get in the truck with her and leave me to walk home alone. He showed me in a concrete, unmistakable way that he loved me and was putting me first.
Last winter, I brought painstakingly handmade, beautiful red velvet cupcakes to his daughter’s baby shower, which the ex-wife was hosting. She threw them away and served a store-bought substitute. Pathetic. I thought petty jealousy was for juveniles. She told the other guests that I was her ex-husband’s girlfriend, although he had already proposed to me and I’d accepted. She was publicly called on her omission. Her boyfriend of eight years broke up with her soon after. I guess he figured that her ex-husband wasn’t a monster after all.
She called him a liar when he told her niece, who was taking a ride with her last April, that we were getting married in May. She told her former mother-in-law that he shoudn’t marry me.
She is dating a man only 18 years old. She is 42. She and this man’s mother spread rumors that I used to smoke pot with them (I’m Straight Edge and never associated with them) and that I am only using my husband to regain custody of my younger son from foster care (behavioral issues of ASD child, not abuse). Wrong. I love my husband dearly, and so does my son. I would never disrupt that bond.
You are right, Doctor. Time means nothing to an HCP.