This applies to male narcissists, too, as well as Borderlines, Histrionics and Sociopaths of both genders. This is undoubtedly no surprise to many of you reading this. I just didn’t want anyone to feel excluded. You know how touchy they get about these kinds of things.
Oftentimes at the end of a relationship with this kind of individual, after she or he has emotionally, psychologically or physically bludgeoned you in spectacular fashion, they’ll tell you with a straight face and all sincerity that they would like to stay friends.
Friends. Do I really need to say it?
With friends like that you don’t need enemies.
Narcissists (and other Unidentified Flying Crazies) are incapable of being your friend. Heck, they’re typically their own worst enemy in addition to being your worst enemy. They are remorseless emotional vampires, predators, conmen and conwomen, liars, cheats and, generally speaking, scumbags.
Don’t fall for her or his tales of victimhood. Even if some of their victim stories are true. It explains their behaviors it doesn’t excuse them. Plus, when a Narcissist or a Borderline is caterwauling about how they’re being “victimized” it probably just means someone or something is holding them accountable for his or her douchey behavior.
Don’t believe the crocodile tears as she attempts to feign remorse either. (*Some of them do manage to squeeze out a few saline secretions when all else fails). As Rhett Butler said to Scarlett O’Hara in Gone With the Wind, “You’re like the thief who isn’t the least bit sorry he stole, but is terribly, terribly sorry he’s going to jail.” Narcissists, Borderlines, Histrionics, Sociopaths and Psychopaths are sorry when they experience consequences for their hurtful behavior, they’re not sorry they hurt you. There’s a difference. Actually, it’s more like a hybrid of outrage, shock, self-pity and rage rather than true regret or remorse.
Given all of the above and much, much more (please see entire Shrink4Men website, forum and original blog), how can you possibly believe one of these individuals when she or he tells you they want to be your friend or some variation on that?
Whatever you think the Narcissist or Borderline might mean is not what they mean. It doesn’t mean he or she still cares about you or has some new found emotional maturity and integrity. No, no, no.
What Crazy means by “friends” is that she or he wants you to agree to let them reserve the right to feed off of you (a narcissistic supply source) in the future. Right now, she or he has places to go and fresh supply to feed upon, but somewhere down the road, at her or his convenience and leisure, they might want to double, triple or quadruple dip back into your supply.
Think about it. She or he already knows you and your hopes and fears (i.e., how to manipulate you), which makes you excellent back-up supply should they want attention or to triangulate you with their most recent target or exploit you in some way — financially, business-wise, networking, childcare and so on and so forth. It’s less work to exploit you rather than seek out and groom fresh supply. Plus there’s the added bonus of duping delight!
What a Narcissist, Borderline, Sociopath or other High-Conflict Personality means when she or he wants to be friends or is trying to Hoover you back into a relationship is that they think you’re that gullible, stupid or desperate to be with them that you’ll allow them to use and abuse you again and again.
One gentlemen on the Shrink4Men Forum received an email from his ex-Crazy with the subject line, “Friends?” No text in the email, just a one-word query in the subject header. For those of you who might be thinking, “What’s wrong with that? Maybe she feels bad about how they parted ways, maybe she really does want to be friends” you are wrong. Dead wrong.
This is a highly streamlined and efficient fishing expedition — designed by German engineers efficient and streamlined. It’s the BMW of bait. And that’s what it is. It’s chum in the water, so don’t be a chump and bite on it.
It’s vague enough for the interpretation to mean anything — maybe she wants to get back together, maybe she wants to be friends, maybe she’s just seeing if you’re still mad at her or if you’ll still take the bait. Whatever you think it means doesn’t matter. If you respond, she can tell you that’s not what she meant and feel superior to you. It also has plausible deniability with a dollop of “If he doesn’t reply I can tell all my friends and family what an unforgiving, immature, hateful jerk he is.”
Twisted, but cunning.
Don’t be fooled, flattered, hopeful or touched by your abuser’s feeble and lame offer to be friends or to do you some favor. And just stop for a moment and think about that! Why would you even consider being friends with someone you believe abused you horribly, blames you for it and has very little chance of ever changing? It’s like inviting an unrepentant arsonist into your home after rebuilding from the last fire they set and handing them a book of matches and a can of gasoline. They’ll just burn your house down again.
This person is not your friend, never was your friend and is not capable of being a friend. Ever. Therefore, don’t expend time and energy wondering what she or he means when they call, email or text about being friends, meeting to have closure, etc. Ignore their entreaties. Whatever it is they want it isn’t in your best interests. You’ll be much better off spending your time and energy with people who are actually capable of being friends.
Counseling with Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD
Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD helps individuals work through their relationship and codependency issues via telephone or Skype. She specializes in helping men and women trying to break free of an abusive relationship, cope with the stress of an abusive relationship or heal from an abusive relationship. Coaching individuals through high-conflict divorce and custody cases is also an area of expertise. She combines practical advice, emotional support and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Schedule a Session page for more information.
Want to Say Goodbye to Crazy? Buy it HERE.
If you’re really lucky, they may keep you around as their “Best Friend” which entitles you to even more “privileges!”
Remove the “R” from “Friend” and you get a more accurate idea of what they mean and what you’re likely to get for turning the other cheek.
Here’s my recent experience. After her meeting a guy within a week of me leaving her, the big wedding was on a year later, she weaponised the new victim and successfully triangulated us.
This guy completely believed her, and was faced with much aggression from him when collecting my children and delivering at her new home, he verbally attacked me in the street one evening and he utterly despised me, saying stuff like “you beat a little woman, you scum coward” etc you can imagine…my kids were inside when this took place having returned them two days later, lots of expletives and invectives flying.
I recorded the abuse, she stood in the background trying to appear innocent but was actually passive aggressive in her body language and behaviour.
I had 3 periods of contact denial, 3 court dates, every time she was ordered to re commence contact by the judge.
It was hell not seeing or hearing from my kids 2-3 months at a time. The courts never punished her and therefore the abuse by proxy continued.
Fast forward to 2015, he’s left her, I moved a 100 miles to be nearer my children. She says to me one day, she’s been to places we went together, I have an interest in historic aviation. She started buying films etc and talking about it more, expressing remorse that we can’t do things like that anymore.
I glossed over it and ignored it, changing the subject
Then she says “look, I think it’s better for the kids if we get along better for their sakes” a few weeks later…
I think, “my god, the penny’s dropped!”. She seemed very genuine, but also aware of her history, I took the opportunity to collect my kids from school some days, she even invited me to eat with them some evenings at her house.
All seemed to be going well, when one evening she’s been at the vodka, I was making tea in her kitchen, when she asked for “a cuddle” You know you want to she says…
I froze with my arms straight down thinking “Oh no..”
I knew at this point, after she revealed her hand, I would be back to where I was…
She took extreme offence when I rebuffed her, after I said “I thought we were being friendly for the kid’s sakes”
That was it, flew in to insta-rage mode, swearing, cussing, saying “What would I want you for, just being friendly, you disgust me” and so on…
I left shortly after , and the abuse continued, no more collecting kids from school, no more visits, nor phone contact, but still had kids with me at weekends.
This eventually stopped too. I last saw my kids in April on the eve if my son’s 6th birthday. She allowed me an hour to deliver his gifts and a card and stay for an hour. They were so happy to see me ( hadn’t seen them for 3 weeks by this point)
I left and outside my kids were waving at me from an upstairs window, shouting “Love you daddy” blowing kisses, repeating until I reached the street corner and went out of sight.
I haven’t seen them since that day, and I sent a letter to each of my children shortly afterwards. I did get a reply from my 8 year old daughter, and it was the most upsetting but heatwarming letter I ever read.
My daughter is literally begging me to come and see them, covered in hearts and kisses, “My daddy” on the front, begging me to call them.
Heatwrenching, particularly as after I left, she sent a text saying ” Kids don’t want anymore contact”
Surreal!
She has been in trouble with Social Services Child Protection….She was hanging with drug (cocaine) dealers and boasted to other girls she had a threesome one night. Another night she claimed another guy had ‘raped’ her…
I went to see the police investigation team and said I believe there will be a miscarriage of justice. They lstened, I told them of the false alegations of DV etc. The police officer told me at that point she’s read any history pertaining to me and other men in her life. She let it slip that she’d called the police alleging DV from her other husbands, including the guy giving me hell she recently married ( for want of a better word ) AND other boyfriends…This is the same person who told me she had slept with just one guy before me, her first husband, who had been beating her too…
That said it all to me, the police officer kind of filled in all the blanks..
Social Services accepted her ‘profound apology’ saying she was vulnerable after her last husband left…That was it, they withdrew their interest in my children’s welfare following this.
Since then she’s had 3 more boyfriends , of course introduced to my children immediately!
Current FB status of hers: In a relationship.
To cap my misery even further, I had a job after I moved up to her village, and rented a smalk 2 bed cottage. I was able to find a room, but nowhere for my belongings, basically the last stuff I had in the world, before the ‘cuddle’ incident, she allowed me to store some of my things in her attic.
Since my rebuttal, she told me if I don’t remove it by the end of next week, my things are going to the dump.
She told me she has guys with a truck and it’s all going. The deadline came and went, I tried desperately to find someone who may help store it, but no one could do it, I had no money for storage as I’d lost my job ( company went bust) and lost my rented cottage.
There were family photos in the attic, pictures of my departed parents and other priceless photos, it’s all gone, forever.
Am now renting a room from my brother 75 miles away and have a job here, waiting to get her into court again…
Yes I was hoovered. Yes I was sucked in by her convincing tone, yes I am stupid.
Don’t feel bad. Narcs are great at what they do. Sometimes you can get them to slip up in a rage though. With kids, you’ll have to set extremely firm boundaries! Don’t believe any of her mirroring either. That’s what always tricked me into staying, and after about a week or two, she would revert to her hateful old self. She would then insult me for stuff that I liked. It’s like she wanted to be kind like me, but she would hate herself too bad to be that way for long.
I still feel bad for my narc… She literally lost her mind when I split, but I did mess up pretty bad… I don’t think I should have told her that I was going to ‘abandon’ her. I literally set off a time bomb when I did that. Now she tried to press charges, but I’m worried that she went over the edge this time. She knew that this fight involved her pulling a weapon in ‘self-defense’, and I got hurt when I grabbed it and ran! I was scared that she was going to hurt herself or me in her panicked state! I’m starting to wonder if she intentionally left out that part because she wanted to be punished? Can some NPD/prof victims be self-effacing too?
She still doesn’t realize that I care for her, and I just want to divorce without one or both of us in jail or hurt too bad emotionally. They told me they didn’t see a reason they could press charges, and I have connections with the local cops’ boss. So I’m hoping they can drop this, but I told her that I didn’t want to do this. Maybe I should have been more graceful in my exit? I know it’s not my fault, but I still feel bad for her. She seems to seriously not know what she is doing! When I got upset, I could always calm down with space. She actually gets worse. 🙁
Has anyone else had a wife go into self-destruct mode during a split? I’m trying to figure out how to get her to calm some before she does serious damage to herself and kids. I will be fine tbh. I know I will. I just want her to be ok in the end too…
After being in a relationship with a man who can’t seem to let go of a relationship with one of these abusive, narcissistic, generally crazy women, I can say that everything in this article is absolutely true.
My ex and I had been *actual* friends for ten years and had worked together for five. Throughout our friendship, he had been in a tumultuous on-again-off-again relationship with a controlling (I believe personality-disordered) woman. Last year, she dumped him and immediately started dating some other guy (whom my ex suspected she had been cheating with before she actually broke up with him). He and I started hanging out more (she had always been threatened by our friendship, so she prevented him from hanging out with me too much), and he revealed that he had romantic feelings for me basically the entire time he had been stuck with her, but he never tried to pursue anything because he didn’t feel he deserved me and he didn’t want to cheat on his gf.
This woman did not deserve his loyalty considering she physically abused him, invited herself to move into his house for almost a decade and made him support her financially, would kick him out of the car when he did something she didn’t like and would force him to walk home, essentially stole thousands of dollars from his parents with no intention of paying them back, destroyed his sister’s condo when she was living there during one of the breakups and never took any responsibility for it, manipulated him into staying with her by taking a bottle of pills and calling him to come save her- the list goes on and on. She plays off of my ex’s sense of shame and obligation. I suspect a lot of this comes from the fact that he was sexually abused by an uncle when he was a child and there seem to be a lot of dysfunctional dynamics within his family.
Anyway, our friendship grew into a romantic relationship and we became a couple. From the very beginning, the crazy was still in the picture under the guise of being my ex’s “bestie” as she put it. Even after dumping him for another guy, she wanted to be “friends” with my ex because she couldn’t live without him in her life. My ex’s neighbor told me that he once mentioned that any girl he dated had to accept this woman in his life because she had been in it so long, and he would not date someone who wouldn’t…uh, red flag. This woman, while dating another man, didn’t understand why she couldn’t continue living in his house while he was dating me. He was able to get her to start staying somewhere else, but in the entire time we were dating, she never moved all of her stuff out (because of course she had no real intention of leaving).
Shortly after we began dating, she confronted him because he was spending too much time with me, you know, his girlfriend. By this time, her new bf must have figured out what a psycho she was because he ran for the hills. My ex asked if she could hang out with us because she was depressed and had no friends other than him. She would barge into his house unannounced like she owned the place. We would sometimes come back to his place from somewhere and she would be sitting on his couch watching tv waiting for us. She invited herself along a lot when we would go on dates and would even dictate what *we* should do that weekend. Now, I am not a moron or a doormat, so literally the ONLY reason I put up with this bullshit is because, frankly, this woman does not intimidate me- at all. I see how truly pathetic she is. I am independent, strong, caring, and I just recently earned my Ph.D. She is a 300 lb. toddler who is a professional victim and pretends to be helpless to take advantage of people. I also didn’t want to play into her game of making ME look like a psycho, jealous girlfriend. She even pulled me aside one time and told me that I could always say no when she asked us to hang out. Conveniently, she never *asked* to hang out- she would just show up. Obviously, the longer this went on, the more annoying it became.
To make a very long story short, one day, my boyfriend (whom I believe suffers from seasonal depression) asked to meet with me and told me that he “wasn’t feeling what he thought he should feel” for me, and he couldn’t explain why. In the midst of this serious talk, the psycho of course barged in his house and wanted to know what was going on. He couldn’t even break up with me without her interfering! He got her to leave and I asked him, “Does she know that you’re having doubts about us?” He said no and that it was none of her business. I asked if he was breaking up with me and he said he didn’t know. After a couple of weeks of giving him some space, I contacted him and he was very cold and angry with me. I reminded him that he never actually broke up with me, and he replied, “Yeah, that was ambiguous. I don’t want to date anymore.” I said, “We’ve been friends for ten years. What, are we just not going to talk anymore?” He said, “You’ll just manipulate me back into a relationship and I’ll do it because I’m weak, and I’ll be unhappy.” All of this was really confusing to me, and he said he was confused by it himself since I had never shown any indication of being a manipulative person. I left since he refused to be rational and we have not spoken since. I found out that almost immediately after we broke up he begged the psycho to come back to him and she moved back in (not that she ever really left). I heard from his neighbor that they were together for about 3 months and then she dumped him…again. He put all of her crap in garbage bags and threw them on the lawn (because of course she was planning on continuing to live there after dumping him) and he told her that all she does is make him miserable. He scrounged up an old bar buddy on FB and started dating her, and from the start, the psycho suddenly decided she wanted him back and made it her mission to break them up. She did the classic love bombing- dramatic FB posts on his and her pages, declarations of love and how she hurt him because she thought she wasn’t making him happy (yeah right), and she showed up at his house and read some ridiculous list of something like 33 promises she wanted to make about how she would change and if they got back together it would be forever, blah blah. Apparently it worked because I heard he dumped the new gf and got back together with crazy who moved right back in (after being in a car wreck and made my ex wait on her hand and foot).
The thing I still struggle with is what I should do if I run into my ex (I just have this feeling that it will happen down the road). I go back and forth between whether I would ignore him/them and let him lie in the bed he has made for himself OR say something to him and encourage him to accept that he needs help and that maybe he should not be with me, but he 100% shouldn’t be with her- a woman who has abused him and treated him like an ATM for a decade. He told his neighbor that he feels like shit for what he did to me, but he feels too ashamed to face me to apologize. As much as he has hurt me, I don’t want him to be stuck in this misery forever, and his “bestie” is certainly not going to encourage him to get help because it’s in her best interest to keep him feeling weak and guilty. Thanks to anyone who reads this. This has been the most effed situation I have ever been involved in, and I can’t help feeling like it had virtually nothing to do with me. Thanks Dr. T for your advice and support for those of us who get caught in the cyclone of crazy.
It’s sad that your friend seems to be “addicted” to the crazy. And that’s the element that is sometimes missing on this website–why do so many people seem attracted to these predators? I’ve made mistakes in relationships too but I’ve learned from them.
I think what this does is enable all of these crazies to act out this craziness. They know that sooner or later they’ll find someone who’s so needy that they will accept their terrible antics. I’ve had to dump a couple of these crazies myself and they are always so shocked, so completely blindsided that someone would actually not tolerate their abuse, it’s dumbfounding. They are convinced that I secretly want them back. Ultimately I have to block all contact, because they simply don’t believe that anyone would dump them for being crazy. They are special, special flowers and your friend and others like him help these types maintain that illusion about themselves.
I’m sorry for your friend, but until he finally decides he has truly had enough there’s nothing you can do for him. All you can really do is stay away until he comes to his senses.
I don’t think Crazy will hoover me. As a friend said to me “she has more than enough people to abuse.” I also don’t think she’ll hoover me because I think she realizes the amount of dirt I have on her, and probably thinks I’ll use it to destroy her (because that’s what she’d do) I’ve also seen how she can hold grudges, and so I think it’s more likely she’ll have an extreme hatred of me for the rest of her life.
In fact, I can see a bit of my own behavior in what Dr. T. wrote, as I was trying to figure things out and get closure. Turns out, getting closure / resolving conflict was best done by getting away from her.
I can remember days after her first major rage episode I apologized for setting her off (yeah, yeah, I know) but also told her her behavior was unacceptable and hurtful. I gave her an opportunity to end the friendship right then and there. Her response “Honestly, we’re still friends, but the more you bring this up, the more you’re annoying me, so just drop it.”
These women absolutely cannot handle having their behavior called into question in any way shape or form, and the “we’re still friends” was just a means of keeping me engaged because she wasn’t done tearing into me yet.
Whenever a client feels mystified (or even hurt) that their ex-Crazy isn’t trying to Hoover him or her, I tell them to consider themselves lucky. When you’re trying to kick a drug habit you’re better off not having a dealer who makes house calls, stalks you, offers you free drugs, etc. There is peace and healing to be found in No Contact if you can ride out the initial discomfort, pain and withdrawal from the codependency.
I hope you’re right about your ex-Crazy not Hoovering you, jza. But you just never know. I’ve worked with clients whose exes have resurfaced after 10 or 20 years. Usually via Facebook, which is of course “the devil” 😉
6 weeks short of 25 years.
After the shock wore off, I’m kind of flattered she could still spell my name.
Weird, my handle is jza80 here but jza70 on the forum. Don’t know how I managed to screw that up. At first I was extremely hurt with the way things ended and how outright callous she was. That said, I agree with you Dr. T. I’m damn glad she hasn’t tried to Hoover me. If you’re right and she tries later, well I have deleted her contact info and her mothers contact info from my phone, blocked her e-mail address and phone number, we both blocked eachother on Facebook, I blocked her on Instagram etc. etc.
“There is peace and healing to be found in No Contact if you can ride out the initial discomfort, pain and withdrawal from the codependency.”
I think the hardest part is going from talking with someone almost daily, for years…..to nothing. Once that starts wearing off I started thinking clearly and got down to just how unhealthy the dynamic really was. After the fact was when I started recognizing all of the red flags and whacked out behavior I’d missed. Lots of “ah ha!” and “oh….wow!” realizations.
Their use of Facebook is nuts. She would passive aggressively attack me in comments on mutual friends posts, she would get angry with me and block me, then unblock me, start “tagging” me acting decent, then get angry again when I responded. Accuse me of “stalking” her on FB in a conversation that she had initiated with me via FB chat. At the end she used FB to send her “posse” after me and one of my close friends.
” It’s like inviting an unrepentant arsonist into your home after rebuilding from the last fire they set and handing them a book of matches and a can of gasoline. They’ll just burn your house down again.”
Fantastic quote. Great visual metaphor for exactly what that experience can be like.
Thanks Dr. T. As always, your wisdom on these matters is spot on.
Thank you, OWB (great username, btw!) I appreciate the kind words.
I just want to say thank you for another great article, Tara. I look at your website every couple of weeks when I feel the pang and maddening confusion over my BPD-ex creeping up, and your articles always straighten my head to help me get on with my day. I cut off and blocked all contact with her 7 months ago. Your articles help eradicate any doubt I may have that I didn’t do the right thing. Monthly suicide threats, cutting, emotional manipulation and abuse… my life is better without that shit! Thank you again for this great resource.
I miss my avatar from the old site, is that strange? I really enjoyed hiding behind that xmas tree….
These web pages have been incredibly helpful to clarify relationship issues over the last 2-3 years of getting Crazy Free.
This bit REALLY rings true…. “when a Narcissist or a Borderline is caterwauling about how they’re being “victimized” it probably just
means someone or something is holding them accountable for his or her douchey behavior”. It’s a fragile ego that cannot endure
accountability.
I think, in addition to wanting on demand sources of narcissistic supply and fools for triangulation, Hoovering accomplishes another goal.
NPs/BPDs just cannot bear the nagging idea that you may be able to wipe your hands of them and move on with life, carefree.
That nagging idea makes them feel…… trivial…. unimportant…. ordinary. And there’s nothing more scary to a NP/BPD than feeling
trivial or unimportant. or ordinary. So, they -have- to Hoover…. they cannot let you go quietly… because they are -important-
More than a year after breaking up with my ex, and going No Contact, I discovered she was still using my CostCo membership ID (without
paying membership dues, of course). I suppose she just could not bear the reality of me moving on without her and wanted/needed a “hook” to
stir up communication at some future point. I quickly terminated her access to that account without ever contacting her.
My ex -very- quickly recruited a replacement when we broke up, and rushed him to the altar. I commented at the time, to friends, how
ridiculous it was for her to marry someone while on the rebound. Now…. the joke’s on him, unfortunately.
Itzasekret – I think sometimes Crazy, even an NPD, will up and do the discard. I know in my case it was true. It was as if she was pushing me to end things so that she could wash her hands of things without having to do anything or be accountable for her actions. As a friend of mine who she also screwed over put it “she has plenty of “friends” to abuse” Or, as that same friend put it “she destroys people and then moves on as if they never mattered.”
I damaged her ego in a few different ways, (rejection and criticism) and that meant I became her mortal enemy. She had a new, more submissive, easier to control source of immediate supply. I also believe she realized at the end that I’d seen fully behind her mask, said some things that got to the heart of what / who she really is and was met with more rage.
I think the knowledge that you’ve figured them out and are no longer treating them like perfect special snowflakes scares the crap out of them because they fear you’ll expose them. This means they have to discard, destroy and smear you first, to preserve their ego and false self, and of course, to “win.” Also, and I could be off base, I felt like she felt rejected and wronged by me, and thus felt she had to run 1st before I abandoned her.
This article rings true on so many levels. I can relate this to one of my sisters who I fell out with a few years back. I can see what she was up to now!!
Oy….. NarcSissy cranked up her 10,000 hp SuperSuker DLX. Soliciting me to serve a Likely Unneeded But Important Sounding Role
in her estate planning. The bait, ultimately, being that I/my sibs may become benefactors. Also wanting me to give a toast at her wedding,
where she will marry someone who is quite possibly even more NP…..
Its been a while, but I wanted to get back on here and talk about my recent experience with my crazy ex friend. By all accounts she is either a borderline or narc. We have had an on and off relationship for years, mostly on, but filled with a lot of the drama that comes with these types of disorders. Now I may seem like a glutton for punishment, but to have a beautiful older single women never married and no kids chasing you everyday, its hard to be negative about it. However, over the years I learned to not fall for her game of trying catch me. I did get hooked early on in the relationship, but saw all the red flags she produced and realized I was with a loose canon. She couldn’t over the years hold a job, get along with people, and maintain her personal affairs properly. She was very emotional, abusive, and had violent outbursts. One night she went off on me violently because I told her I didn’t want to get pressured into marriage. Our relationship though was very workable by being conditional with each other. Our last falling out here involved the loss of her home to foreclosure. I told her over the years what she needed to do keep her home, but she seemed to not have ever listened to me. I worked with her extensively to keep her happy and in control of her finances. However, the end was in sight as I knew she wouldn’t be able to keep it, and I wasn’t able to help her to the fullest extent that she needed. Once she was evicted, she began the devaluation of me and cut me out. She went on facebook bad mouthing me within days, and then all of a sudden she is in love with another man, and got engaged less than a month after being evicted. She then unfriends me on facebook, and shows up in her new profile picture in an un-appropriate manner. I was still able to message her on facebook, and gave her good send off. Why does it seem that these types of people are so self destructive? I know I wasn’t the problem, but to see someone just not listen to advise and let themselves become helpless is hard to watch. I do miss her though, but am staying positive. She is someone who can’t maintain relationships, but has made an exception with this guy I believe based on her homelessness. Apparently this guy did something or was in the right place at the right time. He is the good guy, and I am the hated one.
Excellent article! Just found your site – great stuff!
I wouldn’t trade my four daughters for anything in the world, but that being said… I also feel like if I’d been older and more experienced, and known what BPD, narcissism, DID and such really were, I’d have never, ever spoken to my wife beyond the second or third conversation. Over 13 years, gone from heaven for 5 to a slide into Hell the last 8 or so. If it weren’t for the kids, I’d be gone in a heartbeat… just convert the court case into a full divorce and move on. Would I ever be in a relationship again? I don’t know… honestly can’t say. MGTOW can sound so extreme… but yet, I can’t argue with it. I am now in a place where her opinion and the opinions of those she’s twisted don’t define me. The codependency has been broken, my self-confidence restored. I’m at home with myself again, like I was long ago. Someone like this ruins you… that’s what they WANT to do, that’s their goal. I can see how someone may never get back on their feet again after such a relentless attack. They want you down where they are, at their level…
Just to follow up on my earlier comment above. We had been in a long friendship/relationship for almost 10 years. There were at least a few times that she would cut me out for a couple months. This generally happened when I was returning from a vacation, or had a disagreement about something with her. She always joked on how she would put me in no win situations. She has now changed her facebook profile picture to something more traditional with her new guy from her earlier pornography laced profile pic. I wear glasses, and they both showed up in their birthday suits wearing glasses. I took it as her trying to get back at me because I wasn’t there to rescue her when she lost her home. This guy had just arrived when she was going through the foreclosure process, and she must have given him a good story for him to end up being her rescuer. It angers me when I worked so hard to help her, and then she wants to work as a waitress for $2.00 an hour when she had a $1500.00 mortgage note to pay. I kept telling her she needed to have employment that would cover hers debts, but she apparently never listened to my advise, and fell into the arms of stranger. Does this, and the above scenario, sound similar to others? During our non speaking periods, she would always re-initiate contact, and I would play it out a little, but then would get back with her.
Hadn’t heard From my ex for 2 months.. She went away with her sister, came back.. Messaged me “how’s cat?” I had a cat at it had been unwell.. She’d heard about it and wondered how it was.. I didn’t respond.. 2 days later. “Hey don’t ignore me” wink.. Then “I’m moving from the flat we shared together, I’d like to see you for a coffee to clear the air, draw a line and build bridges” I reluctantly agreed.. I met her, she was upset that I seemed cold and off.. I said I’m neither, just my guards up, I have nothing to say, I’m here to listen and to show her the courtesy she never showed me and that was it.. She was sweet, telling me how she hated that she hurt me, missed me, thought about me a lot.. Nothing more.. Mentioned that she’d heard I was selling part of my business and asked about a venture we had been looking to do together.. I said I’d dropped it as I was only looking to do it with her and didn’t want to do it without her, plus I was to busy..
Then an hour in it became clear that all the things she blamed me for ie not being happy, satisfied with her life etc.. We’re still the same and she wanted me to support her in a bid for the business we were looking to do together as the owners were people who trusted me and knew me and wanted me to be involved.. I’d like to say I told her where to go.. But I actually considered it.. Met with her at the property.. Looked round it, over the accounts, lease etc.. Then it all started again.. “Thanks for the intro and support, but I don’t want to have anything to do with you other than you supporting my venture” and what I meant by building bridges, to clear the air, draw a line and reconcile was to close the chapter and have nothing to do with you.. Oh by the way can you give me back my deposit and rent as even though I’ve damaged the flat I was renting off you and moved out earlier by my own choice I want the money”
At that point I just laughed.. Sent her all the money she asked for on the flat.. And walked away.. Telling her I wish her well.. But never want to hear from, see her, talk to her again..
I fell for it all hook line and sinker.. Even after My friends told me that for a year it was painful watching me being picked up and put down whenever it suited her.. Hey ho.. We live and learn.
Hopefully you’ve learned your lesson this time, MW3004.
Time will tell.. I’d be lying if I didn’t say I missed her or love her, wonder how she is and what she’s up to, Or the plans we made and things we’d talk about, like where we’d live, kids etc didn’t still matter. Now when I see her I just blank her.. Because anything else won’t take me anywhere positive.. We both go to same places as it’s a small city.. But hopefully in time it will fade. She’s very good at making be doubt things, what I said, what she said, what she meant etc. that even though she knew I loved her, should have known she was joking when she said about us ending up together, children home etc.. That she’d say that to any guy.. Yep.. I am that stupid..
Been a year. So far so good. One no contact slip up, learned a brutal lesson from that and got through my son’s Volley ball season(She’s the coach) with only one occasion I caught her staring at me. She has made zero attempt to hoover me. I don’t exist, I never happened and I’m cool with that.
Hello.
I simply don’t know where to start. I’ll try my best.
I just got out of a sixteen year relationship with an emotional reasoner and a NPD male.
First let me say this. I never wanted to get involved in drama or conflict. I am a person who does get emotional at times but overall am a problem solver.
My ex wasn’t. Anything I asked him in all sincerity in order to resolve problems? He NEVER wanted to deal with the problems.
He had anger issues but somehow I was always the one who pushed his buttons. Now, I get that sometimes this is the case, but in this case, the issue was this. If he has a temper problem (which he does) and I would address him and say “Hey, you know I really feel scared when you’re yelling at me and I’m in a corner cowering..” (YES THIS SOUNDS SO RIDICULOUS, RIGHT?) well, he simply said, “I’ll work on it.” But he never did.
His words were always just words and never backed by actions. I was somehow always the reason that “he acted out.” The only reason he acted out is because I was brave enough to be open and honest and this is all I have ever wanted in a relationship…to work honestly through things and to move forward; however he was never willing to do this. He could be a critical thinker in all other aspects it seemed, yet when it came to him critically thinking about how he hurt me, it was ALWAYS off limits. He would then jump to emotional reasoning and say well, (paraphrased) it doesn’t feel good when you confront me about my temper so therefore, I am not having this conversation.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????
IT DROVE ME CRAZY because I tried to understand him, yet at the same time, not resolving that temper issue was like not choosing to see the huge elephant in the room and constantly just “living around the elephant but never admitting it was there.” This behavior got normalized, and he always seemed to trick and to trap me into believing that I was the crazy one SIMPLY BECAUSE I WAS HONEST AND BROUGHT THIS TO HIS ATTENTION AND DIDN’T IGNORE THE ELEPHANT.. He got me real used to me blaming myself, over assessing myself for his problems, and the like. I am surprised I didn’t go insane, literally, though he still attests that I am insane for continuing to confront him on this. Yes, I suppose in a way I was…I should have gotten out a long time ago but let me tell you why I didn’t.
ONCE I tried to get divorced, he would go into fits of rage and we had 3 small children. I didn’t want them to be hurt, but yet I didn’t want to be in misery, so I stayed longer. I tried to see how I could get out. I tried to think of better ways and better situations to leave, but I had no education, no degree, no job, and no money…in essence, I had no stability. It was literally hell. My critical thinking had to increase and I had to do so without bringing him in the picture, since all he did was continue to blame me for his lack of addressing problems.
OMG. It took sixteen years to finally get out of this marriage and he still tries to disparage me on facebook.
Here is one reason I didn’t get out sooner.
1. Religion. I am LDS. We believe in “forever families.” Since I also had an abusive father who likely was an NPD, I would constantly blame myself for his abuse. Similarly, I would also blame myself for my ex’s abuse and lack of admission of issues. It was such a seamless and a perfect and a delicate dance…the NPD and the codependent (me.)
2. We were both from divorced homes. We tried like cats and dogs to stay in our marriage but now looking back, I can see that both of us didn’t have the sense NOR the tools to be able to do this. I incorrectly believed that we could DO ANYTHING and ANY TWO PEOPLE could make a marriage work.
FALSE!!!! Two can’t make anything work if one is unable to face his reality of anger and that anger is destroying the home and making the children scared on a consistent basis AND two can’t make things work if one is an NPD and the other is a codependent. All these things regarding personality disorders were things I did not understand until year fifteen to sixteen of our relationship. It took long enough but now I understand that learning later is better than never learning at all.
3. Culture. In our culture which is Pacific Islander, there is this “save face” mentality. We all want to look good in the community, so we tend to live in such a way where everything looks good but it’s not really good underneath. Many Pacific Islanders do not understand personality disorders whatsoever. The reason is that we are only one to two generations removed from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. There’s much we never knew. We were just grateful and happy to just have a roof over our head and food on the table. That’s how my dad raised us and how my ex was raised, and we were raised to just comply with adults and be seen but not heard.
4. Children. We wanted to stay together for the children.
5. Survival mentality vs a Happiness mentality. Sometimes we believed that simply surviving, even with an unhealthy codependent vs narcissism dance, was better than being happy. Well, after sixteen years I must say that NO, it was NOT better than being happy! So now I wised up and chose happiness, despite his family disparaging me on facebook and Not quite understanding my reasoning for getting out. Many of his family and even mine looked down upon me like I had some type of severe mental condition LOLLLLLLLLL for getting out of “a good marriage where my ex never layed a hand on me.” YES…sadly this was the standard of abuse…as long as no one hit me, I was “fine.”
HAHA!!! It is insane the definitions and parameters we build to justify our misery and our lack of taking accountability for actions.
6. Lack of education. My ex and I did not understand what was going on due to lack of education on this topic. I am so so grateful for a God (I’ll get religious here for a bit.) I believe that God blessed me to understand all this. I am also grateful for this forum. MANY PEOPLE need to be up on these topics! matter of fact, I am going to send a great friend this way to this forum, as he has been divorced twice and just needs more support on this topic. I would like to say this. AN IMPOVERISHED MIND or an UNEDUCATED MIND on this subject will be oblivious to all this and will relent to “this is just life and I need to get over it.” There are many people who desperately need this education but sadly, many are not willing to pay the price to receive it.
Thank you for your support, and for allowing me to speak out on this topic! There are many people who do not understand fully what these issues are. I’m so grateful to be in your presence. I’m grateful to be alive literally. If I didn’t get out of my marriage, my ex would have literally probably gone crazier than he already has gone. SINCE MY DIVORCE in April? My ex has met someone (a therapist.) We are able to talk. She is able to help him to get counseling finally! (When I was married to him, he never wanted to get counseling.) So he is going to do that. I’m finally going to get counseling from the trauma I have undergone. My kids are healthier. I just am so so grateful to tears for being able to FINALLY IDENTIFY this psychotic relationship and to break it down and to literally pinpoint and see the flaws. Some say NPD’s don’t really change…well that is up to his new fiancee, and not to me anymore. But we have resolved to be healthier for the kids.
Lastly, I told my kids this, and this is a complete miracle, seeing as how I was never told this as a kid, but it is sure that generations change and grow. I simply said to my kids this: IF SOMEONE TRIES TO BLAME YOU FOR SOMETHING YOU DID NOT DO, STOP IT!!!!! DON”T BELIEVE IT!!!! I told them this: if your father gets mad and throws a fit and blames you? You tell him ITS NOT MY FAULT!!! Respectfully yes, but I didn’t want them to get this psychotic belief passed down to their children any more than these psychological issues already have been passed down in mine and my ex’s families. It’s important to educate our children so that they can move forward in health, which includes mental and emotional and spiritual health. Our definition as Pacific Islanders and health are beginning to move beyond just healthy eating. No. It’s actually now moving towards HEALTHY THINKING…healthy behaving…healthy internal processing…and it’s not just saying this towards my ex. It’s saying this to Me. Ive finally learned that though I had probably a NPD father? I can learn and understand that his abuse to me was not my fault, as he used to tell me. It’ wasn’t! He just never took accountability for things due to his development. That’s fine but now? I am learning and I am teaching my kids. anyways, I’m rambling but Yes.
Anyone who is going to break down these topics psychologically without previously knowing about these issues have to be extremely honest. I’m grateful that I have always been an extremely honest person and that I started to research this topic, and that I resolve to STOP keeping secrets…others’ secrets, and stop keeping my own secrets of abuse from my father which in the past, I felt guilty for saying them because in my home, I was raised that PARENTS ARE ALWAYS RIGHT!!! PARENTS HAVE THE RIGHT TO ABUSE. PARENTS HAVE THE RIGHT TO BEAT ME AND TO BLAME ME. PARENTS ARE THE KINGS/QUEENS. CHILDREN ARE THE SLAVES. PARENTS SHOULD NEVER BE QUESTIONED BUT JUST FEARED AND LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY. CHILDREN’S ROLE IS TO JUST SHUT UP AND BE GRATEFUL.
Well , that above sentiment only causes more problems of failing to draw boundaries and failing to tell the truth and heightens the possibilities of getting in abusive relationships in the future.
Still learning about personality disorders and just shocked beyond all belief to learn the things I’m learning.
I just want to add this. Sometimes I feel bad voicing this all out. I feel like it’s bad to tell the truth on this. It will make people look bad. But now I see this.
ITS WORSE to live a lie. If it had to come down to living a lie or telling the truth? Well, the truth is better than living a lie. Living a lie makes me feel like I might as well be dead. Yep. Like I might as well be dead.
I opted out and opted in to telling the truth, no matter how hard that was…no matter how much it defied the value system that I was taught…no matter how many people laughed at me…no matter how much people didn’t understand….knowledge is non transferrable especially when the other parties don’t WANT to understand, don’t FEEL like they need to understand. Even now I think my ex disparages me everywhere he goes. he tried to get his family to turn on me and mine as well. It just further shows who he is and reflects his issues, not mine. I have never disparaged him on facebook or anywhere. I don’t consider this disparaging him….in here. I am just simply speaking the truth so that I can be happy and heal. There’s a huge difference. One is to disparage someone so you don’t have to take accountability for your issues and the other is just to voice things so that you can continue to live on, and not go back to that situation and live in silent suffering and/or misery.
Hi. So im new on this and read all about the madness explained on this site. What caught my attention was the familiarity of what im experiencing and have been for almost 8 years of marriage. Although I still have difficulties in accepting if my soon to be ex wife mother of my two todler boys could possibly be borderline personality order or perhaps worse. What Im trieng to say is that I am just so freeken exhausted…I have never experienced something like this before this marriage. I guess I just need to talk about this to understand if she is so…how do I approach this. Ive started a minimum contact approach and still the things she says cuts deep.
I am tired and feel confused….been blamed to be abusing her emotionally verbally and physically. I made the mistake to have sex with her numerous times now after the breakup. Now that I put a stop to it she tries to make me believe that I made a nusence of myself not giving her space….but Im the one innitiating the minimum contact concept…how do I dissable the treatment or ask away anyone that
feel they got an answer. Regards Chris
This article is so relevant regarding the way abusers turn around the rejection of the so-called friendship offer to make it sound to that I’m a jackass unfriendly prick because I want nothing more to do with her.
It’s plain and simple – I gave and gave, she took and took. When I was finished giving as her boyfriend she wanted me to continue giving as a friend.
thank god for shrink4men~
My ex wanted to be friends which to her meant that I would still be friendly to her at work,; we would still go out with co-workers for drinks; and we could even still go to strip clubs together. When i directly asked her why it was important to her that I was still her friend, she answered, “I don’t know.” She’s diagnosed BPD so it’s like asking a 4-yr-old to define the concept of friendship. They just can’t do it. They don’t know what it truly means to be a friend to someone. Friend=abuser, taker…to them.