Here is the most recent article written by CrazyBuster, Micksbabe. As usual, she nails it:
One of the life lessons I’ve learned, through grievous trial and error, is the importance of boundaries. Not just in interpersonal relationships, but in all facets of life. Some might consider me un-trusting. And that would be accurate. I trust very few people. My fortress walls are very fortified.
If you’ve spent any portion of your recent life living with a high-conflict person (HCP)/abusive personality disordered individual (APDI), you have no doubt had the walls of your fortress pummeled, blown up and decimated, to the point where you were completely vulnerable and became cannon fodder for the HCP. This is what HCP’s do.
And even though you may have “escaped” living with the HCP, whatever “radar” you may or may not have had before the HCP, was also decimated. Your bar of acceptable abuse was lowered. You have probably lost some sense of what normal/healthy/acceptable interactions are.
Unless or until you learn how to combat boundary infractions, you will continue to be fodder for HCPs – either from your ex (if you have children together and must remain in contact), or from future HCP predators who will sniff you out like wolves to a wounded rabbit. You must be retrained.
One of the best books I ever read on the subject of boundaries is a book called, “The Gift of Fear,” written by Gavin deBecker. His book touches on our inherent animal instincts and how we, as a culture and society, take great pains to ignore and suppress our animal instincts in order to maintain civility and avoid wars and conflicts. The problem with this is that, while we are resisting the urge to violate other people, we are also ignoring the warning signs that predatory humans (HCPs and APDIs) are sending us. HCPs/APDIs are NOT ignoring their animal instincts, but count on the fact that you are ignoring yours. HCPs ARE PREDATORS.
Wolf in sheep’s clothing. One of the toughest things about identifying an HCP/APDI is that they wear clever disguises. Look at pictures of Casey Anthony. Does anyone think she looks like a child killer? How about your ex-HCP significant other? Would you have ever thought that she was capable of the manipulation, deceit and destruction that she inflicted upon you?
The problem with HCPs is that they usually don’t have fangs and claws. They look like computer geeks, piano tuners, executives, doctors, teachers, politicians, party girls and housewives. In fact, whatever disguise the HCP wears, they are, in many cases, very successful in their roles. People who are not burdened with things like conscience, guilt, remorse or empathy, can go very far in life.
Testing the fortress walls. An HCP will always begin assessing your fortress’ weaknesses by testing the walls. Have you ever met someone who immediately asked you a question or said or did something that made you feel uncomfortable? I’ve noticed that HCP’s are often “touchers,” meaning they will reach out and literally touch you, on the arm, back, or anywhere. Do they ask you your age? Your income? Your weight? Or do they start in on a conversation that sounds like an inquisition? Do they make sexual innuendos? Seem overly flirty? Ask for favors?
In all of these instances, if you don’t put up immediate boundaries (i.e., move away so they cannot touch you, ignore personal inquisitions, rebuff sexual advances and flatly veto demands for favors), then the HCP has found their next victim/host. And the boundary infractions will become increasingly more bold.
Reconstructing your fortress walls. I cannot stress enough the value of finding a good therapist who specializes in personality disorders. Beyond this, there are certain traits within YOURSELF that you can learn to recognize and work on, that will help you to reconstruct boundaries to protect yourself.
1. Learn to be OKAY with being the “bad guy.” Being the good guy is over-rated. “Good guy” to the HCP translates as “victim.”
2. Learn not to take things personally. So what if the HCP acts insulted when you rebuff her advances or veto her demands? You were right and she was wrong. The fact that she froths at the mouth and spins herself into a crater is her problem and is no reflection upon you. This is not your issue to own . . . or fix.
3. DEVELOP RADAR or CRAZY-DAR. NOT trusting everyone you meet does not make you paranoid or jaded. Tap back into your Dog Language. Once you’ve learned to trust your own instincts, you’ll be a better judge not only of who HCPs are, but also who your true friends are.
Thank you, Micksbabe.
Counseling with Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD
Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD helps individuals work through their relationship and codependency issues via telephone or Skype. She specializes in helping men and women trying to break free of an abusive relationship, cope with the stress of an abusive relationship or heal from an abusive relationship. Coaching individuals through high-conflict divorce and custody cases is also an area of expertise. She combines practical advice, emotional support and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Schedule a Session page for more information.
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Amen. My ex-wife lacks any respect for others’ boundaries and in fact seems oblivious to the concept. I find myself needing to constantly reassert and retrench my boundaries with her. The constant vigilance gets tiring at times, but it’s certainly better than the alternative: having this highly volatile, selfish, childish and overly judgmental fiend living in my home and making my every waking moment a living hell. Thanks for the article Micksbabe.
I can’t stress the first point made by Micksbabe enough. Being a “good guy” means being the HCP’s/APDI’s doormat, punching bag, sucker, victim, scapegoat and target.
The reality is that no matter what you do, the HCP/APDI will portray you as the “bad guy,” so you may as well take care of yourself.
This is so true. My husband is a “good guy”, always conscientious and considerate. His ex wife had no respect for him for being this way. In fact, I got the impression that she thought he was a chump. She made derisive, belittling remarks to him when he was nice and acted all wounded (and blamed me) when he grew a spine. If you’re in a no-win situation with someone who doesn’t respect you no matter what you do, you might as well do whatever is going to be best for you. And if that means putting your foot down and perhaps risking a meltdown from the HPD, so what? You can’t control their behavior and you’re not responsible for it.
I have also read the “The Gift of Fear”. It was recommended by a guy whose videos I watch on YouTube. He recommended it because he was accosted by a neighbor who was intent on pushing religion on him and his kids, but really it’s a great book for anyone who has trouble with being too nice and trusting.
Thanks for a great post, micksbabe.
Thanks for the second book rec, knotheadusc. I keep meaning to order it from amazon. No time like the present.
I keep buying them and then giving them away. I currently don’t have a copy or I would send you one.
I’m in the same situation, but how do I get my husband to see her madness? She has him emotional enslaved, and just when I think I’ve gotten through to him, she hangs their daughter over his head and draws him right back in. The daughter only comes over Christmas, her birthday, and when we go on vacation. Otherwise, she ignores his phone calls, and texts, forcing him to call his ex to find out where she is. The ex tells him it’s none of his business and begins berating him for not being a good father. How can he be a good father when she doesn’t come over or answer his calls?!?! She’s 16 BTW. I’m so frustrated with the whole thing, I’ve printed off articles I’ve read on here and begged him to read them, and he refuses, says, ‘what good will it do?’.
Breaking an old habit takes a lot of work and it sounds like your DH is too afraid of the potential repercussions, and the work. So then, what are the repercussions for your DH carrying on an emotional engagement with his Ex, despite your protests?
None. His daughter won’t talk to him regardless of whether he’s kissing the ex’s hind end or he’s ignoring her. He gets so built up and strong to resist her, then he caves and thinks maybe this one time….and thus the cycle begins all over again.
She only allows him to be a parent when the daughter does something wrong (lied to her mom about going to the store and went to a 20 year old’s house, getting caught shoplifting at the mall, etc.), then she calls him and demands he call the daughter and chew her out, and threaten to whip her. So he does, and then once again he’s the bad guy, and the daughter hates him, and the mother praises the daughter because it obviously was not her fault. He’s shrinks back, and is like a beaten child, and I build his esteem back up and get him back to “normal” again, and then here we go again….
You’re not his mommy. You should have to spend your life dealing with his ex’s shit. If the pattern is this established then he’s getting suckered in by choice not accident.
I found this below on a different website and sent a copy off to Dr. T. and she thought it was fantastic. This is something I went through as a slow buildup process over 14 years and we lost everything because her 2 sons never had any boundaries placed on them
Sons of Narcissistic Mothers
I’m just starting the research on this but I have read enough to have some “preliminary” thoughts. Narc moms raise sons who “may” fall into a couple of categories more often than not.
1) They become narcissists themselves
2) They end up without much identity except for what’s tied to her. Some would call them mama’s boys.
These are the two categories I’m seeing the most but because of my brother and my friend Keith, I think there are at least two more.
3) They become reasonably normal, marry women NOT like mom and manage to keep their Mother at arm’s length.
4) They suffer from long term, rather undefined depression (a form of PTSD – Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.) They have a hard time remembering their childhood, the memories they do have are vaguely normal, they may not have much of a relationship with siblings (but can’t quite put their finger on exactly why) and find narcissistic women over and over again. They try really hard to please those women too but often get dumped or treated so badly they finally can’t take it. But they don’t seem to relate it back to mom very well.
More on this later after research that allows me to quote. I won’t be able to write from a personal perspective so shall have to rely on others.
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Here is one I got from the blog The Narcissist in Your Life:
NARCISSISTIC SONS-NARCISSISTIC MOTHERS
Some narcissistic mothers fixate on their son as a golden child and a psychological partner. The son of the narcissist is adored by the mother. Although there is no actual incestuous interaction between mother and son, the narcissistic mother can be provocative and psychologically seductive with this child. Learning from early childhood that he is the prince of the household, he feels superior and self entitled to do whatever he wants. The father is out of the picture and takes no significant role in the child’s development. The narcissistic mother has no interest in her spouse. The focus is on her special boy: his talents, charm, brilliance and superiority to everyone else. Early on the mother communicates to her son that he has no limits and is perfect. This boy knows from the time that he is very young that he is golden—adored and revered by his mother. The narcissistic mother often raises a narcissistic son, an individual she can turn to for validation and a special person on whom she can attach her grandiose dreams of worldly success and power.Mother’s adoration and psychological fusion come at a weighty price. Narcissistic sons of narcissistic mothers have great difficulty becoming real men. Mother has manipulated her child as an adored object. As a result the narcissistic son cannot have emotionally and psychologically intimate relationships with women. Many of these male narcissists detest women and are frightened of being emasculated by them. This is a painful psychological remnant of growing up being suffocated by mother and not allowed to develop a separate identity as a man. Although these narcissistic man can appear to be normal with spouses and families, they are going only through the motions, creating and sustaining an idealized image of spouse and father. Beneath the elaborate facade, the narcissistic son remains trapped in the psychological strangle hold of his narcissistic mother whom he now treats with cold contempt. Visit my website:www.thenarcissistinyourlife.com
Linda Martinez-Lewi, Ph.D.
Shannon – your situation sounds identical to ours only we are dealing with a ‘tween. If we get visits mother calls 100x or she calls her. No phone calls to dad, no response to emails, text & always too “busy” to talk. Mom has her tell him “her” “true” feelings that he’s just not the “kind of” dad she’d like and why can’t it just be the two of them instead of the “whole family” at our home. Good enough to ask to buy things or for more money, though. It’s probably too late in your case as for the alienation part but we are fighting it this time, gone on way too long.
I agree, concernedstep, we are in the same boat. I have finally talked him into going to talk to a lawyer to see what he can do. If that doesn’t work, we are going to therapy. I can’t live like this, something has to change.
Good luck to you both!! Our’s is drawing up the paperwork now, and should be served shortly. SD is totally brainwashed now. Though we move ahead in this situation, it seems like it’s never going to be a win/win situation when SD has no clue what emotional damage the mother has inflicted upon her and also has been taught to hate dad over it and taught that he’s “out” for mom. So mom is portrayed as some kind of saint, or better yet a victim. Yet, the SD has never heard us discuss anything about mom, visitations, or going to court at all. It all stems from mom who only wants more money but doesn’t think dad deserves to see his child. It’s like she “owns” her and is just using her as a pawn to get what she wants.
Please read the article I posted just above. I believe it can also apply to daughters in one form or another.
Is the ‘gift of fear’ as focused on female victims as it sounds? I find reading stuff that over-emphasizes female victimhood triggery.
Nope. Gavin deBecker works (worked?) predominantly on high profile stalking cases.
Weeeblo, it’s been my experience that these types of women who have no respect for other’s boundaries are at the very same time the people who are running around spewing off about “boundaries” and respect and trust, accusing the people around them of the very thing that they are actually guilty of. It’s amazing.
Projection. It’s not just a room in the back of a theater.
Absolutely! No one’s fortress is more fortified than the HCP’s. No one dare cross THEIR boundaries. But of course, this has nothing to do with YOUR boundaries being trampled by them. That’s “different”. You are not entitled to have boundaries. Only they are.
Agreed Tippytoes. I’m in no way qualified to make a formal diagnosis, but on a hunch, I think it all ties into some sort of inability to reach sufficient emotional maturity to not view themselves as the center of the universe. Like a toddler, my ex would change rules at will to fit her circumstances (regardless of my boundaries), then defend her positions tooth and nail. In our ~12 years together I lost count of how many cruel, vindictive, angry and hurtful words she yelled and hissed my way, but can count the number of seemingly sincere apologies I ever received from her on one hand. And even then, I may be giving her too much credit! Her sheer inability to see or respect anything from anybody else’s point of view never ceased to horrify me. Amazing indeed!
Weeeblo, I bet those handful of “sincere” apologies went something like this: “I’m really sorry, BUT .
If the word “BUT” falls anywhere in an apology, it’s not a sincere apology, but rather a slick blame-shift to once again make YOU the bad guy. Again, it’s fascinating to witness (only from afar). Having been the victim of this kind of person, I know how exhausting and utterly impossible it is to deal with. It’s a lose-lose for the victim. Good luck, stay strong. Everything is NOT your fault.
MicksBabe, I rolled on the floor laughing after reading your comment. My ex’s classic non sequitur whenever I caught her in the act of trying to assert a double standard was: THAT’S DIFFERENT!
For years I’ve been alienated from my daughter during this all this time more & more support has been requested from me by her mother. No more being Mr. “Nice” Guy for me to keep the peace. It has not helped, it has only made things worse. So, I am finally taking a stand & taking back that control. This type preys on your insecurities very early on and takes your “niceness” to another level, beware. They do this, yet like to play the “victim” to others.
Here’s another wrinkle…if you split with your abusive/controlling ex be prepared for her to adopt the pose of the long-suffering abuse victim whose boundaries are being violated by YOU. She’ll be reading “The Gift of Fear” too, and going through her own spiritual journey in which she discovers that she was the one being abused by you all along.
You, as usual, will be bending over backwards trying to read her mind, respect her space, and be the best ex and co-parent you can be, and you’ll be baffled by her increasing anger and hostility which, bizarrely, will get worse over time and rather then lessen.
Note that the confusion you will increasingly feel when you’re around her is likely the result of being subject to her projection. Your head will spin as you realize you’ve been upgraded in her mind from a mere incompetent/loser/doofus/handpuppet to a full-on monster capable of the most subtle and manipulative expressions of evil. And then she’ll explain all this to your social circle during the many parties she’s able to afford thanks to your ‘child support’. Your kids will over-hear it. And many of your friends will believe her and dump you, and some others won’t know what to think and they’ll dump you too, just to be safe.
If you engage you’ll be caught up in a propaganda war in which each side uses using the same nomenclature, literature, and similarly credentialed experts with their similar-sounding expert opinions as weapons to discredit the other.
Fun stuff.
Sorry…a bit grouchy today.
JP
Unfortunately JP, your story is not unique. Sorry you have one.
I agree , jp. That is why no contact and just not fighting back is the best way to go. These folks are very good at enlisting allies and they have way more energy for distortion than a normal person. Best thing to do is stay the hell away from them.
At first I wished their was a way for HCP’s to have a label on them saying such. Then I wished instead non-HCP’s would have a label saying they were not HCP. Now I know the signs of HCP well enough that I can spot them on their second red flag. I really thought my relationship was worthy of a movie. I’m so bummed to learn how common my experience is. I thought I was entitled at least to the movie rights! woops, I said the E word. Sorry.
I’m OK on that front….my ex brags that she doesn’t like to read….
This article could not come at a better time. This week, I decided to cut someone out, so to speak, who has been displaying some red flags I do not like. I may have let it go a little too far but she is really pushing my buttons and starting the whole “jump through my hoops” game. Thanks for the book tip….looks like a must read.
3. DEVELOP RADAR or CRAZY-DAR. NOT trusting everyone you meet does not make you paranoid or jaded. Tap back into your Dog Language. Once you’ve learned to trust your own instincts, you’ll be a better judge not only of who HCPs are, but also who your true friends are.
AMEN!!! Trust, like respect is earned (I’ve recently learned)…and people who get offended if you don’t trust them are raising serious red flags.
And I had to kick someone out of my house not too long ago for completely stomping all over my boundaries…when I later told him that was the reason I was no longer interested, he responded, “I wasn’t pushy; I was being nice and romantic.” Um…being pawed by a virtual stranger is NOT romantic!!
It’s not paranoia if they really are out to get you. By the by, what is “Dog Language”?
Dogs cannot speak or comprehend language. Instead, they communicate by body language. Their own body language and by “reading” others – animals and humans alike. They can sense hostility and aggression by observing body language. If you own a dog and your dog doesn’t like one of your friends, take heed.
Thanks, I think I understand now. So how does one resharpen their instincts when they’ve been crushed, beaten, bent, folded, spindled and mutilated over time, and how does one get to a point where they are strong enough to both trust and act on those instincts?
I think educating oneself about the existence and characteristics of this type of person is the first step. Then , read up on how others have handled it.No contact with an abusive person really helps. Then, as you get away from the abuse and brainwashing, gradually, you learn how to spot these types.
Recently, a disordered sibling started sending me incredibly mean e-mails, attacking me out of the blue on any number of issues. In the past , I have seen her do this type of attack on another sibling. For whatever reason, she has now decided to go after me.
I think in the past, I would have been more hurt and would have tried to fight back. Now, I see that she is really messed up(she’s alcoholic and flits from job to job, always broke and spending beyond her means). I just stay the heck away from her, now.
I’ll agree that dogs are good at reading people, and being a cat person myself, I’d say that cats are even more intuitive than dogs when it comes to detecting crappy people. However, I’ve now seen two people — my narcissistic ex-girlfriend and a completely psychopathic woman I one (very briefly) dated — completely fool both my cats. Remember, these people are masters at faking genuine affection, and they can fool animals as easily as people.
In my experience, both cats and dogs are really good at spotting rude, obnoxious and generally nasty people faster than we humans can.
Micksbabe, very good article, and as you recommended to me before, I’ve been sending them to my deployed boyfriend (hi honey)! He comes home soon for his mid tour leave, we’ve been using these articles to refresh our memories on all the crazy-making so that we don’t try to deal with her as if she were “normal”. Anyway just wanted to give you a big thanks, loved the article. It’s perfect.
This is what I’ve found to be one of the hardest parts of dealing with my HCP wife. Setting up boundaries. Every time I try to do this, it’s turned around against me as abandoning the children, abandoning her during some made-up trivial crisis overly-magnified by her into a catastrophe. Of course, this is only so that she can display for all my friends and family how incompetent and neglectful I am. The natural response is for me to come back, which of course is the WRONG answer with these type of people. As soon as I do, she scolds me for having thought I could detach myself from her and then, viewing my lack a response to her tantrum as “winning” goes back to sickly-sweet love-dovey mode, usually using the children to enhance the effect. Of course, it’s not long before every thing I do is a bullet wound in her and she wishes I would just leave. So. Frustrating. I look forward to the moment I get away from her!
Good article. I’ve learned that part of #1 (being the bad guy) is feeling very uncomfortable, even harsh at times. But it has helped me set good boundaries with others.
I wonder though, at one point does one build up walls so high that keep everything out? Is it possible that boundaries may become too rigid & self-defeating?
The good thing about personal boundaries is that you are able to regulate them for yourself. Friends of dietrich get in. Enemies do not.
The extent to which one is ‘regulating’ them effectively is my question.
IMO, seems like it can go to extremes. No boundaries at all, or overly rigid ones. Indiscriminate attachments vs fear of intimacy?
Building up walls so high that NO ONE can get in, even potential (healthy) friends, seems like it could be problematic.
Add to that wall a solid steel door, locks and a doorbell with a peephole…not to mention a security system….fine by me.
I have adopted a new ‘rule’ – By Invitation Only. My life, my body, is By Invitation Only. Disrespect that, and be disappointed by the consequences.
Dietrich, think like your digestive system and the walls of the small intestine, which implements a selective boundary: nutrients pass through, as do vitamins and minerals. Bacteria don’t, nor do most inorganic materials. It’s not a question of strength, it’s all about selectivity. I think that’s what MicksBabe meant when she referred to regulating your boundaries; you get to choose the selection criteria. Excrete the rest and flush!
TGI’s new rule is a fine example of selection criteria also. Thank you both, ladies!
re: selectivity, yes that is the crux. If someone’s ‘picker’ is broken, then having the ability to select is going to be impaired. It’s not as simple as ‘you in/you out’.
IMO, seems like a fine line between ‘fortress’ and self-imposed prison.
Not to sound like a d*ck, but my trust in females has been compromised. Spotting the bad apples isn’t so difficult.
The hard part is knowing when I’m keeping healthy persons out of my life…unintentionally.
Trust, Dishonesty, Fraud and Boundaries
Dietrich, you’re catching on! You’re right, it’s not so hard to catch the bad apples – in the past, I’ve intuitively recognized a couple of women who were later discovered to be highly toxic and stopped dating them very, very early on (like a week after first meeting them). And I knew absolutely nothing about HCPs and personality disorders at that time.
But as SantaMaria writes below, “My fortress was impermeable for many years. Then I met someone, who for the first time in my life, actually understood and shared similar experiences to my own. I was surprised and scared to death at how easily the drawbridge opened, so to speak. I couldn’t stop it.”
This is the technique that all HCPs use – they “mirror” ourselves back to us and use love-bombing to “build” trust and attraction in an insanely short period of time. They have an uncanny ability to appear to us as the soul mate we’ve been searching for all our lives, and we’re so euphoric about them that we tell them all our likes and dislikes and strengths and weaknesses and innermost thoughts and secrets. But they’re really using our freely volunteered information to (a) make their fabricated image even more perfect and enticing for you, and (b) build a “database” of things they can use to manipulate and control you later on.
In a normal relationship, trust and intimacy are built up (i.e. earned by each partner) over time, not overnight. In hindsight, I now know that healthy boundaries MUST exclude people who use such sneaky tactics to fraudulently gain my trust overnight. With this new “selection criterion” as part of my boundaries, I’m not worried about unintentionally excluding healthy people from my life. There’s no fine line between the fortress and the prison, just sensible criteria based on knowledge (thank you, Dr. T!) and experience.
I might add that many people here seem to be well-educated professionals, and obviously come from good healthy caring families. That’s my background also, and it had never even occurred to me that anyone could even think of disrespecting, using and abusing their partner – that’s something that was so totally “off the radar” for me, as it had just never happened in my own family or any previous relationships. My ex sensed my ignorance and very cleverly used it to her advantage.
I learned a valuable lesson about trust many years ago that’s very relevant to this discussion. I once loaned a medium-sized sum of money to a friend I had known for quite a while. He was insulted when I asked him to sign a simple loan agreement – “What, you don’t trust me after all this time?” So I let him have it – and I never saw him or my money again.
The important thing here is that although we had known each other for a couple of years, neither I nor anyone else I knew had ever lent him money before. The crux: he had not yet earned my trust with respect to money. Trust is neither generic nor binary; you can trust some people in some areas but not in others. With money, I’ve always required a written loan agreement since that incident and guess what? Truly trustworthy people are MORE than happy to sign such agreements – because normal, healthy people understand how important and difficult it is to build trust and welcome the opportunity to earn it.
Note that some people will question the need for an agreement, and it’s easily justifiable; consider this scenario. You lend someone (anyone!) $10,000 and then ten minutes later, after cashing your cheque at their bank, they cross the street and get hit and killed by a car. Ask any lawyer on the planet: you’ll never get a penny back from the deceased person’s estate without proof of the loan. After explaining this and insisting on the written agreement, I watch the resulting reaction VERY carefully and make a judgement call based on the response. My main concern here is why this person is not eager to earn my trust.
My ex went to extreme lengths to convince me how great her life and all her relationships were, but never did I get to see anything first-hand. In the entire 18 months were were together, we visited her family exactly once and her family never even once visited us. She kept her friends (all three of them, it seems) “separate” and never invited me to go out with them. All I ever received was her fabricated version of her relationships. She did admit that she “dumped” one of her three friends who was “so terrible to her,” but I suspect that it was in fact the other way around.
Like the loan agreement, if a future partner were to expect me to blindly believe that their relationships with their family and friends were so great, I would simply suggest that we both start spending some quality time together her friends and family. A healthy woman who truly loved and respected me would be (a) eager to gradually merge her valued partner into her family and circle of friends, and (b) happy to show me how she gets along with her family and friends. It’s exactly what I have always done and would do regarding her, and anything less is so worrisome that I would definitely consider terminating the relationship immediately based on a dangerous lack of reciprocity.
I would like to be able to trust my next partner with everything, including my life. I understand that this level of trust is impossible to earn in a reasonable time (an impenetrable fortress or prison, as you described it), but I will wait long enough to establish that I can trust her to respect my feelings, my character, and my money (I was recently burned on that one!). They only way that this can happen is for both partners to go through some difficult life experiences, both individual and shared experiences. Another important thing to observe is how your partner deals with their family and other people, not just with you.
If the partners support each other through these difficulties, it can build an enormous amount of trust and respect. But this process takes significant time (we certainly don’t want to create difficulties!). In my case, had I not moved in with her after only four months, I would have noticed that over time, “her problems” gradually became “our problems” (i.e. I was expected to do the majority of the work to solve them), but “my problems” were mine and mine alone to solve. No help or support from her at all; my difficulties could not be allowed to taint her “perfect” life. Had I waited just a few months longer, I’m sure that she would have either (a) exposed more HCP traits or (b) become bored and moved on to find more gullible prey.
Even many “normal” people are too impatient to wait long enough before “taking the relationship to the next level” (whatever that silly term means). I’m calm and patient and willing to wait a reasonable length of time before making important commitments like moving in together, and if a potential partner cannot recognize and respect this as a virtue, I will definitely suggest that we part company so she can find someone less patient.
Dietrich, your “picker” isn’t broken. It’s just a little vague and foggy, and maybe has a gaping hole or two as my “fortress” did. Your situation and experience is probably similar to mine but different in some areas, so I suggest that you consider doing what I’ve done here: (1) I recall and write out the unhealthy aspects of my relationship, then (2) ask myself “how did I let this happen?” and then (3) figure out what I need to do (i.e. how to improve and clarify my boundaries) to prevent this from happening again. The articles and comments here are terrific triggers for recalling unhealthy experiences, so read as much as you can. I hope this will prove helpful, and I wish you all the best!
We are by nature, kind, gullible and naieve individuals which is exactly the types of people these individuals latch onto. It goes against our nature to be in any way mean or act in a manner that could even be perceived as such. It bothers our conscience immensely to act contrary to our personality. That is our weakness. They see it, they attack it, and if they get a rouse out of you, in their distorted mind, they will unleash the hounds of hell, triumphing in their efforts to hurt you. If you are going to survive these types of people, you must go against your instincts. Erecting the walls of your own personal fortress is actually something that your survival instinct will do for you, without your conscious mind even realizing it. When you have lost all feelings and are numb, it is time to build. It is your body’s way of telling you it is time to make a change. My fortress was immpermeable for many years. Then I met someone, who for the first time in my life, actually understood and shared similar experiences to my own. I was surprised and scared to death at how easily the drawbridge openned, so to speak. I couldn’t stop it. At some point you have to believe and have faith that you are good, kind, and not the person these types of people try to make you and others believe you are. There is no better feeling than connecting with someone who can relate to your own victimization at the wrath of these types of women. Don’t worry about building your walls too high to protect yourself, when you meet the right person, they will be there to help you reinforce them.
Yes, when you erect the boundaries, they do attack you, claiming things about you that are true about themselves.
Projection ain’t just a river in Egypt!
Great article. Those words and many in the discussion are taken into my mind!
i’ve been thinking about boundaries. when i started looking into why on earth i was so miserable in my relationship with my wife, it was not uncommon for me to find information on “boundaries.” again: the problem was my fault, i wasn’t good enough at setting boundaries. really? was that the problem? i then imagined what it would be like if my wife treated me, as her husband, even roughly equally to the way she treated me as a boyfriend.
my point is: if my wife were not verbally, emotionally, and physically abusive towards me in the intimate, private, and (unless i have recording devices running), often “unprovable” setting behind closed doors — then the whole boundaries deal would be unnecessary.
i build synergistic relationships well. it seems to me that “boundaries” are only one step in creating healthy relationships. they are the “non-negotiables” and are to be heeded. like: no you will no longer fly into rage episodes and hit me ever and no, you will no longer hit me in front of our child and no, you will no longer call me “loser papa” because i will record it when our daughter says it and no, you will not expose our daughter to your violent family of origin at this time.
in a healthy, synergistic relationship, it is my experience that the “other” is conscious of such “boundaries,” and they basically go without say. it’s not that they are unnecessary, it’s just that you can rely on the other to have your best interests in mind at heart and in action.
it was such a relationship i wished to create with my wife. we enjoyed the fruits of such a relationship as boyfriend girlfriend, and as a “boyfriend,” i was still someone (or something) to be cherished, treated well, respected, massaged, sexed and “loved.”
in a sense, it was my expectation that the “fortress” would have me and my wife in it. i figured, war pain lies bombs — that’s to be expected in the outside world, sure big deal, i mean our species “represents” pretty tragically, we are just plain horrific — but “at home,” that was supposed to be a sanctuary of mutual respect and kindness, or synergy and the thriving abundance that synergy brings.
but to “need” to be a fortress myself, at home, while with my spouse. that’s nuts and just too much!
sure, have your radar on when you are meeting new people, but when you are at home alone with your spouse of 10 years?
you get fatigued.
so, what i really need is to be somewhere where i can turn my radar off for a while. i need to be among people who, like me, are respectful of others boundaries without my needing to “do much” or even “say much.” i need to recover.
so basically, i feel there is a bit of a ways to go from “healthy boundaries” to “functional and loving synergies.”
boundaries = non negotiables
then there are negotiables
and then areas where we both agree
synergies respect all three (boundaries, negotiables, agreements) in a fun and mutually beneficial way.
i very much appreciate the concept of “predatory personalities,” because it is clear to me that that’s how my wife is functioning in her relationship with me.
what is appropriately mind-blowing is that she does not function that way at all times or in all relationships.
we haven’t “nailed her down” here, what we’ve isolated is the painful fact that “she” treats you/me with cruelty and that there are times and places and circles in which she is “not like that.”
that’s why, to prove how manipulative and evil you are, she will gravitate towards talking about you with people who have never seen her be cruel towards you (which is almost nobody actually).
so, one option is to praise the parts of the HCP partner’s behavior that “works” while maintaining that the abusive parts are not acceptable.
next is designing a life structure that includes consequences for HCP behaviors. how can it be done?
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a quick comment on the article: touchers? touching in general builds trust. touching in a friendly way is a desirable method of communication that frankly, american society would do well to reinstate. the cramped horrible frustrated souls and particularly children who aren’t touched cause an incredible amount of damage. i, for one, and deeply grateful that i live somewhere where children can be touched hugged and yes even kissed by their teachers at kindergarten. thank god.
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…so anyway, those are some of my thoughts for now
I have to say thank you for this, so much of it rings true for me. Both with my ex-wife and with the person I found myself dating afterwards. My two favorite quotes:
“People who are not burdened with things like conscience, guilt, remorse or empathy, can go very far in life.”
“Learn to be OKAY with being the “bad guy.” Being the good guy is over-rated.”
The first one because it’s so true and the second one because I personally have such an issue with that. It’s been “bad” to not do what is wanted of me for so long I don’t even notice when the boundaries I’m trying to setup are destroyed half the time.
Hmm maybe SOME of those young men in London had a point….
where oh where can I find a site for grandparents who are part time care givers to granchilden. Have done this for 5 years as son is out of town with his work and has residential primary custodialship/ His X (thank goodness I can say”X”) is medically diagnosed bi polar, borderline personaliy and mean as a snake. She is currently PG with her married BFs baby and lives openly as husband and wife while girls with her in contempt of court order. Girls are 8 qnd 10. She cusses us out when the mood strikes her, ignores PP while holding us to it. Legally all we can do is say”following PP, I think. She believes she is indeed “the golden uterus”. Horrible fights with her boyfriends, drunken wrecks while she had girls, but is still GU or MOTY (mother of the year) Any help for us? Yes, we have an attorney
I’d like to see a list we can all add to of the boundaries we have created. It’s hard to create boundaries to keep crazy land out. A wall you build on your solid ground, doesn’t work against the missiles launched from the moon. A border you map out doesn’t stop the worms from seeping up. My boundaries are for me to acknowledge to myself that I have the ability to create them. Some are exceptional, and others that have not worked, I have forgotten. The only boundary I know, and have to remind myself of every day, is to not answer any email unless it is a court order or a third party would deem an emergency.
For my entire relationship she made me feel I was always one step away from being a good guy. I tried and tried and tried. I love the advice here to be the bad guy. It helped me catch myself from responding tonight to her email where she claimed she was “horrified” of the risks I exposed our son to when he and I rode our bikes to school.