You’ve used logic, reason, ultimatums, bargaining and begging to no avail. Your wife still won’t go back to work even though the kids are in school full-time. You may ask yourself why she spent time and money on an education only to unempower herself by becoming financially dependent upon you. It’s a valid question.
Being at home for the kids after school, shuttle services and taking care of you are plausible excuses, but they are excuses and flimsy ones at that. Let’s be honest, has your wife achieved Donna Reed status or does she complain about the menial aspects of housekeeping, cooking, laundry and driving the kids everywhere? Do you eat a lot of takeout food and pre-prepared meals?
So what’s the deal?
Many women still harbor the childish wish to be taken care of. The wish to be taken care of is natural, we’ve all had it at one time or another. Usually when we’re scared, sick or uncertain of the future. Then reality kicks in and we remind ourselves that we’re adults and take care of business.
By voluntarily giving up her career and making herself dependent, she’s infantilized herself and placed an unfair burden on you. Also, if you have a daughter(s), what kind of role model is she setting? Why should you encourage your daughter to go to college much less save for tuition when mom doesn’t use her degree(s)?
Your wife is another dependent, just like your children.
Except that your wife isn’t a child. She’s an adult who refuses to grow up in this respect. Women with a modicum of intelligence aren’t happy in this role. They’re stuck; trapped between an insistent, unrealistic wish to be taken care of, the desire to be recognized as an equal and their fear of being an independent adult.
Your wife’s wish to be taken care of and dependency on you will eventually breed resentment and anger in both of you. She’s angry and resentful about needing you and you’re angry and resentful because you’re shouldering the burden and she’s mad at you because of it. Crazy, isn’t it? This is called hostile dependency.
Why does this happen?
Because no matter how powerful her childish wish for security is, SHE IS AN ADULT, which creates an unconscious conflict within her.
Shrinkwrapped explains,
These people are unaware of their dependency needs and often will loudly proclaim how independent they are; at the same time, their behavior reveals their need for a parental relationship with others who are emotionally important to them. Developmentally, they’re adolescents and resent their dependency on their parents who embarrass them, often disgust them, and constantly fail them by virtue of their shortcomings as human beings. Adolescents have a number of developmental tasks to perform before entering a psychologically healthy young adulthood. They must give up… the feeling that all options are open to them; they can no longer hold the fantasy that they can grow up to be whatever they want.
One must give up the passive wishes to be taken care of and nurtured. To be independent is hard work and facing true independence (not the pseudo-independence of the child who screams “I don’t need anything from you” right before they storm out of your house and drive to their friend in the car you pay for) is frightening. The comfort of knowing someone will always be there to take care of you and make everything all right is not easily given up; and once given up, the knowledge that there is no one standing between you and the dangers in the night is potentially terrifying. . . Furthermore, because these people are responding to conflicted, unconscious dependency needs, it is literally impossible to satisfy them.
Your wife wants to be taken care of, but wants to be recognized as your equal.
Here’s the problem: A child cannot be an equal partner to an adult. An equal relationship requires that both partners be whole, with their own fully developed identities.
If she wants to be seen as an equal, she needs to be an independent adult in every sense of the word. You can’t be truly independent when you’re taking care of yourself on someone else’s dime. Children get allowances for doing chores, so they can go to the mall; adults earn paychecks to support themselves.
Why is it important that your wife work?
- She’ll build her self-confidence and feel better about herself, which is sexy.
- It will foster independence.
- She’ll be more interesting to you and others.
- She won’t just be paying lip service when teaching the kids about the importance of an education and hard work.
- She’ll ease your financial burden, which will reduce your stress, which will make your time together more enjoyable.
- If your marriage doesn’t work out, and over half of all marriages don’t, you will hopefully experience less of a financial butt pounding in family court re: spousal support.
Standing on your own two feet is scary, but it’s a developmental necessity. It’s part of being an adult and an equal partner. I hope for your sake and hers, she can do the psychological work and go to work.
Want to Say Goodbye to Crazy? Buy it HERE.
Counseling, Consulting and Coaching with Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD
Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD helps individuals work through their relationship and codependency issues via telephone or Skype. She specializes in helping men and women trying to break free of an abusive relationship, cope with the stress of an abusive relationship or heal from an abusive relationship. She combines practical advice, emotional support and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Schedule a Session page for professional inquiries.
Photo credits:
Donna Reed Wannabee by Marci Roth Illustration on Flickr.
I found your blog today, and am very impressed. A lot of this stuff is resonating with me, particularly the borderline/narcissistic girlfriend stuff. It’s in the past for me, but the effects linger, and your articles answer a lot of lingering questions.
Have you read Elizabeth Warren’s “The Two Income Trap”? It’s an nteresting book about how two income families can actually paint themselves into a corner rather than offering more money and options. I can’t do the book justice, but it’s well worth reading, and it made me reconsider the necessity of a second income in marriage.
Hi Kameron,
Thanks! I just read your post, Truth, Damned Truth, and Statistics, and all I can say is, “ditto.” With your permission, I’d like to reblog it on A Shrink for Men. I’ve never reposted anyone’s blog before, so this is a first for me. I’ll link back to your site as well.
I haven’t read “The Two Income Trap,” but have been meaning to get around to it. I’ll pick up a copy before my vaca in a couple weeks.
Thanks again for the positive feedback and let me know if you’re ok with me reposting your blog.
Kind Regards,
Dr Tara
Yes, but the stay at home mom — should be taking care of home. cleaning, cooking etc. When the husband works all day, comes home sink is full of dishes, laundry is all over the place, visible dirt is all over the carpets, dust is everywhere, and the mom says I was on the net job hunting!!! EVERY DAY??? It’s been almost 2 years like this, she lands jobs, but she finds every escuse to not go to them. I am burdened enough.
I have had yet another blow up with my wife. The last full time job she had was before we married 20 years ago. since then she has brought in less than 20K in 17 years. I have paid fro a college degree for her and she will only go after THE job not a job. I am currently under employed and we are drawing on our savings( Her retirement ) to make ends meet. I fear that when I am dead she will litterally have nothing to support herself. Resentment is the word that stand sout most to me in this article
I experienced a similar thing. My wife has not worked at an outside job for a single hour, bringing home not even a penny since we were married 15 years ago. I had warned her early on that backup income was necessary in case we ran into a family emergency like illness or job loss. Well, guess what, I had cancer and was not expected to survive, and then became unemployed after I went back to work. I have since recovered and have been working. Yet having experienced two traumatic incidents in a row in short proximity to each other, she still refuses to go look for a job. She has many excuses and claims she looks for work on the Internet every day but has not sent in a single resume…….She hasn’t even created a resume. At first, she said she wanted to take classes and took an online class but dropped out of that (we lost almost $1K of tuition) because she would not do the homework. She will do anything as an excuse to put off looking for work. It’s been 15 years and the resentment is very high.
To the poster recommending the “Two Income Trap” book, the basic premises of that book are:
1. People who have two incomes often fail to save the extra income and instead increase their lifestyle expectations to match or exceed the extra funds that result from the extra income.
2. The spouse earning the 2nd income will need to incur work related costs such as clothing, transportation, and meals which reduce the net cash realized from the 2nd income.
3. Income taxes on the 2nd income reduce the actual amount of extra cash that you realize.
4. There are childcare costs.
5. it IS possible to earn two incomes but save wisely and avoid the two-income trap of spending the extra income.
My response to this book is that while it is possible for a two-earner couple to squander the 2nd income, it is also possible for a single-earner couple to squander the single income. Earning a total household income does not necessarily result in a worse cash flow situation than a single-earner household. As the author indicates, careful financial planning is needed even if you have two incomes.
As for the case of childcare, this is something that each couple should weigh for themselves. It is possible for a couple to end up worse off if childcare costs outweight the after tax cash flow from the 2nd income.
Lastly, in an environment where many households are two earner households and are able to afford to pay more for goods and services, the cost of these goods, services and assets (i.e. housing) will be determined by supply and demand. The higher demand and the ability to pay more for them will raise prices for everyone, whether you are a single earner or a dual income household. So, everyone is affected. There really is no neutral on this one.
Well written. Well put together. Now leave……………..Nobody gives a crap. We can cry our eyes out while standing on our heads.
Your wife is either mentally unstable, or evil. Stop the denial.
Mine did it all, plus entertained a boyfriend in her spare time………LEAVE NOW! If she wants to keep you interested, she will stop her behavior. If not, count your blessings.
Anon,
I can feel your resentment of the same old thing after 15 years. That was me 4 years ago, its been 19 years for me.
4 weeks ago I finally asked her for a divorce. We aren’t even at the 6 month waiting period to establish residency in Texas yet, but I couldn’t take the lack of action on her part to find a job and on my part to just get this part of my life over.
So, she is the complete passive in everything it seems. She won’t fight anything. Not sure why anyone would do that anyway, but crazy people are everywhere.
We haven’t finalized how the assets will be divided, but come 1 May, we can file for a non-contested divorce and push the paperwork through.
No kids here so its just going to dividing up things and we find new places to put our stuff.
Its nice being able to no longer feel pent up resentment, and finally be able to express myself as wanting a partner, but being disappointed that wasn’t able to happen.
begin quote
” I wanted a partner in all aspects of my life including the financial parts, both the contributions as well as decisions about where to spend any cash flow. However, since you have been unwilling or unable to contribute financially to this relationship, I can no longer contribute in any other way. You might think you love me, but if you did you might have done the one thing that I asked for the past 20 years. Namely, attain some employment to contribute to the financial obligations for this household.
Had you made efforts to that effect, I might have been able to support you, but I see now that I am alone in my dreams and goals of financial independence, and we do not share these priorities in common.
This anger and resentment for how I feel treated by your behavior has led me to this point, a point where I can no longer even tell you that I love you, I am just numb and I want a divorce.
I’m not going to yell or feel the need to drag this through the courts, but all I want is for you to be happy and myself to be happy and I now know that involves us no longer being partners as how I viewed that word when we were married.
No one is sadder that this didn’t work, but I feel that there has been more than sufficient time invested in what I view to be a failed relationship, unmet expectations in what a partnership is, and the healthiest thing we can both do is move on.”
end quote
.That was the gist of it for me. Tears were shed on both sides, but its the beginning of the end on my 15+ years of resentment. Don’t get me started on the missed opportunity costs, the lack of contribution to a society, the waste of talent, the fact that I will now work for at least 10 more years beyond when I wanted to retire.
Totally, f-ed up situation, but I feel much better now than about a month ago.
Best of luck in your situation. You are not alone.
-JSG
Wait until your wife figures out what the real world costs and what responsibility really is. My wife even had an affair and when the reality struck her about three months into the process, she actually called me to ask me to slow down the process so she could find a job with health benefits. Yes folks, she is so ingrained with entitlement she actually has no clue what she was asking me to do.
She really does not give a rusty F%4# and thinks it my obligation to pay for health insurance while she and her boyfriend feast off the $100K cash settlement I gave her, plus a house and half of everything else……….She really can’t help herself.
You did the right thing by bringing this all to a head.
Stay the course. Good luck
Tom G
TomG
Thanks again for all of your moral support and feedback! Its good to know that I’m not alone out here and even though its just pixels on a screen its probably been more human contact than with my supposed partner for years.
I don’t wish her ill, but she has lived a sheltered life for so long that I don’t think it possible for her to function as a completely independent adult, certainly not financially.
Like you said, pay for healthcare, whats that? Let alone rent, gasoline, electrical, insurance, groceries, etc.
I just hope she “figures it out” and starts doing something about her life, since this gravy train has a departure schedule to keep.
Cheers, and I hope you and your sons are all well.
-JSG
Man Tom, this sounds like my situation too. I met my wife back in 95 while I was 20, she was 26 and had a 3 year old child from another relationship. I moved in with her approx 3 months after going with her, and I raised her boy as my own. We got married 2 years into our relationship, and have been married ever since. In the 20 years we have been together she has worked a few part time jobs for a total of the equivalent of a 2 year full time job. She was an out of work esthetician when I met her, and she always wanted to get her career back, so 2 years ago I paid almost $9000 to get her her laser cert. Since graduating almost 2 years ago, she still has no job. We fight about her not working, and yesterday she told me our account was in overdraft, and I blew up, and told her she needs to go get a job, and to quit waiting for “THE JOB.” Obviously she didn’t like it, and called me names, and says I yell at her all the time.
She talks about wanting a vacation home, and going on trips etc, but it is tough when I am the only source of income. I make over $100k, but I drive the old car to work, while she drives our new one. If she worked we could live a fairly comfortable life with a vacation home, and to be able to go on trips when we like. I am nervous about my retirement because we do not have much at all put away because we have lived off of what I make all these years.
Her job is somewhat specialized, and maybe I should not have paid for her to go do it, because she cannot seem to get hired. I have told her to do something else, and she says she doesn’t want to do this job, or that job. I have told her that a job isn’t always fun, and if it was supposed to be fun, it would be called fun ,and not work, and that causes an issue, but I really mean it. I said to her yesterday, that the people that work at the grocery store, or restaurant, probably didn’t desire to work there, but they do what they have to do.
I also have to do her resume, and cover letter, and email them a lot because she says she doesn’t know how to. I do feel like I have 2 teenagers living in my house, her, and our teenage son, whom by the way, is old enough to stay at home by himself after school. That was a reason for her to stay home and not work because we wanted her to be there for our kid when he got home from school, but now he can take care of himself, that excuse goes out the window.
I am getting to the end of my rope with her. I feel like a marriage should be a team, and both people should be pulling on the same end of the rope together to achieve your financial goals, but I feel like I am a one man show with her. I want more out of this life, and I am wondering if I will get it with her?
Any way, thanks for letting me rant.
Thank you Dr.T for writing this article and thanks to everyone else for sharing their stories. There is a lot of comfort in knowing that I am not alone. Nearly every aspect of my personal story has been addressed in the comments in some form or another.
The one disheartening aspect of all of this, is that there don’t seem to be any success stories here. I don’t see anything along the lines of, “my wife finally got her act together after a 11 years of not working, got a job and is now an equal partner bringing in a great income…”. I’m sure that such as story does exist, but it must be on the fringes. The majority of stories end predictably in divorce or silent resentment. That’s a shame.
I love my wife deeply and do not want to divorce. In fact, from what I’m reading, divorce may end up costing me more stress and money in the end. For me, I think the best course is to simply accept my fate as a work horse. If I open myself up to ranting, I really won’t be adding much to this thread as I’ll simply be echoing what many other men have faced, screaming into the void. I am certain now that nothing will change my wife’s perspective. For whatever reason, she simply will not find work in earnest. All of the typical excuses apply here. Even faced with a now unavoidable bankruptcy, she still fills her time with non-revenue-generating activities that are aimed at keeping her position in our community and possibly to her credit, keeping her sanity. Getting a job and helping with our financial future is not in the cards – if I don’t make it happen, it will not happen – period. This is an argument that has been had repeatedly for well over a decade.
For my own sanity and survival, I am putting my head down and focusing on working even harder to make ends meet for our family. The alternative is simply more arguing, more strife and definitely less sex (sadly, her only leverage over me). I wish this weren’t the case, but as you get older you begin to realize that you are not that bigger than statistics – which in this case simply prove that once a spouse has become accustomed to not working, the likelihood of them re-entering the work force is slim to none. In our case, it is indeed an entitlement issue that is multi-generational and unlikely to change during my lifetime.
I will say that the possible difference between my wife and some of the case studies presented here, is that I don’t think she is fully conscious of her actions (or inaction). I don’t think she is consciously thinking that “I don’t really want to work”, and that the various circumstances have led to her paralysis in this area. If I prod her, she will send our resumés for a couple of days and attempt to prove to me that she is giving it her best effort, then slowly slip back into her activities and leisure lifestyle. She takes great care of our home and children, who are old enough now to give her plenty of time to have a fulltime job, but without brining in an income, our money quickly disappears.
It is too late for me, but I’d like to give advice to young men out there considering marriage. Be absolutely clear about your expectations and plan your future together – BEFORE you get married. Live up to your end, and no matter what make sure she lives up to hers. Even if you don’t need the extra income, there are a multitude of reasons why women should continue to work, probably the biggest of which is simple self-esteem. Once that goes and you are the daddy of everyone in your household, including her, it is a very slippery slope.
Have to get back to work now!
getback2work
I feel your pain. I married my first wife thinking that we would both change to grow in unity in our marriage as we are both Christians. Many of my friends who also knew my first wife warned me about getting into a relationship with her. Of course I told them, ” she was different now.” Clearly I was deluded and working off of my own issues when I married this woman. I think that in retrospect I both heard only what I wanted to hear and during the honeymoon phase was fed the party line on how a godly Christian woman should behave. Our courtship and married life was horrible. I was far from being a perfect husband and truly contributed to the demise of our marriage, yet it takes 2 people either make a relationship work or not work. When I left my first wife her narcissistic behavior became even worse with many of the same destructive behaviors which are outlined and Dr. T’s article “Taking Back your Life from a Narcissist or a Borderline” https://shrink4men.com/2016/04/19/taking-back-your-life-from-a-narcissist-or-a-borderline/
Now it has been almost 18 years since we’ve been divorced. I waited six years after I was divorced until I thought I married a woman I was meant to be with. This time around I thought I was going to be more discerning and carefully waited for the right person. Little did I know that I married an alcoholic with significant spending addiction. It amazes me that one of the things we cherished in each other during our dating relationship was our willingness to be honest and address our own personal issues head-on. I now realize “we” were willing to address my issues head-on, but not my wife’s.
As I saw the carnage my two older children for my first marriage suffered as a result of the divorce in my ex-wife’s narcissism, I vowed never to get divorced again. Now that I am remarried to another alcoholic narcissist, I had felt very trapped by my vow. Especially so as I have a 10-year-old daughter share with my new wife. I have been attending Al-Anon meetings and started to work the program which is given me a new strong sense of self, support, a new intangible relationship with my creator, the ability to lovingly enforce boundaries, detached from love in situations which are none of my business, and try to take care of myself. I realize now. My only responsibility is to be true to myself, not walk in denial
I appreciate the insight, experience, and support gained by Dr. T’s blog and counsel as well as the support of others are going through similar or same issues.
You have put out exactly what I am feeling for a 12 long years of married life. I dont like celebrating even my wedding anniversary anymore, it has become a painful ritual since my second anniversary. The article clearly depicts my wife and her childish expectation. Anyway, now I feel I am not alone in this world.
Thanks for this. My sentiments exactly.
What is wrong with traditonal roles? Maybe you didn’t mind your mother going back to work growing up but there are other children out there like myself you wanted there mother’s to be home with them instead of working.
It’s hard working full-time job, trying to squeeze in an education, and being a mother which btw is another job in itself. Try doing that and breastfeeding. That alone burns 800 calories a day. Especially, if you have a physically demanding job.
And mind you these women aren’t just sitting around. They are tending to household duties like laundry and housecleaning. You pay the dry cleaner’s don’t you?
Some women don’t finish their degree before they have children and stay out home for so long they are out of the loop to employment with a substantial income. No work experince.
So the marriage doesn’t work out. The wife just gets kicked to the street? After, she spent years raising children , cooking , cleaning and whatever else. alimony is a form of financial abuse? so is child support? If the children end up with their father their mother would be just as financially responsible if not more.
Deadbeats are fathers/mothers who take no part in helping raise the children they put on this earth and think they can just walk away from there responsiblities. They aren’t deadbeats because they refuse to pay. They are deadbeats because they take no part in the child’s development. So if they can’t handle being there physically and emotionally they sure can financially and they should. That’s why the court system is in place.
Hello again, Kayla,
There’s nothing wrong with traditional gender roles. I’m all for them. You seem to be having knee jerk reactions of offense and outrage to my writing without paying attention to what I’ve actually written.
As I’ve already stated, being a stay at home mom is a legitimate choice, if it was mutually agreed upon by both partners before having children. I know of many women who are well-educated, extremely capable of working with children who are in school full-time (i.e., not breast feeding) who refuse to return to work, opting to go to yoga, shopping, and being an after-school taxi service while placing the entire financial burden on their husbands. Many of these women also have weekly housekeepers.
And yes, in many cases, spousal support is a form of financial abuse as I’m sure many of the men who participate on this site can attest. If a child is in school most of the day and the woman is capable of working, why should the ex-husband subsidize a woman’s choice NOT to work? It doesn’t make sense. Many women go on and on about “sacrificing their careers” for their kids, even when their husbands not only encouraged, but begged them to go back to work. Are they mothers or self-appointed martyrs? In my book, being a self-appointed martyr is just another version of the professional victim and I don’t think women with these attitudes are good role models for their children.
Nowhere on this site do I refer to child support as financial abuse, but now that you mention it, in many cases it seems wrong when women receive sometimes thousands of dollars per month while limiting or denying a loving father who wants to be involved in his children’s lives access to them. There are absolutely men and women who shirk their responsibilities as parents, but I don’t defend them here, so I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make.
The court system is a necessary evil, needed for real deadbeat dads and moms, but in many, many cases, the courts are responsible for separating children from a loving parent (usually the father) based on unsupported, downright false accusations of an NPD/BPD/disturbed/angry/vindictive mother. It’s called hostile aggressive parenting (HAP) and parental alienation syndrome (PAS) and it really does exist. You can Google these terms, too, and read some other heartbreaking stories.
Thanks again for reading and commenting,
Dr Tara
The court system is a necessary evil, needed for real deadbeat dads and moms, but in many, many cases, the courts are responsible for separating children from a loving parent (usually the father) based on unsupported, downright false accusations of an NPD/BPD/disturbed/angry/vindictive mother.
I’m sorry but I find several problems with your response. First of all, deranged women who do use the court system to their advantage are found out in the end. It requires a lot of time energy to lie and sooner or later you will get caught up. I have faith in the justice system.
For example. A good male friend of mine just finalized a messy divorce. He had several affairs throughout the course of their marriage and of course this put her off the deep end. She slapped him with an Ex Parte restraining order and made all kinds of accusations of physical abuse. In the end she had no supporting evidence and backed herself into a corner. The children suffered. This is a classic case of abuse that I’m sure many men have had to put up with.
The court’s commissoners, and judges deal with stories like these on a daily basis. I’m sure they try to look at all the possible scenarios before making a decision. They also refer these accused individuals to have DV assessments and substance abuse screenings. I’m not saying that men don’t get screwed. I just don’t think it happens as much as you beleive.
What I find so offensive about your site is your approach on educating male victims. I find a lot of your views are based on stereotypes. I am curious… are you a fan of the book “Men are from Mars, Woman are from Venus?”
Kayla, regarding your comment:
“I’m not saying that men don’t get screwed. I just don’t think it happens as much as you beleive.”
It doesn’t matter if you don’t think it happens as much as someone else believes, for those of us who do get screwed by these types of women we need support as much as women who get screwed by men. It’s not about the statistics it’s about getting help and encouragement.
Not all bad court decisions are overturned and for those that are, it often takes months and sometimes years to do so and usually at the husband’s/father’s expense. There’s something inherently wrong with a system that acts on a woman’s or man’s claim of abuse without providing any evidence. Meanwhile, the accused parent loses precious time with their child(ren), is made to feel like a criminal and subjected to expensive legal fees, court evaluations, etc., while their exes go about poisoning the minds of their children.
When the truth finally comes out, the woman often gets off without any cost, inconvenience or punishment for committing perjury and perpetrating incalculable damage to her child(ren)’s and ex’s relationship. Next time you Google, look up “shared parenting” and “father’s rights.” Furthermore, divorce isn’t just what happens between a man and a woman; it’s BIG BUSINESS. The courts, court evaluators, social workers, attorneys, children support collections departments, etc. make BIG MONEY from divorces in which there are custody issues. The belief that the truth will come out in the end is incredibly naive. There are many people who make a damned good living banking on the truth not coming out.
Courts often reward the individual who is the most convincing, which frequently has nothing to do with the facts. William Eddy (author of High Conflict Personalities in Legal Disputes and Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist) refers to the type of women I describe as “persuasive blamers.”
Someone gave me a copy of Men Are From Mars… when it first came out. I couldn’t get past the second chapter as I thought it was the usual self-help drivel. Speaking of curiosity, I, too, am curious. Would you find what I wrote so offensive if I were educating women about how abusive men can be? I don’t find your views offensive. I think they’re reflexive, ill-informed, reactive, oppressive and hostile, but I’m not at all offended. We see things differently and that’s ok. However, when you accuse me of minimizing or tolerating physical violence and other things I haven’t written, I will point out what I consider to be errors. Furthermore, no one is forcing you to read my blog. If you don’t like it or disagree with the perspectives and information offered here, don’t read it. On the other hand, I do appreciate the page views.
Thank you for reading and commenting,
Dr Tara
Hello Kayla,
As someone who, with my wife (she’s a divorce mediator), owns and operates a facility helping divorcing couples and individuals coping with divorce I can say with authority that you are absolutely and completely WRONG when you claim that deranged spouses get found out in the end when making bogus accusations against their ex.
You cite just one example of a situation where a vindictive person (in your case, a woman) got caught making malicious claims on a restraining order and seem to feel that’s how they all work out.
Compare that with the tens or even hundreds of thousands that get away with it and inflict humiliation, jail time, financial penalties and the loss of access to the children on an ex suffering in angry, frustrated silence. I can cite a dozen we’ve worked with from memory just sitting here as I type this.
Your absolute faith, that you claim to have, in the Justice system is embarrassingly naive and ill informed. Yes, they have a tough job and are often hamstrung by the law. Yes, many are good people trying their best under difficult conditions…
But the justice system is like any other environment where money and power are the coin of the realm… It’s about money, who you know, who owes who a favor and who’s got the ‘juice’ with the judge. I’ve met court reporters who won’t work in family court anymore cause that couldn’t stomach the corruption and legal shenanigans that goes on.
Don’t take my word for it, ask any experienced Family Court attorney who’s retired. They’ll tell you all you can stomach and more. And tell ’em I sent ‘ya.
Kevin Grover
Divorce Resource Center of Rhode Island
Thanks, Kevin. I’m taking a break for the weekend.
Cheers,
Dr T
Kayla you are crazy! The court system doesnt give a damn about justice when it comes to the father. We all have “friend” stories and you and i both know they are BS when used to make a point on the internet. My children were kidnapped using the court system. This WAS because i was a male. Misandrany is the bane of of todays society and children’s lives are being destroyed because of this female hatred. Your response to this blog is proof you fit in the category of being a blatent male hater. Please disect this for the masangany in which you will portrait it as. I along with others are fed up with this childish behavior exhibited by few females and we WILL seek justice
dbear,
You are right. I do beleive men need a place to vent and support. What I don’t agree with is the kind of advice that’s being given and how venting turns into woman bashing. . I assumed it was a man that generated this site and was astonished to see it was a woman.
And to give some personal insight, I also see this website as dangerous. If the wrong kind of man , a NPD man got a wind of this forum…. the damage it would cause.
It’s been my experience that only tyrants and bullies are afraid of or offended by the truth.
Kayla why do you find information that is helping many men make sense out of the craziness and pain they had dangerous? What if a NPD woman found a site about what jerks men are and you better believe they are out there. Don’t you think women like this are just as capable of using this kind of information to suit their own messed up behavior. What about all the men who come here who aren’t NPD creeps. Kinda flimsy argument, but that’s just my 2 cents.
peace.
Thanks, dbear and macdaddy. I appreciate your support!
I write for you guys and its your opinion that matters. I’m always gratified to know you find the information and perspectives I provide helpful.
Kind Regards,
Dr T
Tyrants and bullies read all sorts of stuff to justify their behavior. This is really no differant. Sure, you can cherry pick, but I read the article with a broad understanding that there are certain aspects that may apply to relationships like this.
My wife for instance went to college and never worked a day since we got married and later had children. She choose to stay home which was a pretty significant stressor to me. Over the years I did get resentful and angry at times that I was not able to fully participate in all the fun stuff she did with them while I was working. After her own internal resentments built, I was accused of not being fully present in our family which was a so hurtful because I did focus on work to afford her those choices. I was also accused of being too controlling of the money aspects of our relationship. I guess I should have just turned over my paycheck and shut the hell up? Fortunatly I invested very wisely and we are now pretty set.
Because she felt her own inadequacy, she started to she a shrink to work on certain “coping skills.” This resulted in a full court press shift and rewrite of history. I am now being portrayed as the person who drove her into psycotherapy because I alone destroyed her self esteem.
Rearly a hot meal on the table when I came home. I have enough of my own self esteem that I would feel funny expecting that at all. The kids ate mac and cheese and pizza boxes were frequent guests in our recycle bin. The house was always clean and clean cloths at the ready, but we are all supposed to now pick up the slack and do for ourselves. However, she has no urgency even doing a resume as our kids are now within college age.
Is it me? Have I been too nice and too focused on our financial security?
I don’t see any ‘women bashing’ here. This site is a terrific resource for men who are dealing or became entangled with with very sick disturbed individual women, not an entire gender. The “women good/men bad” cultural myth has to end. Most men and women are neither saints or demons, somewhere in between. It is entirely naive or self-serving to think otherwise.
Hi Charlie,
Many women, when they’re held accountable, cry “Misogynist” and/or “Woman Basher.” Apparently, it’s abusive to tell a woman she’s being abusive and/or taking advantage. Go figure. Kinda like when you confront a 5-year old about breaking your cell phone and they call you a “Meanie.”
Best,
Dr T
First off, I am not accusing you condoning physical violence. I think the way you write about it minimizes the behavior. I don’t think you can be driven to phyiscal violence. That is just an excuse for those who can’t control themselves and find a way to place the blame on someone else. When somone openly admits to hitting thier significant other and wonder’s why that person is having a hard time getting over it and “uses it against them” I have a hard time having sympathy for them and question who the real victim is.
Second, you may be able to obtain restraining orders under false pretenses usually for a period of 14 days before you have to attend a hearing to prove the allegations. No judge would extend one for more than a year without something solid.
If you were educating women on how abusive men can be and using derogatory comments to describe them and their behavior I would have a problem with it.
As for your reaction to my comments, I have to say I’m not all that impressed. It seems if somone doesn’t agree with you they are either hostile, didn’t get their facts straight or misinformed.
Also your forum is open. So I would assume you don’t mind if somone doesn’t agree with you and would comment on it. I am really shocked at some of your posts and felt I should engage you on them.
I have looked for a forum to help me figure out how to deal with an abusive spouse and have found none that specialize on men in this kind of setting. I really can’t find a blog that references “how to tell if you are married to psychotic asshole” and wouldnt’ be interested in it if I did come across one. Clearly, those women have no respect for the opposite sex.
I am looking for a solution. Not to tell the world how crazy my relationship is. I feel some of your blogs are inflammatory and wanted to give you a female perspective on your work.
Hello again, Kayla,
First, I left you several instances (i.e., direct quotes) in which I not only don’t minimize physical violence, I explicitly censure it. Specifically, a reply I left to one of your comments on the The Emotionally Abusive Woman: You Can’t Reason With a Crazy Person thread time stamped 2009/07/07 at 2:51pm. Many men and women who have developed a trauma response from repeated emotional and/or physical abuse often behave in ways that are totally out of character and which they later deeply regret.
It’s usually when he or she has been pushed to the extreme that he or she has a “wake up moment.” It in no way excuses physical violence, but I wouldn’t label a man or woman who has sustained long-term emotional abuse and finally snaps as a person who “can’t control themselves and finds a way to place the blame on someone else.” I’ve never excused or minimized these instances of physical violence, but rather encourage these people to end the relationship and seek help.
You have written that you have a “crazy” husband. You said you Googled the phrase “how to deal with a crazy person,” which is how you found my site. I assume your ex-husband said and did things that were extreme and pushed you to the limit now and again. Did you always keep your cool and not lash out in anger? Were you always perfectly reasonable when he was at his most hurtful? If you ever verbally snapped back at him, did he ever use that behavior to portray you as emotional or out of control? Crazy, emotionally abusive women do the same thing to men and, even if you have the patience of a saint, you’re eventually going to snap and say or do something you regret. That’s when a person needs to ask him- or herself why they’re staying in a relationship that drags them down to that level.
Second, I know firsthand of many cases in which women have managed to drag out denying or limiting visitation between children and their fathers for much longer than 14 days. Negative legal advocates have plenty of tricks up their sleeves to drag out this process based on little or no evidence. In fact, many attorneys (bad ones) encourage their female clients to make false charges to improve their chances at court.
If you find my criticisms and descriptions of the way NPD/BPD women treat their targets derogatory, it’s because I have no empathy for these women. They are predatory abusers. “Crazy bitch” is pretty common language and, in many cases, well-deserved.
My comments and writing aren’t here to impress you. I’m here to inform and empower men who have been targets of emotional, psychological and physical abuse. I can understand why some women are uncomfortable with what my readers and I have to say. I welcome comments from readers, whether they agree with me or not. However, as I’ve already stated, I will stand by what I write and point out when people make inaccurate accusations about my beliefs and what I’ve written.
There are many sites for women who are in abusive relationships. In fact, they proliferate.
Thanks for your perspectives,
Dr Tara
I read the above, and I agree with everything you say. A woman indeed has a choice to have a career or not work, and a man has no choice in the matter.
As a guy, If I could get away from working for a couple of years, and not be shamed for it, I would do it in a heartbeat.
You know how awesome it is to get FOOD ON YOUR TABLE, FOOD EVERY DAY FOR 20 OR SO YEARS without having a job? This is the PRIMARY motive to becoming a housewife, and everything else is secondary, ternary and ulterior reasons. But those ulterior reasons are usually embellished more to make it seem like they are not lazy so people would not shame on them as much. But nobody can tell me that these women DO NOT ENJOY AVOIDING WORKING IN THE REAL WORLD while being housewives, but that aspect of being a housewife is not embellished. Ironically, it’s the PRIMARY MOTIVATION.
I respect independent women, or women who will actually work again full-time when the kids are older. But the ones who “sacrificed their career” (didn’t) and then unilaterally file for divorce to their faithful, generous providing spouse is mainly who this is all written for.
oh BTW, see the link on my name
Ugh. Thanks for stirring the sh*te storm, Owned. I’d better brace my inbox.
Dr Tara
There are plenty of men out there that choose to stay home and their wives bring home the money.
Do you know how much childcare costs are? For an infant it can be anywhere from $880-1200 a month. What a nice chunk of change to be taken from your earnings. Depending on the financial situation it might make more sense for one of the parents to stay at home.
So, even if later these women who choose to be housewives change their mind and want to rejoin the workforce after their children are older they have a few issues.
1. They managed to complete their degree but have no work experience therefore making it difficult to get a job that is meaningful to them.
2. They managed to complete their degree and have work experience but have been out of the workforce for so long that employer’s don’t want to spend the money or time to train them and get them back up to speed.
They DID take a hit and sacrficed their careers to be around to raise their children.
Hello again, Kayla,
So, because they fell behind on their skills and lost experience these women are incapable of going back out into the work force and getting the experience? They should stay at home forever, essentially collecting welfare checks from their ex-husbands because it’s too hard to find a job or a potential employer might treat them unfairly? Gosh, and you accused me of being derogatory towards women, Kayla. I actually believe most of these women are smart enough and capable enough of working, that is, if they can let go of the infantile wish to be taken care of.
You accuse me of generalizations, but the second point you make is a gross generalization. Finding a job is difficult for most people, especially in this economy. And, no surprise here, but when you take an extended break from work or change careers, you usually have to work your way back into the workforce by taking jobs for which you’re overqualified/underpaid at first or start off at a lower position to learn the skills and work your way back up. It just means you have to put a little more time and effort into it and deal with some possible jerks. This is true whether you left employment to be a housewife, to start your own business that fails, took early retirement and lost your savings or your spouse dies and doesn’t leave enough money for you to survive upon without working—except that the ex-wife is the only one who seems to be exempt from having to stand on her own two feet.
The belief system you express in your most recent comment, Kayla, are examples of learned helplessness and hostile dependency—neither of which are healthy for you or others who interact with you. Many people have to take jobs they don’t like in order to pay the bills and be responsible adults. It’s called being a grown-up, which is in direct conflict with the entitled, infantile beliefs many ex-wives have about not supporting themselves.
I don’t believe women and their children should be put on the street (as you mention in one of your other comments). Children should receive reasonable support until they are 18–IF the mother does not interfere and and deny the father access to the children and should receive spousal support for no more than 2 years if she is capable of working. Two years is a more than ample length of time to get up to speed on skills and find a job. And, yes, many of these women will not be able to replicate their marital standard of living with their own jobs, but here’s a newsflash, you’re entitled to the lifestyle you can earn, not what someone else can earn for you. Furthermore, ex-husbands who are paying through the nose year after year no longer enjoy the marital standard of living either when they’re the ones actually earning the money. There is no logic you can use to explain this to me. Saying something “isn’t fair” is not logic. It’s the emotional reasoning of a 5-year old.
Many of these women refer to being a housewife/stay-at-home-mom as a “job.” Ok. Let’s go with that. I’ve lost jobs before and filed for unemployment. The unemployment benefits I received were a fraction (1/3) of my previous salary and they didn’t go on forever and ever until I felt ready to go back to work. Knowing that I had a ticking clock hanging over my head to find a job to support myself was pretty good motivation. My next job didn’t pay as much, but I don’t resent my former employer and demand that he keep giving me money when I no longer have a relationship with him. If states handled unemployment like most of them handle spousal support, I probably never would’ve looked for another job either because it is hard to find employment even when you’ve been in the workforce without interruption. I have absolutely no sympathy for women who adopt these attitudes. They are the reason the negative stereotypes you bemoan exist, Kayla.
Dr Tara
Even in the best of marriages it’s naive not to consider what you would do if your husband divorces you, looses his job or dies. My husband and I agreed I would stay at home with our son for a few years, but I made sure to have my BA before I had my son, and I’m planned ahead to work on my masters and to volunteer in my field, so I can successfully renter the workplace.
Woman put themselves in a dangerous situation when they assume they can just stay home for the rest of their life.
I love you Jennifer just for this answer. I’ve been married for 8 years now and tried to get my wife to work like maybe 2 years in all in all these years. It was something I asked her for her commitment much before marriage. Even in all her friends circle, literally every single lady I know works. I really am in a confusion how she’d be able to take care of herself and our kids if, God forbid, something happened to me. As a man, I can take care of things to the best I can, but over that, it would depend on her too. Irony of life, even her mom and my mom (her mom in law) were working moms. My mom now stopped due to health issues and her mom is still working. Just about whatever I do doesn’t seem to help. You know, her line actually gets paid much more than mine even with half the exp she has compared to my exp in my line. And yet, she just doesn’t even apply let alone attend interviews.
You dont need a degree to work at walmart. Being a stay at home mom is the greatest gift of all. You say you cook, clean, and take care of kids. Well guess what. Your always going to have to cook and clean. My ex wife just stayed home got fired and would not go back to work. And when i put my foot down after 5 years she left me and got custody of our daughter and i have to pay child support now. I love my child to death and i miss her when she is gone. Its so bad when she goes back to her moms i have to close her door to her room cause it hurts to bad to see her stuff around. Oh and the reason my ex got custody was because i have a job and she didnt so she could be their for her more. Our child is in school and i work 40 hours a week and feel like i got punished for having a job. Now our child is 11 and my ex is still a stay at home mom or a 30 year old retire as i like to put it.
I’m so sorry. It’s what Husbands and Fathers are put on earth to do I guess. I’ve explained in previous posts that our son has been in rehab. He finally recieved his HS diploma and my wife is pushing him to apply to 4 year colleges. I have my values and a boy who did and sold drugs, failed HS, and had a gun in my house does not change his stripes in 8 months….so, as I said from day one. He is now back home and fully expecting us (me) to underwrite a $37 K/ year college in Arizona becasue he has a pulse. think of it. A young man with substance abuse and behavior problems goes away to live on campus…..I don’t even have to imagine that outcome. I put it this way (I say amost nothing anymore. I refuse to engage) that everyone should have an education, but nobody is entitled to one.
Of the four people in our home, two people do not work, and two get up EVERY day and do what we are supposed to do. Me and our youngest son. Again, I made it clear (in the most constructive and calm way I could) I will do whatever it takes to protect him and me.
There are two others who have the untapped capacity to make all their dreams come true, but have chosen impose their “wants” onto the other two.
I get it. The writing is on the wall. When it comes to the 11th hour (that is the pathology in our family. My wife refuses to engage until the last second and then threatens in the most passive agressive way possible) to get her way. Whether it be, blame, shame or guilt. PLUS, I have her family pouring on at the same time, but unwilling to pass the hat.
It is coming to critical mass very quickly, and i full anticipate ,and prepearing for your same fate. She will get her way through the bias legal system, continue to rescue cats full time, and life goes on. Simple!
I feel your pain and have withdrawn totally from her physically and emotionally. If she “goes there’ I listen empathetically, while being totally unhelpful. I’ve read all the woman self help books on what to do before you file for divorce. Oprah has now turned into a good source into the window of what the world is regaurding legal and social landmines of how men are played like base fiddles. The articles and radio shows from “O” magazine explain how halarious that process can be for woman under the odd idea that this is how woman can “empower” themselves and unapologetically shed the abuse of men who have the gaul to question what they are getting out of the relationship. Men getting angry about being treated as an ATM and an emotional piece of funiture… who would have thought?
I once asked my wife that is she woke up tommorrow in her “perfect world” what that would look like? She had zero answer, however i suspect nothing much would change except having to deal with me on any level and having unlimited leverage.
Your post is heartbreaking, and I can see the future.
Read Chapter 2. Joan Lundon sums it up……Halarious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://books.google.com/books?id=F2cr0G_ZWmEC&pg=PT128&lpg=PT128&dq=Joan+Lunden+complains+about+paying+alimony&source=bl&ots=it6hulklbf&sig=I_LwBgbUl01cUgBmVZ0NfvdEXKM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QTvjT-jSF8Pg0gGa-I3PAw&ved=0CHEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Joan%20Lunden%20complains%20about%20paying%20alimony&f=false
Hi Kayla,
What about when the kids is a teenager and can fend for himself after school? What would the excuse for staying home be now?
Owned, your own experience isn’t everyone else’s reality. I stay home with my 16 month old son, and my husband works. He’s trying to find a new position on the other side of the country, and I mentioned to him the other day, that towards the end of this year I’ll be close to the end of my masters program, and I can start applying for jobs in the state we want to move to. I asked him, if I get a job, would he like to stay home with our son. He said no. Maybe on a part-time basis, but he wasn’t up to it on a full time basis. Unlike you, he understands I don’t just sit at home and wait for him to bring home the money. I work just as hard as he does.
You should also keep in mind some people have careers that are all or nothing, and are not family friendly. Most jobs don’t end at 3 pm so you can pick your children up from school, help them with homework, cook supper, and get to soccer practice.
True. Sometimes a spouse at home, managing the other side of the partnership is the way to go. My sister-in-law had an MBA and twins – she stayed at home, took care of everything while my executive brother often worked ungodly hours. They have had a happy prosperous marriage for over 30 years.
I know this is to years old and no one will probably read it, but I have to disagree and make a point. My ex husband chose to stay at home with our daughter and I worked for the duration of our marriage. Some men DO have a choice, and it was a choice that worked for us, and worked well. The idea that men are locked into the role of ‘provider’ for ‘his woman’ is antiquated. I had more earning potential therefor I worked. Plain and simple.
Dr. Tara,
These women choose to stay at home to raise their children. They happened to want to be more involved and probablly see working as taking time away from their ability to watch thier children learn and grow. They want to be there every step of the way.
Husbandsin a healthy relationship should be able to understand that need. They expect their wives to support their need for a meaningful career. Why can’t they support thier wives wish to stay home? It’s meaningful to them.
And yes being a housewife is a job. So maybe you should try it sometime. You might rethink your position.
Spousal support is not a form of abuse. If the marriage fails and the wife has been at home tending to the household responsibilities and children’s needs while her husband has been working she should be supported for a reasonable amount of time. Especially, if the children remain with her. If she is suffering financially the children will to.
Everyone loses in divorce. Both parties won’t be living the standard of life they are used to. The argument that only the ex-wife benefits is ridiculous.
So the mother denies the father access to the children and shouldn’t expect child support? There are men out there who think they can start a family and realize ‘hey this isn’t what I want anymore’ and just walk out. They are self-motivated and obviously there is no emotional bond with their children. Yet, they think they should be able to drop in and out of those children’s lives anytime it’s conveinent to them? So these women must collect welfare checks that everyone else pays for because this man doesn’t want to be responsible. How nice. Or, what if the father was abusive and neglectful should they be able to still come around? But, they shouldn’t be financially obligated since they aren’t allowed to come around?Tey helped put this child on earth they can and should be held financially responsible. Now, if the mother is denying access because of her own hurt ego and is using her children as tools to torture her ex-husband then that would be an entirely different matter.
I don’t see how saying something is unfair is the logic of a child. You expect to be treated fairly in your relationship how unreasonable is it to be treated fairly
when disentangleing your live’s from one another? The court wants to find the most equitable resolution for both parties. Another way of saying it is being fair.
And by the way, spousal support is a fraction of the amount of funds the wife previously had access to. So I bet that would be motivation for a housewife to find a job. I’m sure you’re employer didn’t give you extra mouths to feed before he cut you loose.
Learned helplessness? Hostile dependency? Oh, please! When your husband decides to leave you with all the martial debt, bills,and refuses to act like a mature responsible man, take care of his child or think he is not financially responsible for child care costs I see no problem demanding spousal support. It’s not like all this debt was incurred by one person. And not only one should be held responsible. Demanding some financial intervention does not make this person helpless or dependent. However, it might make them hostile.
And how would my beliefs on this subject be unhealthy for others that interact with me? I wonder if it surprises you that I do have a full-time career in the military and at one point and time I would have liked to be a stay-at-home mother. Thank god I didn’t at least not with this person I’m currently married to. I could only imagine how much worse my position would be if I had.
I am a supporter of housewives. Most especially those married to men in the service. While their husbands chose a very demanding career path they are at home keeping up with the house, rearing children, and maintaing the family finances. They have been supportive of their husbands and I don’t see what wrong for housewives to ask for the same. You don’t dictate what kind of job yourhusband has and he shouldn’t dictate what kind of job his wife has.
Hello again Kayla,
I don’t understand why it seems so difficult for you to just use the advice Dr. Tara gives here on this site. However, I do realize that much of this information will not cross over to a woman’s point of view. It isn’t supposed to. Female-oriented websites don’t offer apologies for their orientation, last time I checked.
With all the thousands of web sites and books, CD’s and so forth specifically geared to helping women deal with abusive men why do you come to one of the few that deals with the other side of the coin, go into a tizzy and go off on all sorts of tangents complaining about all sorts of issues that are frankly, irrelevant to the site topic.
You are doing what Dr. Tara has written about in some of the other articles on the site: Going on endlessly about your feelings without doing anything about it.
You’ve been victimized by an abusive man as I understand it from your posts. I’m certainly not ridiculing that. But is it possible you can’t fathom the idea of a woman being just as abusive in a way particular to their psychology towards a man? This site is dangerous?
Get a grip, take a deep breath and search around for a site that may be better suited to your situation. Y’know, for women? There are better places to vent.
Kevin Grover
Divorce Resource Center of Rhode Island
i don’t know about anyone else but i’m kinda getting irritated with you Kayla. Like kevin said you’re going off on these tangents and arguments that are based on one example you know about and you ignore the firsthand experiences of all the men here and professionals like kevin and dr T who work in this field.
i have my own experience with divorce and a ex-wife who still doesn’t want to work even though both are kids are in high school. My ex has more advanced degrees than me. she has a masters in organization and mgmt, a nursing degree, and a realtors license. even though there’s a nursing shortage in our city and i have found her jobs that she’s qualified for she still won’t work. she accuses me of trying to control her. i’m not trying to dictate what job she has. i don’t care what she actually ends up doing just do something. if you want ot use ‘its not fair’ i don’t think it’s at all fair what she’s doing to me. i don’t like my job all the time but i go out and there and do it. why do i have to support someone who is more than capable of supporting herself?
Instead she sits back and takes 2/3 of my income and more than half of our joint assets. we had no debt, she’s very capable of working but has made it her full time job to wipe out everything i worked hard for the last 19 years and made it so i can’t save money. her attorney tells her not to work and she keeps finding reasons why she can’t. she doesn’t even need to drive our kids around anymore because our oldest has a license and a car. i know women and men who would love to have my ex’s education and skills and would capitalize on it. it’s a waste.
when i read your side of things they are very one sided and don’t ring true for me. i did a lot of the work around the house. she didn’t like to cook so we ate a lot of take out. she supported me in my career by complaining i was never home and didn’t spend enough time with the kids while she used to complain that i didn’t make enough money and are house wansn’t big enough which was why i was working 14-hour days in the first place. you said that you work full time in the military so why are you angry about what dr T writes? It doesn’t apply to you then.
your comments remind me a lot of my ex-wife. you take one thing dr T says, you twist it around and blow it out of proportion and then you go on and on about it. even after dr T points out how you take it out of context, you twist it around some more. no one here is going to see things your way, but maybe thats why you’re here. maybe you don’t have your husband to have this kind of conflict with anymore and you come here for it. seems like youre trying to control how people here see things and that you’re right just like my ex used to do with me.
it took me a long time to wake up and realize my ex was destryoing my health and mind. she had me ina FOG and i suffered in silence for a long time because if i disagreed with her or stood up for myself i wouldn’t here the end of it just like a lot of guys here.
i don’t usually comment here but i read everything people write. i agree with kevin if you’re looking for people to agree with you there are plenty of womens sites that will unless you like trying to control others and push them into agreeing with you because maybe your husband won’t play the game with you anymore.
i have to agree with the 2 gentlemen before me. sometimes women see this site and they explode with what is written. Kayla… for every example you can give, any guy on thyis site can match you and then some. you have YOUR personal experiences that you are pulling from, and we have ours. this is a site for our experiences not yours. if you can state your case in a calm manner and at least admit that there are plenty of women that Dr. T is talking about, show a little objectivity, then just about everyone here will accept your point of view. none of us are evil monsters hell bent on ripping women to shreds. my ex fits most of this criteria, which is why i’m on this site – to obtain knowledge about where to go and what to do since it’s over and she’s still making my life hell. but never – not once – am i down on women, down on life, or down on love. my posts to this site are very specific to the issue(s) that i am currently dealing with concerning one person. and that pretty much goes for anyone else who is one this site. there is a LOT of knowledge that can be gained from this site – to apply to both sides – if you can only process it objectively instead of taking it so personally. have you yet to see any posts on here that says all women are evil? no? it’s because not all women are evil. and the rest of us are smart enough to know that.
Dear Dr Tara,
I know this article is a little old, but I have a situation on my hands that relates very closely to this article. I’m in desperate need of advice.
My wife and I have lived together for about 2 1/2 years, we have a one year old son, and have been married for just over 6 months. About once a month for the past 7 or 8 months, we’ve gotten into a fight about whether or not she should quit her job. Her argument is always, “I want to stay at home and raise our son.” and, “I’m the only woman in our family that has to work.” etc.
Now, just as an FYI, my mother-in-law lives with us, is on disability after a triple by-pass, and offered to be our son’s nanny for the cost of rent and her monthly cell phone bill. It’s a pretty good deal if you ask me, and it’s been working well for 11 months.
To be honest, I would love it if my wife could stay at home. It wouldn’t bother me in the least, assuming we were actually capable of sustaining our lifestyle without her income. But, to be even more honest (don’t get me wrong, I love my wife to death), she is really needy. When I say needy, I mean she likes to spend money. For example, about a year and a half ago she decided she needed a new car, (she had ’92 Pathfinder then, so she really did need one) and she went out and found a Lincoln Navigator that she really liked. We were able to get it financed with a hefty down payment from my savings. Awesome. I was happy with the deal, and so was she… for about 6 months. After which time she decided she needed a new car because the Navigator was, “Too big.” I managed to put off trading it in for another year if only to gain some negative equity back. We recently went down and she found a new GMC Yukon that she likes (which, in case you haven’t notcied, isn’t any smaller than the previous…) Fine. I’m happy with the Yukon. It’s really nice, and she seems happy with it so far also. (I personally prefer to own a Chevy over a Ford anyway, but that’s another discussion)
But, obviously, here is the problem we face. She likes to have new things. Hell, I like her to have new things also! But, it’s just not possible without her income. If she lived more like me, maybe it would be. I drive a 1995 GMC pick-up with 220k miles. I like my truck and I won’t be getting a new one anytime soon. I still like to eat Ramen Noodles, she likes to pick up Olive Garden. I was happy with my 24-inch round screen TV, she made sure we picked up a 57-inch LCD… and another 30-inch for the bedroom. I like Folgers coffee, she needs Starbucks for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. etc, etc, etc. I could go on and on. To be honest again, I actually like this about her! It helps me to enjoy some of the finer things. At heart, I’m very much a bachelor in that I require very little to live, and she encourages me to live better.
However, the problem still remains. We barely earn as much as we spend. And now we’re fighting because she doesn’t think she needs to work. I’ve tried to budget with her, to show her how important her income is, but she still doesn’t get it. In my opinion, she has no legtimate reason to not work. We have a nanny who works for far less than she should, and that same nanny is required by the state to hire a housekeeper in order to keep her disability income, so we have a housekeeper.
I honestly can’t wrap my head around my wife’s hang-up. I don’t know how else to tell her that she can’t quit her job. The arguments over this turn into full blown fights, and show no signs of coming to an end. Honestly, I’m scared she’s just going to quit anyway. I’ll have to watch as her car gets repo’d, we struggle to pay the bills, and her credit card gets denied.
What can I say to her to get it through? Please help.
Frustrated
Hi Frustrated,
From your description, your wife sounds entitled, immature, clueless and utterly unempathic.
First, in this economy, she’s lucky to have a job. Second, all of these new things she likes and the UN-necessities (e.g., Starbuck’s, Olive Garden) are all expensive niceties she’ll have to give up if she quits her job. I’m sure you’ve explained that and yet she thinks your salary alone should magically be able to pay the tab for the lifestyle she wants, your child and her mother. Furthermore, in addition to her mother, you have had to hire a housekeeper and a nanny, so what exactly would your wife be doing at home during the day?
I think you have a big difference in values. Living paycheck to paycheck with a young child is a risky proposition. Being a saver vs. a spender is a major values difference. Attitudes/beliefs about money/spending/saving cause a lot of conflict in relationships. Are you saving anything for your child’s education right now? Does she care? Does she get it? And what about healthcare benefits? Not only are the two of you not on the same page, you don’t seem to even be in the same book on this one.
Unless your wife grows up, I don’t see this issue being resolved. She’ll feel resentful about not being able to stay home and sip Starbuck’s all day and you’ll begin to feel resentful because she’s making you feel like you’re not an adequate provider. Wanting to quit her job and the emotion and entitlement she has around this issue are not based upon reason. Therefore, explaining the very simple concept of a budget and the no brainer concept of “if you want nice things, we both need to continue working” is not going to work. You may as well be talking to a wall.
Perhaps if you speak to an objective third party expert (e.g., a financial planner), he or she might be able to get through to her. From what you’ve written, she doesn’t seem to want to hear reality from you. Alternatively, you could propose that you quit your job and stay home with the baby and let her shoulder the entire financial responsibility and let her feel some of the pressure, but that probably won’t go over very well. I don’t think there’s anything you can say to her to get her to understand. She understands, it’s just in conflict with her infantile wish to be taken care of, which is why I don’t think reason and logic will work on your end.
Anyone else have some advice?
Kind Regards,
Dr Tara
Dr Tara,
Thank you for your response! Your comment about resentment is spot on. Although, I hadn’t really realized it until now. I don’t think feeling that way is beneficial to my circumstances, so that’s at least one thing I can change in order to work towards a positive solution. So, thank you very much for that.
You’re probably right about getting an objective third party. She doesn’t typically hold my opinion or views in very high regard without first getting the approval from somebody else. So, that is definetly something I’ll look in to.
Also, I actually have suggested that I quit my job. 😛 Obviously she didn’t like the idea very much, being as how my income accounts for more than 2/3 of what we bring home. She was able to calculate how that budget would look, in her head, in a matter of miliseconds.
I’m sure you’re tired of hearing this, but I love her to death. Almost unconditionally. Even if it takes me the rest of my life, I’ll try to work towrds a solution.
Maybe I’m naive, I don’t know any better, and maybe I’m just plain stupid. I’m okay with that. I just hope it won’t stop you from dropping me an occasional inspiration, piece of advice, or kind word?
Thank You Again,
Justin
Hi Justin/Frustrated,
FYI, you have a right to feel resentment re: having to carry the entire financial burden when your wife is entirely capable of working. You’re not the one who needs to work on this. You’re wife is the one who needs to do some work, in addition to getting a reality check.
Good luck,
Dr Tara
*edit: I meant to say that feeling resentful is NOT beneficial. 🙂
I understand. A little different here though. When my wife and I married 3 years ago, she had one semester left for her undergrad in psychology. We had a child and she stayed home for a while. 1 yr ago, she WANTED to work again…no problem, I’m up for that. I want her to be fulfilled. Since then she has had 4 jobs and made ZERO money. First she got her R.E. license, then she got certified as a Landman, then she was an apprentice(without pay) to do heart sonograms(she told me this was cheaper than having to go to school for it), and now she is working from the house, trying to get her certification to do Home Staging. Everone of these has COST money. She “won’t take a job for chump change,” and wants to finish her education. Great, except she refuses to finish it anywhere but where she started(a private school that is about $30K/year). Our counselor told her 3 months ago to do some investigation into other schools(she accused me of holding her back, not wanting her to get a degree). She has done none. On top of that, I found out after 6 months of marriage that she had over $30K in deby(75% was school loans though). Ok, a little off subject, but I understand…just a little different. My wife wants to work, but only for the fleeting moment that her latest interest is perked by…oh, and not make any money doing it. I love soccer. I guess I could spend money going to Europe to learn soccer, in hopes of coming back to be a proffesional soccer player. I’ll let you know how that turns out!! 🙂
Oh, and Frustrated…here’s what I would do. Agree to comply with her wishes. However, as a family you need to do a test run. Live off of your income, utilizing no credit, for 6 months. Meanwhile, take her income and put it in savings. If your family is happy with your life style after 6 months, great!! She get’s to quit her job as she desires, AND you have extra savings, just in case something happens with your job. Just my two cents!!
Mark-
How do I put this politely? She doesn’t want to work. If she did, she’d do something about it, like, get a job (yes, even in THIS economy), or finish her education somewhere.
My ex pulled this, too. She worked a few part-time gigs, and was always one step away from finishing school, but never quite finishing it – suddenly changing degree programs, or deciding on a new career path, that would (surprise) require more school/education/training.
Now, in all fairness, she did mostly pull her own with the bills, but I ended up paying for a lot of things (in more ways than just financially).
I don’t know if it’s the thrill of the chase, short attention spans, or just liking to have grandiose plans to better market herself to others. She even derailed my own professional plans (I had to surrender them because they were “selfish”), so that I could support her while she pursued her own. The problem was, her plans changed on a weekly basis, and half of the time, I wasn’t allowed to know about them.
This has gotten long and rambling, due to the hour. But seriously. If your wife truly wanted to work, she’d be working.
I’ve read your other replies, and I wish you luck with the situation. As I”m sure you know, and as others around here will probably tell you, it’s time for you to get out of the relationship.
Let us all know how that soccer apprenticeship works out for you. 😉
Hey Kev, I’m in a similar pickle. I work full time and pay for our mortgage, health insurance and food. We get by, but are not saving. I love my wife dearly and will stay with her however the work chips fall. But, I resent that I have to be the sole breadwinner, and that we aren’t saving for new cars, retirement, and whatever else the future brings. She’s been starting a business for the last three years, and even had two gigs last year. But, she isn’t putting much effort in, and now she’s talking about going for a doctorate in education. I’d support that, it may help her break out of this jobless rut. She’d make contacts and probably find direction. But, that would make our tight finances even tighter. Laugh, I wish I could take a few years off to pursue a PhD! I love research and am a closet statistics nerd. But, I have to work to pay our bills. I’ll stay frusterated but faithful.
Hi Mark,
I agree with Kev. If she wanted to work, she would. Period.
Being a professional student is one way many women avoid becoming an actual professional with an actual career. First they dabble in real estate, then interior design, next they want to become a chef or a charity events planner or a phlebotomist. They take a few classes and lose interest or blame it on the instructor for being “mean” to them.
Meanwhile, you’re still left shouldering the entire financial responsibility plus the bills for her unfinished coursework or, sometimes completed coursework that she never turns into a paying job.
I like Kev’s suggestion. Let’s us know if you try it and how it works.
Kind Regards,
Dr Tara
Hi Dr. Tara
I have been married for 10 years and my wife is someone I have known from childhood and I do love her like crazy. She has stood by me in trying times when my family was actively hostile towards me, and she’s normally very loving and caring and we do enjoy spending time with each other a lot.
Nevertheless, we have had frequent conflicts all through our married life, with many of the characteristics you describe in your posts, especially the professional victim syndrome.
She didn’t work for the first few years of our marriage, and then we moved to a remote area (which was something I wanted to do more than she did, because I needed a quiet and peaceful environment in order to work to set up a new online business) where it wasn’t easy for her to find work. So she didn’t have a chance to work the past 5 years (although if she really wanted to she could have started a business of her own where we were living, and I tried to encourage her to do that many times).
The way she remembers our 10 years together is that she has sacrificed her career for the sake of my work. But I didn’t ever stop her from working, and in fact tried to help her get her own business going many times. It was always the case that she was not motivated enough to really get into it. Nevertheless she blames for preventing her from working, and for then making her feel like a parasite, except that I never said that. I just said being the breadwinner, I deserve respect, and for my time to not be destroyed with tantrums, and to not be yelled at for the smallest things.
She used to say often that she feels useless not working, and I used to say well you are working at home and keeping the fires burning so I can get my work done. I told her you are half of this business. We were in a very unusual situation running a business single-handedly from a remote location, so I did believe this to be truth, for the most part. But now saying this has come to bite me in the ass, because when I tell her I deserve respect, especially considering that feeding us is my responsibility, she immediately takes it to mean that I am calling her a leech.
But I always did and still do consider her running the house and handling other administrative matters a great contribution to helping get our business off the ground, except for the fact that her frequent tantrums and propensity to get angry at me at the smallest things made it very difficult for me to actually work on the business. I would always point out to her that this kind of conflict was inimical to both our interests but it continued.
Eventually she started to say that she was very bored and wanted to move back to a big city. I also figured that she isn’t someone cut out to be a housewife and would not be so temperamental if she was able to follow her own dreams and have a career, so I did what was necessary to move us back to a big city, which is where we have been for the last 6 months.
However things have only gotten worse so far. Maybe it is me being impatient and expecting things to change faster?
We’ve moved to a new country, and to stay here I have to study at University, which I am doing. So now I not only have to run my business but also go study things that I don’t need to, as I’m highly qualified in my field and have over 15 years of professional experience. But I am doing it to keep both of us in this country where we have a better lifestyle, and she can actually find jobs and hopefully a career that she enjoys eventually.
Despite all this, she continues to behave as if I owe her a better lifestyle, to make me feel like I am not making enough money (though I make enough to house us in a brand new city-center apartment, and we have always lived in great comfort and have a fat savings account), and to cause me stress and tension when I really can’t afford the loss of time that causes given all my added responsibilities in our new context.
She recently got a job and since then things have been even more crazy. We have fights that don’t get resolved for 24-48 hours, even though I try to make up even when I didn’t start the fight. Sometimes I think it’s hormones (she does get most irrational a few days before her period) because we normally have a pretty great time together.
But I am starting to be convinced that there is a deeper issue here than hormones or boredom. I feel that she doesn’t respect me, doesn’t realize what effort it takes to build the business and make the cash, and doesn’t respect that I need to have a clear and happy state of mind in order to work with concentration. There seems to be a very pronounced lack of empathy.
In fact, within a month of our moving to this new country, when we hadn’t even found an apartment to live in, and when I was struggling to keep up with the demands of starting University and not falling behind on my commitments to my business’s customers, while also trying to get everything worked out for our new life in a new country, she had a very brief affair with a guy she had hardly known for a week. She did ask me for permission to open our relationship just before that, and I had agreed, as I am in principle open to the idea. (On the other hand, when I had asked, many years earlier, to open our relationship, she had reacted totally negatively to this idea, equating it to some form of perversion).
However I had no idea she was already ready to jump into bed with someone, and especially at a time when I needed all the support I could get from her and she knew it. During this time, I felt utterly miserable and alone and let down. She didn’t actually go all the way with the affair and didn’t actually sleep with the guy, but mostly because he was also a friend of mine and he made the right decision. She did later apologize for this whole debacle and for making me feel left out in the cold at such a difficult time.
But she doesn’t seem to realize that she still continues to do the same thing.
I try my best to accommodate her needs, and I always make excuses for her behavior (oh it’s PMS, or she’s feeling bored, or strange in a new counry, or insecure, or whatever). But I am now feeling like I can’t take it any more and that I will fall physically ill if this keeps up. It has already had a big impact on my health I am sure.
But the worst of it is that I do love her and I know she isn’t a bad person, and is just mixed up in her head and has too many feelings of frustration that result in her taking her anger out on me. And perhaps my telling her that she is one half of our enterprise has made her feel that that she is entitled to repeatedly and frequently destroy my time and my mental peace.
I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to split up with her as she IS my best friend and has stood by me in bad times and I do feel very happy with her when she is sane. But the repeated episodes of irrational anger and tantrum throwing are very very difficult to live with.
Perhaps I just need to give it some time… I have dated quite a few women and I realize that all women have hormones and mood swings, to some extent, and all of us are just humans and give into irrational crap once in a while. Everyone can go through bad phases and it seems to me this is one such, and that things should get better.
But I just don’t know what is the truth. On top of that, she is now 32 and if we want to have kids we need to start trying soon. But I am not sure if I want to have kids with her.
My mother is a 110% true NPD/BPD, possibly even psychotic, and I see too many similarities between her and the way my wife has started behaving of late, and I also see disturbing similarities between the way my dad handled my mom by denying an euphemizing about her (which just ended up making her much worse) and the way I am handling things with my wife.
If my wife is indeed a BPD/NPD and it is indeed true that such people don’t change, then I definitely don’t want to have kids with her or stay with her. On the other hand I don’t want to throw away the baby with the bath water just because she is having hormonal mood swings or is going through a difficult phase in her life.
So I am very confused what to do, and how to go about dealing with this.
Also, she could just be (as she says) stressed out these days because her dad is very seriously and terminally ill and she doesn’t know how long he has to live.
Another fact is that she was repeatedly raped as a child (when she was just 3!) by a family member. She claims to have dealt with it but I don’t think she has and I think that her behavior towards me and others is still heavily affected by that trauma. This is also the reason I think why our sex life has been very difficult. I am quite a kinky person who likes all sorts of “perversions” but she seems very inhibited and closed about sexual exploration and adventures that are in any way out of the ordinary.
Anyway, I have written on for quite a long time… I am very confused. I don’t want to lose the warmth and comfort I feel with her (and don’t want her to be out in the cold either) and yet it is difficult to get on with life when every other day is a 24-hour soap opera.
I would instantly take your advice to leave the relationship if I knew it was really BPD/NPD, as I can clearly see it is with my mom, but in a case like this which is not black or white it seems to be much harder to decide on the correct course of action.
And yes she has threatened suicide several times, though never made an attempt, thank goodness. She always threatens to split up with me when we have a fight, and she often hurts herself when we have had a fight, such as by falling down stairs, not eating for extended periods and then fainting, running away and going to places where she isn’t safe, etc. etc.
Thanks for listening… hope you can provide some tips for this scenario…
Hi Confused,
I read your post from beginning to end and the thing that stands out most (and adds to the length of your tale) is the number of times you make excuses for your wife’s inexcusable behaviors. I can’t diagnose your wife without meeting her, speaking with her and observing her behavior; however, based on your description it seems likely that she has some serious characterological issues.
You have been the sole provider for the last decade. Yes, it takes time and energy to run a household, but unless you’re living in a 15-room house with grounds and children, it’s not that difficult to manage the living space of two adults. I work full-time for a web-company from home, run my own 3/4-time blog/consulting business from home and keep my share of household responsibilities and make dinner 6 nights a week without complaint. I don’t find it stressful nor do I consider it hard labor. My partner earns far more than me and I’m grateful for his huge contribution to the quality of our life together. It makes me feel good to give him a nice place to come home to at the end of the day. I understand I may be a little different, but I just don’t understand what’s so hard about putting clothes in the washer (takes 3 minutes and going back to my current work projects for 45 minutes and then transferring the clothes to the dryer), running a load of dishes once a day, and light dusting and sweeping once or twice a week.
It’s not your fault your wife is bored; that’s her responsibility. If you’re bored—do something (like get a job or start your own business) other than complain about it. You uprooted yourself, your business and started a university program, taking on unnecessary stressors and not only is your wife not happy, she expresses her gratitude by telling you she wants to have an affair. WTF? Not only is this behavior unempathic and ungrateful, it’s abusive.
PMS, an alleged abuse history, a sick father, boredom, confusion—these are all excuses and lame ones at that. Your wife is an adult, not a child. It’s time for her to stop blaming her behavior on others. Furthermore, suicide threats are one of the most abusive things you can do to someone. I think you’re right to seriously consider having a child with this woman. If you have kids with her, you’ll be on the hook for life, plus do you really want to expose children to this?
I can’t tell you what to do, but I don’t think your wife’s behavior is going to get better especially since you’re doing all the work for her. And I don’t mean money-generating work. I mean you’re the one who’s looking for answers, you’re the one who’s doing some serious soul searching, you’re the one who’s jumping through hoops and turning himself inside out to make the relationship better while all your wife seems to be doing is saying, “Gimmee, gimmee, gimmee!” followed by, “Not good enough!” and then the coup de grace, “Would it be okay if I have a sexual relationship with your friend?”
I think your mother’s pathology primed you for the current relationship you have with this woman. As I sit here writing my reply to you, I’m becoming increasingly angry for you. I encourage you to think long and hard about how you want to spend the next 10 years of your life and keep in mind that the longer you stay with this woman, the more of your assets she gets should you divorce. The courts will punish you for staying in your marriage. Even though you think you’re trying to do the right thing by working on and trying to save the relationship, you’re actually just prolonging your suffering and increasing the amount of money you’ll have to give her in the end.
I hope this is helpful.
Kind Regards,
Dr Tara
Tara,
Damn that is a strong message…….So so true.
I’ve posted some of this…but I left out the financial aspect you mention.
In my other post I told you about how my wife cried and told me nice things (first time in 10 years) when I was 2 hours away from signing a lease on my own place. (I caved and moved back in with her….I’m weak)
I didn’t mention that this was the 27th of the month……and all her “support” that she had in her back pocket turned out to be empty promises from her Mother and our Church….
She was convinced a week earlier that those two entities would gladly support her if I was out of the picture…….It takes ~$6k per month to keep the doors open in my house.
Well, Her mom’s support turned out to be a $200 check and the Church was willing to supply her with $400 in Grocery vouchers………Oops….
She has no Job….No savings…no prospects for a Job….has not worked in 17 years……
I’m almost sure her change of heart was self preservation.
Hi jham123,
You’re probably right, which is also why you should be concerned about her “friendships” with the triple divorcees on facebook.
So much for you not doing enough to support her all these years (mentioned in one of your comments on another post). These women truly do suck one’s life blood.
Kind Regards,
Dr Tara
FABULOUS! It’s about time this was put out there. I am copying it and mailing it to the women in my neighborhood who ask my 11 year old daugher if I don’t love her because I have a PhD and run a laboratory as a univ faculty member! They tell my child when she visits their daughters that if I loved her I would stay at home…and they have told me that if I was going to choose work, I should have been held down and forcibly sterilized. Yes, this is in an affluent neighborhood in SC where wives of physicians actually, really, truly say this crap! They like to brag, “Well, my husband is a doctor.” I like to reply: “I didn’t have to marry one; I became one myself.” I loathe these selfish, money-grubbing, lazy women.
My daugher reports to me that the children of these self-satisfied pigs complain all the time about having no freedom (MOM MONITORS EVERYTHING THEY SAY AND DO), no privacy (mom is ALWAYS IN THEIR BUSINESS because she has no life of her own), and no reason to achieve anything if they, too, will be shunned for getting a graduate degree and a high-powered job. THANK GOD my daughter has never had to deal with the drivel spewed by underachieving borrowed-money/status-****** like the SAHMs on my street. I wonder what they would do if their husbands died or lost their jobs…or left their fat saggy asses for more appreciative, hard working women.
Yes, they complain that they take care of the kids, take them to school, cook a new dinner nightly, and all that…well, hell, so do I! And I stay fit, sexy, and full of zeal for my husband. Hmmmm….seems a working girl can have it all.
You ROCK, Dr Mom!
I’m astounded and horrified by what the mothers of your daughters friends say to her. Even if they think this way, you don’t say that to a child. Seems to me they’re desperately trying to justify their over-privileged wastes of space existences by slamming you and other hard working employed mothers. My hunch is that as doctors’ wives, they’re not on their hands and knees washing the floors and scrubbing the toilets. I’m sure they have hired help doing what they supposedly elected to stay home and do.
These women are lost causes. The people I feel sorry for are their children.
Best,
Dr Tara
Upon first reading this blog I was upset by your comments just as much as Kayla was, however as I kept reading I saw glimpses of me in the posts. I know that I blame my partner for impregnanting me twice and not taking the precautions I requested at the time, so now with five children I barely let him near me, and expect him to provide for me and my three children from my previous relationship in the way that I had become accustomed when I was working full time and a sole parent. He constantly complains about the costs of living and I do not listen to his complaints because of my anger towards him and just comment that it is what life costs (he moved out of home at 40 to live with us when I fell pregnant because he believes it was the right thing to do). My youngest is 7 months and our son 2 years I did take a contract and return to work when our son was five months however it was too stressful for the household. I have also had some recent bad experiences using a child care centre. Reading your posts has started me thinking about the deeper issues to my problems with the child care centre, my desires to stay at home until my younger two start school and my recent change in study direction. I am currently on maternity leave and expected back at work in Jan 2013, therefore I have not found your blog too late. The first step for me is to seek out a family day care provider I am happy with, then seek out a way to come to terms with the additional children I now have. My job bores me, but after reading your blog I see how I need to grow up, go back to work and study at night finishing the degree slowly, so that I can contribute to supporting my three children from my previous relationship, and be completely responsible for my own life. For the past two years I now see how much I have spiralled out of control, I used to be like Dr Mom, strong in my convictions to work, but now I see how I am lost in the anger and the victim status I have created for myself. Thank you for your blog and your straight talking.
Grateful
Don’t want to sound too self serving, but I read that you are examining your role within your family as financially responsible to your families well being and security by not delegating that task to your husband. Hopefully he shares in everything else concerning your children, house chores, etc….
I’ve come to the conclusion (many actually) that I never promised, bought,agreed to take care of, water or weed anyone’s rose garden. Family is serious and difficult and a team effort. It’s a breeding ground for resentment, anger, anxiety, depression and fear.
It’s nice hearing from you. It assures me that there are mature mates out there. Thank You!
OMG…
Oh, I know this one too well DrMom…I went through it as a single working Mom years ago.
I just finished my MS, and started my doctoral program this fall. I guess if I love my kids I should quit school. NOT!
All I can say is when did you do a psych evaluation of my wife. I have been dealing with this issue for over a year now and my wife is being totally unfair about it. We are going broke and getting further in debt and bankruptcy is right around the corner. Last week my wife was offered a good job. The same job she used to have, that had been held over my head since she left that job when I was offered a higher paying job in another state. When we moved I said she could stay at home with our 3 yr old and adjust for 6 months. Since the new job paid well and we had some savings it wasn’t a big sacrifice. Plus she was going to get certified and all that. Now it is 20 months later and she hasn’t gotten certified and just rejected a good job with great benefits, because she would be 30 minutes away from home.
I’m ready to throw in the towel and declare bankruptcy and file for divorce. I hate the thought of bankruptcy because I am a professional with an MBA and a career. Yet, I’ve tried to support our family to the best of my ability, I just didn’t plan for us to have just one single income for this long. Had she taken the job the debt wouldn’t be a big deal. Since she didn’t I’m not sure I can make the mortgage payment next month.
This reminds me of a quote I once read: “To say that today’s women are independent is like saying a teenage girl is independent because she has her own bedroom in her parent’s house.”
The thing that really kills me about the stay-at-home wives of my friends is that . . . well . . . they don’t do much. Really, they’re just glorified babysitters whose job it is to make sure the kids don’t kill themselves or each other before daddy gets home. And when daady gets home, it’s ‘Mommy’s time off, because she’s worked so hard all day.’ These women don’t cook, don’t clean, don’t handle the household bills . . . pretty much, they’re useless. And they’re ALL COLLEGE GRADUATES. Honestly, most of themn couldn’t find their own a__holes without a compass.
And to top it all off, these gals are usually unhappy and resentful.
This is why God invented hookers!
metalman,
The term, “glorified babysitters” that you used should win a Grammy. It is a powerful metaphor that should go into the vocabulary used to describe all “Cluster B’s”.
Women who work are more likely to get a divorce. They are less likely to put up with mistreatment and abuse from their husbands. If your wife works she may have more confidence in herself but she may not have as much confidence and energy for you.
Do you have statistics on this? Not being snide. I’m interested in them for research purposes.
Thanks,
Dr Tara
I have no idea of the validity of your argument or not, so I’ll just take it at face value, and hope that you can provide some of the statistics that Dr. T asked after.
What intrigues me, though, about this suggestion you make, is how it played out (in my case, anyway), the exact opposite. Maybe you can shed some light on this.
To wit, I worked full time. I supported my ex because she wanted to take the summer off, ostensibly to finish up her final project for graduate school. At least that is what she told me. She barely touched it the entire summer. Yet, she became increasingly more abusive to me: rages, silent treatment, name-calling, isolating me from friends and family (because I was “obviously” sleeping around, even though -a- I wasn’t, and -b- there was no eveidence), gaslighting, embarrassing me in public by screaming at me for things I hadn’t done, accusing me of lying about being in the hospital, even though she’d been there with me the entire time, and more.
Working full time did not give me the “confidence” as you put it, to put up with the mistreatment and abuse I was getting from her. I sank into despair, lost my functionality as a human, and gradually became a hollow shell of a human. I couldn’t remember to eat. I couldn’t remember to get dressed. I came dangerously close to suicide.
So, why do you think the “work builds confidence in oneself and makes one less likely to put up with mistreatment and abuse” only works the one way? It didn’t pan out the way you describe for me. Is it because I’m a guy, and therefore somehow “different”?
Or are you suggesting something else? I’m just trying to understand your point.
thanks,
-K.
Julie, that must be why my ex-wife, who refused to work and was exactly the “glorified babysitter” mentioned above (didn’t cook – bought frozen; didn’t clean, had a cleaning lady; and didn’t watch the kids all too well, either, since she had after-school help that I paid for, or me in a home office part time, and when she didn’t she would often call me to come home early so she could go to the salon) left me and our child because I wasn’t making enough money to support her the way she thought she was entitled to.
P.S. She had a graduate degree and, prior to children, more varied job experience than I did.
http://www.personneltoday.com/articles/2005/07/11/30692/working-women-more-likely-to-divorce.html
I found one.
It sounded feasible, so I googled it.
No study details here only abstract and thus cannot investigate the study design.
There appear to be inferences made which I am not sure how there were drawn once again without reviewing the study design and detail.
None the less, interesting thoughts and conjectures which are clearly food for thought.
“Less likely to put up with mistreatment or abuse..” A woman should not put up with either in any case. Certainly not for the right to remain unemployed. To suggest that a woman standing up for herself is a loss to the marriage and husband screams volumes regarding what you consider ethical behavior of a woman and or wife.
Julie here is another example of how deep seated and cancerous the ” happy wife happy life ” clause has become to: 1) Marriage as a meaningful institution. 2) The integrity and universal value of the female gender. 3) Any respect or consideration due to a man regarding his right to pursue his own happiness wihout contingency to another individuals.
All too often I see socially accepted marriages founded on the blind and grossly negligent perception of marriage as an opportunity carry the torch, and continue where the wife’s father left off in raising a daughter.
hi. i am a sahm, and i had to give up a lot for my child. i moved across the country to live with my significant other’s family, gave up returning to school b/c of the lack of money and lose my entire life basically. i loved working, and i would love to be working now. i value my independence and hate relying on my boyfriend and family for support, but for the sake of my child, i choose to be there for him.
i am sleep deprived, can’t take a crap when i feel the urge, nor can i always eat right away when hungry because my child comes first. i take rearing a child very seriously, and young children really need that foundation of support; the constant presence of a mother (or mother figure) for support.
what im trying to say (as i type this with 1 hand b/c my baby is sleeping on my arm, being crabby and teething!) is that being a sahm is a difficult job, but you cannot compare it to any job the person NOT at home is working. i have worked until having a child, and it is like comparing apples and oranges. you can really half ass any job, mothering included, and get away with it if youre good…but give us sahm’s the benefit of the doubt…i dont leave my baby to cry sp i can take a shower, i dont make him anyones responsibility my my own when im alone during the day. i put my all into mothering, breastfeeding, and showing my kid the world.
im not trying to overly glofify myself, but i think its a problem when no one can value what i do for my child everyday due to the fact that i dont recieve a paycheck. wee could have some more money, yes, but at what cost? and there are costs. babysitters get paid, and for them childcare IS a paying job. i may not recieve money for my work, but my work IS important. no babysitter loves my child like i do.
This is a joke. The only reason public opinion has been manipulated to hold that women should work is to double the tax base so that we can keep paying for the government’s misdeeds. Yes, housework, etc. is boring as hell and I will not in a million years pretend that a lot of the “work” I have been doing recently is interesting. I have a 1 year old and another on the way. I was working from home for a while making just under six figures before the layoff but that was fairly boring too considering there was little social interaction. I think that this article is a horrible fiction. Should I stay home with my children I will make sacrifices that are so difficult to make and to call me infantile or willingly dependent is a joke. Some women stay home because it is best for their kids. Also, life itself is a job. Dealing with maintenance people, plumbers, shopping for food, taking care of kids doctors appointments, being present at the school through pta and other volunteer opportunities are all excellent ways to contribute to a family. Far be it for a woman who isn’t bringing in MONEY to complain. Now, in my case I might have to go back to work because I earn double than my husband and the wonderful man drove us secretly into debt while I was pregnant pretty much ensuring that he can’t support us. Lucky SOB.
I find your article disgraceful. Who hurt you so badly that you are this twisted?
Hi Ariel,
Thanks for sharing you interesting perspective on taxes and SAHM’s.
Also, masterful use of the classic shaming/ad hominem attack combo (I find your article disgraceful. Who hurt you so badly that you are this twisted?) It adds a lot to rational discourse.
Best,
Dr Tara
Arial, if you go back to work, maybe your critical thinking skill will improve. This writer wrote very clearly that the case example was a woman who refused to go to work after the children were school age.
Dr. Tara
I cannot express how theraputic your site has been for me. It is so helpful knowing that not only are there so many others in my situation but also that there is someone who clearly knows what we have lived through. I have found that the events I have endured are near impossible for people looking in to believe. I am a USAF pilot married long term to a diagnosed BPD. If you can think of something that would ruin a marriage I have lived it. Multiple affairs, rage, eating disorder, alcohol binges, spending binges, driving drunk with my children in the car, physical assault, relentless emotional and verbal abuse of me and children, distortion campaigns that kept me from my children for nearly a year, damaged my career, and cost me over $100,000 in legal bills. I lived with a master manipulator who controlled me with threats of taking my kids knowing the courts would always side with her claims and victim scenarios. I was paralized with the fear of divorcing and leaving my children in an abusive situation with a woman who at a minimum would destroy them psychologically and at worst could end their lives. I was not willing to take the chance in our slanted courts who always favor the mother especially if the dad is a Servicemember. I decided to stay no matter the cost to me. I had to save my kids. No one believed how bad it was and in our cirlces she was better than the perfect mom, professional, and wife. She was flawless on the outside. To those closest (me and kids) she was Evil incarnate. Long story short, once bitten twice shy I began taping audio of phone conversations of the rage, drunkeness,etc..this past year she finally had one of her normal meltdowns abusing me and the kids and I was able to video the incident. It was a repeat performance of the earlier incident that she was able to remove my children with. The difference this time was the tape. Not knowing the incident was recorded the night culminated with her being arrested for domestic assault. Upon bail she filed a DVP against me with claims of physical abuse of her and the children just like she had done previously. It had worked flawlessly once surely it would this time as well. She even brought pictures of injuries to court to prove I assaulted her (injuries she caused by falling drunk on a gravel road). Although the judge ruled she caused her own injuries did she hold her liable for the false allegation of abuse? NOPE. She then filed for emergency custody of the children she had assaulted. I produced the tape. I got sole temp custody of the children. The children, one of whom ran away that evening seeking help came out with everything they had endured to 3rd party court appointed investigators. It has been 8 months now and she has been allowed to see the children 1 hour a week. Guardian ad Litem investigated and has recommended no unsupervised visits until majority age. Childrens counselor agrees as does DHS. Psychological evaluations diagnosed her axis 1 alcohol abuse. axis 2 BPD. So you think kids and I would be safe at this point. OH no. The Forensic pscychologist report although diagnosing her with BPD threw a wrench at me. Basically stating that I was responsible for rage by manipulating her fragile psyche, I drove her to drink because she had to numb her pain, I forced her into affairs because she had low self esteem, and that I left my children in an unsafe environment in an effort to “catch” her. So now I have become the target. He never once mentioned the affect her disorder had on us. In fact he exonerated her by giving her wiggle room out of responsibility for her actions. Give a Borderline any way to blame or shuck responsibility and they will maximize it. The shrink really screwed this up and obviously is not schooled on thet true aspects of this illness. I was dinged for being paranoid. I fully admit it. Not only are military pilots trained that way but I lived with a BPD for 15 years and had no idea what I was up against. It was predictable unpredicatablility. I always knew something bad was coming I just never knew what or when. Hypervigilance is an understatement. I was paralized in fear. I could not stay in it and remain sane and I could not get out leaving my children to fend for themselves. Imagine calling from Iraq to find your wife driving home drunk with your small children in the car!! routinely. I was HELPLESS. My attorney this past week withdrew under pressure. I warned her early on that she had never been up against a Bordeline of this magnitude. She did not believe me. I am now broke 3 years from retirement and had to hire a very expensive yet skilled attorney (not familiar with BPD) I will eventually go public hopefully with these tapes I have. They are a clear representaion of Borderline pscyhosis. Remarkably even with the tapes responsibility is projected. “This is all your fault because you turned over the tapes”, “I lost my children because you gave up the tapes” Nevermind whats on them just that it was discovered and I can’t lie my way out this time. I remain in a battle of epic proportions to save my kids even with mountains of solid evidence and reports. The biggest issue now “why were you taping her?” “you obviously set her up”. To which my answer always is. I taped because no one believed me or even had the capacity to. As evidence, even with the tapes I am not believed and she still comes out as the victim. Same reason I couldn’t leave sooner. Look at what I am having to go through to free myself and the kids despite all evidence. Can you imagine me just saying “hey you are abusive and I want a divorce?” If I had not taped I would be in jail for spousal abuse and would have lost my children, my home, my job and likely my sanity based on her word. With borderlines tapes are your only hope. Otherwise what they do is impossible to relay. I would love any advice and would love to hook you up with my new lawyer
I feel so sorry for you. It sounds like the people assessing your crazy wife are more crazy than her to even let her near her children ever again!! She needs locking up away from everyone for everybody’s safety. Mind you a lot of people can be dangerlously manipulative not necessarily violent I’ve met them and they are “so called” doctors?!! Dont give up and hope these crackpot professionals finally see the truth for you. Lots of people
must be in your shoes, women can be total lying bitches and dangerous aswell.
I think the way this works is that the local, state and federal governments do not want to have to use tax dollars to support the kids or the ex-wives so they create a situation in which it is cheaper for the man to keep the family together, no matter what. That is why there is an overemphasis on the idea that the man is “responsible” for everything, basically parroting the attitude of the women themselves who are only out to absolve themselves of any responsibility. It is a lifelong trajectory in which a woman will do anything so long as she can justify in her mind that some man was responsible for it. The majority of men have no idea of just how bad many women are, if they did know, few men would ever roll the dice and get married. They tell a man that if his girlfriend or wife is in a pissy mood or spoiling for a fight while she’s on the rag, he should be extra kind and loving to her so that she may realize she made the right choice in being with him. The reality is that the woman is just itching to cheat at that moment and she’s looking for any excuse to create enough distance to storm out the door in order to succeed. I know women too well to ever marry one. The bitter irony is, my mother and sisters have carried out and perpetrated a lot of the hateful, undermining, belittling and controlling behaviors most men experience from their girlfriends and wives. Some women simply can’t stand to see a man happy, I mean that literally! My moods were actually being monitored and kept in check! They took advantage of the fact that they had proximity to me, by reason of the fact that we are of the same family, to make my life hell! Coldly, calculatedly, underhandedly, covertly, but also abruptly and in your face. Each one had her own approach towards bringing me down, trying to destroy my work life, reputation, peace of mind and tranquilty. One of them even went so far as to repeatedly state that she was trying to drive me to suicide. They are all unhappy in their own lives, but what in the hell does that have to do with me?!!! The worst of the bunch, the one who has always been the most upfront in her hatred has repeatedly dragged me to court only to manipulatively tell the judges that she wasn’t interested in pressing forward because I was her brother, she cared about me and she didn’t want to wreck my job prospects. At no time did she tell the judge that every word of her complaint was false. She tried playing the virtuous victim. It didn’t work. Not only could the judges see right through her but, interestingly enough, every single woman in the court rclearly ecognized the game she was trying to run on me. Which tells you how commonly known these tactics are among women.
An interesting study that claims most working women are actually less happy then they were 30 years ago.
http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/papers/2009/wp09-11bk.pdf
You know why Women are less happy? Because it’s proportional to the amount of stuff they don’t have. Women always want what they can’t have. Ever see a woman marry a nice man and destroy him? Same reason. My wife is incredibly capable of working- can make nearly as much money as I do (shes an R.N.) We’re pretty well screwed w/ the housing bubble and have lots of debt to pay off now, our youngest is almost 5 years old, but she just does not want to go to work and has every excuse in the book- her mom stayed home, her sister stays home. I have a super high stress job that drives me to the edge, long hours, weekends, 9-10 hr days, the bills pile up, 1 week of vacation yearly, and there’s no escape. I’m depressed about it all, and can’t fix the situation. She has the ability to help address the problem but wont’ get off her rear end to job search. She says she’s not ‘called’ to job search because she’s a christian mom. We’ve been married over 10 years and always threatens to leave me when we get into an argument and run home to her parents. I’ve been employed the last 11 years, and when she got a job last year right before we were about to miss our first house payment, she was fired from it two weeks later because it’s almost as if she intentionally wanted to get canned.
I hope you don’t really think this is true of ALL women! I take offense to the notion that I, as a woman, must be some insatiable harpy, lol.
I have three kids, and I work and have worked since day one, in some capacity. I work for an indie publisher, which thankfully gives me the option of telecommuting, and I freelance as much as I can. I do this with two young children too small for school, and I cook almost every meal from scratch (I’m a vegetarian so I often don’t have a choice in this regard lol).
My husband is constantly trying to get me to stop working and stay home. He was raised to want a Donna Reed type, and that ain’t me, lol.
My point is that not every working woman is unhappy. I love what I do and I as much as I love my kids, and treasure the time I get to spend with them due to my flexible job, I also look forward to the day they are both in school full time and I can go back to the office everyday.
oh and ps. I have short and sweet advice for most of you guys.It wont make an ounce of difference if a women works or doesnt work if she is mental or does not love you anymore. Its not like women who do not work have the majority on psycho. The truth is your choice in a mate was probably just a poor choice for you. You need a working women and thats fine,and her trying to make you take care of her when you dont want to is wrong! But….. its just as immature and nieve for you do just expect your wife who obviously wants to stay home to change. Once this ideal has been ingrained on either side its hard to reverse. Most people are just better off figuring this stuff out before marriage, but guess thats too much to ask 😛 I know its hard though because alot of people are not honest about expectations. But that goes for men and women!!
Jen:
Since you seem to have taken the liberty to dispense some free advice, allow me to return the favor:
You are exactly right when you say that “people are just better off figuring this stuff out before marriage…” Two things:
1. A person with NPD or BPD can FOOL the spouse into believing they are one person and then after the marital papers are signed, can completely change their promises…and their attitutes. They say one thing ( I want to work…..then sit on their ass after marriage).
2. You state the obvious when saying that people should figure this stuff out before marriage. Of course they should and bad decisions are made all the time by those who do not want to see the light but that is a topic for another website. try to stay on point. There are plenty of women out there who want to sink their hooks into a man and not work. Frankly, I have trouble respecting a women who does not want to work and be independent.
One more thing….while being a SAHM is a hard job I still think that as a general rule having to leave the house and work is harder. The courts have a habit of awarding the SAHM an equal share of the proceeds in a divorce because she “stayed at home with the children while the husband worked thus making the partnership equal” but the courts fail to see that their logic is based upon one huge false assumption: If you have a SAHM and a husband who works, the courts fail to consider that the husband also contributed to housework and raising the childrens. The court assumes (by rewarding the SAHM half) that the husband worked, came home, and did nothing. Since when can it be assumed that the husband just works and comes home, offering nothing to child-rearing once he is home? Maybe the working spouse should get two thirds of the assets (for working and contributing to the household) upon the divorce while the SAHM gets one-third for staying at home.
I am a big fan of feminism….every time I consider dating a new girl I make sure she has a job and can pay her bills. When in a serious relationship I do everything I can to encourage my girlfriend’s career. My motto: “Do everything you can to be financially independent of me so you can fulfill the requirements of feminism.” I will help with all housework.
A female who is financially independent is sexy, interesting, and fun to be around.
I wish my husband was as supportive of my career as you seem to be. I have worked since I was 14, I put myself through college, and I’ll be damned if I’ll give that up now that I have kids. My husband does everything to discourage me from working, including guilt trips and jabs about how I make less (it’s only slightly less).
i looked for 2 hours before i could find a site to address my concerns. thank God.
every other site was infested with woman commenting in mens forums or stupid questions about do men pleasure themselves…arrrgghhhh. 23 years she hasnt worked. i worked 2 jobs for years…5am to 9pm m-f and 9-5 weekends. quit 1 job and kept long hours on the keeper gig to provide. i am considered a success in my field and paid the price. 2 kids, 22 and 16. i can repair and remodel anything and do it with enthusiasim. not a chore goes undone for long.
“she” “our” money bought an exisiting business in a field she enjoys. i told her the business was misrepresented and the numbers didnt work. “dont take my dream away” was yelled at me. fine, 5 years later it still doesnt produce. matter of fact my income subsidizes her “business”. i was the grinch when i said you know what they call a business that doesnt generate a profit?? A HOBBY! i am ranting here.
she wont help me at my work as she cant work with me. ok, do something, GET A JOB.
i have heard 1) “you make as much as a doctor” (yea, in a good year. i work on commission) 2) “if you make me get a job i will divorce you” goodbye portfolio!
i am at my wits end. my desire for her sexually is deteriorating…my respect is too. i call her names and demean her when we argue. i am bad and self centered if i forget an event or cant make it. i am a bad father with a shallow relationship with my kids. well i guess it would better if i had all f’g day to talk to them. nice house, vacations, cars, savings but i am an ahole. i am controlling and have a hard time delegating. i recognize my personal short comings and coping with them is harder because i feel overwhelmed. on low dose lexpro to smooth out the bumps. dont drink much 1 or 2 drinks a month, dont gamble, dont cheat…golf. and thats only 7 months of the year as midwest winters are long. suggested couseling…no was the answer. well its a bad market, income dropping big time. free ride over??? no not yet..we have some savings we can go through! sorry for the grammar and spelling but i am doing this quickly as I AM AT WORK after a nice morning argument.
Hi, 52&tired. I went through a similar situation with the perpetual “hobby job”, fun for her, which sucked up all her time and energy, and was ALWAYS a money loser that was written off as a loss at tax time, while she accused me constantly of not making enough money.
A warning to you: women like this feel ENTITLED, and when you catch on to their scam, and set some limits, they up and leave.
My first piece of advice would be to prep for a divorce quietly, secure your assets, then cut her off and see what happens.
My second piece advice would be to realize that the loss of portfolio assets, etc. (been there, done that too) is worth it in the long run. You can rebuild, and frankly, these women require so much overhead and create so much stress that you will find out again how little you need to live happily! Your children are old enough to be only minimally affected by any fallout.
My third piece of advice: You are not crazy! What your wife expects and demands is unfair, spoiled, childish, and classic NPD behavior.
She’s not worth it. I’ve lost lots, with less income and younger children than you, and it is STILL worth it! These women are cold monsters, don’t feed her anymore.
Thank you for saying “women like this” instead of insinuating that all women are like that. It’s disheartening to see how many men believe that all women are gold digging banshees.
I know your posts is old, so I hope you’ve woken up by now and left this miserable piece of work. There are plenty of hard working, appreciative women out there, you just have to find one. Good luck!
Hi 52 and tired,
Please leave this horrible woman she is a drain on you as a normal person and doesnt love you. Anyone who loved you properly would want your happiness she is only bothered about her own. Selfish and childish is what that truth is about her. It doesnt take phsycolologist to work that one out. That’e why a lot of women stay in a marriage until they can run off with someone else to support them. Dependent and childish behaviour.
When you’ve left her you can then be stress free and drug free because you will be happy , truly happy.
Take care of yourself you deserve peace you’ve worked hard enough for it she has’nt.
Only you can do this this selfish woman you live with wont.
I felt disturbed enough about the topic to find my way here. I heard lots of valuable info on this subject, I felt like my wife to be was a little selfish when she was expressing her views about being a stay at home wife / mother (we don’t have kids) . I told her that I feel that it’s important to have two incomes in todays society to be able to live a substantial life without cutting corners and ducking bills . I told her also that we have to contribute money to college funds and ira”s with a mortgage and other basic bills & needs . I am not going to kill myself trying to take care of all this by myself.
I feel like in my case that this is a attempt for my wife to become more lazy and self centered. Not to offend anyone but I thought that this was a sight for men to express thereselves about this matter . I hear my fiance point of view on this matter enough and am frankly not intrested I tried to listen with a open mind but noe I feel like this whole ordeal is one big mistake I can do well by myself. I can be happy by myself . I am not going to encourage the lazy wife sex. cause I am a young stud that isn’t about to go into debt because my wife wants to halfway be in charge when she doesn’t want to bring money to the table. She likes lobster and Gucci Louis Vouton . I am about to call the wedding off and save my money for for something that makes sense . I think this isn’t a situation that just happens & we both feel like the cost of day care is high and there are thigs at home that we need her to be there for. I think this mind set has been pre-decided .To void divorce and debt and unhappiness I am going to cut it off before it starts.
Hmmmm….I’m in the middle of a divorce, gender reversal. I was laid off from a well paying marketing job in 2003, my wife is a teacher…makes a good salary. When I was laid off in 2003 was my youngest son was diagnosed with autism at 2 yrs. old, he’s high functioning, mainstreamed in school with an aide and is 9 presently yrs. old. I also have another son who is presently 11 years old. Since I was laid off from a highly competitive industry I chose to switch careers and become a teacher. While my wife worked, I went to school days, nights, studied weekends was the primary caregiver for both my children, including but not limited to therapies for our autistic son, maintained the household, cleaning, inside and out,laundry, car maintenance. That was my job. Knowing my wife wished she were home with our sons I tried to make it as easy as possible for her. Helped her get out the door in the morning, helped her with reports. I wanted to provide my sons, especially our autistic son with an emotional foundation that he would carry with him for the rest of his life. This is my gift to him which you cannot put a price on. I will go to my grave knowing I did the best I did for my sons. What did a get from my wife..divorce papers..resentment, bitterness and anger because she felt I wasn’t carrying my share…
I might add…in doing so I received my teaching certification, presently working at a Hilton Hotel full time for the past two years to help with the bills. My wife can’t get let go of her anger & resentment & it’s destroyed a family…very sad…
Why am I not happy?
I am stressed about money, feeling I am spinning my wheels. I am not making ‘freedom’ progress as I feel I should, and feel I’m at the mercy of everyone else, with little help.
I am pretty bored most of the time, doing little but working, then sitting around at home – I drink more, I guess to escape, to go a little numb. I want to go do things, but feel guilty doing them on my own. I feel that I’m always making my decisions based on whether on not my wife is going to get mad at me or not. Even if I decide to do what I want, I still am weighed down by her ‘disapproval’. I’m harboring more and more anger and resentment over this.
I do not take time to ‘smell the roses’. I’m always in a hurry to get someplace…. Feeling I’m always behind, and going to miss something. Most of my decisions are based on what I think my wife wants me to do. Often, these are in conflict with what I want to do… so I end up doing nothing. I have NEVER cheated on her, but feel that she is constantly wanting to accuse me of this. If I have to work late, or want to stop someplace on the way home… I think she’s ready to accuse me. I do have suspicions about her on this though; maybe she’s guilty and that’s why she accused me so much, or, maybe since everyone of her friends cheated on their husbands, or, maybe since she on several occasions compared me to other men (and I came up short).
I feel very ‘taken advantage of’ in our marriage. My wife has basically retired at age 44. She has worked less than 4 years in our marriage, while I have worked over 22 so far, often having multiple jobs at one time. She makes me feel cheap, and incompetent in my earning ability. She complains I control the money, but she spends what she wants. I’m a great man as long as I give her the money she desires, but immediately I am a piece of sh*t when I say no, we can’t spend the money on something. A sad thing about this is that she doesn’t see her actions as in any way detrimental. The fact that she spent over $12,000 in 10 weeks on ‘stuff’ is the same thing to her as me spending $38 on a fitness club membership. She is the only woman in our families to act like this …. Not working and not really helping out. She cooks rarely, and then mostly unhealthy stuff late at night. We are forced to like it or do it ourselves. She washes my clothes very inconsistently. I feel very sad when guys at work show up with packed lunches and ironed clothes. Wendi will quickly inform me when I am wearing a wrinkled shirt as I walk out the door to go to work, but won’t do anything to have them ready for me.
I am very tired most of the time. I just want to sleep, to hide and do nothing. I don’t want to be asked to ‘provide’ money or muscle to others. I feel burnt out, just barely going.
I lack motivation. I often don’t go work out, or do BJJ due to fatigue (mental or physical). Not to say I’m not doing this at all – I can still get a run in, and go to BJJ once or twice a week, I just don’t want to do anything in the evening any more. I feel I need to save my energy for something else, even though I have little to save, and don’t do anything with it anyway.
I want to surf, but don’t want to spend the time doing it, and really don’t want to go on my own. But, even worse, if I join a group to go with, this means that my wife will both absolutely want nothing to do with the group or surfing, but also will accuse me and make me feel guilty for ‘what I could be doing’, with them. This will be my fault.
I used to do more. I went and walked or ran every night. I hiked in the mountains every weekend. I cooked pretty good food. I lifted weights or did martial arts pretty regularly. I had my clothes ready to go every weekend. My house was clean. I read a lot, had relaxing mornings, and evenings. I was exploring the area I lived, learning Spanish, taking short class things like real estate, walking around museums and stuff, volunteering with SUK. Now, I just pass the day until the next one comes around. Where’s my life??
I realize part of this again comes from my wife’s emotional hold over me. Even though I work hard at a job I don’t really like, and make quite a bit of money from it, I know my activities are all going to be ‘questioned’ by her. ‘Needing to be justified. It seems I have earned nothing, not acting, martial arts, guitar lessons, “and how much did this cost???” Again, me spending 2% of what I earn on things I want to do is the same to her as spending 50% of what I earn on stuff she thinks MUST be done.
So again, why do I feel sad? I’m tired, burnt out, feeling taken advantage of, unappreciated, guilted about everything, I’m overloaded, and feel like I’m on my own. I do not have a partner, only a bill-collector and ‘grader’, letting me know when I pass or fail a task.
She states that we can climb mountains, go hiking, and she threw in a few other things that I like to do that she says we can do together. The funny thing is, we don’t do these. This was a stab …. Another guilt thrown at me when she was talking to our oldest daughter about us not shopping together.
** I don’t like to shop with her. She uses me as the stop-limit, the person who is supposed to say “that’s enough, we’re out of money”, then she can get really mad at me, quit speaking, or say ugly things about how I don’t care about grandkids and stuff. This is a very consistent pattern, why would I want to put myself in this position. Even if we agree about how much money we have prior to going shopping, or we agree on what we are actually going to get, she changes it on me once we get to the store, and calls me an a**hole when I say we can’t do that…
She did fail to mention that we can (and do) go out to eat, go the movies, go travel to visit kid’s in Arizona, a few other things she finds acceptable. I only do not want to go shopping; she makes me feel unimportant and stupid when I have gone in the past.
So, what is the answer? I guess to focus on what I have, which is quite a lot. But, I have no more today than I had last year, so what is the difference? Am I growing, or dying? My relationships don’t feel that good. I’m not as happy or optimistic a person as I’ve been in the past. I don’t like my job much, and constantly think about quitting and moving. I day dream a lot, but it’s always about going back to the past and re-doing my life.
I can’t control anyone but myself. So, how do I get out from under the guilt that my wife gives me? How do become a man? How do I become happy?
Michael,
Leave this “parasite” and become happy!! She sounds like a spoilt child and needs to grow up. Be the adult and leave her and find a nice grown up woman they do exist. Do it now it will change your life forever.
I totally can relate to all of this. I hope that you have left her. This sounds like she is making you feel depressed and is ruining your life. This is very unhealthy and it sounds like she is drowning you. You have fallen out of love with her. you must move on………
Ack! The only time I spent that much money in that short a period of time was when I paid tuition bills in college. And that was money from my savings, before I even met my husband! The thought of wasting that kind of cash makes me a little ill.
the two income trap summery
http://www.mdmproofing.com/iym/reviews/review004.html
Caleb,
I feel so sorry for you. Maybe these people assessing your wife are just as crazy as her!? Can’t possibly say its totally rational to allow children to be left with a mentally instable person like that. Sounds like she needs locking away from everyone for the publics safety? Why arent the authorities doing it? Because a lot of people are very manipulating and people believe them and some find it funny(not in this case I hope). Not all medical professionals are perfect and obviously not in your case. Get out of this marriage quick for your own sanity and leave her to her own life(if people thinks she’s sane enough they obviously do??) and get on with being happy yourself. Hope you get a better life soon you deserve it like everyone else.
Hi finally woken,
At last you are free to meet an independent lady. Forget the parasite you had recently. That’s chilidish and spoilt.
I’ve been independent for 30 + years and recently married for the 2nd time, had an independent single time(no maintenance needed) between marriages and am very happy thanks. I’ve never needed to bawl at and manipulate a man to get what I want I’ve done it for myself. The childish women are the ones who need support and make out that women like me dont exist probably. Sad really.They also stay with a man they dont love until they run off with another man to support them.So my advice is dont get involved with a married women it’ll be what you had before. Lot’s of decent available women out there I was one of them.
Have a nice rest of your life it’ll be much better.
Won’t work won’t clean the house ( it’s filthy and her hobby junk is piled on every available surface including the bed I have to move stuf before I can lay down) only wants to tend the garden and complains about how much work that is. Attends “classes” like flower arranging and the like and goes shopping. Then complains that I never do anything around the house. I work 2 jobs I leave the house at 7:15am and get home at 1 am and still catch hell about where have I been. She has 2 BS degrees in science and a masters in hospital admin. Know how long she has worked in her entire life? 3 months as a bartender during college and she occasionally subs at the local school system in the last 3 months because my 2 paychecks combined can’t support all of her spending habits. She says she hates it and isn’t going to do it any more. What’s wrong with this picture?
Hi Already lost,
Dont think you would lose much if you dumped her tomorrow! She is just a “lazybones”! You are just her “mealticket” and she needs to grow up bigtime! Let her but without you! Soon!!
What do you do when your future spouse says that she wants to work and pretends to find a job and lives with you and finds every excuse not to work. She has to be lazy and doesnt really want to work and is just using you for your money. You need to find a more ambitious type of women who has a goel and purpose in life. What do women think about this situation?
I totally agree! It`s important to learn to stand on your own two feet and be mature-however scary it may be. The feeling of contribution, achievement and success is rewarding. I love working-my salary is small, but i still feel confident and i do my best at work. I also am a student and my husband says i would be better off if i just stay at home and study, but i want to work, it`s a privilege!
One thing that needs to be made very clear is the difference between having one of a couple stay home when the kids are little, but when they get to Junior High School, there are no excuses except what Dr. Tara laid out.
When my wife and I married, we agreed that she would stay home until our youngest was in first grade and then finish her college degree. Our youngest got to first grade and my wife changed her mind. Our youngest is now in high school and I’m fed up.
Here’s some perspective; I’m about to hit my maximum vacation accrual time at work. Why? Because I don’t take vacations since all I’d do is sit around the house because we can’t afford to actually go on reasonably nice trips.
Jason,
I feel really sorry for you. I’ve worked fulltime all my life and supported myself when I was divorced in my 30’s. My husband made derogatory comments that (even though I had always earned much more than him!) over the first years that I had done very well on my own?! I find women who could never be independent such as women who dont have good jobs spread stupid childish rumours I cant cope on my own!? I’ve had my own mortgage/property for 16 years(which these women who comment have NEVER done!) and survived without exhusband maintenance. So you see the problem is difficult. A lot of women say they are independent and can do things on their own BUT big BUT they are totally delusional because women like me make them feel threatened. The conclusion is (sorry for waffling!) women mainly do NOT wnat to be independant it’s TOO hard work and grown up and frightening! I am now remarried and in the throes of us financially coming together over the next year. We’ve been together 4 years and married 18 months. So he’s never been my meal ticket I couldnt have the cheek or lack of respect to do it. Tell her firmly to GET A JOB and FAST because you are not a happy husband. If she truly loves you she will if she doesnt well work that one out and send her to TOYS ARE US for her to buy a toy for herself. Take care and good luck.
Amen sister! I’m only 30, and it’s women like you that I’ve always looked up to and tried to emulate. I’ve worked since I was 14, I put myself through college on my own dime, and I have three kids (two of which are under 4) and I still manage to have a career in publishing and do freelancing on the side.
I have never looked to a man to support me, in fact my first husband made significantly less than me as a dog walker, and he stayed home with our daughter while I worked and went to college. It confounds me that there are still women out there who are happy to sap the life out of a man like this!
I read this article with much interest. I hear about this type of thing all the time, intelligent women who basically give up, let themselves “go” and expect men to do everything for them. Relationships are a two way street and complacency, dependency and laziness soon breed resentment. I would imagine it also leads to feelings of worthlessness in the wives. How can they possibly be happy living like that? The women in these situations have got to sense the resentment their husbands are feeling. Add in other problems… lack of intimacy, controlling behavior, etc and you have a recipe for a miserable marriage. Sometimes I am ashamed of my gender and the message that woman are somehow “owed” a decent living by their husbands, without having to put forth any effort themselves. I am also fully aware men need to put effort into a relationship to encourage their wives to be the best they can be and remind them every day of how much they love them.
I work full time, raised a child, did the household chores, managed all the finances…. my partner of over 25 years will attest to the fact I am energetic and self sufficient. He would not have me any other way and I would never allow myself to become any less than that. Our relationship had it’s ups and downs, our lives have suffered hardship and we are not perfect by any means but I know I put forth the best effort I could to be a partner who contributed to the relationship. Just my two cents.
Hey there. Long time listener, first time caller. Been dealing with these issues for years, your website is great, helps me keep myself on track when I start getting dragged off to crazy town again.
Anyway, the reason for my comment: In my experience, urging your NPD/BPD wife to go back to work is not going to help anything, and may hurt you significantly. My personal experience is that my wife does not regard work as a means to a paycheck to help take care of herself or her family. 52 and tired up there has experienced it. What she wants out of her work is an ego hit and leverage. She will gladly work at a job or business which is a net cost to the family so long as it gives her a facial claim to some prestige and she can use it as an excuse to require this or that behavior of me.
Now everybody has to decide their own limits and what they can live with. I’m a pretty good earner, and financially I have been able to make it work without any support or help from my wife (indeed, generally my success is in spite of her, as she often will threaten to – and has in the past made some attempts at – ruining my business if I don’t do X or Y or Z or whatever it is that she is insisting that I do). I also have a happy facility for routine domestic tasks (though at the manly arts of carpentry, electrical, and general landscaping I am not so good), I’m a pretty good cook, etc. I’m perfectly fine with her being at home and not working, even though I pretty much do all the cooking and housework when I am home (when I’m at work she usually eats out – there’s no way she is going to voluntarily cook her own food on a regular basis), pay for maids to come through once a week to do the heavier housecleaning, etc. The bottom line is that if I push her to go to work, it will just cost me more in the end.Of course the flip side of the coin is that I can’t push her not to work either. Or ask for her to do anything around the house. Basically, I’ve found, is it’s all an extension of the say nothing rule. Nothing you say or do is going to help. She is simply going to be the way she is, and anything you say or do will be used to show how bad you are.
With the way the court system is and the way my wife is I know damn well the only way I get to be a part of my kids’ lives (at least until they are 18) is by sucking it up and making the best of it. So it is what it is. Just my two cents of experience in case anyone here can benefit from it.
Bob,
I’m so glad you took the time to type out one of the most articulate paragraphs I’ve ever read. Saved me the time of explaining the double blade cut of life with her.
And, shocking how closely it parallels my life…. except I’ve not had to bring in the maid yet.
I’ve learned that saying anything is just not worth the trouble.
My kids are 24 (getting married in a month), 21 and going out on his own, and 11…. yes, that was the baby we “needed” because that was the only way she knew how to keep her hooks in me. She actually told me she knows I’m leaving her after the kids are older!!
Like she read my mind!
Every time she did go out and get a job; it lasted only a couple weeks to months. And it cost me more to buy the work clothes than the pay she ever earned.
I too run a business on top of being a professional pilot for 25 years.
Lately I’ve become rather adept at explaining to her…. “that will be the day you run my business again!” She “helped” me in previous years and had us in the ditch so bad it took me too much time to bring it back. Plus, explaining rudimentary accounting items over and over again is a waste of my day.
I’m blessed that it is possible for me to place a set amount into her account and allow her to be “busy” about her day with whatever she wants. It is way cheaper for now and I have unfettered time with my kids to allow them to be who God intended them to be.
According to her I’m a thief, a liar, a control freak, and undependable, plus I cant keep a job.
Since I am being promoted within the company and my role changes while moving into senior management …. she hates it because I am “always changing jobs”
The only thing is … when she says that, she is simply looking in the mirror.
It is Ok to let crazy go on around you… you don’t have to be part of it.
I encourage all of you to above it if you can.
I know there are people here that cannot do it easily since the crazy one is the “breadwinner”
It is you who I have true compassion for. Truly, a rock and a hard place….
Hi Bob,
Feel really sorry for you. Your other half – cant really say that’s true she’s really your other 100th!! No contribution to you whatsoever!! Love is a partnership not a dependancy. She is a child and needs to be treated like one. I’d get out when the children are old enough and get a less exhausting life for yourself and a more responsible human being to share(YES I said SHARE) your life with you. This woman is just TAKE, TAKE and more TAKE.
Good luck.
xx
Before I put my case forward is anyone still watching this thread?
Yes, I think many are. Last comments made less than 4 weeks ago.
This is exactly what is going on in my house….I have spoken to her, reasoned with her and even gotten the ¨I know know what you mean and I will change¨ routine.
We got married 7 years ago and it is affecting our relationship to the point that I almost see her as my 3rd child instead of my wife.
Except that you’re “3rd child,” unlike your actual children, is not likely to “launch.” Sorry to read you’re in this predicament.
Excellent read. I was beginning to think that I’m selfish. My ex wanted to get back with me and I agreed under certain conditions. The most important condition was to get a job and be financially independent. She did this rather quickly (got a job and a car on her own) and once she showed me she could do this – I let her move back in, but she would have to pay 500/month rent and she would have to get ½ the groceries as a show of responsibility. 6 month later she gets laid off. I told her not to worry about rent and groceries until she gets a new job. (Probably #2 big mistake). Now it is 6 months after her layoff and she still has not found a job. I can’t understand it. She has not asked for money to make car payments (yet) so she must have saved a little while she was working. The upsetting thing is – it’s going right back to the reason of our divorce in the first place which is her not being responsible. I can see she is applying for jobs, but I honestly don’t think she is trying hard enough. I know she has declined certain job opportunities, which infuriates me because she could have been working at a “not so perfect” job and still be looking for something better. Hell, I do that everyday! When I bring it up, she doesn’t like the ‘pressure’ I’m putting on her. She wants a baby, (so do I) but I MUST have a woman that can show me they are capable of handling it and I think she can’t handle it. I’m losing my attraction to her even though she is a beautiful woman. It’s like looking at a playboy playmate of the month and saying “nah, not in the mood!” I feel weak because I’ve allowed her back into my life. One would think they’d learn a lesson the first time around. I’m getting ready to have another serious talk with her, but I’m unsure of what to say because logic and reason doesn’t work.
Please do NOT have a baby with this woman YET!! Let her be independant for 2 years to prove to you she is grown up! 2 years isnt long in the larger picture of life is it?Sounds reasonable. DONT slip into the she’s a beautiful woman thing. Take care and be strong. If she doesnt do it she’s not grown up enough to have a baby!! Sad but truthful.
AND RUMAMUKUS you deserve a lovely grown up lady for being so patient!! A lovely grown up lady deserves and can cope with a baby! They are very demanding! Like your partner by the sounds of it! Learn your earlier lesson well and dont cave in. It’ll be worth it!! Wish you lots of luck!!
I have been married for 13 years, with my wife working the whole time as a scientist. But after losing her job due to bad changes in supervision at her workplace, she quit. She kept applying for jobs, and even tried a couple, but at every job she says someone is mean to her or expects too much. On top of all this, her mother died a few months ago after a lengthy battle with cancer. Now she found a job making $37,000 a year, with benefits, and I think she’ll quit after this week because of personnel problems again. I own a heating and air conditioning business, and I stay so busy and stressed doing it. We have also been restoring a Victorian house for 10 years, almost every weekend, and after all that and the debt to go with it, I’m just so tired. I feel like I am going to lose everything I’ve worked for in my thirties on this house,and that I will probably lose nearly all my equity , selling it in a hurry because we will have no money. I don’t know what to do. She keeps talking now about just getting a part time job. I feel like my wife is bailing on me, leaving it up to me alone to finish the plan we started together. And I really feel bad telling her to keep a job because of her mom recently passing. But I’m afraid I’m burning out on this whole mess, and I have told her this many times, especially recently. Am I wrong for feeling this way?
I’m in the same situation. We have a 9 months old little boy and my wife is currently on maternity leave but is now no longer getting any sort of income from her employer as she is 9months into her leave. She is due to go back to work mid July as she had decided she wanted a full 12 months off. Note I said SHE decided she wanted 12 months off – I wasn’t really consulted in the matter.
As I’m the most clued up one when it comes to our finances I did the maths and found that we could afford it but it would mean that I would have to use our savings to support us/her as she pays all the utility bills which comes to approx £400 p/m ($650).
Incidentally – this money I have saved is due to savings I have made on our mortgage. We ended our fixed rate period and switched to a tracker (1.5% above the BoE interest rate) which saved us £200 p/m so I put it all away as I’m sure the Bank of England interest rate will not stay at 0.5% forever so I’m well aware that one day I will need to start reducing how much I save per month to cover the difference. The reason I have told you this is because our savings AREN’T expendable – they have been saved for one purpose only – paying the mortgage but she doesn’t seem to acknowledge this!!!
The other annoying factor here is that she had just had a salary review here and almost doubled her annual income as she had been working for peanuts for years and her management kept ignoring her plea’s for a job review. Luckily she got a good manager just before she left on maternity and HR were horrified when they saw what she was earning and quickly put through her increase. We had been fighting to get this done for the best part of a year and it used a lot of energy and time in writing letters and emails etc…
Now here’s the issue; We have since discovered we are expecting a little girl at the end of July so obviously this will result in a second lot of maternity. I have suggested due to this she should go back to work early so she can save up 3 months wages to support us and make things a little easier. She refuses point blank!
She has also said once she has finished her second lot of maternity she doesn’t want to go back to work at all.
So our household income has halved all of a sudden and on top of all of this she wants to move house as well! Did I tell you she has just bought a car? -she was paying for this but now it’s fallen on me to pay the monthly repayments. And on top of that I bought myself a new family wagon to accommodate 2 kids. Then she lands it on me – I aint going back to work !!!
I don’t need to go into the arguments we have as I’m sure you all understand and have been there before.
I don’t respect her any more which is a real shame as I love her to bits but I need a wife who can support herself and contribute to the household. I wouldn’t mind her being a “housewife” or “stay at home mum” if she did things like clean the house and cook my meals – don’t get me wrong; I wouldn’t expect this if she was working but as she is staying home I don’t feel I should come home and cook both of our meals etc and then do cleaning.
She complains about having to vacuum and clean the bathroom etc as she says she “doesn’t have the time” as looking after the kids is full time. I understand it isn’t easy but you’ve just switched from a job where you support the computers for 3500 people – manage your time for gods sake. Staying at home shouldn’t mean staying in bed until 10am every day – she’s losing 2hrs there straight away where she could do stuff…
What really upsets me is that when I say I’m going to the gym after work she complains at me and tries to deny me that little bit of “selfish time” where I can do something for me and me alone as I’ve been trying to get fit recently. Her not joining in with me at the gym is another post altogether (even though I pay £30 for her membership every month)…
I just feel she has taken the easy way out here claiming “I hate my job” so thats why she isnt’ going back – well guess what – so do I . There’s mornings where I cry thinking of the prospect of spending another day in my office but I just have to get on with it…
Sorry for the rant – and I apologise if I’ve come across as a male chauvinist but I’m not. If we could swap roles and I became a stay at home dad I would make sure I managed my time accordingly and had stuff ready when she got home from work.
Good to see I’m not the only one in this situation. Good luck people – be strong…
As I have said to myself very often, and to my Wife of 20 years on occasion, It’s great to have choices!
We have two young men (17 and 15) and for our entire marraige my Wife has not worked a day after she fgraduated with honors as a science teacher.
Recently she sought the help of a Social Worker for what she described as “coping issues” and shortly after she began going told me that the last 15 years of our marriage have been “Complete S–T!”
I can assure everyone that there has NEVER been physical abuse (on my side) in our relationship, and that the only arguements we have had have been primarily over our mutual resentments concerning the imbalance of power.
For years I was accused of being “too controlling” over money matters, etc. My truth is the only choices I have had are whether to take the local roads or highway to work every day.
One day when the children were young, my Wife broke down in tears when I was walking through the door after a long day and informed me that she was so busy she did not have time to change her sanitary napkin. Although I think it is important for me to generally know what’s going on at home, monitoring one’s personal hygine was stepping WAY over the line. She was tired, I get it, but projecting blame that I was somehow responsible for missing a few bathroom breaks was stunning.
My oldest is a Sr in High School but instead of dusting off her resume, she has taken up animal rescue in a BIG WAY. It takes up a good % of her day and almost all her weekends. Cell phone calls during dinner. Text messages while driving. Epoch e-mail’s…..When I commented on her obsession, she told me that this was her “hobby” and that I should get my own….???? Isn’t a “hobby” one does when one is not WORKING?
Anyway, we have been looking into private schoold for the boys, and thinking about upcoming college. She want’s the best, but when I asked her what she intended to do to make all that happen she responded as if it were a multiple choice question; “Get a job?”
It’s hopeless, but I do love her so much. I have devloped my own coping skills. I accept reality she will never work and will continue to delude herself she is needed home 24/7. It’s cheaper then a divorce. Remember. If you are married over 10 years and your wife never worked, she gets alimony for life and half of everything.
Chris,
What a difficult situation. If you dont really put a handle on your obviously selfish partner you by the looks of it are going to have very little respect and eventually little love for you partner. She doesnt care about your physical or mental health by the sounds of it! You are her key to never working ever again . Getting pregnant again is a symptom that she cant act as a responsible adult who can discuss important issues with her partner which affect him both financially and emotionally. Deluded also that what she is doing has nothing to do with her financially contributing as an adult should.
I sympathise with you entirely but unfortunateley lots of women act like this manipulating a situation they cant rationally discuss.Not being adult again. Proof also was her not getting paid what she deserved. Couldnt negotiate that either.
You should have your free gym time and if she says anything just say she has chosen her life for herself , given up work and comment that if she did work more money for her own hobbies/etc would be available. She cant have her cake and eat it. She wanted 2 babies in quick succession when it wasnt affordable so she should “lie in her chosen bed”. Thats what she wanted and she shouldnt complain should she?? OR go to work and earn money to contribute. Take care and be strong.
Chris,
Also please do not pay for her own car.Then if she says it’s difficult to get around with 2 young kids otherwise say she should’ve thought about that when she conceived a 2nd baby so soon(obviously after having one she knew what to do to conceive one??!) I know it sounds cruel but if she doesn’t see it then you will carry on being put on. She has to learn like a spoilt child when enough is enough.Very hard as now 2 kids are involved but you will hate and resent her eventually if you don’t do anything soon.
Very best of luck.
Hi Steve,
Sorry about your situation but I sympathise with your wife at this time especially with her mum passing away after a long battle with cancer. A lot to cope with and holding down a job. Especially as most women are the people who support parents at this time. Bear with it at least she is willing to work part time as some women arent willing to work AT ALL (see the pathetic women on this site!!). You are lucky to some extent. Do you have children? If not you’ve had a working wife for a long time. Luckier than most men.Hope your business sees the light at the end of the tunnel!
Hi Chris(again),
Ask your wife how a single mother copes with housework?? Maybe she’ll realise she’s got a nice hubby!! Take care again.
Oh and now it’s my fault I don’t get to see them on a Thursday as I’ve decided to go to college and get a management certification – obviously all for my own selfish gains !!!
Reading the posts on this website, I am appalled at the stories I read.
I am all for SAHM mothers, as I believe it is in the best interests of children and families to have one parent at home, and women seem best fitted by nature to take that role, not that SOME men can be good homemakers, I speak of what is “generally” true.
I have no use for men who expect their wives to farm out the children to paid caretakers, work full time AND take the bulk of responsibility of the house and children,after work, and all that entails.
However,it seems, from what I have observed, women today,do not want to make the sacrifices necessary, when one makes that choice. As a SAHM woman for 25 years, I did all household and most of the yard work, shopping,I handle the finances and cared for our two disabled children while homeschooling my daughter through seventh grade,and fostered teenagers to give back and supplement my husband’s earnings. I did not spend my time at the mall or at the beauty salon spending money we did not have, and we bought a house that was within our means. Vacations were few and far between.
A man with a SAH wife should not becoming home from work and cooking and doing housework..he and His wife should be able to enjoy FAMILY time,recreation etc, because all their after work hours are not spent doing household chores.
Women, staying at home does not mean you get to be a spend thrift, pampered princess. Men, maybe you should pay a little more attention to a woman’s character and integrity, and less to her physical attributes, when choosing a wife. “Hot” well manicured party girls dont make good life partners.
TO KATE:
Often times circumstances and necessity require a women to produce income. However for many women, no matter the consequeces of a single breadwinner, they insist on staying home. Just as the article details.
Most men, assuming ideal financial circumstances, want their wives to stay home. However in todays dismal global recession, this is becomimg less and less prudent.
Kate,
You are not normal. Most gals gradually do less and less until they are unable to cook and fam goes out to eat a lot, eventually need a maid, and even shoot down the kids to make themselves feel better.
I guess with the society we live in, this will be more and more common. I often think of quitting to and trying to get on some welfare type program as there is happy ending to where we are headed financially.
Cheers,
God bless you.
Chris,
Yet again you are doing it to better yourself for your family. If she cant cope with 2 young kids why did she have them? How do doctors get on who work long shifts with children? Do their spouses blame them for being dedicated at their job? Do not listen and let it go over your head. If she’s bored on her own it’s her own fault. If she worked and earned money you would have time to see your kids and wouldnt have to spend time bettering yourself to earn more money she isnt prepared to!!! If you worked longer hours you would earn the MONEY she craves and would see the kids even less. She is totally selfish and irrational if you (the BREADWINNER) cannot have time out and chill. Only fair – you bring in the money – you call the shots.You are fighting a losing battle it you dont just let the whole moaning scenario of your wife GO OVER YOUR HEAD. Just ignore her comments she’ll soon shutup. Take care.
Hi Chris,
The stuff written by Dr Tara on this website is very useful. The article “Why your wife’s excuses for not working are lame” is good and your wife fits into the 1st category. All the things she does fits exactly into this. Hopefully longterm she will change but I think she doesnt want to work and you are her reason not to I’m afraid. Keep your own time to chill, ignore her moanings it’s all part of her not wanting to work, etc syndrome I’m afraid. She’s got her kids and not working thing you have your thing you deserve it!! Do NOT do everything aswell around the house. That’s HER job.Take care.
Hi Kate,
Dont know how I stumbled on this website but I feel like you. I’ve always been an independant lady (not had any kids sadly) and I feel so sad for all the men on this site who are at their wits end with extremely selfish women who don’t know they are born!! How these nice men got involved with these women (your descriptions are extremely apt!!!) god knows. Can’t believe these women will say they love these men. They have little respect for them never mind love! I hope we can blame it on media pressure but perhaps these men have been very unlucky with their love choices. Hope these men do read Dr Tara’s advice on this website and sort their childish selfish wives out sooner rather than later. It’s heartwrenching reading these men pour their heart out !! Take care Kate .
TomG,
Lots of women juggle part time work with home. At least she’s had a so-called education . Not that it’s been much use. She is not a good example for her boys really. 15 years at home gives her a twisted view on life because she’s never been in the true outside world. If your marriage has been totally S**T for her why hasn’t she left?? Because she couldn’t cope being a grown up adult fending for herself. Unfortunately you are living with a typical woman who has never had a need to truly grow up (whether or not she has brought up children). It will take a very concentrated discussion to explain to her that you don’t mind her animal rescue HOBBY as long as she gets a job and balances it with that. If she doesn’t agree I think it’s a reasonable thing to say that you cannot afford private education for the kids unless she works and leave the ball in her court. If you get tantrums and aggro then the question about her character is very obvious. I personally think she needs to grow up and take responsibility for her actions regarding contributions to the household financially as a proper grown up adult.
Good luck!!
Thanks
Most of the posts echo alot of what I have felt and experienced FOR YEARS. Am I perfect? Hell no. My Wife is a very good Mother and Wife, but years of this resentment have taken its toll on me. Sounds like alot of Opera Winfry victom speak, but the reality is our boys are looking at college and one son unfortunatly has gotten himself into some trouble which may require a VERY expensive intervention to the tune of $100,000+ in addition to a very expensive private school for our yongest son. She is doing all the so called research and somewhat complaining i have not done equally as much, but at no point is she ready to commit to making this happen financially. ZERO interest, and when I get my back up and express my feelings, I almost always end up feeling like the guy with the big shoes and red nose. In that sense I do feel like a victom.
Since my oldest has gotten in trouble, I sense his issues have transferred into yet another reason/excuse to stay home.
In the meantime, animal rescue continues as a high priority in our house. As an aside, I have a medical issue that brought me to a very good teaching hospital in the Philadelphia area. When I met with the managing director of the epilepsy program, my Wife accompanied me into the examination room. As this Doctor began going over his findings and test results, her cell phone rang and SHE TOOK THE CALL. it was an animal rescue call. The look on that Doctor’s face haunts me to this day. I consulted with an Attorney several months later, but lost my nerve in favor of marraige counseling. PS: We never went to marriage counseling.
So, the beat goes on.
thanks
TomG,
Oh dear.
You seem to be the person who has to soldier on whatever. Your health issues matter very little to your wife unless it affects her financial support. You don’t have a marriage partnership at all. You go out to work all day bringing in the money and have little time for hobbies, she on the other hand has as much time as a job for her hobby. UNFAIR. Read the “Golden uterus complex ” on this website and you will giggle aswell as think that’s my wife?! Her being a mother gives her the power in your relationship so it has never been imbalanced at all!! She’s had the choice not to work. That’s ultimate power you don’t have. Yes you are the victim. Your choice is whether you put up with it or do something about it. You say you love her BUT does she really love you. People who love you will support you in EVERY way. Think about it.
Good luck.
Thanks for the support. BINGO! I have said this ad nausium for many years to the point where I hate the sound of my own voice.
Frankly this post could not accomodate how I truly feel and why. I do strongly suspect my Wife’s “Therapist” is deconstructing our relationship, hence the genesis of the 15 years of total S–T comment. Her therapist is also our former marraige counselor years ago so I feel my privacy has also been violated.(another twisted story I’m trying not to take too personally. In other words. Who cares?)
Strangly this site has given me some hope in the sense that I can eliminate feeling all alone and that something must be wrong in my thinking.
The newest twist is when I speak my truth and express my value to out family as the bread winner, she responds most of the time by saying I’m needy, or feel the whole world is against me. Sounds like more psyco babble to me.
Another story that happened years ago in marraige counseling. At the time my Wife was helping out her sister who has three small children while her sister worked more or less full time. (hint hint) This was for the whole summer and I knew darn well it was giving my youngest son short shrift in her decision to home school him. I mentioned this in marraige counseling and she literally reached over, grabbed my leg and shouted for me to shut up.
The only thing she shared with me a few years later when she went into therapy was she was learning “coping skills.”
Maybe its me, but that infuriated me to no end. I’m totally fed up and feeling out of control and she needs to cope?
Most of the drugs one can take for anxiety do not mix with the seizure medication i am taking, so I found out the hard way. They cause seizures. So I joined a gym. I shed 30 pounds and feel great. A few months ago she family suggested the three or four days a week I spent my two hours working out were “an escape.” My spirit was broken.
My wife is obsessed with animal rescue (we had no less than 20 cats at my house at one point) and I’m escaping!? Your darn right! And furthermore what better way to escape work than to fill all that time with foolishness.
The corker though was a an Aunt of hers that told me my Wife did not trust me because I was “not truly present for my boys.”
I could go on and on but it only feeds into my frustration, resentment and anger. I read somewhere that resentment is like taking poison and hoping the other person would die.
That’s where I am, but I’m stuck still hoping something will change.
TomG,
It’s like unravelling something. I don’t personally think you have a happy marriage at all. You are the person who brings the money in – that’s it. Your wife’s total life is one long hobby. Where’s your happiness? Is your wife bothered whether you are happy? Doesn’t sound like it. She’s constantly blowing a “smoke screen” over all her inadequacies and faults and lack of any marital support for you. It’s you that needs to change because she will NEVER change. She is like a small child with a hobby before that child has to grow up and earn a living. Changing your life MAY mean splitting from her but if that improves your mental health (it’s suffering as you’ve commented) will aswell. Resentment is eating you away at present. She has a cushy life which she won’t adjust for you or anyone. UNLESS she ultimately has to.Only YOU can change this situation whether it’s a tough decision or not.Your wife has developed a way in which she has the POWER (yes she) to have an easy life or not by not working.
Good luck with your decision and life changes!!
Exactly, your wife has no incentive to change. She’s like a teenager who refuses to clean her room and you’re the parent nagging her to do so. She will have no impetus to change unless her current circumstances become uncomfortable for her, which means you’ll have to stay on her, which means she’ll continue to lash out at you. On the other hand, her idyll of permanent vaca will become a lot less fun for her. Of course, if you turn the heat up on her by not dropping the subject of getting a job, she may accuse you of being abusive, because, don’tcha know it’s “abusive” to ask an adult to support herself, and end the relationship herself over this.
Thanks
Oh yeah. Verbal abuse…..Wish I had all those nickels.
At one point even a friend of hers I met once said I was “controlling.” I actually laughed to myself on that. I have ZERO control and ZERO choices. Strike that. I can leave.
She also told my own Mother that it was either my way or the highway. The only highway I see is my commute to and from work EVERYDAY.
I once asked her to kick in to pay for an appliance that suddenly died (Yes, she keeps her own bank account)
She told me without even a blink: “That’s my money.” I just smiled wide and walked away. No question she understood how hypocritical and hurtful that was. A child with her own little piggybank hidden under the bed. How charming.
The bills get paid and life goes no, but there are little moments like this that add up to many years of resentment.
I said in my previous post that I had consulted with an Attorney at one point. The reality is as painful as a divorce might be, a woman in her position will be forced to work. Divorce is no longer like winning Powerball. Especially if you have the capacity and educational credentials.
There is no doubt in my mind that the good doctor is right on the money with her initial article. I believe under even the best of financial circumstances it is beneficial for the spouse to at least work a part time job. The benefits to the relationship, children and individuals are well ouitlined in the article and I do not think a reasonable person could disagree. It just so happens, in the times we live, the vast majority of families with stay at home Moms are suffering financially. I can raise my hand as being included.
My wife never went back to work after our first son was born 7 years ago. We have since had another child 4 years ago. As an entrepeneur I have been suffering ever since and now worse than ever. In addition to the loss of her income, we have gone without health insurance since. I have had to embrace the fact that she stays home to avoid resentment however the toll it takes on me personally has been/is heavy.
We just got into an argument last night about our “landscaping”. She is furious and “embarassed” that our landscaping is not as nice as the neighbors. I told her straight away that we are not in any position to concern ourselves with the landscaping and I am trying to figure out how to keep the electricity on and make the next house payment.
There are a number of benefits to a women working and the biggest one is to keep the family afloat. I believe that everyone within a family MUST do their part or you quite bluntly you have a “losing team”.
TomG,
Unbelievable! She has her own bank account?! Where does she get that money from? Does she earn it? I’m now thinking you are a total mug. How can you let this child of a woman rule your life? You wouldn’t allow your kids to would you??? I’m even more convinced your wife will NEVER change it you that needs to change.You need to divorce her before you go off your rocker and keep sending these pathetic messages about how she’s leading a childish life and ruining your health and doesn’t give a hoot about how happy or unhappy you are.
Please send another message on this site on how YOU are going to change the situation not what has gone on! Things need to change now .
Let us know on this site what you intend to DO not what has happened . All the people who read this site want you to sort this not tell us waht an OGRE your wife is.
So in your next message tell us what you are doing about it positively or what you intend to do to improve it and we’ll all be happy!!
Wayne,
Unfortunately you have got a wife like TomG(see his meassages) and it will map out like that. If she’s not up to date with your financial circumstances you should make her aware. She is adult enough to have 2 kids.Then if she’s adult enough she won’t go on “bleeting” about trivia like landscaping. A few women like to brag about what theyv’e got to other women because they are stuck at home in their “cocoons” and home is their total world.if she’s totally delusional you’ll end up with a wife like TomG unfortunately. Sorry ! Some women end up like that .
Good luck with your adult conversataion although cant see it being one about the money situation.
Hope all are ok who have sent messages recently.
This is a rant I wrote a s a way to maintain my sanity during a difficult break-up, Hopefully it will be food for thought amongst all of the pain I see on this site.
“No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.”
I don’t know what it is that won’t allow me to wrap my head around the idea of spousal support. I recall our marriage counselor stating that marriage when viewed through the eyes of the law is seen essentially as a business partnership. Partnership to me means an equal share as it relates to all aspects of the relationship. I have a business partner and our relationship is based on this principal. We both contribute to the business in our own unique ways. I spend most of my time in the office handling everything related to the administrative end of the business and he handles everything related to customer service, trouble shooting, training … a lot of hands on stuff. We come together to make the really important decisions. In this way our business relationship is very much like a marriage.
How does all of this relate to spousal support? Suppose I start to feel things are not good between us, maybe I’m only coming to the office once a week instead of every day, maybe I’m tired of the work, or “not into” the business anymore. My partner through his dedication to this business, sticks things out, maybe he’s hoping it’s just something I’m going through, maybe he sees the value in what I did and knows it would be more difficult to replace me than to hang on a while and see if my attitude and work ethic changes. So he picks up my slack, carries more of the load …and this goes on for a number of years until he finally decides to end our business relationship. Legally he is entitled to half of what we built together, no argument there, however, wouldn’t it make sense for him to be compensated for having to make up for the services I failed to provide over those number of years where I wasn’t holding up my end of the deal? After all this IS an equal partnership.
Would it make sense for me to argue that by me remaining in the office doing “less than meaningful” work, that somehow I had sacrificed my ability to grow and possibly reach my full potential? Meanwhile he was out in the field enhancing his knowledge and skills so that in his next venture his earning potential will be greater. Even if it growth and potential were the last thing on my mind, legally I could really make that argument.( luckily not as a partner in a business)
I don’t claim to know the law as it pertains to this situation, nor as it pertains to spousal support. All I know is how I view a situation such as this from a moral and ethical standpoint. This may well be why I can’t wrap my head around spousal support and the way the laws governing it are skewed.
How does this apply to this marital break up and the dilemma surrounding spousal support? According to the law there is no point in discovering the nature of the relationship. The financial goal is to equalize. The idea of equalization appeals to me but, there’s a flaw in the system… or at least the way I see it there is.
I wonder if this only makes sense to me. When we had a child we mutually agreed it would benefit the child for one of us to stay home and raise her. In my mind we both were making sacrifices for the greater good of our child as well as our relationship .My spouse gave up working outside the home and I had to work harder to make things jive financially. I had not only to make up for less income from her, but the added expense that comes with raising a child. Family law only recognizes that my spouse gave up her ability to earn income, but not the work I put in to make up for that.
Does the fact that my spouse never had to concern herself with our financial well- being figure into the equation? Does the law consider the responsibilities placed on myself; does it factor in 80+ hour work weeks, climbing ladders in the heat and bitter cold? Nope the law only recognizes what I took away from her, the ability for her to establish and advance her career. Does the law take into consideration the biggest sacrifice made during this period, that I missed out on being with my daughter. Twice during the earlier years of our marriage I was off work and home through injuries. I treasured the time I was able to be more in my daughter’s life, walking her to school, tagging along on school trips, being able to see her interact with her friends on a daily basis, and simply having the time to relate with her. It made me see exactly what I was missing and more than that, it made me feel less a part of my daughter’s life than my spouse had become. Some sacrifices are beyond the scope of compensation; does this mean they should never be mentioned?
My mistake … moral and ethical stuff doesn’t apply here when it comes to separation agreements and spousal support.
I wonder if the law has a concern about my spouse’s attitude toward contributing to the family income once our daughter was of an age where it was acceptable to rejoin the workforce without affecting my daughter in an adverse way. That when asked about this she responded by saying that part time was as much as she was prepared to do. I should add that at the time I asked her to contribute more I was flat on my back after a fall at work, and in the midst of a financial freefall. Let’s overstate the obvious here: It was at this point where I felt that our marriage was in deep trouble, for if we were truly partners and committed to supporting each other …this was an act of … defiance? Indifference? I can’t even find the words. When I needed her most her actions told me in no uncertain terms that I absolutely could not count on her. Period.
None of this is considered when deciding spousal support.
So just what goes into deciding the amount of spousal support?
The difference in income levels has to be equalized, using a simple formula based on that and the length of the marriage, and somewhere in all of that the law seeks to compensate the person who had sacrificed their earning potential over the course of the marriage. Or in other words pay for what you take away from the partnership, in my case I’m taking away my ability to earn income while leaving her without that ability. So if this was a fair and equal partnership, and for the sake or argument, we decided it was best for her to stay home and give up a career… then what exactly did she contribute? When asked she could list a hundred different things that she did, all of the work that comes with keeping a home and family going… everything she did had value: shopping, and cleaning and taxi service and laundry, running errands … all of this is invaluable to our family.
So, when I leave, I take away the financial stability, which I must compensate her for. She takes away everything which, by her own admission, was every bit as important to our relationship.
There is no law that allows for compensation regarding what can only be described as “invaluable” domestic responsibilities.
Because of the length of our marriage I have been told that the law could deem that I pay spousal support for an indefinite period, I’m still uncertain what the implications of “indefinite “ are, but it’s a frightening thing to think I may have to get up each day and head off to work knowing that almost half of what I earn will be given away to someone who has neither the intention or drive to become more self sufficient. Yes, in fact she has told me in no uncertain terms that the idea of improving her ability to be more self sufficient is not something she is prepared to do… in fact the mere suggestion caused her to become angry beyond reason.
Make no mistake, it is this response… the notion that she is somehow entitled to live out the rest of her life in leisure without any inclination toward self improvement … while I foot the bill, that can turn what should be a relatively simply settlement into a bitter anger fuelled battle, played out in front of everyone who would care to listen.
One simple shift in attitude would alleviate all of this. I am more than willing, I completely understanding of the requirement for me to compensate my spouse ( and in the process adjust my lifestyle) while she works at regaining her ability to be self-sufficient. No problem there at all. In our case I have offered her 10 years of support while withdrawing my right to haul her back into court to review what she has done to improve her situation. Ten years of not having to worry about rent. Ten years to discover what it is that she is passionate about, seek the appropriate training, and then find work in that field.
This is not about winning or losing, but finding a way for us to get on with our lives, in a manner that is fair to both parties.
10 years of spousal support is over generous. Unemployment benefits run out in 6 to 18 months. That’s what the government gives a person to get back on their feet. Why should ex-husbands be expected to do more?
10 years just gives her more time to set the precent of not working and the very not empowered/not responsible myth that she can’t support herself.
Never understood how feminists can defend unlimited, indefinite spousal support/alimony. If women and men are equal and women “don’t need men to take care of them” what the hell is spousal support? In many cases, it’s an allowance for little girls who don’t want to grow up. Spousal support is the government saying women aren’t capable of taking care of themselves or supporting themselves. Why aren’t feminists and women outraged by this?
Equality requires responsibility. That’s something many women just don’t understand.
“If women and men are equal and women “don’t need men to take care of them” what the hell is spousal support? ”
Punishment. Doc, you need to pay more attention to your own stuff….
Those were rhetorical questions, Mellaril.
It’s punishment for sure. It’s also so the State doesn’t have to support these grown children. Then again, if the State doesn’t support adults who willfully choose not to work and contribute and exes aren’t forced to do so, it stands to reason these women would have no other choice but to get some gainful employment and, you know, be adults.
“Reality…what a Concept” – Robin Williams
No doubt!
I totally and 100% agree with you. As a proud feminist, I have always seen alimony as an affront to women in general. Spousal support had its time and place in past generations, but nowadays women have countless opportunities and no excuse not to get off their lazy asses and work!
By the way, many feminists ARE outraged by this. I certainly am. The ones who support this antiquated idea aren’t very good feminists in my book.
A very very close freind of mine has been married for over 20 years. It came to his attention that his wife is having an affair with his first cousin who he is very close to. While on a family cruise his cousin’s own wife shared very salaciuos love letters she left around their house for him while he was in their house dog sitting. They were not worthy of a 4th grader.
His wife works and does pretty well, but their only real asset is the home.
Keeping with the various woman’s mags and how too books on how to beat your husband in a divorce, she undertook step one and had him removed from the house under a restraning order. It was 100% nonsense. Example (I swear this is true). She wrote that in 1993 she made a joke about him in front of a whole group of people at Thanksgiving dinner. (She admitted making fun of him!) He in return did the right thing and rather than play tit for tat, he removed himself from the table.
So: a) She admitted making a bad joke about him, and b: Suggested he abused her by leaving the table. In other words she was embarrased when he wouldn’t sit still and take the verbal blows.
Anyway, she wrote nearly 7 pages of things like this resulting in the police removing him from his house in 20 minutes. If anyone read the thing closely law enforcement would have either had HER arrested or committed. She is a classic narsasist.
In the process, he was layed off from his long time company when it filed for bankruptcy. He is collecting unemployment and she has now garnished his $2,600/ month payments leaving him with less than $300/ month to live on while she stays in the house “entertaining” his first cousin.
Justice? Equal right? My foot!
Under state law he will have to pay her for the rest of his life + take 50% of everything. In other words, she is rewarded for being immoral, liar and cheater.
That’s obscene, Tom G, but typical of how the system rewards these overgrown, entitled children.
I agree with every man on these recent posts. A lot of women are overgrown children who hate the thought of ever being alone in supporting themselves. I too dont understand why the courts dont expect women to support themselves long before they do. 10 years is too long to support someone. 5 years is more than enough because training for a worthwhile career can be done in this time. Cant believe what sad stories I hear on this site. I’ve always been able to support myself even though I’m now married again for the 2nd time after totally financially supporting myself (mortgage and all!) for 16 years. Good luck to you all and I sympathise and maybe some day the courts will see sense. Hope so for all you hard working men out there(women dont apppreciate you).
Dr. Tara: thank you
I just found this site today after wondering about this problem for years.
Its amazing how much similarity I see my own situation as many of the posters here.
Just for the cathartic reasons of letting this out, I need to share my story since I can’t with my wife or friends or family.
The wife and I have been married for over 15 years, no kids, in general we are happy, but she has consistently not been employed.
Earlier in our marriage her unemployment was a huge financial burden. I was in graduate school and money was really tight. Any additional money would have been a big help, but she never got around to getting a job, so I was the sole bread winner for the two of us. Money then was a topic that we couldn’t discuss, it just led to arguments.
Flash forward a few years, and a few jobs and promotions later and there isn’t a financial reason for her to work outside the home, other than that I consider she should be capable of being financially independent. We still can’t discuss her employment or lack of employment since it just leads to her being silent.
How can a capable woman with a college degree in math, and an aptitude in science, statistics and numbers be satisfied with role that I have forced her into, which is making dinner, cleaning the house and doing the laundry?
I say forced, since I used to help in these areas, while working at my job that made all the money, but over the years I stopped, one at a time, saying that if you don’t have a job to go to all day, things that take 1 hour a day, at most, should be your contribution to the family.
I have tried to hire a maid to take away the excuse of being needed for these roles, I have hired a gardener so that other domestic roles are also not used as an excuse.
In short, I know that I too am part of this and am not free from any of the blame, but I don’t want to feel like we have divided our roles, I want an equal partner. I’ll be glad to make dinner after a hard day, sort socks or vacuum, but I resent coming home to any of these if I went to earn a paycheck all day and my wife got to spend 10 hours reading some fiction, playing in the garden, catching up on tennis or the dozen of other things that seem to occupy her time not earning a paycheck.
Financially its not as important, we do okay on my income, but who would ever complain about having a little more? My goals for her income are pretty simple. 1) Fully fund a 401k account, so the first $15k goes there. 2) pay half of the fixed bills, mortgage, property taxes, utilities all that stuff that she uses half of. Before taxes I want her to find a $40k/yr job, and in the Bay Area this shouldn’t be hard. We’d use the extra $, pad up the emergency funds; go on some nice vacations, skiiing, europe, hawaii; donate to charity; heck pay off the house would be a fine goal. Also, in these uncertain financial times, I would feel much more secure if there was a little more redundancy in the income department.
I have tried explaining these feelings, and have done this several times over the years; but there is not measurable action on her part. I hear things about jobs being applied for, or things that she has seen and is inquiring about. However, all I can tell is that she doesn’t have a job. I’ve asked her about taking on something that isn’t perfect, but at least it pays, and she can keep looking for the perfect job. Again, we might talk about that, but there is nothing that looks like a paycheck to show for the talk.
Up until now we have had joint finances. Joint checking, joint savings and I get my payroll directly deposited. We have a monthly talk about money and we track our finances pretty closely, in fact that was another job I assigned to her, since I thought seeing where the money outflow went might further inspire her to help bring some inflow.
I hate needing to take the step to treating her as a financial dependent, but I will divert my take home to a personal account that she has no access to, then as needed provide an allowance into the joint accounts. Also, she wants to go on a vacation coming up in a few months, and I told her months ago that we could go if she paid for it.
I know that I live in a community property state, so even if the account is only in my name that the contents belong to the both of us, but this isnt about hiding assets. I just cringe at walking into a dinner party and introducing my wife to either stay at home mom’s or career women that she stays at home, but isn’t raising a 3 year old. The last few year’s IRS filings she has listed her occupation as “homemaker”, I think it should be “unemployed”.
We tried a little therapy for this a few years back, at my request. Nothing came of it, in the sense that we got to talk about our feelings in other areas, but results are still no paycheck.
What else can I do that helps inspire my partner to be an equal financial contributor to this relationship?
Sorry to hear you are in this situation. Almost exactly like my story. I tried almost all these things as well. The only thing that works is threatening divorce. And in my opinion if you have to threaten divorce to get her to do her part then it is already over. If she is like my stbx then she will never give in on her own. There is no love from her, only desire to be “taken care of” and control me in every way possible. Stbx loves me like a tick loves a dog.
Over the years when the water has gone over my nose I have dropped the D word. The problem with that is as follows: Threats just don’t work without action. I actually filled out the forms and made out the check for the retainer, but chickened out in favor of resuming marraige counseling (counseling did not happen. This alone is a very long strange story).
Empty threats empowers them to play the complete professional victim. They get to justify why their lives are so bad and in my case rises to the level of her not “trusting ” me.
So, on top of measuring my head to the oven door, I have to try to put that genie back in the bottle and try even harder to be a good trustworthy husband.
Visualize the scene in Planet of the Apes when Charlton Heston is blasted with a firehose: It is truly my “Mad House.”
I know what you mean Tom. I never once brought up divorce until I was sure that is what I wanted. Although I had heard it from her countless times to get me to do what she wanted me to do. And yes, I am the now the bad guy around my community for wanting out. I thought I could make it until the kids were out of school but I just couldn’t. I got tired of feeling like her personal walking ATM. I will be starting again with almost nothing but my freedom and experience to know to stay away from PD women. For me this is worth it. If it were not for this site I would probably live the rest of my life as an unhappy slave to stbx. Good luck on sticking it out.
Hi All
Just Some Guy’s wife must know mine. My wife’s “passion” is animal rescue. Our former marriage counselor (now her individual counselor????) mentioned pursuing “a passion” as a way of keeping one’s idenity. Naturally those suggestions were not for my consumption unless a 2 1/2 hour commute each day to go to WORK, funding OUR retirement, pizza boxes, numerous checks for her personal head doctor visits to discuss how bad her life is, bad toilet training, or the burdons of whether to buy wet or dry cat food, gas for the SUV to pick up stray animals, on and on and on.
On a sad note my oldest son has gotten involved in drugs, failed out of high school and on a small scale started dealing from our basement window to fund his habit and postpone/derail his entrance into the world of “WORK.” The answer? A comprehensive wilderness therapy program and a private theraputic boarding school to the tune of over $150,000 for 12 months. In addition, SHE has enrolled my younger son in a private school.The children’s wealfare is what it is, but the thought of her doubling down on animal rescue, gardening, and reading the latest issue of O magazine to support her “Living a better life” is killing me.
So….the topic of work resurfaces. If stonewalling were an Olympic event, she’d have 5 gold metals. She has learned over the years to just stand still and say NOTHING which both never ceases to amaze and ingnite me.
I actually mentioned last night as I was cutting a very large check for this school that she should liquidate part of a significant inheritence she has to contribute to these programs. OH WELL! You might have thought I was asking her for sex…..I visualized the crank and mouthed her mantra ‘It’s not as if I won’t get a job.” When that check i wrote clears all bets are off. Same old same old. It’s follow me to the bottom….
Just Some Guy is in the canoe like us with no paddle.
The depressing part are divorce laws favoring woman. It is math. I fund all these schools, pay the bills, support animal rescue without even a tax deduction, and then ponder giving her half or more of everything including the retirement accounts, leaving me to move into a one bedroom apartment and take the hits for being a quitter in our relationship.
Not that I am an adovate or particpant in infidelity, but I certainly would never judge anyone in my shoes who does. Happiness is not overrated.
Tom G and Sucker No More
I appreciate the feedback and insights.
Maybe I’m not to the point of threatening divorce, or maybe I’m just naive to that inevitable outcome. Threats I don’t do, but if that switch is flipped, then: Houston we have a problem.
Tom G: Funny, the animal rescue rings so true here too. Sorry about the problems with the kids, at least we don’t have that over our heads.
I’m just at an end for how I should interact with who is otherwise a smart, sexy, good woman, who appears to have no desire to successfully attain gainful employment. Is it just that my DNA wires me to be the guy and not having a job isn’t an option? Man kills mammoth-brings meat to cave-woman squirts out a few pups-makes cave warm and tidy? Is that all it is?
The job is fine and all, but given the option of not going and everything stays the same financially, I’d grab that in a second. I just resent the fact that I’m going to work for another 20 years or whenever, and then perhaps retire (in this economy, we never know, probably will work until we die is the new retirement plan). While the dear wife appears to have won the lottery and gets to sit at home all day doing whatever her heart desires.
I’m seriously looking for what else I can do to make sure that this pattern does not continue, since in my experience it has and it will. None of the talking appears to have made any difference.
Hand her a bill every month for half of our expenses? Go on a vacation without her? Sell her car on Craigslist? Cancel her car insurance? What makes it clear that not having a job that supports your life’s expenses is not reality and she is living some fictional princess’ life?
I’m still trying to be an adult and keep this above a series of petty and vindictive actions, like the examples above are, but the fact that I’m thinking about these things makes even me wonder what the next steps look like. Send her a long weekend to see her relatives and change the door locks and passwords to all the financials, cancel the credit cards?
I feel like that’s taking way too many steps down the road to crazyville.
Divorce, if that is the final outcome, would probably make me crazy anyway if I had to pay spousal support for any significant time period. I cannot imagine how I’d feel to be told by the court to allow an ex to continue to be a codependent child on my paycheck.
Was it Grouch who said that paying alimony is like buying hay for a dead horse? Alot of my friends tell me to hang in there because eventually things seems to work out when you get older. I think it’s called alzhiemers.
It’s tough. Do I take my chances with the possibility things might change? Put up with the animals? Start a club with you all and make every Wed. Gumad nite?
I do know finding you all here and reading about these issues is cathartic indeed.
Tom G,
Please just leave and get on with your life and the time you spend writing these comments will be taken up with happier times!!
Do it now and have a happier rest of your life. Get your blinkers and earmuffs ready so you dont have to listen or see the drivel she comes out with to make you stay.
Go now and enjoy the rest of your life!!
Just some guy,
I feel sorry for you aswell. Dont think she’ll ever change unless you threaten to leave. You’ve asked for a contribution to a holiday and changed your joint account to separate but that is still continuing to keep her dependant. If she’s still got a roof over her head you are totally paying for, and food to eat paid for she will never work again. You just have to read all the posts on this website. Full of childish dependant women who have some sort of personality disorder who dont really truly love their husbands , they just love themselves !
niceladyk,
I can appreciate the advice on threatening leaving, but I don’t do threats and leaving the house isn’t practical.
Threats, to me, seem like just slightly more direct attempts at manipulation. I will do the “here are the consequences of your decision to not get a job, which include not being able to go on the vacation that you want or not having direct access to capital”, but I won’t do the “if you don’t get a job, I’m packing”.
Also, me leaving seems like a lose-lose proposition for me. My name is on the mortgage, so I need to pay it or default. If I leave, any judge would make a very easy decision to put some kind of temporary spousal-support on me, the wife having been abandoned by the bad guy.
The best case scenario I can imagine for me leaving is me paying for my wife to live in the house that I fixed up, and I’m paying to live in a efficiency apartment somewhere. Not even a financial wash, I’m then worse off.
I have read all the posts on this site and I must admit that my situation might not be quite as bad as some, 2 big things that come to mind are that we don’t have kids and at least we are both savers. If she were a spender and I a saver, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, I would have never married her.
I can completely understand Tom G’s situation, since its parallel to mine, its just cheaper to stay. I haven’t talked with a lawyer, but having been in a marriage for 16-ish years, thats a marriage of long duration, there is no just walking away. If someone could guarantee me that I would be on the hook for alimony/spousal support for 3 years or less, until she could support herself, I might think about going down that road.
From what I’ve read, that would probably not happen. Alimony would be 40% of my gross and likely last 10 years or more, possibly indefinitely, but it depends on the judge. Not to mention the dividing of assets, namely my pre and post tax retirement accounts.
So, I’m open to ideas that might lead to divorce, but me taking any actions that would lead to my wife being perceived as a victim in front of a judge don’t seem like good ideas.
That includes threats, walking out, selling her car, etc. Things like that, if presented in a court, put me on the hook for some vindictive divorce settlement nightmare, in addition to being kinda immature. This is the main reason that my options seem pretty weak, with vacations and separating bank accounts. I can’t exactly slap her around or lock her in the basement until I get my way, in the same way that she can’t force me to do or not do something I have my mind set on.
There are also some other things that she wants, like a kitchen remodel, and honestly so do I, and I’ve asked her to pay for half of it. So that’s a project that will probably never happen. So I get to live with a kitchen that’s functional, but bland as well.
You see the problem with just peeing in the punch bowl, its my punch bowl too.
If you have other ideas of ways I could approach the wife unemployment dilemma, I would love to hear them.
I know it might be so much easier if she had a need to buy shoes or some other non-essential that could be cut off, but thankfully thats not true.
For me this is a simple economic issue, and it seems tragic to have already have lost all that potential income for the years that she has not worked for a paycheck, and the time value of all that capital. But if the “solution” is even worse than the problem, namely financial devastation via divorce, splitting assets, alimony, etc. how did I solve the problem?
I may have made my moral point, that people should be capable of being financially independent, but in all likelihood I might put my ex into a position that they are a financial dependent by court order for the rest of my life. At least now the other aspects of our relationship are okay.
So I do understand the walk away option, but to me that like dropping a nuclear warhead on my house since it has mice. It does “solve” the mouse problem, but at what cost?
inappropriate Heinlein quote: “Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.”
just some guy,
Surely as you don’t have kids she would only get half of everything? So the house you live in would be sold and she couldn’t stay in it. You definitely sound unhappy enough to be on this forum so your marriage isn’t happy. You have spent so much time talking on this website I don’t know what you want it to achieve? Talking to your wife has achieved nothing so what is talking to strangers going to achieve if you can’t do anything about it. Sometimes in life you just have to “throw in the towel” and unfortunately do something drastic to achieve a result. Sorry but that’s my attitude. Divorce isn’t a nice thing but neither is being extremely unhappy as you have been to write epic letters on this forum?!! Think about it?
Just some guy,
Also your wife would have to get a job if all was split down the middle!
Actually other aspects of my marriage are good. The fact that the dear wife doesn’t have a paycheck is the one thing that does drive me nuts. If she were an emotional terrorist or used threats or we yelled and fought with each other or bought hundreds of pairs of shoes or she sat on the couch and ate bonbons all day I’d be gone already.
What does talking with strangers on the interwebs do? Nothing, other than some small bit of realization that I’m not the only guy out there with similar issues, and possibly finding an idea that I hadn’t thought of that might help. Its an outlet, probably better than buying a quart of whiskey.
I don’t find the idea of giving her half of everything in savings and assets as a horrible idea. Thats just stuff that can be rebuilt. It would make me unhappy, since its all from my income, but if that were it, I could live with that.
I do find the possibility of paying alimony _forever_ to be so horrible that it would be worse than my current situation. Like I said, if someone could tell me that I’d get under a few years of alimony then I’d look at separation and divorce as a serious possibility.
Everything that I’ve read that in California, marriages of greater than 10 years are considered long duration and there is a chance that indefinite spousal-support could occur, even with no kids. And the formula used would literally give her 40% of my gross pay, and she wouldn’t need to work, just like now. I think thats a screwed up possibility, but apparently no one asked my opinion.
Again, thanks for the feedback, and I appreciate bouncing the ideas.
I’m not ready to nuke my house yet. I’m just trying to find a way to fix the one thing that I see as a problem. So if there are any ideas that aren’t as far as pulling the plug, I’m glad to see if they work.
I think she will be glad to see me go. Being, dependant, resentful, entitled and the identified victim will leave no doubt her justification for being paid the rest of my life.
I am far from perfect, but my resentment is almost entirely centered on not having an equal partner. (I’ve said this to her as plain as you are reading this). She quietly pouted how I was so controlling of our finances, yet she kept “her” money well segregated and balanced while I juggled supporting three people.
In a very real way I also felt embarrassed that we/I was struggling so hard to give her what she seemed to want. My biggest enemy were all the second guessing and doubt. I was told I thought and worried too much…..somebody had to.
When I started to wake up some time ago I did remind her that she should really be greatful I did all this so she didn’t have to. The response I get lately is “It’s not all about you.”
Well, it is about me because I’m a big part of our family. Her Dad died when she was 4, I’m 7 years older….I get it. But see, I’m not her abstract notion of a husband or father. She romantizied and embellished (all natural) her dad which nobody could live up to in the real world. It’s a shit sandwich.
My hard work and her stonewalling are a very bad combination. The more she sits still and less she says , the more second guessing I undertake, angrier I get, and the resentment builds. I feel like a marble in a tin can.
Most men are task oriented to some great degree. When the task is clear and your partner says NOTHING most anybody would naturally assume something was wrong.
So, rather than keep walking in the dark waiting for your nose to find the sharp edge of a door, I stopped altogether. Then the terms “emotionally absent” a la Oprah and Dr. Phil started popping up. Talk about not knowing if you are foot or horseback….
It became easier and easier to throw up my hands and walk to my corner. I blocked out part of the silence by working which even though I disliked it, gave me some degree of satisfaction and control. Control of my thoughts, not of another person. I did not sign on to this. I wanted and was led to beleive my wife would be accretive and my equal.
I so want this to work and have some clarity as to the pathology that got us here in the first place, that some type of counseling will without question be in order to either bring this to a head, our set the new world order. It gives me more obtions in the near term.
Anyway, thanks for reading all my blather. Your comments and support help.
Regards
Hi, I know this comment is old, and you might not be checking up on it, but here goes anyway.
My husband’s mother is getting alimony from my husband’s long suffering dad for the rest of her life, AND half his pension. And to top it off, she cheated on him and left him for another (younger) man. He didn’t discover any of that until after the ink dried on the divorce papers of course. It’s insanely unfair and it sickens me. These things do happen, so I would tread lightly or you may indeed end up paying forever. Good Luck.
I feel your pain. My son came home last night at 2:30 drunk on vodka. I knew he was on something else and I said so. He dared me to test him. So this morning I bought a home drug test and …ta da! I took him up on his offer. Both pot and amphetamines….Good job.
We also got notification today he’s repeating his Jr. year in high school. Just a whole bowl of wrong!
He seems to be moving up in the world. I make light of this but if I didn’t I’d go mad.
Again the opening cost of a comprehensive program is north of $150,000. I diplomatically made an inquiry about liquidating her bonds to pay for part of this. Took seconds to hit the stone wall. She is consistant…
My strategy going forward? STAND STILL. My son is out of control, but MY feeling all along has been let him find his bottom. All the “therapy” in the world won’t help unless his heart is open to it. It’s not. $150K would therefore pay for hyptotising a chicken.
The wife also had these issues when she was young, so the pendulum swings. The pathology is obvious.
All families have issues, and most if not all people are out of their frigging minds. The question is, too what degree?
Like you my wife is a very frugal person. She balances that out with cat rescue. Not the worst thing in the world, unless it rises to the level of a cult.
Should I stay? I say no for the same reasons you outline. I’m just not ready to destroy the village in order to save it. Yet.
Talking to people does help to a point. We can blame everyone all day long, but as in therapy the focus is really on us and what we want. Controling our emotions is a big one for me. It makes no sense. Focus on myself is not easy when you have no idea where your mate is coming from. Maybe she’s waiting also? What do they say? Its complicated.
Stand still for now. See what happens, but remember. Your not crazy or alone.
TomG:
I’m sorry to hear about the turbulence in you and your family’s lives. Its a tough situation and I do send you sincerest sympathies.
Try to hang in there and do what you think is best, I think thats all we can try. Move forward as best we can, with our hearts and minds in the best place we can.
You are not alone.
Hi
Thanks for the good wishes. It occured to me over the weekend that I have to be careful not to become a serial victim myself. For years I’ve put up and… shut up. I’m just emotionally out of gas.
Thanks Again.
Tom G,
By the way half of your wife’s inheritance is yours. Half of her assets are yours as yours are hers. Why isn’t she sharing the inheritance with you as you keep her with your salary? Isn’t that a prime example of why you shouldn’t be with this selfish woman? Can’t believe you are still there putting up with her lack of contribution to your life? You and just some guy should forget all the hearts and mind stuff. Your wives don’t ;love you or they would help support you. Smell the coffee both of you and upsticks and use your time other than writing stuff here. Bet your wives don’t do this stuff. They just concentrate on a lazy workfree life! Hope you both leave your lazy wives soon and stop avoiding the inevitable. Your kids may even thank you for it longterm.
‘nice’ladyk,
Wow…..these guys really don’t need a lecture. They can get that at home. I’m sure your intentions are good, but the tone in some of your comments is not too nice IMO. They can write whatever they want on here, whenever they want, as often as they want. That’s what this site is for, and there aren’t very many like it. Writing helps people to vent, expecially to other people who are in the same situation, even if it doesn’t seem like much is accomplished from it. There is productivity that comes from venting. It’s therapeutic and helps you unwind and put your thoughts in order – so that you can do something about it later when you are ready. Writing about it gives you feedback from other people in the same situation and becomes encouragement…..well, most of the time…
nlk,
Inheritance and gifts are specifically not community property. The only exception to that is if the inherited assets have been co-mingled with community property assets and thats some legal nonsense that someone pays lawyers barrels of money to argue about.
You do have one note on your trumpet and you can play it loud. Divorce!
One size does not fit all.
I find happiness in the house being clean, the laundry done, the sex is good, the political conversations are stimulating, we share many goals and values in common, she supports my career. Those are among all the positives on the balance sheet.
She doesn’t have a job and she should have, thats my single largest complaint. Sure it drives me nuts since I cant understand it. I find it immature, its selfish, I think its unfair, its lots of things that I really don’t like. Is it worth throwing dishes against the wall or screaming or divorce about? Actually we have screamed about it before, many many years ago. Maybe, but I’m not willing to play the divorce card today.
Sure, I feel like I’m being taken advantage of sometimes, there is the financial security part, the part where it seems like 1950’s Father Knows Best TV-land, and some days are worse than others, but to say our relationship is an empty shell and there is no love would be a stretch. Like ogre’s this onion has lots of layers.
Just trying to effect some positive change in my life.
Irishgirl,
loved the quotes on nice, and you expressed precisely the reasons why this helps
Irishgirl,
Don’t agree about they get the lecture at home. Think they just get a brickwall at home and silence. Whether you think my tone is not good you don’t know me. Think these guys need to get firm and stop being “trampled all over ” by their wives.Maybe it is therapeutic to write but life is short and everyone deserves to be happy. Hope these guys do move on out of their unhappy marriages (not having a horrible tone here by the way just honest) and get the happiness they obviously deserve with nicer women who support them (not just financially).I actually stumbled on this website and was so sad reading about these men. I felt quite ashamed to be female at times but I hope they sort things out sincerely.
Anyway how did you get on this website?
irishgirl,
Please note my tone isn’t really much different to Dr Tara if you read her comments on this website by the way I’ve just read them. She’s a tough cookie obviously aswell then??
Take care
Just some guy,
What about a housekeeper? That solves the clean house thing? I think men just put up with the soppy stuff women come out with like Irish girl so you don’t have to be firm and act. When women are firm men seem to turn their ears off ? Don’t think you are happily married or you wouldn’t write on this site all the time. Delusional? As for the good sex? Well you answer that as an alternative? Is that why you stay? Just trying to get you to answer why you do actually stay and not go from your comments? Lots of questions to be answered? Your call then. Can’t say what Dr Tara would say but just read the latest blog on Male abuse by women. Take care.
Hi niceladyk,
Everyone here is trying to help and support others, including Irishgirl. It’s okay to disagree with advice given by others, but it’s not okay to take shots at one another.
Men and women come here to seek support; some come here to vent. Every one is at a different stage and heals at their own pace and that’s okay.
Some men choose to stay in their relationships. It may not be what you or I would do, but it’s their choice. Some men’s reasons for staying are valid for them.
Tough love is okay, but let’s not cross the line into giving each other a tough time.
I appreciate the support and advice you have to offer, niceladyk, just try to remember that everyone is different and if this isn’t a dealbreaker for some guy, that is his choice.
It’s okay for him to come here and vent. 6 months down the road, he may see things your way or not.
Thanks, Dr Tara
Dr Tara,
I appreciate your comments . I’m so saddened by the men on this site who at times sound clincally depressed and desperate. Hope you can help these men. Think I’ll reitre from reading these comments now because I feel like crying for them at times (Good tone Eh?) because they are obviously suffering. Think women will always want to be taken care of by men just my opinion whether it’s adult/grown up to do otherwise. It’s just an easy way out in life. Human being s will always use other human beings to get an easier life and I do sincerely agree that men are definite scapegoats for womens guilts and wrongdoings. Take care. Goodbye
Hi niceladyk,
You don’t have to go! You have a lot of valuable insight and support to offer. I can see your intense desire to help. Sometimes, we all have to remember to be a little more gentle with each other and I include myself in this.
I hope you’ll continue to drop by and support the men and women here. We need more people to care about these issues.
Kind Regards, Dr Tara
i for one think your cooments and advice are good.
A very touchy subject, but that is why we post and share. Nobody is afraid of ideas for sure and frankly none of what niceladyk writes is anything I have not personally thought or sensed. Not to disagree, it’s always better to give advice.
With few exceptions all the comments here are rather supportive and empathetic from men who live with these issues. Some of the stories here are almost like a reality check. Speaking for myself it often gets overwhelming when I am left marinating in my own issues. Some of it has been a reality check.
We all have options, but in a man’s case,in the real world that is, will without question change the rest of their lives.
Your input is great! No offence taken.
Regards,
I think that after being home for say 10 years raising kids it can be a challenge to go back to work. Kids keep you very busy with laundry, cleaning, car pooling, homework, teaching them about moral issues and other issues, supervising them to make sure they are not doing drugs, having sex, getting pregnant, drinking. I think it would be good for women to do some type of work when the children go back to school if possible, however, full time is a lot of time not in the home supervising. Also, I do believe it depends on how many children you have and how long you have not been working, one child is not that much to deal with, 2 is more, 3 is A LOT…I know I have three!! I know for a fact that my girls LOVE me being home when they get home from school at 2:30. They would be in a daycare setting for 3 1/2 hours after school if I worked, or home ALONE…scary! I am home with the youngest age 3 and would like to work to make money eventually, however, I dread working full time again.
I can really relate to this article, except in my situation it’s my husband who refuses to work. He got laid off 3 years ago and in 3 years he has maybe applied for 10 jobs. He thinks reading through online listings alone constitutes looking for a job. Meanwhile I work 2 jobs and up until 6 mos ago I worked 8-11 hrs a day 6 days a week. Meanwhile I had to pay someone to clean the house once a month. Our kids routinely run out of clean clothes despite having enough clothes for 2-3 weeks. Dirty dishes usually sit for days. And because I had to do weeks of heavy yardwork because he neglected it for 3 years, I now have carpal tunnel bad enough that I need surgery. It would be one thing if I made enough to pay all the bills, but I don’t even make enough to pay the mortgage. Then he cops an attitude when I tell him to apply for retail jobs. I would have left a long time ago if it weren’t for the kids.
Just a question. Through all the piled up cloths, dirty dishes, yardwork (maybe some inconsistant dinners?) did you cram your pride down deep and restrain yourself from being a sterotypical nag?
If so you can also relate to the same balancing act I played for years. Every day was a “lets just do whatever happens today” structure for her while I did what I was elected to do, make a living.
So many nights coming home to tails about a tough day at the puppet show and how the terrible 2’s got its name terrible I actually wondered what I was doing wrong or could do better. I get it. Wiping noses and asses all day is very hard work that typically does not start at 8 and end at 5 and have many if at all weekends off even if your under the weather. I have all the empathy in the world for what that’s like to endure, but when basics are not covered, clothes piled up, dishes etc. one has to question priorities.
In my case the more I took on the more time she had to watch her sister’s children. Yeah, you read it correctly. I took on the chores at home so she could take on chores at someone elses house…………..You may recall that when I was allowed to bring this up in marriage counseling she actually reached out and grabbed my leg and shook it yelling for me to shut up….The therapist was stunned, but to her discredit never explored that outburst. I suppose it was condoned?
She has also never worked outside of the home or otherwise make use of her teaching degree, rather she plunged herself into animal rescue and taunted me that I should also find a hobby. I thought a hobby was something you did to relax AFTER YOU WORKED? For the record, I work and really have no outlet. See, it’s even!
One more note concerning the Mayor of crazyland. She recently mowed two of our neighbors lawns while they were away and asked a third neighbor if she wanted her to maintain their property while they tried to sell their house. Yes, $25/ cut…….+ extras. To complete the picture, my property currently looks like South Viet Nam. I cut it last weekend…. I kid you not.
Anyway, my question was concerning repressed feelings.
Good luck
I tried but some days I just couldn’t. To prevent being called out he’d hide behind our kids’ skirts & scold me for criticizing him in front of the kids. Oh and he wasn’t at home dealing with them. Our oldest is starting 6th grade. Our youngest is 5 and has been in at least 2 or 3 days of daycare since infancy. I put her in daycare because I didn’t want her turned into an imbecile from 10 hrs of tv a day, which is what he did when she wasn’t in daycare.
I wish I had found this article four years ago. My ex wife fit all of these, with the significant difference that we didn’t have kids to use as a reason not to work.
the $ she made from cutting the lawns-in whose pocket did it go? If it went into hers then tell her since the going rate for a lawn cut is $25 or she can cut it herself. It looks like she tends to everybody–neighbors, her sister–and you & your home come dead last. Maybe we should fix up your wife with my husband and both our problems would be solved.
….Yep! Been this way since day one. I signed onto a relationship with an equal and I got her Mom. Always working on the fringe doing just…..enough to get by. I knew early on when we started out when I couldn’t fund my 401K (my employeer did a healthy match so we were actually giving away free money) or saving anything. Driving cars over 150,000 miles. No real vacations bla bla bla. I was juggling and freting making a car insurance payment and our mortgage. She told me that I was too uptight about $ and that ‘The money always comes.” When I asked her where she then said ‘That’s what families are for.” MY HEAD EXPLODED! THAT was a defining moment in our relationship.
Years later a freind of hers confided that her husband was irresponsible with $ and that she sort of resented it because she worked and carried the health insurance. Our children are the same age so it appeared at least her freind was living in the real world…
My Wife admitted this to me because I felt that after many years she seemed to mentally get it to some degree. Her Sister’s married guys who like to play first and earn a living second. Good fathers, good men, but the roles were reversed.
A mutual freind of both my Wife and her Sister took me aside at a party years ago and told me that my Wife’s siter would give anything to be my Wife and home with her three kids. Ding Ding Ding…..
Just yesterday her youngest Sister who must work and has three small children was crying that they had ZERO money and that she wants to rent a house at the shore for a week but could not afford it. She is the finance person in the house and comes from the school of paying your Visa with your Mastercard. She wants to go because she feels their kids deserve it.
In her Sister’s case her husband is clueless and she is the one who stays up nights juggling their cash flow…..Here’s the punch line. Her husband also says ‘The money always comes.”
It comes alright because some poor bastard does the “W” word every day so they don’t have to.
Yes, men are also offenders, but the not so subtle difference is the bizar resentment component of wives who force themselves into excile and then blame their husbands for not spending quality time with them, the kids, or family while we work our 40+ hours a day.
This is why it is crucial for spouses to work and participate in making sure the “money always comes.”
We have to take a look at ourselves and honestly ask the price of enabling our spouses and imagine what that looks like without feeling the guilt we have by letting go. It’s a balancing act similar to pin ball (I guess).
for what it’s worth, the women described here are a discredit to their gender. I never have and never would treat a man the way you gentlemen have been treated.
Thank you. so much. Recently married. Before we got married she had strong feelings of needing to work now that we are married she feels that since I make enough to skim by that she doesn’t want to. She uses her two year old from a previous relationship saying “I want to raise my child” (meaning daycares are the reason she feels uncomfortable) but the fact that her mom, her sister in law and my step mom don’t need to work cause there husbands make enough, it allows for her to view the world in terms of she has a right not to work. I am madly in love with this woman however I do not know how to calmly explain that in order for her to get som of the things she wants she really needs to consider at least a part time job. She has mentioned that she would be willing to watch two or three kids as a baby sitting kind of thing, but people here are law suite happy and will may sue the second there child falls down or anything.
Your wife should look into getting bonded and insured if that’s the road she really wants to take. A good friend of mine got into that and she makes great money doing something she loves, but she did it the smart way, but getting licensed, and properly protected.
Watch two or three kids? Get onboard the Rationalization Express. Then when my wife took in two, she behavied as if it were something that kept our family going since I was portrayed as CHEAP. You got it! A cheapskate depriving her and the children….HOWEVER, all that money she made went into HER bank account. Ah yes!
I also love this woman with all my heart, but she makes my hair hurt trying to reason with crazy.
If your like me you will defer to her needs and wants and hope it makes her happy. IT WON’T.
I let her go what she wanted, and in the end I was accused of being emotionally not present for my children. I still haven’tfully removed that knife from my back.
My wife’s Dad died when she was 5 so she’s well grounded in her own imagination of what would have been. Most of us grew up with Dad’s who had a few warts, in her case her Dad was Ward Clever and Superman. Add to that her Mom had an abusive and absent Dad, and her Grandmother the same. This is a Social Worker’s dream. Take all that and add that my wife’s spiritual mentor is her lesbian Aunt who was supposidly raped as a young girl and blames everything on “the stars” and not herself.
I should have made a clean gettaway when I could.
On a bright note, I found a very nice house recently and know that financially I can carry all of it + the house I’m in. It would be like being divorced without lawyers and retainers. I have not tipped my hand yet, but did ask her to look at it. I had my realtor call her who is a freind of ours) and she asked a few questions, but expressed no interest in looking at it. One of the purposes would be to get my boys in a decent school system. We tried to move 10 years ago to that district, but again i was overruled.
Your not alone Jason
I have a 20 year old daughter – almost 21 – whom I am afraid may turn into a person like your wives. I would really like your thoughts on how to prevent this. She is really, really, workshy. Always has been. She also was adopted by me at age 3, at which time she had untreated ear infections, ADD, protein deficiency malnutrition, had been sexually abused, and had a boatload of learning disabilities. She had a very heavy load of therapy and academical tutoring etc to keep her on track, and the learning disabilities were pretty much retired at age 14 at which time she was academically on track. We thought we were home free, but that was when we began to run into the behavioral problems. Leaving aside the school issues, one of her bf prostituted her and we ended up moving to get her away from that crowd. She’d pretty much put out on demand at that time. She managed to control us pretty much until she was 17; we couldn’t discipline her because she knew all about social services, and figured that if she was in juvenile detention or in a foster home nobody would force her to study or set limits on her. Knowing the local system, we figured she was right. We were terrified that she would just stomp out of the house, disappear into the underground economy, get pimped by an abuser, and end up dead in 10 years; most prostitutes don’t live too long. When she turned 17 (age of majority in MO), things changed. When she snuck out after curfew with my car, I called the cops, had her *ss hauled to (adult) jail: and then bailed her out two days later, and got her a lawyer. She had had an unpaid ticket that she had neglected to mention, so she got 23 hours of community service spent picking up trash on the highway, but since I refused to testify the charges were dropped. She never took the car without permission again. She was obviously doing her best to drop out of school in her senior year, I think because she was afraid of graduating and having to move on to college. We managed to circumvent that by doing most of her academic work senior year, so that she got a degree and we could pack her off to college. She spent the entire first semester at her illegal immigrant boyfriends’ house, did no work and we let her flunk. She got a job pushing high end vacuum cleaners door to door with the kind of success you might imagine in winter in a recession, and came back begging for another chance at school. We paid up, and she worked fairly well for a couple of years. Now its senior year, and she has gone into another tailspin because she is now facing the world of having to work for a living. We are rescuing her academically again, but once she gets her degree, it ends. We are not paying living expenses, although we pay for her health and car insurance. She is living with her illegal immigrant boyfriend – who works 10 hours a day, 6 days a week as a dishwasher – who supports her, but is beginning to realize that she probably will not work to get him out on a fiancee visa. She resents the money he sends home to his mother. She has no debt, but she’d have $100,000 on the credit cards if we hadn’t put a freeze on her account with all three rating agencies. Do you have any suggestions?
You sound like good people and good parents. You have gone above and beyong. Tough love, but empathetic. A hard balancing act. Our son is 17, ADHD to the max. Smoking and dealing pot, drinking, and having alot of sex with younger girls (thank God with protection – that we know of).
A freind of mine who went through this told me: You did not create it, you can’t control it and you can’t cure it. Sounds easy, right?
We are going through everything at this point. Blaming one another, her family blaming me for not being able to raise the boys better AND work a job that takes care of everything while their daughter cried working and child care were just too hard. Never attempted it, but I guess it just sounded like too much work. Who knows?
We looked into wilderness programs, theraputic boarding schools to the tune of over $150,000/ year. NOT. My wife “wants” that though TADA!
I found a very good military boarding school about an hour from home, and our son seems very eager to go. Thank God.
Fact is I learned in business that you have to pla, manage and execute by the rule. Focus on the goal and forget (for the most part) the hundreds of senarios that could work or go terribly wrong. If you look at things as one big unending problem you are essentially letting problems manage you. Solving a problem with a problem.
I say military school because the problem is behavioral and not all together smoking pot, although selling the stuff is criminal. yes, he can buy and sell the stuff at school. He can just hook up with his freinds on weekends and hoilidays and pick up where he left off, but my goal at this point is to give him a golden opportunity to graduate high school. That’s it. I can’t guaranty happiness or a magical turnaround if he spends 6 weeks in the woods making fires without matches, nor can I fathom what would happen after 8-12 months forced education and “therapy.” I don’t beleive that worked out well at the Hanoi Hilton. It is brainwashing, and part of the program is they come and get them in the middle of the night. Oh yeah, this is serious and Utah is a very parent freindly state to get away with this type “program.”
There are no studies or peer reviews on the outcome of these programs, so anyone reading and in this fix, speak to as many people as possible first. Going to therapy and making someone go (with our without a court order) is somewhat of a joke.
Just keep asking the question: “And then what?” Wilderness program turns into boarding school. Boarding school turns into a step down halfway house, etc etc….bottom line, with this economy and a high school GED, the kid will end up back at home where the trouble started. In other words, it’s a waste of time.
Anyway, if you can take it and convince your wife, take the hard line. “We love you, hate what you are doing to yourself, but we wish you well. Be prepaired to get a restraining order and late night calls crying that they are sleeping in somebodys tool shed. (A few freinds of mine who are all very born again Christians, took such measures to protect themselves and the other children in the home.
Just me talking, but it might do you well to speak to somebody for awhile if your wife is not on the same page. Often both of you are scared shitless or are so confused and, in my case, angry as hell.
Your not alone.
wow, great article. my wife has never worked outside the home. She has insisted it was always in the kids bet interest for her to be home, all day all the time. Now, she’s 50, I’m pissed cause I am still taking care of everybody, 22 yr old 17 yr old and a wife who insistes we are 50 50 partners and she is an equal. She has never put one dime into our savings, home or anything in the home. I have so much resentment.
For years I heard what she was going to do, to this day its still the same.
Nothing.
Vince
My Wife and I never discussed if it made sense or not. She took her highest honors science teaching degree and decided to stay home and wipe noses and asses. Fast forward…..our boys are 17 and 15 and have managed their own hygine for many years.
Both are in private schools now (our oldest is waiting to get into military school because he simply failed his Jr. year of high school, is smoking ample amounts of pot and drinking – plus girls girls girls). Yep, all that stay home Mom stuff is paying off in spades…..The most hurtful part echoed by her family is that I worked too much and was “not present” in his life. Shame on me for not quitting my job and staying home.
The literal kicker is that she and her family also lampoon my Wife’s Sister’s Husband for not working enough so they (meaning her Sister) can work less, take better vacations, and save for both college and retirement (I KID YOU NOT). All the stuff I’ve been doing for over 20 years ALONE. These are the same people who tell me that I worry too much about money and that if I just stop fretting I’ll realize (again, I shit you not) “That the money always seems to come.”
They are 100% right though, and I also know why. So nobody else has to worry about it. They also talk about trying to give them $10 or $20K to catch their breath…..Moral hazard anyone? Magic thinking at it’s finest brought to you by self entitled, unempathetic, selfish, self absorbed dunderheads. What do I do lately? I just stand still and keep the ink in my pen.
My problem was that I explained and defended myself every step of the way becasue I cared a whole lot about everyone. I’m not a tyrant, I just don’t rush into anything anymore or pay attention to the attendant silent treatment and stonewalling.
Good Luck
Vince,
I feel the resentment. I have a wife of 18 years, we are in our mid 40’s now and like you she has not contributed financially.
We don’t have the kids, but she has bonded on some pets that seem to take their place.
I expect a blow up this holiday, since I’ve explained that she needs to pay for any future vacation, and there is an expectation that we will visit the in-laws. Should make for a happy holiday.
@tomg
You are a better man than I. If someone came at me with those statements, “that the money always seems to come”, I would probably be staring at their lifeless eyes from their head skewered on a pike. All exaggerated, of course, but thats a just complete crap view, not even wishfull thinking, just insane. Finance and budgeting by miracle? Not something I’ve experienced to be practicable.
Again, I wish all you guys out there the best, and I hope we can come to some help of each other, if only through catharsis.
Just Some Guy gets it. I think we all do.
An update. Our youngest started private school last week, and military school admissions are very slow with our oldest, but I’m optomistic. I point blank asked my wife for her plans in contributing to all this tuition now that one son will be in school all day, and our other out of the house altogether. She is a college graduate, but her answer was “I’ll get a job at a supermarket.” I blanched……..For a nano second I thought she was serious. Then it occured to me that this was probably to guilt me in some way. Everyone, I heard the nickel drop. She has ZERO interest in working. Call it a nonverbal refusal.
THEN…….Since she already has a lot more time on her hands since our youngest started school, she’s thrown herself back into animal rescue AND has set up appointments to see a social worker to fullfill Ophra’s promise to give herself an opportunity to live their best life. Why I haven’t combed my hair with a Skiil saw is a personal accomplishment.
There MUST be something wrong with me. Codependent? Out of touch? INSANE?
TomG
The underemployment idea sounds all too familiar. The dear wife doesn’t apply for jobs that she is qualified to do with her college degree in math. There are areas of finance, insurance, accounting, computing, teaching, statistics, engineering that she would be more than qualified for as a career. All of those careers are options in the place we live as well.
So she applies for jobs that don’t require a high school diploma, so she can compete with a larger applicant pool that has more experience. There is no confusion on why there has been no success in finding a job on my part. Applying for jobs that have a labor force in high supply and low demand, while your skills that are in high demand and low supply stagnate?
Meanwhile the opportunity cost of the 18 years where she could have been maxing out a 401K is near $300,000. Not to mention the stress and frustration that having only a single small income early in our relationship put on me. Continues to put on me may be more accurate since I might imagine retiring in a few years on my savings, but “we” can’t retire yet, since “we” have more expenses than “I” do.
She retired long before ever starting a job.
The other sad thing is she isn’t realistic when it comes to jobs that she hasn’t had, the expectations of starting somewhere that isn’t the bottom. I’ve worked ever since the age of 14, paper route, lawn mowing, dishwasher, you can name a dozen crappy jobs and I’ve done them. She doesn’t see the need to start out at the bottom pushing the shovel, but with no practical experience she will need to start at the bottom in any career field.
If I told our story and instead of “wife” the noun was “husband”, the outcry would be to leave the no good bum. Why would a wife who refused to get a job outside the home expect to be treated different?
I don’t know why a life of laundry, cooking, vacuuming and the domestic arts is apparently enough, I’d take the clothes to the cleaners, hire a maid and a cook or get take-out if I thought that those chores were so demanding as to need the 60 hours a week that they apparently require. I will gladly scrub a toilet clean or find someone to do it if the extra income she earned meant that our weekends were spent on beaches with umbrella drinks and not catching up on the household chores.
It seems simple to me. If she wanted a job outside the home, she would have one. Since she doesn’t want a job, she doesn’t have one. Yeah, times are tough and jobs are harder to find now, but that is a recent excuse. What were all the excuses for the previous 15 years?
I’ve recently taken away her direct access to the money supply that I earn and have been clear that if she wants a vacation, she will pay for it, if she wants that new couch, she will pay for it.
The problem with the upcoming holidays is going to be her parents. They will offer to pay if we “can’t afford” the trip. Again, no mystery about how this has enabled a sense of financial entitlement in not needing to be employed to have access to money, money is just phone call to the parents away.
I’m looking forward to that conversation of, “you told me that if I found a way to pay for the vacation, we could go, my parents are paying, so lets go.” That’s your vacation, I’m going skiing for the week as my vacation.
I’ll probably end up being the bad guy if I enforce what I’ve said before, job=money=vacation, since that has never been true in her past, there has never been a consequence for her not being employed. “We” have enough money to go, but “she” doesn’t seem to have enough isn’t a possibility that she can understand.
One at a time the excuses for her not working at a career level of employment are falling away. The surrogate children (pets) have slowly been dying, and not being replaced. We no longer live in a democracy with one partner with one vote, we now live in a plutocracy where access to financial decisions is proportional to the ability to generate wealth, one dollar is one vote.
Is this a sad state for a supposedly equal partnership in a relationship? Yes, it is. Do I wish I could just let it go and be content with a dead beat wife? Yes I do.
However, she has put herself in the financial dependent position and I’m just going to treat her as one from now on. If you can’t figure out how to earn money, why would you expect to be treated with the privilege of being consulted in how to spend money?
I will continue to pay 100% of our joint expenses, in other words everything, but all the remainder is now mine, not ours. If and when she is able to fully fund a retirement account and pay half of the mortgage and bills, the remainder of her paycheck can then be hers to do with what she wants.
I can’t think of anything else to do that doesn’t end in divorce, but it can’t stay the way it has been and I don’t want a divorce.
Beleive it or not, about a year ago I gave my wife top billing (no pun) on our printed checks and our joint checking account as evidence that I consider our relationship equal. She says she’s always been hurt and slighted by the fact that I “control all the money” and this was my shallow jesture to prove her wrong. She wanted balance and equality and I handed it over with the dignity of a violin player on the Titanic. I credit the account, and she debit’s it. Her part is to keep that cash flowing down hill and unrestrained. Call it her part in contributing to the her own economic recovery. Writing the checks and making sure the bills are paid on time = her part. Pish posh on that old fashioned automatic bill pay! Y3K looms and we are well ahead of that curve.
Dr. Phil is mailing me that merit badge as I type………………..Collect!
It was all my guilt from years of listening to all the horror stories of grueling puppet shows, snooty Moms at play dates, fending off the apocalypse boredom, or cracking the code of “what’s for dinner?” God Bless older divorced female Certified Marriage Therapists. Without them I would have never seen the error of my ways or come in touch with my lack of empathy. As a result I have created a financial model that rivals Enron and would send Madof scrambling for a pencil. Changing nouns is indeed the spotlight. Nobody would put up with that for 10 seconds, and my wife’s family (females) would decend on me like the entire studio audience of the Vue and Oprah combined with Dr. Oz in attendence to administer the lethal injection. BTW: Are there any such men’s shows out there like this web site. Maybe it’s time. It’s expected that when men come together to talk about this stuff they lower their heads, speak softly out of the corners of their mouths, and almost take some strange level of pride in who is the most unhappy. It’s like we don’t mean it or want to admit that we are really pretty fed up, depressed, alone or hopeless. It’s like a game of misery horseshoes.
If anything Gents, this site has given me a sense of community. A healthy persective on what’s been nagging me or lacking in my understanding of what happened. Unless I married a total shrew, I don’t think she is really doing this as a concious effort to see if I could bite my left ear, or financially ruin our family. It is just wrong minded thinking on her part and something better sought after by a trained professional. I can see it very clear now and am better equipt to cope with reality. As sad and hopeless as it may seem.
No reason need apply!
This hits my situation right on the head.my wife is a succesful professional and had decided that she doesn’t want to be part of the corporate world sid she sits at home feeling bad about herself but resentung me because now shrunk is dependant on my income
I feel your pain. If the tables were turned and I decided to stay home with the kids while my wife worked, there would be a very significant backlash. In my case I would also feel guilty not fullfilling the mission I was born to do. Damn if you do…..
Now the kids (17 and 15) are back to school and my wife has decided to go back into psychotherapy. If anyone has experienced this, here’s the drill. After a few months, your wife begins to answer your questions with questions. “What does that look like to you.” If I comment that it looks like its going to rain all week, she says that I waste too much energy on negative thinking. Or, my favorite, she says absolutly NOTHING. My skin crawls having an additional secret voice in my marriag. What is particulary unsettling in my case, is that she refuses to share any of her therapy. Try sleeping next to that!
I would NEVER get married again.
Dr. Tara,
I have done much research and believe that I’m an ongoing victim of abuse via financial infedelity. In the history of our marriage my wife has run up extensive charge card bills behind my back. After 4 incidents some years ago, the total costs are still unknown to me, she purchased a car and signed my name on a contract to buy a house. Divorce never even entered my mind as I was raised to believe that divorce was a shameful act. Now some 7 years later, she’s done it again, run up over $30k in charge cards bills, again, behind my back. She says she’s so sorry but is not willing to make restitution by getting a job and paying for her mistakes. She claims to be too old, uneducated and inexperienced to find a job. My daughters are aware that someething is bad wrong in our marriage, but seem angry with me over our disfunction. My wife is angry and demands that I be more loving and passionate towards her and by not being so, I’m abusing her. I’m supposed to forgive.
Rob
This one’s easy. You will be trading charge cards with alimony. AND alimony is a huge tax deduction for you. You might come out ahead on so many levels.
Also, if a man controls a woman it’s abuse. If a woman controls a man, it’s a bad relationship.
We are always wrong and the courts see these woman the same way.
If those were the numbers I was looking at, I’d be oughta there in a second. I’d leave the news on a Post It note on the fridg. , serve the papers and move on.
I feel like a boiled frog: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog
The more years that go by the more normal this may all seem to be until you are boiled to death. We trust, we forgive, we rationalize, compromise and even defend our spouses only to wake up little by little and see the terror of what we are involved in. For my part I contributed and enabled this for almost 20 years until I surveyed my surroundings and discovered both my kids were 17 and 15. Go to school fulltime from 6:30 until 4 and stray animals began to pile up around the house, and cancelled checks for her psycotherapy tuned up regularly in OUR monthly bank statements. (My wife has always maintained her own checking account).
When I brought up the issue of paying for all the new private school tuition, I was told in the overt tone of a threat “I’ll get a job in a supermarket.” My wife has a degree as a science teacher…….any questions.
Credit cards are never an issue. She is actually pretty frugil, but a few years ago when she wanted our youngest son to attend a private pre school I initially did not like based on the facts, I discovered the $12,000/ year tuition was just not going to fit into a single salary of $45,000, a mortgage of $120,000, insurance, gas, food, etc etc….Her response? She forged my name to a legal contract for tuition and enrolled him anyway.
I feel your pain. I suspected this and wrote the school a letter demanding a copy of the contract. She broke down crying and confessed.
She NEVER apologised. EVER.
I understand all of this, how do i make my wife understand? If my wife does get a good job, will it change the scope of our lives to the point where we don’t see each other in the same light anymore? Will she not need me anymore in all of the other ways besides financially? Will she actually earn more or be more successful than I am? how will i feel about the opposite end of the spectrum. What if it backfires and then i resent her success? What if she gets a great job, but stops pitching in around the house?
Great questions, Chris. Is your relationship based upon her economic dependence on you right now? Is she the type who will think less of a man if she out-earns him?
I can only speak for myself as a woman, seeing as I don’t know your wife, but with the exception of my current husband, I was consistently the higher earner in every relationship I’ve been in, and I never looked at my partners differently. And with the exception of one guy, they all were basically okay with that too. And that guy didn’t last very long, lol.
To anyone who’s in this horrible situation, I give this advice. Get out of it. Do it. It’ll only get harder if you leave it and keep trying to “see the positive side of things” / “work it out” / “wait for her to see that you’re in financial trouble” / “take pity on your worried sick head”. These things won’t happen and you’ll end up ill and in serious debt.
I got out recently after a short marriage and can just about pull things back financially and health-wise. If I’d left it a couple more years, God only knows what state I’d be in by then.
I’ll also say that, once you’ve made the decision and done it, a lot of things become clear with newly-acquired hindsight. Little things that should have caused alarm bells about gold-digging but didn’t because you were “seeing the positive side of things”.
And I’ll tell you this – it feels GREAT when you’ve made the break. Even better if you can do it without her financially raping you. That look on her face when she realises that the free ride is over and she now has to face the real world….. priceless!
You’re a better man than me. I’ve been married 20 years, have two teenage boys, one of which is struggling with drugs, drinking and grades. BTW: My wife and her family lays that responsibilty at my feet even though she has been a “stay home” from the day we got married.
I have a high pressure job for over 30 years which I have not liked for over 10, but have no ability to transition since I bring everything home.
Although I have a significant health issue I recently developed, every professional attributes my emotional home relationship with making things worse. I could easily go on disability, but I fudge my condition so i can continue driving to work. In other words, I’m endangering myself and possibly others.
She is into animal rescue 24/7 while I work and both kids go to school full time. I do the math and average about 10 hours a day doing whatever she wants + weekends. I’ve sought professional help to develop various coping strategies, but all and I mean ALL have suggested I leave. One very nice social worker i saw for awhile went a little bonkers hearing all this to the point i had to calm her down. No, we couldn’t barter the co-pay….
I’ve threatened divorce too many times to the point where she uses that to further bolster her victim status. (Overplayed that hand). I’ve tried to reason and lastly yell, so on top of everything else, I am now portrayed as verbally abusive.
I’ve suggested marriage counseling, but she refuses calling it “a blame game.” She says there has to be a purpose to counseling….Duhhhhh.
Bottom line, I spend less and less time fretting what she thinks or does because it’s like me expecting fire not to be hot. This is simply what she does.
I’m hanging in, but there comes a time I guess.
Congrats Freeman, wish I had that short term marriage. Unfortunately mine is 18 plus years, and in California spousal support would more than likely be awarded.
We’ve gone to counseling, with no change. If I could walk away without screwing up my financials completely I’d seriously consider that option. As it stands now, if we went through even an amicable divorce without attorneys, I’d probably get half my retirement savings, we’d need to sell the house (a really great time to be in that market now) and then I’d need to pay for her and I to live in separate dwellings.
This would completely screw my finances and destroy any chance of being able to do what I might want to do in the next 20 years.
The way Cal civil code 4320. (a)(2) reads, “The extent to which the supported party’s present or future earning capacity is impaired by periods of unemployment that were incurred during the marriage to permit the supported party to devote time to domestic duties.”
It has nothing about raising children in there, its domestic duties. The language is weak and has nothing about “never got a job cause they didn’t think it was important” or “debasing oneself by trading your time and skill for filthy lucre” or whatever the notion might be.
I liken it to finding termites in your house and the last option available to you is calling in a nuclear strike. Sure, it gets rid of the termites, but at what price?
So is it a screwed up situation and do I think my wife is selfish and naive about not being able to support one’s self financially? Yes. Is the object lesson of filing for divorce to show how much she should be employed worth it to me now? No, not yet anyway.
Certainly not if the only thing it would prove is how a judge would award her half of everything I earn for the rest of my life. That scenario seems more likely that it would prove to her how the legal system justifies or even condones her behavior.
Like Tom G said about not expecting fire to be hot, I’ve tried everything I can think of to understand why this otherwise reasonable person cannot or will not get a job that pays a wage. Whatever it is, its a part of her, and while I would love for it to be different I can’t seemingly go in with pliers and a wrench and change it.
I’ve tried to handle this situation so many different ways, but I’m finally down to separating our finances. My paycheck now goes into my account, and once a month I deposit “our” needs in “our” account. I’ve given my wife an allowance to run the house.
Its a childish solution to a childish problem, but it makes it obvious to the wife that if she wants access to more than the basics, those wants need to be paid for.
Its also treating her as a dependent, since that is what she is.
For me, its provided one small bit of control to the situation, which I admit that I cannot control. Her behavior is her own, her motivation is her own, I might not agree with it, I might not like it, but the last thing I could do is control it. I can’t force her to fill out applications, I can’t force her to job interviews, I can’t force her to write cover letters.
What I can do is provide some motivation for her to do so.
Just Some Guy
I feel your pain. After the shit hit the fan with my son, we hired an educational consultant to deal with what was then a crisis. Our son was totally out of control and all my wife could come back to was a very expensive wildreness program (6 – 8 weeks in the woods) followed by a year in a theraputic boarding school. The consultants don’t like to give you any real financial footings, but from people I know going through it, or have been down this path, a very optimistic cost would be in excess of $150,000. Best outside estimate would be $175,000 +.
The whole situation, so I am told, is “a process.” Code for bend over and get out your checkbook.
I begged my wife for some help. She has bonds she refuses to cash in, and a resume that is over 10 years old. Being cornered I verbally let loose and demanded to know if she would tap into her vast untapped earning potential as a science teacher. Her answer???? Get ready………”I’ll get a job at a supermarket.” I let it fly calling her delusional and abusive. Out of touch, mean, and probably setting me up. Folks, between both children’s private school, the monthly nut is north of $14,000/ month. A MONTH!
She went on to say: “I don’t think you (me) should look at spending this money as a handout to our son. He needs help.” “Besides, you (me) don’t have to pay it all at once.” Well, it’s officially my MY problem!
I put my foot down, set up counseling for the entire family (a bleeding joke) and have a few contingency plans if he starts acting out again. Thankfully he’s currently on track, but who really knows. I guess that is a “process” as well.
One option I floated was simply tossing him out. Destroy property, coming in after 3 drunk and high, verbally abusing people. Police, etc is reason enough for me. You can’t force someone to change or accept therapy as a captive in the wilderness of Utah.
If anybody finds themselves in this position (I hope the hell not) keep asking the so called professionals a question: “And then what?” The big “And then what” was my belief after all that “process” he could not come home where got in trouble to begin with. My wife was mute….meaning she (not me) would not close that door.
My response: “You have no vote.”
Oh….her therapist must be working overtime to deconstruct what I said.
I am frigging in the wilderness, be have started seeing a very good social worker myself. I’m drinking from a fire hose with information to calm my mind and settle, but this is tough.
Here is the hook. For awhile I was going for the hook. I really felt (as I have since we started having kids) that if I give her something she really wanted it would please her and we would be closer. NOT THEN. NOT NOW. NOT EVER! Same woman who forged my name to tuition documents over my strong objections to send him to a Waldorf School…which is a cult. Pretty big in Calf.
I’ll therefore add one more pleading in addition to begging, reasoning etc…..Giving in.
So now our marraige is on auto pilot. She stays busy with animal rescue, and when that “job” gets a little too busy, she steps back and drops more responsibility on my head. The message is clear: “FU!” Yet, in public she is loved and gives love. We just ignore one another and she acts like a total bitch bastard when I do not let her provoke me into jumping up and down.
Guy, I understand perfectly. A study I read recently followed many couples who were having significant marraige problems. The result was of the couples who divorced almost none saw a significant improvment in their lives. The ones who struggled through were happier in five years. The primary reason was that they just got tired of fighting. Simply gave up on things they could not change. Encouraging huh? Get beaten to a pulp and like a POW become attracted to your captors. Learn to love being unhappy. Talk about the final death of an intimate relationship.
My wife has said to me that the problems I have now (my problems) will just follow me into my next relationship. Forget about meeting each other’s needs, just get used to ignoring them and they will go away. The mind F’ing is limitless.
If i could walk out my door right now with little or no consequences, there would be a sonic boom.
Oh, seperating the accounts is good for your soul for a few weeks. Trust me, unless you are made of tempered steel, it won’t help. We can’t win peace unless we remove ourselves which requires certain and painful consequences.
You seem like a very sensitive caring guy. Some men can take a life of malicious unfulfilled needs. BTW: All the social workers say the same thing “take care of yourself.” If it were only that easy playing squash, taking up fishing, or watching NASCAR. Face it, we want a deep intimate relationship with somebody who meets your needs as well. Somebody we can do these things with, not take up to escape pain.
If it’s not clear to our wives yet, they have a plan of their own and it does not include us. “Hurrah for me and the hell with you.”
Tom G,
I completely understand the sonic boom in leaving. Its the responsibility trap.
Its the consequences that keep me trapped too. Its worse than damned if you do damned if you don’t, its damned if you do and totally up shit creek with no paddle in a barbed wire canoe fck’ed sideways damned if you don’t. You have been the only one to bend and bend and bend again, but when it comes to some financial help through cashing in bonds or getting employed the answer is no. I feel that.
I’ve been hitting that autopilot on the relationship. We are civil in public and private, but there are so many years of baggage here that we just can’t discuss. I want to have conversations about the significant things too, not just the fluffy little puppies down at the animal shelter and how we need to adopt another one.
We’d get another dog if it wouldn’t become another excuse for her to not be employed. So my position on the new pet:, “figure out a way to pay for it”.
I’m saying that now, “figure out a way to pay for it”, and I know the separate finances is a bandaid on a gaping wound. If I thought something else might give me peace about this trapped situation I’d try that too.
We had our share of yelling and fighting when we couldn’t afford to live in a safe neighborhood and she wasn’t employed, but fortunately that was years ago. Now I keep pretending to think that she might find a job when I ask about how the job search is going, and she keeps pretending to look for a job with temp agencies or help wanted on Craigslist.
Last time I saw job advertised for a financial analyst, statistician or actuarial it wasn’t Craigslist. Its your same “I’ll get a job at a supermarket” reply. I understand her empty resume is a problem for finding a job in this economy, which means she needs to try all the harder.
No matter, if its not her idea its not going to happen. I’m simply not giving her ready access to other possibilities that are her ideas.
I like your observation on the Stockholm syndrome. Maybe that is where I’m going, or am already there. Also, maybe this is part of the vast plan where the dear wife causes husband enough stress to kill him off with a heart attack and she takes the inheritance and finds a tanned cabana boy-toy. Perhaps. I’m just going to try to stay focused on what I can do and in my new world actions have consequences and in-actions also have consequences.
I’m done with being the knight in shining armor rescuing the damsel in distress, like the bumpersticker says, “ass, grass or cash, no one rides for free”. Not really sure I care any more about where this sense of entitlement comes from that allows her to expect that her role in our marriage is unemployed, as I refuse to use the word “homemaker”.
Not really sure where this is going to take us, but its not going to be here. Which is fine since we’ve been here for a while and I want to go elsewhere. When her car breaks down and we don’t fix it, when the credit cards don’t get re-issued with her name on them, when she needs to ask for more money because I’m only depositing half of our living expenses in the joint account we’ll probably be in a different place then.
If I’m not over the edge already on seeking a divorce, I can see that edge pretty clear from where I am standing; I’m just not ready to call in the artillery strike on my own position yet.
Stay strong brother!
Yep. A lot of talk and threats in the past. Now she does not even look at me or seem to want to stay in the same room. I protect myself by exiting the room first, or read a book if in bed.
If there is a wedding, I am the first and last person on the dance floor. I’m not a good dancer I assure you, it’s something like breathing and participating in the event rather be anywhere near exposed to their trigger fingers.
Frankly, I notice it pisses her off that I talk, laugh and interact with people who she knows aren’t red hot on her or her family. Truth is, I smile my ass off and laugh at other people’s jokes. It’s a hoot! Most times I actually forget about my anxiety walking into these parties.
Then when we hook up after a dance near our table, and, in the style of my master, my face sort of changes and I speak very monotone one or two word answers as I take the dance floor with gusto. An object in motion tends to stay in motion.
A former girlfriend of mine (35 years ago who is married and Mother to two young men) heard about my epilepsy (her oldest boy is having his third brain surgery in a month for his seizures) gave me (her son did) a metal of the patron Saint of neurologic disorders. I wore it and she went into her best passive aggresive personality rage ever. Rage meaning a silent sneek attack. A beating that leaves no physical scars or marks. It was like a science project.
We have sex once a month (if that) bearly talk, and by all apperances don’t seem to like one another – so what’s the downside?
I’ll keep hanging around all the other black sheep. Maybe we can start a club. The stories I hear from these sheep sometimes cheer me up. I’m thinking it might be more DNA than behavior, bad toilet training, or Daddy issues.
If you can, latch onto and richly savor these few shallow and meaningless opportunities to be obnoxious. Make a game out of it.
What the fuck….
Tom – I’m not “a better man than” you. I’m just a man with a different set of circumstances which made it easier for me to walk than it is in your case. Love the Boiling Frog analogy. Also the bit about expecting fire not to be hot. Coincidence – last week, I was looking back at what could (I thought at one time) be a good marriage. I asked myself – “This could have been sweet. Nothing impossible. Why didn’t she just find a job and act like half of the team?”. Then I thought that I might as well ask why that stone over there didn’t move itself into the sun. Nature & essence. And, I see now, reluctance to find work was only a symptom of the deeper problem of psychological bullying alternating with emotional blackmail.
Some Guy: again, I sympathise. Your circumstances are also very difficult to mine.
What I mean is, you get to a time in your life when you realise that health is THE important thing. For me, I was willing to take a major financial hit & walk just to preserve my health (emotional, mental & physical). As it turned out, I was able to limit financial damage much more than I’d hoped. But that was just a bonus. I’m trying, inarticulately, to say to people; consider your health. If older children – rather than little ones – are involved, it gets easier to make the break and a money hit is easier to deal with than a breakdown / heart attack / stroke. And the dignity aspect is important too. I asked myself why I was allowing myself to be treated in this way.
But I recognise that everyone’s circumstances & tolerances are different.
p.s. funny thing – mine was into the animal rescue stuff too!
oh – and the point Some Guy makes about being in a different place when her car breaks down & doesn’t get fixed, credit cards don’t get reissued in her name, only half living expenses go from his wage to a joint account – yes, a different place indeed. I told mine that this was going to happen & that’s when it all blew up. Maybe that’s how your situation will resolve itself. And coming to the realisation (in my case, at least) that I was just an ATM on legs made it very easy to discard any baggage about “love”.
I have to relay sort of a funny story from a night ago. Animals are my wife’s “passion.” We have two yapping Jack Russels and three cats of our own. Long story on why I let three cats accumulate, but lets just say i’m a pussy.
For most of the night the three cats went on a tear. Running all over the house and jumping on and off our bed. At 3AM I had enough. i launched my bed pillow at them and they scattered until I opened my bloodshot eyes at 6. Naturally, I have a “rage problem” so the silent treatment was well under way when I hit the shower.
Background. When we first got married I brough a very small TV I owned before into our bedroom. Several months later I was admonished to remove it because…….It interferred with her sleep and was a distraction (sex?).
Anyway, I very gently brought up the subject of the TV,and like Columbo wondered outloud why i removed it. Now we are at the point in our relationship where even a question is nastily rebuffed. Her answer was : “yeah, I never wanted it in the bedroom, but that is just one more thing you didn’t give a shit about what I wanted.” “I needed sleep and you just didn’t care.” SHE TOOK THE BAIT!
I then started out compromising. I asked her what a reasonible amount of animals we could have in our bedroom during the night. 2? 3?
BINGO, she caught herself. “Why didn’t you just come out and say what it is you wanted to say/” Now I’m grinning with the lights out. I did not answer that question, rather I answered the question I wanted to pointing out i agreed that distractions in the bedroom were not good and this is just one more thing I wanted that she’s ignoring. …Crickets……
THEN she says: “If you don’t want the cats up here, YOU lock them up.” The same animals I never wanted in the first place. Tag, I’m it! It’s now my problem. end of her storyline. Here therapist will be proud! She stood up to me and told me where to get off. Such childish nonsense. I felt pretty empowered that I didn’t go for her bait. Now the challenge is refraining from buying into her provocations.
I made my point calmly and unemotionally. Lets see what happens.
I was hardly aggrevated by the familiar silence after that exchange.
This is uncanny. Tom G & Just Some Guy both have wives who are into the animal rescue stuff. So did I. And the story about the cats in the bedroom… boy, does that ring some bells with me. With us, the cats had to have free access anywhere in the house, so all the internal doors had to be left open (great for draughts in winter). Now I actually like cats, but the creatures would keep jumping on my head during the night. Then there were the other rescue animals. Then the vet’s bills…
If you guys appreciate gallows humor, please do a Google image search for “Goodbye Kitty” (a rather dark, albeit funny spin on the “Hello Kitty” brand.)
..and a slightly off-colour rabbit was always certain to get more sympathy than an injured me (took my thumbnail off building hutches for the useless eaters).
Ah, no more!!!
“Goodbye Kitty” – class!
I am a second time loser. I divorced in 2001 and remarried in 2006. Don’t get me wrong I love my wife. It’s just that she hasn’t had an income our entire marriage, and with the financial pressure of providing for 4 children and a wife is tremendous. Two years ago it became more than I could bear, with the downturn in the economy my income dropped to 1/3 what it had been before. I maintained by going into savings, but now those are depleted. I’m still working and making progress increasing my income but its still not there yet. I’m now worried that I will lose everything. We’ve cut as much as we cut. All that is left is the house and selling that is probably a break-even proposition in this real estate market. Also I’ve fallen behind on credit so my credit rating is the toilet.
My wife knows how serious this is. She seems to be satisfied to let it all fall away. A year and half ago she told me she was going to right a book and do some e-commerce “self-help” kind of stuff…make lots of money. She watches all these internet gurus on internet marketing, and sales. Frankly, I don’t understand it, but she seems passionate about it. She has bought tapes, “webinars”, attended conference calls, and read books….but still nothing, no income. Every time I bring it up (which is all the time now) she says I need to “think positive” and that its going to be “great”. This nuts, we need income.
When we met, she was professional, had a six figure income, and was financially independent. In 2004 (before marriage) she wanted to start a restaurant so I helped her. It failed and I lost six figures in the deal. Plus got tied up in a litigation over some crappy contracts, leases, and equipment. Some of it my name was on. Cost a ton in legal fees, and dragged on for 3 years after the damn restaurant closed. Finally closed out that mess last year by writing another check for $28,000. I wanted to fight, but she was depressed and felt that we should just turn the page and move on with life. So I did.
But she never got an income. Never worked. My youngest daughter was born in 2006, so I felt guilty putting pressure on her to get a job. I was clear before we got married. I’m not interested in a stay-at-home mom. I find woman lose their minds staying at home. So, financial reasons aside I wanted a spouse that was “in it”, in the world with me.
She was like that before we got married, but keeps on keeping on. I told her we are on the brink of losing everything. She is into this law of attraction thing and tells me I’ve focused on the negative. That ITS going to be alright. This is nuts.
I am now behind on my child support (first three children) and my ex is taking me to court because she doesn’t believe I am learning so little. The courts are threatening to put me in jail if I can’t come up with the money. I now have creditors calling as well. I can’t hire an attorney because I am flat broke. My knows all this. This didn’t just happen, it has been a slow suicide crash. She won’t get a job….and I am losing my mind.
E Hamilton
Hate to say it, but you are screwed and your Wife has a major screw missing. She is obviously out of touch. It’s like quick sand. The more you struggle, the deeper you sink.
Your previous wife has a target on your back and does not realize she is going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg if she jails you and does not work with this reality. I’m sure the ex knows that Wife #2 is listening to Gail King, Dr. Oz and Oprah and is totally empowered to “live their best life’ at the expense of ending yours.
I admit i was listening to one of these shows one evening. A woman caller was telling the radio audience that she had lost all respect for her husband because he lost his job a year ago and has not been able to get work. She admitted it was wrong to think this and that she was not showing enough (any) empathy but notheless went on to say she could not help it and resented him for it. I gotta tell everyone, I sat in my driveway listening to this and had to compose my emotions before i went in my house. This woman was crying and Oprah was drying her tears.
I often think what it would be like if a man just stayed home and did animal rescue all the live long day, made zero apologies for it, and flat out refused to contribute. lets just say I know that reality listening to that broadcast. It’s our society.
I had an incident this weekend where i lost my cool. i threw a baseball cap at the wall near my wife and she jumped across the bed, grabbed my face, punched me and kicked me in the nuts.
If I did that i would not be typing this right now, or typing from jail. Regardless of anything, I’m wrong. We’re wrong. Her anger and violence are the product of a “bad relationship.” If i did the same thing it is considered “abuse.”
My choice? I file for bankruptcy like yesterday and ask nobody’s permission. It won’t change the support issue, but it will call off the creditors so you can catch your breath until you develop a plan. I’m going to guess all the debt is in your name anyway.
The mortgagee will call off the dogs and make a deal with you. Trust me, I’m a commercial banker, I see it all day long. pay the taxes, the insurance and keep the property up to par and you will buy time. Don’t hide – be proactive. it goes a long way.
Your eatting a S–T Sandwich and you just need some time to figure something out. Your bankruptcy attorney might be a good resource. I bleed for you.
Your wife let her business tank and you bailed her out? She does not see the urgency and is the mayor in la la land. Think positive? Delusion. Hateful delusion. I’m so sorry
The latest installment for me is physical. I had bought cookies as snacks for a neighbor’s child who stays with us. My wife came in and saw them and asked what they were doing there. I told her and she became angry, walked up to me and dug and twisted her fingernails into the veins on my wrist. The neighbor’s child was in the room so I didn’t react. Later I asked her what “that” was all about and she told me if the child hadn’t been present she would have hit me in the face for bringing fattening snacks into the house. My fault, I guess; all MY fault.
Rob
“… walked up to me and dug and twisted her fingernails into the veins on my wrist”
“… told me if the child hadn’t been present she would have hit me in the face”
W o W !
From your earlier post: “Divorce never even entered my mind as I was raised to believe that divorce was a shameful act.”
Shameful behavior by a woman, on the other hand, seems to have been excluded from this bit of cultural programming. I wonder if the same people who cooked up the ‘shameful act’ stuff would have endorsed a woman digging her fingernails into you skin and slapping you in the face.
And I’m sure if this is how she rolls, this isn’t the first time she’s ‘enjoyed’ indulging her anger physically on you.
The ‘boiling the frog’ metaphor from TomG above is true. You’ve got to re-calibration things something serious. You’ve totally lost track of ‘acceptable behavior’.
Someone does something like that to me, my instinct is to react physically. It’s built into us as men. Having to suppress that natural reaction to retaliate physically every time you are subject to physical violence is going to break and twist things inside you … and following the path of learned helplessness like ‘all MY fault’ is just double dipping into the violence.
First she’s violent against you physically. Then you’re violent against yourself psychologically. It’s a double whammy. You’ll start hating yourself for not sticking up for yourself.
You can’t react violently against her. And shouldn’t. But you can’t disrespect yourself and let her be violent against you.
And for violence to be ‘satisfying’ to the abuser, I’m pretty sure it has to increase in some way, more frequently, or more vicious.
My mentally disturbed ex once showed up at my back door slamming her hand against the window. Once in my apartment she started throwing whatever she got her hands on onto the floor. It took me a few seconds then I restrained her and told her she will not get my violence and that she had to calm down.
This is a zero-tolerance issue. As one who has had to work through this myself – thinking you can just swallow this crap and then seeking sympathy from others afterwards is the wrong strategy.
W o W ! Hop out of the boiling water man!
I say get out before it gets worse. If you don’t think she would be capable of something sinister, just look back to Phil and Brynn Hartman.
Well…It happened again a week ago. Me and the Mrs. were arguing and I threw a baseball cap against the wall. I’ve NEVER layed a hand on her, but I have been assaulted by her a few times. once in front of her family.
With that outburst, she dove over the bed, grabbed my face, hit me up the side of my head and then kneed me in the balls. She would have still been pounding me still if i hadn’t pushed her away and threatened to call the police.
She then claimed that I had manufactured the whole episode to get her arrested. I withdrew.
More shock….she then called her therapist for what i can only guess was a major add on to her story line.
She then upped her last claim that 15 of the 20 year marriage was bad, to “It was bad from day one.” Hummmmmm. IS anyone out there crying for her yet?
The poor dear putting up with never working a day and all the rest of it…..I guess I can be called the abusive partner for throwing a hat against a wall and defending myself. What would Oprah say????Oh dear. Can Dr. Oz spare an ice pack for my family jewels?
I’m done folks! Who gives a shit…
those are ploys gentlemen, ploys to get you to raise your hand in anger and leave a physical mark of abuse
once the evidence of physical violence by a man is established you are screwed
call the cops, file the police report, get the documentation, but expect to spend the night in jail when you do
when the police respond to a physical domestic violence in the home report, someone is going to jail, most likely the guy even if they are the subject of the violence
the courts are now more aware of physical violence initiated by women, but its certainly not their go to conclusion
however, put the actions of your “better half” in the mirror and ask how it would be viewed in a court if she were male and your were the woman; if it wouldn’t be tolerated if the genders were reversed then bring title 9 and equity between the sexes to the next level and demand equity
ask yourselves wwmuwd (what would my useless wife do?) then do that
Thanks
As I said this is not the first time. When I bring up the previous times her reaction reminds me of a child that blames everyone else for their behavior. In these cases she is empowered through the insular Oprah world view of sexist generalizations and ignor any adult basis for reason and responsibility of their actions via DNA.
Being told I was being a “big baby” only flows one way. There are no visuals of a woman in a tee shirt drinking beer raising a hand to her husband and then blaming him for making her angry. Lets face it. If a man sports a black eye or a slinged arm the vast majority of people automatically assume he probably had it coming. If a woman presented with the same injuries that vast majority would push the sympathy button and pin the “pre-judgement O Meter.”
Truthfully, I do blame myself. I do have strong urges to apologise and calm the raging waters so it will never happen again. This man does not like to see my wife upset, and oddly I still fret that her pep talks with her therapist (who is not only divorced but who’s husband cheated on her) is mixing this bonding agent to keep this delusional story line intact.
I think it is just healthier for us to get away from one another. There are things in our relationship and in society that won’t permit me any benefit of the doubt. So why risk the exposure? Everyone, and I mean everyone says I should move on.
Go to the police station and file a report, tomg. Today.
I missed my opportunity. It’s been months now. I see my attorney monday to discuss options. I might get hosed with tuition into infinity + lifetime alimony.
I have a passport and can arrange to take care of everyone’s NEEDS. If she WANTS more, she can work or try and find me.
I’m done
Are there women still out there like this!?My husband argues with me BECAUSE I work, even though two of my kids aren’t yet school age. Luckily I have the option to telecommute the majority of my work, and set my on hours unless I am meeting with an author, or the printers etc. (I work in publishing and do freelance copy-writing as well).
If my husband had his way I would be a housewife for good and never return to work. He dreads the day all the kids are in school because I will definitely return to working most days at the office. He wants Donna Reed, but that’s never going to happen, lol.
Glad to read comments from the real world from a real woman with real self esteem. I work with woman all day long who are in the work force becasue they really have to be. Be it benifits to bridge their husbands self employed status, make ends meet, pay for college, save for retirement with employer 401K match, or just to keep fresh and out of the house. You know….stuff adults do.
In an amusing way your posts ticks me off because it reminds me of how screwed up my life has become.
A professional recently posed the following question. “I you were to wake up tommorrow in your perfect world, what would that look like?” I took the bait and ran with it without hesitation.
I wouldn’t worry most of the time that the stress of my job (which I hate but am financially trapped in) didn’t contribute to my epilepsey, I could spend more time with my kids and have a better relationship with them, I could transition into another career, felt I have a partner who gives a crap how I feel and deal with all of this….Notice that all these needs not being met are not material?
Thanks for the reality check..
I’m sorry for your troubles Tomg. I hope things work out for you, no one deserves to be so unhappy, and you sounds like a decent guy to boot.
Thanks Frances
I have not been a decent guy to myself for awhile. I had a life before all this and for the most part I enjoyed my own company. There are days, and there are days…..Depending on what voices my wife is hearing that day, she can be engaging and somewhat fun to be around. the next minute or day she can be distant to the point where there is no possible way to notice otherwise. My sanity is often to just not engage. It’s empowering, but so darn lonely being married to an adversary. Example. She asks me a question on any topic. Frustrations, fears….you name it. She asks, I answer the best I can. She is often never inhibited or constrained to any topic, but i am (and she has said) at least I’m for the most part truthful.
If i ask a question she typically asks me the same question, ignores me, or brings up instances out of context where I may have said or done the same thing. Alot of times she leaves out the outcome of these past situations, ignoring the fact that she confronts me with the issues and I engage in answers. Frankly, not responding whatsoever is the worst followed by being asked the same question.
I spoke my story line with a professional awhile ago, and her comment was if i were angry at the outcome I really had every reason in the world to be.
Lets face it. My wife alone choose to stay home and not work. At the time the excuse i heard was “You will not share duties bringing up the kids and it will all fall back to me.” Well, I never promised anyone a rose garden. So, she basically told me that it would just be too hard.
Why not try it for awhile and then show me how it would have never worked out? She never ever gave it serious thought.
Thanks for your support!
I am utterly amazed and profoundly thankful that I have found this website! I appreciate ALL the information everyone has shared!
Can I get an Amen! in the back? This is my situation to a T. I’ve even told her she’s not my wife, she’s my dependent. Can I add another deduction on my W-4 for her? No, I can’t. Totally right about an independent wife is sexy. So right about the role model a mom provides. School? Schmool. Why bother, if your archetype is a professional dependent, on the husband.
Currently going through this and I’m incredibly frustrated. My two kids aren’t in school just yet but I just feel that if my wife is going to be home all day with these kids while I’m out working all day, then I shouldn’t have to come home to find my house a disaster and feel like I have to come home to start doing things that should have been done during the day. And I shouldn’t be receiving any attitude when I suggest simply that a part time on her end would help us out greatly.
If you want to figure out who is right and who is wrong, just look in the mirror. If it’s really a game, the deck is stacked, cards marked, and counted. Forget it!
I’ve thought this and have even said this out loud. We have two teenage boys. One is away at a very expensive boarding school, the other is in a private high school so she literally has 9-10 hours a day for herself to do what she wants, when she want. In her case she is totally into animal rescue. Even after hours. All day. Every day.
So, if we were to reverse rolls (HA) I told her i would be institutionalized. Seriously! Think about it. A grown man with a college education, saving the world for animals while, staying home and CHOOSING not to contribute to over $9,000/ month in tuition. (Twice my net pay)!
First of all, i would not do it. Second I swear her family (maybe mine) would would have me evaluated. I’m very serious! I flip out when all her cell phone bills come in and i see the fuel bill from driving clatters of cats all over hells creation PLUS her psycotherapy bills!!!!!!
NOW I’m told i am an (get ready) an emotional blackmailer! Verbally abusive! Etc Etc Etc….
Again, the therapist I see on occasion who has seen our whole family has seen and heard all of it tells me ;”Who wouldn’t be angry?” he’s asked me if I have ever considered divorce. Recommened I at least talk with an attorney…..It was his unsolicited opinion. I don’t think trained family and marriage counselors generally render such opinions….
Anyway T.A., get ready. It’s only going to get worse! Sorry
TomG and I are in the same situation, mostly. Its all stacked against the husband when it comes to a possible divorce (spousal support for long term relationships could be indefinite in my community property state) and then what does that accomplish other than being legally obligated to write your now ex-spouse a check every month? That thinking clouds the mind.
I can blame myself for the position I find myself in. The dear wife doesn’t have a job, let alone a career. She is a college graduate in math and statistics and she is looking for work at a temp agency without any luck, primarily without any success since she doesnt have any experience. Finding a career at a temp agency has about the same odds of success as finding true love in a brothel. However, it provides a sufficient set of excuses and things to do during the day that look like effort that personal responsibility for employment can be safely ignored.
Much like TomG’s better half (apologies for the sarcasm), she is also spending 20+ hours a week volunteering at the local animal shelter. At least she gets out of the house and can play with dogs, right? I agree that we should all throw tennis balls for a dog to chase, I like it, the dogs like it, its a win-win, I’m just looking for the ad in the newspaper for a position that calls for that experience and I’d apply myself.
Why do I blame myself? Is it because I have low self esteem and don’t see women as having enough free will and determination to make life choices? No, its because I’ve been patient and accommodating and supportive and tried to figure out financial ways to make things happen on a single income when the rent came due every month. I spent my creativity in finding ways past the low balance in the bank account to go on a vacation or buy a house when those became priorities, not commanding my wife to get off her lazy ass and get a job with the passion of a Mussolini speech. I didn’t make myself clear enough that her being employed was so critically important that our lives depended on it. I didn’t cancel her credit cards, sell her car, deprive her of shelter, deny her wants, so it was ambiguous that what I said that her being employed was important.
There was never a consequence for her not being employed. No job for her meant that the bills still got paid, food was still in the cupboard, we didn’t live under the freeway overpass in a cardboard box. What she didn’t see is that no job for her meant that I had to dedicate more time to my career to ensure that a single income source was stable. No job for her meant that vacations were local, not the three weeks in Paris that she would like. No job for her meant that life was more burgers and beer and not champagne and caviar. No job for her means that I retire at 65, if ever, and not with plans to see the world, maybe a long weekend in Vegas once a year. No job for her means that I am solely responsible for all of the financial support, a single point of failure in troubled economic times. No job for her means that the house gets paid off when my life insurance policy pays out, so not in my lifetime.
When I phrase things in this fashion I’m told I’m being overly dramatic and told that we are doing fine. Depending on the definition of “we” then maybe we are fine. The old joke about the guy whose hair catches fire while his feet are stuck in the frozen lake, and says, “on average, I’m fine.” The way for us to be fine is for me to work until I’m dead, since either working or dying are the pay out plans in this brilliant financial scheme I’ve got going. That seems fair enough, right?
I never asked for a housewife, I wanted a partner in all aspects of life including the income and spending parts. If the floor was always spotless and dinner on the table when I rolled down the driveway, I’d think I might have stumbled into a 1950’s TV show, but that wasn’t the case. Why would I want to live with a woman who chooses to become the live-in maid and cook for the local man-lord money bringer? Isn’t there some gender equity and my role as cave-man in bringing home the mammoth meat and her role as cave-woman in keeping the cave tidy a little antiquated? However, chores around the house were always saved up for us to do together on the weekends, since its my job to help around the house as well as pay for it.
Well, not any more.
I think I came to this revelation a few years or so ago. What if the roles were reversed? What if as the husband I didn’t have a job and my wife went to work everyday to support the two of us? First, the unemployed man is just that, unemployed. The unemployed woman is a “housewife”. This is just the tip of that double standard iceberg. You don’t get to pick your equality ala carte, you get the whole steaming pile of equality, not just the parts you want. There are some biological differences, child birth, breast feeding, I got that, but there is nothing gender role specific about the rest of it.
If the choice being made is non-equity in financial obligations then the result is non-equity in other obligations. If you don’t pay for half of the household expenses then there is an obligation to support the household in other non-financial ways. Choices have consequences. I don’t help with the dishes, clean a toilet or do laundry, not that I am incapable, but because when asked I say, “right after you get a job and pay half the living expenses, then we can hire a maid, until then its your chore.”
So, having spent 15+ years asking my wife “hows the job search going?” and getting silence or hostility or some other negative reinforcement so that I learned that isn’t the question that should be asked. I’ve learned that what I need to do is ask “how do you propose to pay for it?” when questioned if I want to see the latest movie or where do you want to go on vacation?
My wife’s choices to not pursue gainful employment has resulted in me choosing to have more than just “our” money. We used to have just “our” money, now we have “our” money and I have “my” money. Our money is getting tight, but my money seems to be just fine. There will be no rescue when our money runs out, maybe we’ll sell her car instead.
Now, I’ve come to the conclusion that she will never get a job or at least not a job that challenges her skills, so it will likely be a poorly paid position that she will resent me for. She already resents that I keep asking her about how the career search is going. So its too late, she has spent so much time out of the workforce that no one would hire her for anything that would support her at a standard she expects. The jobs out there that require no skills are ones that she doesn’t want, so its a perfect symmetry: wants but can’t do, can do but doesn’t want. There it is, the dear wife has figured out a way to play with dogs all day while the sucker, me, her husband, works to pay the bills.
So act now T.A. don’t fall into the time trap. Tell your wife you’re thinking about quitting your job and starting a company and when the kids are in school, she will need to support the family while you start a business from home. Tell her everything she wants to do, you can’t afford. Tell her that you want equity in your relationship and part of that is her helping to support the family financially. Tell her to be a strong female role model for your two children that you need her to set an example. Tell her your truth.
Hallelujah Brother!!!! So much like my ex relationship. I am newly out – yay! I tried every one of those ways to get her to do her part.
I even tried this: “commanding my wife to get off her lazy ass and get a job with the passion of a Mussolini speech” – LOL didn’t work.
I regret wasting so much time.
I am very poor now, but there is light at the end of the tunnel.
If I find a spare “get out of marriage free” card lying around I’ll send one your way.
Congrats on finding a way out!
http://www.oprah.com/relationships/Ten-Signs-You-Should-Leave-Your-Man-Relationship-Advice/5
The part about the man being “liberated” kills me. Quits his job….etc etc…..It really hurts my spirit reading this stuff. Woman feel justified (almost happy) dumping men for far less than what I endure. “Throw his lazy ass out.”
Again, if i were to spend my days like my wife does rescuing animals, I would be institutionalized.
I love the double standards all around us.
The dear wife was talking about a in-law wife of a relative not long ago, and she just doesnt like this lady and her comment was “and she just stays at home all day”. This was after making a few other catty comments, which is pretty rare for my wife, but still this other woman is pretty hard to like.
I was a little stunned at the comment. So I said, “seriously? You are faulting her for just staying at home all day, how is that different from what you do?”
It was like the comment just flowed out without any thought, kinda like “she’s fat, ugly, buck toothed and stays at home all day”, it was all part of the same stream.
The clarification was that _she_ stays at home all day and buys overpriced shoes on the internet and _I_ don’t do that.
Click, gotcha, meaning clear! Double standard confirmed.
Man leaves woman: man is clearly cheating on the saint who bore him children.
Woman leaves man: man is clearly an abusive cretin who didn’t deserve her liberated spirit
It all makes sense to me.
I’m right there with you. I’ve had that conversation of “what if I didn’t have a job and stayed at home all day?” The only answer I’ve ever been given is that I would never do that. Kind of the best tautological ever argument given, I wouldn’t stay at home and not have a job because I don’t not have a job and don’t stay at home.
Well, lets just say that if the winning lottery ticket finds its way to my pocket we’ll cross that bridge. Since the real answer is that I can’t afford to do that.
Its not a “male” or “female” character that provides for his house its a rational character.
There is what I would want to do: fly a p-51 mustang
There is what I could afford to do: drive a fast car
There is what I actually do: drive a reliable car to work so I can pay the rent
Give me a trust fund and I’d find a suitably inane hobby that wastes my time too, and probably get above 500mph in the process.
Wow. I am not the only one.
20+ years. Single earner. Deeply in debt. Lost our home because I lost my job and we had no financial safety net. I get screwed at work, but I don’t have many options so I need to suck it up.
She has a college degree, but she just won’t help financially, even for just a while to help us get back out of hole.
>>The way for us to be fine is for me to work until I’m dead<<
Exactly how I feel. Trapped.
If there is ironey, my wife traps feral cats and alters them as my contibution to the planet. She does it and I underwrite it all. A nuiance wasted on her competely.
My wife is actually a master at trapping things, cutting their balls off. and then turning them loose. She needs no on the job training.
I feel like a porkchop at a Jewish wedding.
I’m at the point I need some legal feedback.
In the state of California am I looking at spousal support forever if the dear wife didn’t find another sugar daddy to burrow into?
Marriage of 18 years, no kids, house in joint names, but really owned by the mortgage company that I pay each month, I have retirement savings she has almost nothing.
If we split it all down the middle, I’d be screwed, she’d make out nicely, particularly if I got the privilege of paying for her standard of living forever.
And yes, I do realize that asking for legal advice anonymously on the internets is probably not my best move, I’ll talk with a lawyer as well.
Just wanted to see if there was any experience out there with such matters, what folks have seen in the trenches.
Get thy self to a good attorney.
Best to get a lawyer involved now. Talk to a few of the best in your area. That will prevent her from using them herself.
Get all documents out of the house, or copied. Deed, birth certificates, passports…..all of it. Tax returns, bank statements. Take copies of her documents as well. Never know what is lerking out there.
Also, buy a voice activated recorder in case she gets crazy. She will try to have a restraining order if you decide for financial reasons to stay. It’s in the woman’s divorce handbook. Lesson 101. Domestic violence is not looked at kindly in this matters and it is so easy for a woman to cry wolf.
I’ll be praying for you brother
So many sad, tragic stories….
Wow! I thought my situation was bad. I’m kinda going through the same thing, but my prayers are with everyone who have it much worse. I can’t imagine what it must be like.
Frances
It would not be totally self serving of me to thank you for a voice from the real world. Sharing in a marriage or relationship was what I bought into. A busy and wildly succesful college student and a husband moving up slowly but steadly in the business world.
Much celebrating at graduation with high honors. Proud and ready to step ahead…….Crickets………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………Fast forward a year………………….A child………………………………………………..fast forward two years another healthy child……………………Fast forward 15 years…………. two healthy young men 18 and 16 and a wife who rescues animals all the live long day. One income. A paid off house. No debt and a husband who is mentally toast and has health issues. A wife who crys about feeling lonely. Inlaws who dispise me for not doing more for MY BOYS.
I’m glad to have met you on this site. You give me hope I have not gone completely insane.
Yep….but we put up with it. It’s like waiting 21 years is not enough…….I beleive it will get better…….
Imagine though (here I go again) I stayed home for 21 years and for the last 4 did animal rescue. Now, before anyone thinks this is pulling poor cats out of a tree or kittens from the sewer, get a load of this.
My wife and her kabal of nut cases set traps behind grocery stores. Restaurants and in large fields known to have these feral critters.
They capture these wild frigging cats, have them fixed, and return them into the wild. If they find kittens, threy adopt them….that’s not so bad.
The feral cat capture stuff is like pushing a turd up a rope with toothpicks. Keeps her busy though!
The opportunity cost to our family are beyond discription. One son in trouble at a $150 K boarding school, the other in a private high school. Yet, she keeps on keeping on, and I have epilepsey……….In the meantime EVERYONE loves my wife. She is nice, helpful, cheerful, and looked up to you. I on the other hand am a verbally abusive monster…..
How dare I work for a living and not be there for my two boys…..People, a very close friend of mine put it this way becasue I take everything so personal, the attacks by her family and all. he said “If you didn’t feel as bad as you do I would worry about you.”
Just an update. In keeping with the spirit of maintaining healthy boundries, I gave my wife a written list of 5 things that must happen by July 5th of this year. #1: A job working no less than 20 hours per week. #2: Since I turned over the bills and such to her two years ago, (after all the years of whinning) she has turned it upside down. Paid two bills (my name) late. She must get these financial reponsibilities in order. As an aside, she did me a favor and had the late fees removed then got PO at me for being upset in the first place. What a beast I am……All her hard work lying her ass off to some customer service rep. Hearing her in action was illuminating. She was proud…..I am now a believer she is an accomplished BS artist. #3:She will fund (100%) her “hobby” she calls it…..
#4: The salary she makes goes into THE FAMILY checking account (she has always maintained her own personal account) #5: She will remove my name off the cell phone, get her own account or cancel the service all to gether.
I could care less if she does them. My guess is she will make a half ass effort at a job hunt and forget all the others….this is her MO from day one. Like my boss, I will send her reminders every two weeks. (I gave her the list of 5 things in an email). Tough crap! I want no surprises.
They are boundries, not demands. Set the boundry and walk away. If I hound her, that is manipulation. Won’t waste my breath.
July 5th? 90 days after my son turns 18 and I can simply refuse paying any more of his boarding school tuition. Get this. After going through detox. police at my house. Dealing drugs from my basement window like Jack in the Box, a gun, and blowing over $150 K to “save” him. He wants to apply to a few private colleges……..Guess he learned at the foot of the master moocher?
My arms are folded. My mouth shut and one word. NO.
http://www.oprah.com/relationships/Relationship-Advice-How-to-Handle-a-Breakup/2
I can’t get enough of reading this abuse. So sad!
Im going through the problem with my wife. When you said it my come from problems with her parents, it was like you were looking into my life. She wants to be the boss but dont want to work. That has driven a wedge between us. Im starting to really hate her. And she wonders why i have a wall up with her. What can i do?
A counselor I am seeing put it this way. She had these problems WAY before she met you. My biggest problem DAY ONE was her lack of drive to work. Lack of drive to even look for a job.
Then to have all my hard work literally thrown back in my face…….How am I coping lately? I just refuse to engage. I tell her “I” don’t have cash lying around to do this, or that. Then I drop it. Hard for me to do, but in many ways empowering because I think it obvious what the result would be if she crossed that line.
My friends call me St. Thomas. I have recently reached out to many of my old freinds and I don’t think she’s so keen on that. Too f’ing bad!
My family; unlike hers, support but don’t butt in. Everyone suggests I leave, I’m thinking of maybe renting a house at the shore for a few weeks if the situation with my son blows apart again.
It’s no way to live, but I am building a support system back around me so I feel comfortable. People I trust. I made her family mine, and they have all stabbed me in the back. Blood is thicker, but I really have zero use for any of them. In fact, none of them are too high on work. They come from the school of “the money always comes” groups. They have actually told me this. I worry too much about money. What a laugh! Somebody has to……..
Imagine. A 46 year old woman with a college degree with one boy away from home and the other a Jr. in HS rescuing animals all weeks and double time on weekends……I would be committeed……
Life is not fair, but I’m through letting her family or her rent space in my head. I do what I have to do to get what we need. If she has an easier way to do that, she could have said so years ago.
You don’t hate your wife. You resent her. Much more corosive over time. It hurts. Its demorlaizing. It makes your life a prison……….
I get it. Hang in there. Opportunities will present themselves to have peace of mind and emotional safety.
It’s good that you’re building a support system. I think it will be important for when/if you finally leave your situation.
It’s pathetic to think of a grown woman with a college degree and basically grown kids who doesn’t want to get a freaking job. I work full time as of this week (three new clients, yay for me!) and I also find time to volunteer at a woman’s shelter over an hour away from my house in the Bronx. She should be ashamed of herself.
I have told her in just such terms the same thing. It’s disgraceful and abusive not only to me, but our family. Especially in a time of crisis.
She has made it known (I’ve seen this before) she is hauling out her resume box of information which has literally been collecting dust in our attic. She is applying for state jobs that have nothing whatsoever to do with her education. From what I gather these are postings for internal jobs which by State regulation they must post. NOBODY is hiring new employees in the private sector. As far as public jobs and teachers (she is a trained science teacher) they are laying them off left and right for budget reasons.
My position is to just stand still and take care of the only two people in our home who get up every day and do what we are supposed to do. I am so angry and have been for years, but raging about it only feeds into her apathy.
She goes to a therapist who I suspect has diagnosed me as a whack job. An angry abusive man a la Oprah re runs. The deck is stacked, so standing still shines the light back on her behavior. She is such a nice pleasing person from the outside (she’s a great Mom, but simply structured our boys activities to the point of OCD) Uber Mom.
I get what she is about, and even if the world does not see it, that’s ok.
She has issues that were there WAY before me. It’s heart breaking to me that she shows all this attention and love outward, but simply treats me like shit.
I feel most comfortible doing other things, and (God help me) I don’t do things for her that I take joy in. I just won’t let her manipulate me through her abusive passive agressive behavior.
I’m so sad.
Last comment.
Do the woman at the shelter you volunteer at work? What if any refuse to work or demonstrate a willingness to do so?
It seems to me that men who want (insist) their partners work are portrayed as “abusive.” Do you see a lot of mentally scared woman who are verbally abused because they refuse to work?
Just curious. I see woman’s shelters as a place where woman go who fear for their lives. Is that a sterotype on my part?
All of the women who volunteer with me work. Most of them are from the neighborhood and barely makes ends meet, but still come there after doing a full week of work because they want to help the community. Most of them were in similar situations and managed to improve their lives.
You can’t imagine the horrors I’ve seen there. These aren’t spoiled upper middle class housewives who complain about their “abusive” husbands forcing them to get a job and be useful to society. I’ve seem women who have third degree burns on their faces because their partners threw hot oil on them in a fit of rage. I’ve seen women who have been beaten so badly they have to get reconstructive surgery. I’ve also seen children (including infants) who have been given similar treatment. A few years ago a woman in another part of the city was set on fire by her partner until she burned to death in the middle of the street.
The vast majority of the women who come to the shelter I volunteer at also work. In that area working isn’t a choice. Maybe it’s because I grew up in a rough neighborhood and I had a shitty childhood, but I can’t imagine sitting around and expecting a man to care for you without any effort on my part. So no, you’re opinions about women’s shelters are 100% correct. If a woman like your wife tried to get “help” for her “situation” in the system she would be laughed out of the building.
My advice to you is to leave this woman, even if it’s costly, because it’s costing you more right now emotionally. Find a woman who cares enough about a relationship with you to want to bring something to the table, or better yet, find a woman who has enough self respect to want to be more than a wife and SAHM forever. I know as a feminist I’m not supposed to judge other women who choose that path, but OI can’t help it, I do I judge them hard.
It’s amazing to me that my wife would even suggest abuse (verbal abuse) when all I wanted was for her to do what ALL the woman I work with do which is contribute to our family. The excuse THEN was she said she would then be responsible for everything. Meaning earning a living and taking 100% of the rearing. I always considered that her way of excuding me.
Worst yet. Work 50+ hours a week and cook and clean. I CLEAN TOILETS. I DO WASH. + I pay ALL THE BILLS while the $175/ week she made baby sitting a neighbors child (while both their parents worked) went into HER bank account.
The opportunity cost to me was overwhelming. i could not fund my 401K because I simply needed the cash to live on. The vast untapped resource has been without question…..just NUTS!
Am I angry? YES. Have i said things i regret? YES. However, I’ve done everything i was supposed to do FOR YEARS and have taken nothing but flack for it. From her, her family and freinds. The therapist I am seeing says everything everyone has suggested….get a lawyer and protect yourself.
I’m still in love with the idea of being in love. She distances herself from me to become “her own person.” “To live her truth.” Truth? I know plenty of truthful people who are complete BAT SHIT! This is Oprah skull f’ing and magazine, bumper sticker logic…..
I’ve also known woman with broken jaws, noses, teeth. i called the police one day on the boyfreind of one of my employees who was battered and being stalked right outside our office.
I never promised, bought or agreed to take care of anyone’s rose garden.
I went for the “shit or bust” strategy. I was working (still am) in a high-stress job and had also taken on a second, night-work, job. I was like a zombie. In the end, I saw my wife’s point of view. She didn’t want to work. Nor did I, I realised. She saw her role as a full-time housewife. Fair enough. I saw mine as that of full-time househusband. Plenty of building / rennovation projects to keep me busy for a couple of years on our home. So I gave my notice in. Packed in work. Well, one of the jobs anyway. I had the option to return to the main job, but no reason to tell her that.
No idea how we would pay our bills, but if she wasn’t worrying about that, well, great stuff. Nor would I. Her animal rights hobby and my local history research hobby (which I’d had to abandon when I was working silly hours a week) would see us through. No worries. And we could both be fulfilled by following our lifestyle choices. Surely this could only improve our relationship.
So the paychecks stopped hitting the account and, quite literally, the cupboards became bare. Second car didn’t get repaired when it developed problems. Utility payments stopped. Internet access had to go. Etc, etc.
Within three months, she left me. Then I re-started my main job (i’m in a fairly specialised role and was able to negotiate an open-ended leave of absence of up to 6 months. Even organised the cover myself).
Happy days.
Bravo!!!!
You have nerves of steel. I could have never done what you had the guts to actually do. I really have to hand it to you to live the hypocrisy. Of course she left lickty split!!!
I have to ask a few questions. When you asked your wife to work and cut down on your nervous exhaustion in progress, was her answer silence? Did she have a plan or was it the Mexican standoff? Did she shovel the guilt manipulation at you?
I can assure you (for me anyway) it never ends. The entitlement is so ingrained it’s almost invisible……and it’s taken me awhile to stand back. The word no is actually a whole sentence. Amazing, but I’m still tugged to fix her problems, and feel like the king of the world when she pretends to pay attention to me whatsoever.
I hope you are relieved?
Good wishes,
Tom
This post is so hilarious! Whoever wrote it has no clue that some women choose to make their life to be the keepers of the home. Feminism is good and all that, but just because you can go out and get a job next to a man doesn’t mean you have to. Feminist propaganda pushed women into the workplace until they didn’t have a choice. What about the woman who went to school a earned a degree but could not find a job in her field and ended up working in customer service? In call centers? Where she went in at 7:30 am until 7pm mandatory overtime call after call getting yelled at and called out of her name? Getting bullied by Alpha feminist women who made her go home in tears while driving home? And when she got home she still had to pick up her daughter from daycare and cook dinner and clean. For years I was that woman both my husband and I worked full time I was out of my house for 11 or 12 hours. I was at first picking up and cleaning and only sleeping a couple of hours not getting much time off not resting not sleeping well. By 32 I looked hagered. By 35 I wanted to go to sleep and never wake up.I hated my life. I cried myself to sleep every night my degree was collecting dust. I prayed. This went on for about 8 years. Suddenly my husband and I came into money. It was a lot of money. Suddenly he started a business. It made a lot of money in a couple of years. And not long after that we where moving into a bigger house on top of the hill looking over the ocean. Now he is in charge of the business I am not involved, I am the keeper of the home. I wake up when I want, I go shopping, I go to the spa, I go to the gym. I ran into a woman I used to work with at the call center when I was at the market one evening, she was running frantic like I used to, she said she could hardly recognize me because I looked so young and healthy. That to me is feminism and having it all! SO SUCK ON THAT!!!
So you live off of your husband’s hard work and spend your days shopping and at the spa. You should be ashamed.
No one is saying that women should work slave labor jobs if they can’t find a suitable job for their experience and education. Hell, no one here is saying that every woman should have to work, especially when they have young children at home. The point is that if you enter into a partnership where you AGREE to put in your fair share, and then turn around and refuse to work, then you are wrong.
What are you going to do when your successful husband trades up for a younger version of you and you are left with little to no valuable work experience? I wouldn’t hire some pampered housewife. You sound pathetic. By the way, if you couldn’t find a better job than at a call center, even with a degree, then you probably aren’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.
“Lighten up Frances”
Hey. I always say that this type of charmed life is without a doubt a very envious position to be in. Sounds like you appreciate, to some degree, what it takes to “want” to go to work. “Want” meaning you want to eat, keep the lights on. Pay car insurance. gas, etc…..
You were fortunate to step in it. Good for you all. I imagine your husband appreciates the position you are all in which allows you the choices you seem to be enjoying.
I hope your good fortune enriches everyone’s life.
Not to be snarky, but I hope this will give you the opportunity to find something meaningful to do with your education, and MOST important, something you really like to do.
I hope your husband does not find this site to vent like the rest of us who just want some level of equality in our relationships. In many of the posts (you have read) you might want to consider how you felt going to a job you hated and having no practical or economic way to choose a different path.
In my life we currently do not need money. One of my issues is I did not promise, agree to buy or take care of everyone’s rose garden. If your husband is ok with it there is no problem, my wish for you is you don’t get bored and end up resenting him or accusing him for being controlling. I know very wealthy people who tell me the hardest work is getting up in the morning and finding meaning.
Wish you the best.
And if he isn’t okay with it, I hope he has one helluva ironclad pre-nuptial agreement.
Seems like she thinks work is for suckers, which makes her husband a sucker in her eyes. Wonder if she tells her husband to “Suck on that” while dashing between spa appointments?
Sounds like there are no children. Good for you is right. My wife (i’ve posted before) is into animal rescue BIG TIME. Both boys are in private school and she does her frugal game as cover while she does what she “wants.”
College coming? Kick that can down the road! ……..Her family tell me “You know her. Saving the world.” Last time I looked, we are all living on earth. If we were to reverse rolls, or if i went for broke, I would be institutionalized, medicated, and given extensive ECT……What would cause a college educated man to do that???? 🙂
Marriage counseling. Individual counseling….on and on. Her therapist has loaded her up with all sorts of “coping skills” to blunt my frustration and keep her on her entitlement path she calls her “truth.” Any suggestions?
I quit my job at the beginning of the year. The main reason, I’m tired of doing the same thing for over 14 years and not being shown respect and gratitude at home from my wife.
I was able to pay off two cars, get a mortgage on a home in a nice neighborhood. BTW, the mortgage has 14 more years to go at a fixed rate below 4%. I’m paying for another car, that has two years to be paid off. We had over $10,000 in savings at the beginning of the year. No debt besides the mortgage and the two year car payments.
Most people would be happy to be in this situation. Not my wife, even though she obtained a BA and later a graduate certificate from a prestigious private school, she won’t work.
We had one child for about seven years, until we had our second, then because of stupidity in my part, 5 years later we had our third child.
She says she needs to stay at home to to take care of the kids. But even when she had time in between children, she’d not help me out financially. About a year ago she came up with the idea of homeschooling our older child (high school). The other one still goes to elementary, and the youngest stays at home of course.
When I was employed, she’d tell that so and so went to Europe, or skiing, etc.
We’ve been to Disney World twice, road trips to Canada and Mexico, more than once for each country. We’ve visited caverns and historical sites near our area. But I guess this was not enough.
She calls me a jerk often, whe she doesn’t get her way. She rarely acknowledges, the fact that I prepare breakfast for the kids almost everyday, and helping washing the dishes.
When I said we had to cancel our gym membership and stopped church donations, she got really upset.
I love my kids very much, but I just feel so depressed and discouraged.
Any advice from anyone would be appreciated.
Just stay close to your children. the last blow will be telling you that you work too much and you are not “present” for your children. Those mind games nearly did me in. If we had a disagreement, she clings to the children like euber Mom. Freezes you out, silent treatment, no sex, moody, until you cave.
You realize home schoolers have clubs and trips with other parents? My wife and our son went skiing a few days a week in the winter…….not a bad deal.
The opportunity cost of her not using her degree is HUGE! You could afford a very good private school that will help your children grow emotionally in a more structured setting.
Don’t let her weaponise those kids. Ultimate manipulation when you can’t be in two places at once. Especially when you get burned out at your job for 30 years and have no second income to loosen the tension.
We have zero debt and she acts (actually said) I should not worry too much about money because “it always comes.” A frigging child! It’s insulting and dismissive that her opinion of what I do is some sort of “magic.”
Home school???????? Brother….You are in for the long haul my friend. The concept is good in many respects if you have the means, but it will be tough on you for a very long time. Like I said, stay close to those children. If you loose that relationship you will end up like me….odd man out all the time. The guilt trips are mind numbing, hurtful beyond discription, and the ultimate control over you. You think you feel resentful now? Just wait for discussions about colleges, cars, insurance, tap dance lessons. All of it.
I wrote and juggled the finances and was eventually told I was too controlling. Then when I gave her the checkbook, my 820 FICO score took a hit here and there becasue she didn’t have time to learn online banking and didn’t have a stamp. Or it got lost in her sun visor in the car…….there is always plenty bof cash in HER checking account though. That’s right. She has her own checking which is HER money……On and on. Great Mom….No doubt about it. Terrible communicator, lousey friend and partner. As long as I go to work and shut the F up, all is well.
If I disagree I am verbally abusive, if I don’t engage and just go along I’m withdrawn and not present. I married an emotionally Daddy issues car wreck!
Good luck.
tomg, thanks for the advice and for sharing your experiences.
I think a lot has to do with religion also. She takes very seriously all the religion doctrine and church related activities. I stopped watching TV on Sundays about three years ago, because “it’s breaking the sabbath” and “sets a bad example for the kids”. She has complained about me doing the lawn and washing the cars on Sunday also. “Bad example for our kids and neighbors”. Now, that there’s no TV on Sundays there’s a lot of time to fill, and she wants me to do church stuff with the kids. She also gets upset if I take the kids for a walk on Sunday. BTW, we spent about three hours on church most Sundays.
I don’t know what else she wants from me, I don’t use profanity at all, drink, smoke or do drugs. I’m physically fit and in good shape. I take the kids for nature walks or to the neighborhood playground at least once a week.
I have never raised my voice against her, and I don’t believe in any type of violence. On the other hand, when she gets upset with me, she screams, slams doors and cabinets, and curses/swears at me. Once, she even snapped at one of our kids, she used the F word against our child (and this is the middle child, not the oldest one). I don’t know, but it might be related to her having her period or something concerning hormones when these episodes occur. Then, she’s all happy as if nothing had happened.
Regarding our intimate “relations”, if we had one this year, that would be a lot. In the past, when they did happen, I always had to start the foreplay and she would just lay back and let me do all the work. I don’t think a have to go into further details, because there are none.
Maybe, if I had had something to look forward coming back from work when I was employed, that would have motivated me to keep going, but most of the time dinner was late, the house unkept, and no sensual incentive.
I have no other choice but to wait until the kids are old enough to take care of themselves. I know I have to do it for our children, that’s my only motivation to continue living this type of life. During this time off, I’ve been preparing breakfast, not just cold cereal (french toast, eggs, etc), doing the school shuttle for our elementary school child, helping cleaning the kitchen, washing dishes, and buying groceries when needed. It’s actually pretty simple and relaxing doing these chores. Whenever I can, I take our youngest child with me so my wife will have no interruption doing the homeschooling with our high school age child.
Just recently, I decided to use our funds for retirement until I find another job or when she decides to start working. She said “you’re going to use our retirement money?”, I replied, “yes, until I find another job! Otherwise, where are we going to get the money from?”
I’m doing this, because I don’t really care that much anymore about a financial future if she doesn’t care either. Hopefully, this will be a wake up call for her!
Sorry for the rambling, but I had to vent all these emotions, because I have no one else I can confide in. Even some people at work would tell me that I looked lonely for some reason.
I’m glad I found this website; now I know that I’m not alone, there are other husbands going through similar or worst circumstances, and I empathize with you.
If anyone would still help me with some words of encouragement, I’d really appreciate it. I don’t want to do anything stupid (like getting a life insurance policy, and then having a self inflicted fatal accident; this way my kids will be taken care of, at least financially).
Hi There.
Wow. You have guts for stepping back and financially standing still. Staying close to your children is what it’s all about. I did not have that opportunity with the type of work I do. It’s stressful and requires a lot of focus, and ass kissing to stay ahead of the curve. No half ass effort works and that is just the way it is.
Man, your wife sounds like a cure for happiness. A few years ago I made a mistake and listened to one of those GD woman talk in shows. A woman was working full time and her husband had lost his job just as the economy tanked. She tearfully admitted that although he was a very good man she had lost all respect for him because he was not working. Gotta tell ya, I cried! If she were out of work society accepts it and gives her credit for taking care of the house. Like it was her choice all along. Long end short, men are castrated if visited upon by misfortune. I heard the nickle drop…..The deck is stacked.
A freind of my wife admitted to her that she was frustrated that her husband (a very free spirited science teacher) was not focused enough on money. She worked part time to fill in the gaps. So, there you have it! If we worry about money and focus on doing the right things, we are judged as being “absent.” If we lay back and take one day at a time “staying in the present” we are loafers.
A man taking “nature walks?” Using retirement money to make ends meet? I feel your pain.
I could stand in the corner on my head with both hands in my pockets and my wife could care less.
Our son is in a rehab type boarding school and my youngest in private school. $9 K/ month and she saves cats all day long…..The oldest in boarding school turns 18 Thursday. I made it clear (zero emotion) that he is on his own finacially and if she wants all these good things for him (a private college no less) both of them need jobs to make those dreams come true. I’m done. She whipped out her dusty resume this weekend and sent out one (1) package. Too late…..Her MO is sucking me into these dreams with promises to contribute…..Not this time. My son has to pay his first semester of Community College and if he does well, I MIGHT consider helping him for the next if I (in my opinion only) feel he deserves it. No more handouts! Time for the adults to take back control.
They are all (her family and her) are at his boarding school this week for spring break, which is more my spring break. I stayed behind.
In my case my wife will not work and every nickle will go to our lifestyle while she takes care of cats. My only choice it to leave, but my youngest son is just terrific.
Again, I give you credit for putting somewhat of an end to your abuse, but at least your wife works. I wish you the best, and just let your feelings fly.
Warm Regards
tomg,
Thanks for replying again. Where did you get the impression that my wife works? If you consider homeschooling a teenager work, I guess that would be it, but my wife doesn’t get paid for it. All property tax for the school district are going to waste; we don’t get any money back from the school district or any kind of support in regards to textbooks or teaching materials. Guess who has to pay for all that entails high school level homeschooling? Bingo, that would be me!
I’m still holding out with the savings and retirement, it’s a wait and see situation.
I wish I had a time machine, go back in time, and never had married. Marriage it’s a way to enslave mostly men into a type of lifestyle that is extremely difficult to get out once you’re in.
Once again, I have no choice but to stay put, divorce would bring more problems in all aspects (children, finances, property, etc)
Sounds like you are LDS..I am as well and going through the same situation. The culture promotes this. I am in the same boat as you.
Can’t figure if I’m on foot or horseback at the moment. Wife went from friendly mediation to hiring a schlock man killer attorney fro 0 to 60 in .2 seconds. Now she refuses to talk to me at all. These legal bills are going to break me. LDS? I’m in a fog. What’s that?
I could use some advice here. We are living together, hired attorneys, and nobody has filed yet until they see my case information statement listing where all the cash, stocks, etc are are worth and what we owe. We own a home free and clear. Vehicles, and a pretty good size 410K. I inherited a pile several years back which my operation of law is not part of equitable distribution (some good news)
She has mort worked. Has a BS (magna cum laude) and is a licensed teacher who never worked a frigging day. Home school, the whole routine. Now one is away in college, and the other attends private high school. So the wife is free from 6:30am until 4:30 pm. now, as part of her divorce, she volunteers to tell me she has had, or will plan an affaire with a man she has known for 6 years (way too much information). She told me with a smile on her face�I swear to God, and then every subsequent conversation thereafter. She even apologized for ding so and said she had no idea why she was doing it. I was SUPER cool and told her I was grateful she told me art least.
She tells me she’sms not told her family yet, so I think there is clearly a part two with this accouncement. God can only guess . So nos I have started loin for housing, but can’t until I know what alimony I am going to get saddled with for the rest of our lives�.I tried to have that conversation one night and she became angry and warned me that she was going to make things really bad for me if I didn’t stop harassing her�.I just walked away. Next day I invested in a voice activated recorder to memorialize her crazy making. First thing was getting her to talk about her love interest.
People, I put my food down, and I’m now going to get rapped in court. I know it, My attorney hugged me after our first big meeting and told me that I had done everything just perfect setting up for the future ALONE. She told me to buy a car or take a trip before parties filed.My epilepsy is off the charts again. I’m toast
Yes….It’s all a $hit sandwich for men to eat. I don’t know why I thought she was working….Your situation sounds terrible. It’s a “follow me to the bottom” senario. I would not count on any bounce from her when you eventually hit bottom. My wife thinks the “money will always come.” She also told me “that’s what family is for.” Who’s family?
I paid for my wedding because her parents are financial noodleheads. My parents and family are savers, professionals. I will NEVER beg my family for a dime, but being an artist on brinksmanship, she is trained herself to become silent, stand still, and getting what she wants anyway. Meaning, she knows I will do anything to keep our family afloat and then uses my resentment as a bat to beat me over the head. A bat I PAY FOR!
My family minds their own business, but see things clearly now. They all have said on one level or another that she is out of touch. I think it worth repeating that if the roles were reversed I would have been insititutionlized (sp) years ago. I can’t drink because of my seizure disorder, so my Doc. gave me Ativan as a seizure emergency source, but it also helps when I pull into my driveway or sleep once in awhile. Gotta do what I gotta do. My seizure triggers are stress and lack of sleep. This time last year I was down to 125 pounds (I’m 5 ft 6) and did’nt notice how bad i looked until somebody asked me if I had cancer.
She could give a rusty crap. I drive 1 hour each way to work and have pulled over too many times to recall. I made a transition in Meds. last year and was unable to drive for a month. Period.
She stepped up and voluntered to drive. Within a week she was telling me tuesdays and Thursdays were “tough” for her, so a very good freind helped me out for a month.
Regreting marriage? OH YEAH! If I could walk out my door and have no ties with her, I’d been gone long ago. So, I hang in there. When the kids are gone it is abundently clear she will take off and live on direct deposit in her account to live a well deserved very long and healthy life.
Be well
tomg,
I’ve been reading your posts, and I can’t imagine what you’re going through. That stuff about saving the animals your wife does, your illness, your son, etc.
All I can say, is that you’ve gone above and beyond. If there s such thing as justice, I hope you get it some day.
One thing I won’t compromise is my health, if you think about it, when you take out of the equation absolutely everything around you (material possessions, family, even the clothes you’re wearing), the only thing left is you and your health. If you are not healthy, you’re already a part time dead man walking. Do everything within your power to care of your health. In my case, now that I’m unemployed, I’ve been jogging at least five days a week; I’ve been doing pull ups twice a week. Even though I’m over 40, I feel like I’m in the best shape of my life. Eat fruits and drink water, if you drink pop or eat fast food, keep it to once or twice a month. Believe me, you’ll notice the difference. I know, you got a lot in your plate, but try to make an effort to improve your health.
Regards
Thanks
I joined a gym two years ago as the nonsense level went up. I went 5-6 times a week. My in laws told me i was “trying to escape.” I know you get it. Tom takes care of himself, bad. My wife saving cats, good. The question is not if I am trying to escape (oh, I am) , but why. AND, my wife sees a therapist to deal with new “coping skills.” (I pay for that therapy as well).
I went to talk with somebody myself. After about 5 visits in he said that I was very angry, but told me “who wouldn’t be?” He is a marriage counselor, but went on to tell me to get legal advice as an “escape hatch.” My freinds call me Saint Thomas. Pretty funny.
My youngest son? He’s my life. He talks to me. “How you feeling Dad?” “How was your day?” “You look tired. You ok?” “Guess what happened to me today?” We share a special secret sense of humor. He is my reality that i can have a really good relationship with somebody under our roof. We just roll….no agendas. No secrets. No sense of entitlement. Polite, respectful…..smart. We do what we have to do every day while the other two enjoy their world view from their own asses.
You mentioned something about insurance. That scares me. Why? It’s gone through my mind as well. Not that I would do anything, but I wish i could just become invisible at times. “Any place but here.” I hate my job for the last 30 years. (a long story) and I can’t make a change because we can’t afford that transition. Liberating at times because I just remind myself i have no choices. Makes life easy at times.
I’m 52 and with the $ I shucked out for “Jr” my retirement has been set back 5 years. $150 K in the span of 9 months……mind numbing. Then my wife wants him to apply to colleges and for me to encourage him to do so. I refuse. He’s on his own. I’m not a mean guy, but with his issues college is the last place on earth he should be. I didn’t create his problems, I can’t contol it, and i can’t cure it.
Again, I keep reminding my wife that I did not promise, buy or agree to take care of other people’s rose gardens. I can help, but only if my values dictate. Only if I choose. Hence, her phony baloney one (1) resume being mailed this weekend. (Funny….she even asked me for a stamp….).
I was afraid for awhile (not of leaving) but that I was addicted to misery. That i like it. I was terrified she would leave me or serve papers. At this point, she can do what she pleases in that regard. Not much different than what she’s always done. An emotionally damaged child/woman with significant daddy issues. Lucky me. I’m 7 years older than her…..Should have see that one coming. Oh well.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathleen-kinmont/life-after-divorce_b_1478051.html
Nice article– I’ve been a divorce and adoption lawyer for 20 years. My wife is also a lawyer, graduated with honors, and just won’t get a job. Our kids are in their teens with one in college– I have grown so tired of carrying all the weight– not only financial– but I also am the primary parenting role– she goes to play tennis every night, while I am home making dinner for the kids, coaching their sports, etc.– then I go back to work in the evening for a couple hours. No matter how much I make, she spends it– I have made the very difficult choice to get divorced– never thought I would be in this position, but I have no partner.
I feel trapped and I am only 28 been married 5 years and my daugther is only 2 : (
Hi esqjeff44
You sound at peace with your decision. Our professions are stressful and require drive, focus and a very thick skin. I cannot control my wife and i can’t change her. I don’t want to, besides, who has time?
I’ve said this in several posts. If the roles were reversed we would have been tossed out long ago as loafers and moochers (or worse). In my wifes case, she does animal rescue, so if we switched our rolls i would be wearing a white jumpsuit and making pot holders at the Ha Ha Hotel years ago.
Was there a WTF moment, or did it all just fall into place one after the other? I ask because I am standing far back now and just watching and listening to her.
She is a good Mom and does all that heavy lifting, so it isn’t all bad. However, she blames me for everything that is not right in our family.
You sound very very tired. I hope you can respond and tell me more.
Regards
After reading your comments here for a long time now, I had a thought. If your wife were to suddenly wake up and realize how pathetic it is that she isn’t contributing, and she got a job (a real job) would this “fix” things or is t he damage already done?
I know you say she’s a good mother and that things aren’t all bad. Is that enough of a benefit that you would consider trying to repair things if she started making an effort? I ask because in my opinion, if this is something that you want to fix, I would suggest you get a different psychiatrist, because the one you described in earlier posts seems horribly partial to your wife. I have had excellent experiences with a great shrink. It’s the only reason my ex husband and i were able to split up so amicably. Having a good shrink to support you would be a huge help I think.
The question is dead on becasue I feel my anxiety reading it, or trying to answer it. Has the damage been done? Without a doubt.
Do I beleive in my heart of hearts she is just hanging on to hang on until she is ready to leave? Yes.
Pardon me, but we never have relations anymore. She rearly initiated in the first place, but it’s now me who is just not into it. It would be more like a release, and since I am not shallow, the disappointment is just not worth it. I’m actually in a better place most of the time ignoring her and simply not expecting anything so as not to be disappointed. I refuse to engage which is both very hard, but with practice also very liberating. Cerntainly no way to live.
I have many opportunities to stray. I have been presented these opportunities, but NEVER act on them although not having really been touched by a woman is such a long time is killing me since I am a passonate person. She is just not an adult and I really don’t know what she even expects.
Does it matter/
http://www.oprah.com/relationships/Perfect-Times-to-Tell-the-Truth-When-to-Tell-the-Truth/1
This is what woman really think? Can anyone seriously beleive any of this makes sense? I like the part about her husband being a lout and out of work too much.
It’s rigged for men. A no win….
Oprah is so annoying. I don’t know one woman besides my silly SAHM sister-in-law who likes Oprah. I guess that’s just the company I keep, lol.
I hope you manage to get out of this marriage with your dignity and your wallet intact. There are plenty of women out there who love their careers and laugh at women like your wife who fancy themselves a lady who lunches and volunteers. I would have slightly more respect for her if she at least volunteered for an AIDs charity or in Haiti (basically anything not involving cute kittens) but I question the reasoning behind what she does. It’s more for show than for genuine concern I bet.
Show and need. Emotionally unconnected to the world, which the last time I took noticed had our house connected to it. I work full time and provide everything, even when things were so tight it seemed impossible. Yet, it is me who is emotionally unavailble to my family. That frigging hurts the worst. She is off at the zoo, pumpkin picking, going to the beach with our boys while I did what I was supposed to do. Let’s just say she kept me at arms length (I feels that way).
She has always loved animals, or has needed to love animals. We all like to do things and find some connection with people doing so. The vast majority of the woman she pals around with rescuing cats are divorced and many look like abused animals themselves. The laugh of it is she thinks most of them are crazy people. She’s unhappy I can’t be who she wants, so she writes early on in or marriage (manybe 2 years) while we were on vacation that she wanted to throw a glass of wine in my face and end it then.In that situation I recollect I was recovering from food posioning, had worked all day, drove all the way (6 hours) to Cape Cod in traffic while stopping every 50 miles to crap my guts out. I was not talkative enough???????
What was I? Captain Stubing on the Love Boat? Give me a break……..
We all have our story lines and I am FAR from perfect, but I should have never accepted or took seriously her proposal to get married. On reflection, it was probably a manic moment for her and the see saw has gone on for 21 years.
I will have peace, and beleive it or not, I’m getting closer to the door.
Hi all,
I am a SAHM, have been for 13 years.
In response the the article, I will say that I think there are exceptions to the rule that wives should work. I think I am that exception. SAHM are not created equal. Some are motivated and industrious, some are selfish and lazy.
I have a BS in nursing and a law degree but if I went back to work, even as an attorney it is unlikely that my income could come close to my husband’s (he’s a physician). I could pull in perhaps 15-20% of what he makes. However, had I worked since we married, this is enough to have seriously padded our nest egg.
We have three kids, ages eight, nine and eleven. I am going to make a bold statement and say that no sitter could care for them like I do. Of course, like everyone else I make my fair share of mistakes but I feel like I have the heart and the brain to do the mom thing well…. why shouldn’t I be the one to carry out our plan?
I feel that no sitter could care or take the time to do what I do. I work so hard, I feel like I never sit down until the kids go to bed! For example, I am so very careful about their food. I fix most meals at home and we sit down as a family and eat together. This take time. Also, I only allow about one hour of TV per week. They have cd players but no other electronic devices, so I am on the hook for keeping them busy. We go for walks. We go to the library. We play tennis and golf. We swim. We read every day together, great literature that I hope will open their eyes to the marvels of our world. I supplement every aspect of their formal education. They all speak chinese, have been studying it since they were toddlers (and no, we are not chinese!);) The list could go on but you get it.
They all do exceptionally well in school and participate in TIP and AG programs. I believe their good academic performance is not by accident, rather it is because they have extremely enriched lives that their father and I am providing them. I am a well-educated women who has decided that my kids are the most important legacy I will leave this world. This child-raising period will be over in about ten years. Then I can feel good about finding a paying job.
You might ask what I do when the children are at school. During this time I plan meals, do laundry, run errands, walk the dog, clean my house (and yes, I do yoga three times a week):)
I love my life and am so proud of my kids…and deeply grateful for all my husband provides.
And, inspired by your stories of difficulty, I am going to make sure he knows it. Every. Single. Day.
Seems like you have designed a pretty perfect life with your kids.
I am curious, does your husband want you to work? Did you agree together that you would stay home?
I am only asking because to me it looks like you spent a lot of time here justifying your decision to stay home. And not much time describing how your husband feels about your situation.
That is to say almost all of your rhetoric is about you and the kids and very little about your husband except for what he provides for you – just sayin.
SAHM’s can, from what I can see outside of their closed doors, to take their responsibilities very seriously. No doubt about it, but there are men who make that all happen as providers who stay to themselves and still feel like furniture.
My question would be why a person with your pretty together life, be reading our pathetic post or on this web site at all?
Regards
Hey Tom, how about I up the ante. Mary says she is highly educated – an attorney. Would she hire an expert in child development to represent her in court? Then why does she think she would be best for raising her kids during the work hours of the day?
Yeah, I went there. The most sacred cow of SAHM types, i.e. “Nobody can take care of my kids as well as I can!” attitude.
Ever see the show Nanny 911 – lots of SAHM’s that are terrible at raising kids.
If there is an agreement beforehand that the Mom stays at home it is really none of my business or concern. But if the hubby gets blindsided by this after thinking that he married a career woman then shame on the wife for fraud.
You sound like you have your priorities in order. My wife home schooled our youngest and that worked out well, and like you exposed them to different structured activities (some they liked, others not, but at least they were exposed to them). My line of work is stressful, and during the years when things were very lean I could not make many mistakes – thus more time making myself indespensible (sp).
I never promised a rose garden. Your husband sounds like he is a good provider and not in need of additional resources to allow your children all this enrichment. I did the best i could, and since my wife has a very short memory, my recent success has exposed me to open blame that I was not emotionally there for them all. Duh…..I was working while she enriched our son’s lives. Why now the persecution by her and her whole family/ Our oldest son is in trouble and required us to remove him from our home (by force) into a wilderness/boarding school program that has stretched our financies to the limit. Youngest is 16 and oldest 18.
6 years ago I developed seizures which makes commuting by car two hours a day sometime life threatening for myself and the others on the road. She did not skip a beat and three years ago started in a huge way to rescue animals. BTW: we had at one point 60 (yes 60) cats at our home which required her full time. it’s not a question of me providing a living for the family, it became supporting (her words) her hobby. So, our family took a back seat while she did what she “wanted.” In the meantime I fell into her guilt trip and beleived I was in fact an absentee father. She continually told me that everything was about me and that I really didn’t care about their emotional wellbeing. THEN, I heard the nickel drop……All about me? The animal rescue “hobby” does NOTHING to enrich our family and is in fact all about her. She sought counseling to “cope” with her emotions, and now she is a very distant, and self assured assertive person who does not give a rusty “F” what my feelings are. Ah….psycotherapy and “O” Magazine…….Men will always come up way short on expressing our feelings. In fact, it is best if we have none. Go to work. Smile and bury emotions so deep……it’s that easy. No problems.
You sound like a very together person, and i am as sure as i can be about anything you would do whatever you could to help your husband to assure the stress of his health issues and anxiety were addressed. I also hear that you love your husband. I’ll leave you with that.
I’m happy you wrote back. Be well
Good post. I’ve often wondered why so many women who fought (rightly) for liberation want to make prostitutes and parasites of themselves. This is especially acute after separation. The lack of self-respect is something totally foreign to me, but I suppose when you incentivize parasitism through child support schemes, this is the result.
What can I do with my own daughter to make sure she does not take on the same personality disorder as her mother? My hope for her (which is the hope of all good dads) is that she be independent, healthy, compassionate, bright, and not have to rely financially on anyone.
Yes, it is a bad for all gender children to see what entitlement looks like. In my world the sad part is my wife has a billion ideas for our boys to find employment, and nags them to no end to work work work…..Makes me want to puke becasue of the “do as I say and not what I do” insanity.
If I dare go there and bring this up (even in an email, or a whisper) I am verbally abusive. It’s a complete no win with this emotional cripple. If i engage, it’s a bad thing. If I don’t she one ups and totally shuts down (with one eye over her shoulder watching my reactions). I think they call that emotional blackmail…..Maybe? Maybe not?
Again, she comes off like the nicest open and hard working person on the planet. Example: I stopped by the animal shelter she “works” at and a few of her co- “workers” needed to bring to my attention how hard she works…………….How fantastic is with cleaning and organizing. Again, I took it in stride and at the same time boiled over that this nonsense purely enriches her life and NOBODY elses. In other words, we should all be happy becasue she is.
I better not get going this morning. The 4th weekend was a total bust for me and I’m trying not to let it spill over into the day.
I get the SAHM idea. While the kids are small and not in school one parent staying home can be a good choice.
What I cannot get my head around is the idea that it can be a woman’s right to choose to pursue a career while it is a man’s obligation to support his family with a career and paycheck.
Can someone please explain the entitlement princess syndrome that causes a supposedly mature adult female without the excuse of children in the home to think that not having a paying job outside the home is both appropriate and expected?
I’m in the process of doing things that will result in the demise of my relationship of 18+ years with a college graduate female, who has pursued the career of sorting laundry. I’ve explained to her for near 20 years what I expect, and this comes as no surprise, but yet there is no observable action to change.
Yes, I’m a sucker. She duped me. I’ll probably pay spousal support for a “marriage of long duration” and being in a community property state, half is half. This is the equivalent of calling an artillery strike on your own position, but I can’t do it any more.
Words like freeloader, parasite and too many more less appropriate for even a PG-13 rating come to mind. But since she can’t explain to me how or why or even what she is thinking, I’d love to get a small peek into the neural chemistry of how this brain can think that she stays home and does 2 loads of laundry in 10 hours is the equivalent of me going to work and getting a paycheck?
Seriously, I’d love to know. Someone outline that thought process for me, explain all the mystery that is woman.
Joint financial account now separated to mine and ours, check.
Financial stress in joint accounts, check.
Talking to lawyer about options, check.
Calling in nuke strike on my position, dialing.
Too funny. I’m laughing with you BTW.
I hear you loud and clear. I’ve given up on asking, telling, yelling….all of it.
In my case my wife proclaims not to need me or anyone else.
So when the voice in her head changes to a kind, supportive and emotionally engaged partner, I know what’s next since the day before she has made plans with her family about vacations, etc……my answer (served up cold) is “You don’t need my permission.”
The first time I said that to her, her facial expression went blank and her head cocked to one side like a dog hearing a strange new sound. Then I said I wish i could go, but “we” simply don’t have that kind of cash to spend at the moment. It was priceless when she actually took money out of “her” account and paid for the trip.
Making plans without me cost her some serious $’s. Her choices, her dime. Again, she doesn’t need anybody.
Thanks for responding to my comment….mine is just one perspective out of many but I do feel it’s a valid one.
I didn’t write my comment to justify my staying home. I wanted to show that some moms are highly motivated to create exceptional kids through an exceptional home life. If you could find a sitter who could offer my kids what I can let me know….
I will say, I have an incredibly industrious and generous husband. He loves what he does (anesthesiologist) and doesn’t begrudge me for my time spent with our children. He knows that he reaps the reward of my labors with the kids. I think we feel like we are in this together, that we each have our role in the family.
My husband knows I am a hard worker. He tells our friends, “Mary has a harder job than I do.” When I got pregnant with our oldest son I was a part time RN and a full time law student. He asked me to stop working as a nurse. I actually resisted him for a while but ended up quitting the nursing job. I finished up the law degree, had my baby and have been home every since.
I think communication about the SAHM thing is important….if he ever began to feel resentful I would want to know! I don’t think marriages work if one partner feels used.
Tom, the animal thing with your wife is an excuse to emotionally check out of life with you and the family. My mom did and does the same thing. Neglected her family so she go out and save the animal kingdom. I think she has trust issues left over from her childhood so animals feel “safe” to her. Whatever your wife’s reasons are, there is no excuse for it. She needs to realize that one reaps what one sows…her cats are not going to be there for her in the end.
I just realized that I is a bit odd that I am at a men’s therapy website. I was directed here while trying to find info. on a particular psych disorder. Then I was pulled into this discussion and had to give my two cents! 🙂
Hi Mary
Nice to hear from a woman who seems to have her priorities in order. I feel pretty cheated that I married a person who I thought was going to build a life with me and not totally change in ways I never saw coming.
Needy? Childhood? OMG! You have no idea…………..There were signs, but not for one moment did I imagine I would be as unhappy as I am today.
I’m almost done trying to fix things or figure somebody out from the point of view of a therapist. We all have issues, it’s just a matter of what degree we express them.
I’ve got a good job as far as money goes, and i have made a lot of very good (lucky) decisions that have put our family on a comforible path. Truth is, I wanted to ditch my career in hopes that it would somehow make us closer. No other way to express this. I am just uncomfortible around my wife and our oldest son who are both expert at blaming others for their problems or challenges. Our youngest son gets up every day as do I, and we do what we are supposed to do. The other two save cats full time, and the other sells and smokes pot or spends so much energy thinking of ways to get high, or get over on people.
It’s never been part of my values and when I heard the nickle drop years ago I was right to question why i would stay in such and unhealthy relationship with essentially a child.
Trust me, she comes off like a baby seal on the ice to get what she wants, only now she is openly hostile toward me and feels pretty empowered doing that. It’s like payback for being a victim of my own success.
I’m just in a dead zone.
I am glad you wrote, and actually you give me hope.
Regards,
Tom
I am not someone who thinks divorce is an answer for most people but why not wait until the youngest goes to college and leave? Life is too short. And there are actually decent, caring people out there. Don’t give up hope in finding a measure of peace and happiness!
Thanks
That thought is very real. Frankly, I think it is also my wife’s plan as well. I don’t feel the love……I listen to all the Oprah top ten reasons, including verbal abuse (I guess explaining the facts of life is too much for her to process without getting uncomfortible).
I’m not present for my family. (this hurts the most…..I do what I am supposed to do and then must be responsible for everyone’s emotional needs as well?) You hit the nail on the head with your experience with your Mom. She is just out of touch and even a discussion on our goals and plans makes me feel unbalanced. She has no problems asking me what I am doing, and why. Yet when I inquire, I get answers such as “It’s none of your business….” Or worse, she says NOTHING.
Calling in an air strike on myself? You bet, but that is just part of our laws and culture. However, most of the people like me who moved on, all tell me the financial hits have been huge and the ongoing alimoney painful and unfair, but in the rear view mirror, was nessasary and worth it.
Every single counselor I or we have both seen together and alone agree that I have a hangup moving on and (as you said about your Mom) have childhood issues behind there embarrassingly and shameful behavior. He Dad died when she was 4 or 5 and that has SO messed up some of the children in that family. Her Mom had no Dad. Her Grandmother had no Dad….I’m 7 years older then my Wife….Ding Ding Ding…..I had a stable job and a bright future.
I’m getting upset rehasing, so I’ll just leave it alone. I am SO unhappy and uncomfortible being in my own home. I literally can’t stay too long in the same room, unless I engage her in conversation her cat business. then she lights up like a fire fly…..It’s pathetic!
So she was looking for her replacement Daddy and when you pushed for a more equal and meaningful relationship she becomes resentful and withdrew even further. This so reminds me of my parents. My dad worked so hard to please my mom….all of his energy went into supporting his family. My mom’s energy went into her animals (horses, dogs, cats, chickens….you name it). I spent time with them a few weeks ago (I see them just a few times a year) and I basically called my mom’s selfish behavior out to my dad. (He is spending his retirement supporting and caring for her menagerie of animals….and he himself is not an animal person). He looked at me with tears in his eyes and said, “Mary, you know….I married way above myself.” I felt so sorry for him. She has him convinced that he was lucky to get her! So in his mind that justifies her emotional detachment and indifference.
Mary
Wow! Sums it up. Everyone loves my wife. She is natural, granola eating, down to earth, helpful, and well meaning. So, I am a total AH for not just shutting my F’ing mouth. Goint to work, and NEVER express my feelings, frustrations, hopes, dreams….all of it.
The former marriage counselor we went to until she started seeing her individually, naturally pumped her up. So now she is a very assertive and manipulative natural wack job.
She shared nothing of her therapy. In fact she flat out refused. Again, none of my business……Then she tells me SHE can’t trust ME. Where did she get that?
I have detached from her emotionally and physically to stop her manipulation, and to just take a break from the tension of knowing when to hug her or night. Will she hug back, or stand still and frozen like I have nerve even breathing the same air she is.
Is your Mom moody? Does she do the emotional blackmail stuff? Any drinking?
The more I do not engage with her, the clearer I see her mood swings, contradictions, and pinpoint understanding of how and where my bottons are. The biggest one being silence and witholding information. Mary, your Dad’s tears speak to me.
No drinking….they are actually part of a religion that prohibits it. Does your wife have a problem with drinking? That certainly doesn’t help and may justify you further in terminating your relationship.
I don’t know how to even begin with my mom. She joined a radical religion (Mormonism) in her twenties, had seven kids and moved to a crumbling farmhouse in the middle of nowhere to escape her past. She enjoyed the “large family” status within the mormon community but had no interest in her children. Her animals always came and continue to come, first.
My dad didn’t go to college and worked 60 hours/week to support the family. My mother always acted superior to him (she held a bachelor’s degree). She prides herself on being bookish and smart but really does nothing of consequence. My six siblings are really low achievers…my husband and I the the most accomplished (by far) in this clan but she diminishes us because we are Presbyterian, not Mormon.
Believe me, it is a struggle to deal with selfish, dysfunctional people. My mom is loved by everyone who knows her except her children. (even my mormon siblings know she is really troubled). This type of woman looks so cool and together to other people. This is because her energies are going into “the outside” people, not the people she actually has deeply committed to and made promises to. Too much for her.
To illustrate….my parents have acquired new chickens and my kids love to collect the eggs. We were visiting a few weeks ago and my husband stated that we all were excited to have fresh eggs for breakfast my mom said no, her dogs and cats ate them with their food (the animals really do eat raw eggs with their food) and there wouldn’t be enough for the grandkids. Who does that?
I am sure that my high involvement with my kids has something to do with the fact that my own SAHM ignored me. I am reacting to my own dysfunctional childhood. I certainly am not perfect but understand the word commitment and know better than to stubbornly seek after my own satisfaction. I love tennis and became very involved last year (I can be very obsessive about achievement) My husband said he thought I was too involved and I listened….it was hard but I ended up quitting my ranked team…Now I just play recreationally. We all must give.
My mom is my weak link in this life. I admit that, and I struggle a lot with it. None of our lives are perfect but we need to decide what we can live with and what we can’t.
Mary
Thanks again. Yes, the animals rank, but she is used to commanding situations as did her Mom when she was growing up. Our two boys are a year apart, so on a Saturday morning they sometimes got themselves some cereal and watched a few shows while she nagged in the background to vaccume the house. Dust. Take out the trash, etc etc…
Since the boys really didn’t want to do it when she wanted to do it, the way she wanted it done, all hell would occasionally break lose and since they listened to me she would whip everyone into her act. Sometimes it would go on all day….I didn’t appreciate it, and i was damn to hell for not cracking the whip. it was like just one more example of what a failure I am as a Dad. A Dad she never had…..it’s complicated.
However, when she wanted something, the tone changed.
I feel like I’m more tolerated than appreciated. I still can’t fully explain the feelings.
Our oldest got caught up (got himself caught up) in drugs, dealing….all that crap. She basically put a gun to my head and with the help of her therapist, devised a plan to whip me into submission (shame on me for not taking that opportunity to open the door for her).
Short end. I spent $150 k on a wilderness program and a boarding school which I said before, during and after was going to be a farce and would result in him returning to our house and picking up where he left off. BINGO! I was right on all counts. However, he now beleives he is entitled to a four year college to “maybe” study history. His reasoning is teaches get the summers off and can retire after 20 years…………….So, his world view is he starts out at the end…..I wonder where he picked all that up? So, I have dug my heels in and keep reminding EVERYONE that I have reponsibility to our youngest son and protect him from drug dealing and all the other nonsense + protect myself. it’s up to the other two to get in the boat or not, and to row.
I’m in a place where it is really make or break. She can’t threaten me again. She can go if she pleases, but another part of my not engaging has to do with “vindictive and manipulative, spoiled woman 101” meaning phony restraining orders and such.
What a way to live….Right? BTW. The oldest who has all his issues, blames me for all of it. Flat out told me i was not a good Dad and that i didn’t meet his needs……Do I need say more? Where did he get that? Two boys, one year apart. Same parents. Same house….all of it, yet the youngest and i have a good relationship. We are not best buddies, but we have healthy respectful boundries and can actually communicate with one another without, guilt or shame. He actually opened my eyes to the fact that I am not the devil and I am always interested in what he has to say. he’s the only one who asks me how i am. If I feel ok (I have a seizure disorder) or that i should rest becasue i look tired…..etc. he gets right in when I can’t walk so well. Our Jack Russel sits on me if I’m about to have a seizure, and my son gets me a pillow or glass of water. So, I do mean something to some people – even our dog.
Your Mom sounds like my wife. She can’t help rescue cats. Rather she thinks she is the only one on the planet who can do it right, so in her world there is “no cat left behind.” Her family (no exceptions) are all compulsive ADHD to the max. Brother likes fishing, and now has a collection of tackle that literally rivels any tackle store i have ever seen. Only the very best of the best of equipment…..It’s creepy and completely out of balance.
He talks everyone into going fishing with him, and after about three times it dawned on me that all we were doing was watch him fish and talk about his equipment.
My point is your Mom sounds like she lives in her on little world and won’t let anyone in (too closely). yep! Church people, freinds….everyone loves her. Always smiling and talking to them (mostly about animals) then we drive home and she stares out the passenger window.
I ask her why she’s cold or detached and she jumps all over me about some long winded belief (al la her therapist) that nobody can make another person happy or sad, yadda yadda…..Actually its repressed anger and it does affect me and my feelings.
I three years my boys should be out on their own. being around her and those animals is just not in my cards.
I know it and hear what you said about your Dad loud and clear.
Thanks
It is not too late….you need to change things or end things!
Thanks
Sorry
I went on WAY too much. I understand completely.
Tom
No you did not go on too much…I so sympathize with your situation. What can you do to empower yourself? I will say that every married man empathizes with you to a certain extent. I know my husband does. He married this pretty, goofy, motivated kid. He ended up with this hard core woman who loves him but is all about the success of her kids..
Two years ago he insisted on running for congress even though I had strong feelings that he shoudn’t . We spent a good chunk of our savings dollars to allow this to happen. It was so stressful and I hated every minute of it. I smiled the whole time and went along with it. What else could I have done? I adore the man but he pushed me to my limits. He lost the election, but he continues to push himself and us through his professional endeavors. He is
opening new pain clinics now in addition to his anesthesia job at the local hospital.
I am finding that I need to find myself ….find my own ways of dealing with stress that don’t involve him and everything that is going on with him. Could you find your own life… a way of coping within this relationship that is separate from her?
I normally don’t cruise the internet. I found this site and discussion and was so worked up I actually asked my h if he cared if I worked or not. He said…if you felt the need to work I would want you to. Pretty great response. We don’t see eye to eye on everything but there is this fundemental respect and trust.
Mary
Thanks for hanging in there. I have a great job that pays for everything we need +, but I am just the type of guy who admires woman who chart their own interest and are my equal. I honestly NEVER thought I would be in this situation where I resent being looked down on for doing the right thing.
I re read what I wrote and admit I’m coming across as a helpless victim. I do have options and I’m just getting closer to a place that suits me better where I can trust and be trusted. I married a younger woman who I thought would join with me in making a life. I think Carrie Fisher said : “I wanted to grow old with a man, not because of them.”
I can certainly plow back into my work and get more in balance with working the gym time harder. I hear what you are saying about finding myself with or without this shrew around my neck.
I think I’ve said this in other posts. If roles were reversed and my wife worked FT and I drove all over the place saving animals using her gas, car expenses and bringing home pizza or cooking MAYBE twice a week, I would be committed to a mental hospital. My Mother in law would have a whole set of new complaints about what a bad husband and Father I am as well as her Greek Choir family.
All the excuses have been lame at best. Now the boys are young men and the animal thing has gotten progressivily worse. I think reality is now that the boys are coming into her own, she is left with me and I can’t be like your Dad welling up with tears from his reality.
The hard truth is that I am terribly unhappy and need to leave in a very mature and mindful way. I will not roll over and play dead for the priviledge of doing that. The state I live in imputs her earning capacity, awards her some rehabilitory alimony, but she will have to work. No buts about it. Sure, I’m probably on the hook for life, but I’m there now.
Mary. I appreciate a mature woman’s point of view. I’m getting there.
Regards
Hi Again
Talk about depression………….I had some time yesterday and went on an Ophra like web site for woman. The subject is the opposite of this site.
The stories were incredibly similar, except for the FACT that the men they were writing about were catagorized as being significantly mentally ill, or outcasts from society.
One woman went on and on about being tired of work, even though she admitted her hubby was a great Dad. Called him selfish, childish and a loafer. In short, there is a common thread across gender lines. It occured to me that if both partners “shared” we might actually have more quality time together rather then one partner being bone tired or resentful to the point of shutting down.
It does not follow that so called liberated woman, by virtue of finding their personal ‘truth” or some other arcaine “I am woman hear me roar” suppressed anger get to make all the choices. Especially when it is clear society and laws favor woman’s right to do so. At worst, certain woman (entitled out the wazzoo) force the issue without too much public stigma on their part. In fact, nobody gives a rusty (you know what) that men suffer the same way these woman do becasue that is just how it is, or should be.
In my case, if I quit my job or was suddenly unemployed, did not seek new employment on any meaningful level, and then decided to devote 75% of my time doing animal rescue (on my wife’s dime) I would be heavily medicated and purhaps institutionalized without a moments debate as to why. Truth of the matter. I would almost expect to end up in the Ha Ha Hotel trying to bite off my own left ear………….In society these men are pathetic paracites, and these woman are given a free pass. AND, if a man truly objects, a judge will guaranty these woman an income stream to keep up their good work. The deck is stacked, the game rigged and the house ALWAYS wins!
I’ve never been more blown away in my life! This is a word for word exact description of my life. Its so hard to even explain to family and freinds that even thou your spouse has made it impossible for you to ever chase your dreams or ever be anything but pretend happy in public! You basically cant see a scenaario of them having even the most basic survival skills to survive on there own! Resentment but basically not going to let my kids mother live under a bridge.
Speaking for myself, I’m tired of feeling like this. I said this to my wife in a marriage counseling session : “Everything would be so much better if I just shut my F’ing mouth and go to work.” Then the rock side of the two hard places implores me to stop being emotionally unavailable to my children. Complicate that with one of my sons getting mixed up in dealing and doing drugs, thrown out of school and running into the law AND being blamed by my wife for his behavior.
She took advantage of SHM status. However, our boys were not greeted at the door after school with a peanut butter sandwich and an apple……More like grabbing a box pizza or a box of mac. and cheese. Meaning no planned meals…..Sort of like a moth on a lightbulb with household duties. Yes, duties! Dr. Phil and Ophra would have a whole series on how abusive men are who even suggest such an idea!
Watching us ignore one another as a coping mechanism reminds me how short life is. Watching all types of couples looking at one another and seemingly want to be present for and with one another makes my chest tight.
As sure as I can be about anything, the “therapy” she goes to every two weeks (in between missed sessions I also pay for at $160 a crack) informs her new found indepenence from the oppressive marriage we have.
I have since refused to pay for her therapy (the miised appointments was that deal breaker) and that was proof positive what a manipulative and controlling husband I am. Truth, why should I pay for a “girls night” with a social worker who is a cheerleader for this nonsense.
More truth, telling her to foot that bill made me very uncomfortible and made me seriously question if was was in fact a controlling monster of a husband….BTW: This social worker is divorced from a womaizing husband. (JUST GREAT!)
A year ago I asked my wife to come back to marriage counseling. Her response was ‘What purpose will that serve if you just don’t change your behavior.” BINGO! Who’s the manipulator?
There are days I can tolerate the situation, but there are more days when her repressed anger gets the best of me. I hold my wife’s hand walking on the beach on vacation (It felt so scary) and feel like I was pulling a metal wagon. I know the feelings are there, but her $160/ hr. coping skills coach has now taken her place as the third person in our marriage steering her to even higher levels of repressed anger.
Thanks for listening
In the same boat…….I met my wife when she had 2 small children and we have been married for over 10 years. My father died before we met- and I was left with about 3 times my salary(middle income type of guy), which I put in a retirement account and some in a money market for some “emergency” cash if I needed it. My benefits and work retirement has really taken a beating over the many years in which I have worked there and someday, I’d like to hang my wrenches up and enjoy life before the grim reaper comes a calling. After the youngest child left the house, my spouse basically got laid off from her job. I let her cool her heels for a few months, then started pushing for her to go/look for other work. She has a higher education level that I do and the degree she has…well, now she doesn’t want to work in that field anymore. I got her on an online class which she made excellent grades…now, doesn’t want to work in that field. Now, her unemployment benefits have ran out and for the past year, she been basically all on my dime, aka medical bills, vacations, Christmas..the whole deal. She claims to “take care of the house”…but, there are clothes everywhere, dust everywhere and really no improvement in whatever the chores of the house are supposed to be. I come home after working 8-10 hours, to find nothing on the stove and the constant “what do you want to do about supper”…which, drives me NUTS. I have to end up cooking, or going for take-out basically. There is plenty of food in the fridge and pantry, but one has to get up and look to actually see what we have…or, take something out of the freezer, for later use.
She first claimed it was depression…she lost alot of weight when the last child left and she claims she hates to smell whatever is cooking, she loses her appetite. Now…if I come home and cook…she eats fine. If she stays alone at home while I work..she’ll forgo eating and wonder why she looks skinny. She has seen councelers, doctors…the works. I mean, if I sat at home, watching the same shows everday on the couch, smoking a pack or two of cigarettes a day………. I’d go nuts too.
She knows I have money in my retirement and as it will, or should be a fund for both of us when we are at a age to retire….she seems to think I should pull outta these funds, to support what “she” wants to do. I have been patient over the years, pulled cash outta retirement for both her needs and kids needs, since this has been going on–and I darn tired of it. If I bring up work, there are loads of excuses…I’m too old, nobody is hiring, I’m too skinny(if you don’t eat or move, you DO lose body mass), you make enough money so I can stay at home, you name it— then comes the “burden” word and the threats of leaving and taking 1/2 of whatever I have worked for, or was left to me via my deceased father. I have tried the argument of what happens to her….if, something happens to me. Sure, there will be some money there for a spell….but, what after all that is gone??? Her reply was to basically move in with one of the kids, or back to her elderly parents…yea, that will go over like a brass poot. It will work for a spell…but everyone has limitations, and I have about reached mine.
I have loved my wife for years and still do….but, having to take care of every need by myself, or if one of my step-children come up with a need, it all seems to fall on my shoulders, work OT or whatever. They go to her…then she comes to me. I didn’t bring these children into this world, but love them like I have, but shouldn’t she feel she should help too? Not in her mind…I have that “knot” stashed back, which I learned a valuable lesson from my first marriage…my wife doesn’t have access to this so called “knot” and due to threats over the years, will never have access.
When I first got remarried….shortly there-after…bill collectors started calling. Found out the new wife was over 20g in debt, that she claimed was only 5 or so from her divorce. Had to help out in that situation as well…to get her finances back in control, so….I’m basically “helped” out over the years. I already had my home/land…when she moved in.
It has gotten to the point now that if she leaves….well, I’ll just have to do what I have to do to protect myself, and what I have worked so many hours of OT, off-shifts, weekends– while cooking the majority of the meals-and providing those groceries, education, support, roof, etc… for her children, as well as herself. All the money she has ever made, very seldom went to the household bills and such….just childrens needs and her own. Alot of times…she had more money in her checking account…than mine, when she was working.
So…I understand the mentality and the poor situation alot of men find themselves in…trapped basically trying to make rational, outta irrational, with a love factor involved.
Whodo
You sound depressed and trapped.
I have come to some realizations. One: If a woman feels depressed or has her own self esteem issues, her journey to recovery involves a lot of talk of “taking back her power” yadda yadda yadda. My first question is from whom is she taking back power from?
If a man (you and I sound pretty down and out) our “awakening or taking back our power suggest we are misogynist and subject of a good two part program on Ophra on how men are abusive and cause woman to have depression. Tears…..the whole nine yards.
I feel the same way. Take the remaining cash you own (inheritence, whatever) pack a small bag, and make the best of it. In Reality? Your wife will hate you more, but at the end of the day she will have to do something. Everyone has to do something and she sounds like she needs a boot in the backside to move forward.
Like the articles say. We’ve tried EVERYTHING!
Maybe the kids will someday understand. Maybe not…..
All I know for sure are there are days I sit in my car outside my house and literally have panic attacks walking in. I am kept in the dark on both big and little things, and then when I’ve had enough, I explode. Emotional frustration explosion…not violent. THEN I’m labled as “abusive,” or worse, emotionally absent. That hurts….
Dr Tara, thank you for your kind and understanding perspective. It shows great wisdom and objectivity on your part. I am especially fond of one particular aspect of your stance on women of this nature: Your message isn’t aimed at bashing or generalizing women, in fact it promotes strong independant behavior that allows women to live happier, more fulfilling lives. Thats what some posters don’t seem to be able to grasp. There are multitudes of women that chant female empowerment and independance but your message cleaves a significant percentage that are on board with empowerment and individual strength just as long as its done at someone elses expense. I too am in a marriage in which I have become more of a father figure and provider rather than a partner and a lover. The most difficult aspect of this unfortunate situation is that inherently a woman that is characterized by ths type of behavior lacks the maturity and objectivity to see or come to terms with it. Hence the husband becoming the father figure. We now have a two month old baby girl and I fear that the already disproportionate degrees of contribution will worsen severly as the very nature of parenthood is that the parents maintain an adult level of responsiblity, the very thing she seems to be unwilling or incapable of to begin with. I have recently approached her out of frustration regarding our situation and she maintains a childlike disregard and purposeful ignorance all the way to the point of the topic of divorce. She would rather our family fall apart than face any truth.
It’s sad to read about your initial stages of this dilemma. You are articulating the earlier stages of this abusive entitlement mind set. My hope for you is that she discovers her own worth and can express her empowerment in a healthy way toward you. I made a mistake of calling my wife out to account for her unwillingness to tap into her vast source of unused income potential. She heard it as a threat and has acted accordingly since then. Meaning behaving as if doing so benefits me (personally) as some type of a favor, and not as a healthy enrichment of all of our lives.
I regret approaching her this way, and wish I could have done so while showing more dignity and maturity for my part. The temptation to freak out (after several years of asking, begging etc) is so strong. I wish I had taken more of the high road that has led me to where we are today. Two people not on the same page, angry and resentful (spiteful at times) over this very issue. It is an issue that touches on all the basic characteristics of a mature healthy relationship that enriches everyone.
It is often perverted into men being verbally abusive toward their spouse, unsupportive, cold, money hungry, selfish gorillas, when that is the furthest thing from the truth. Asking for something that meets your needs is not a crime or indication that we are needy and unworthy. Men are taught not to have feelings and needs. We “do” things and are expected of us to meet our spouses needs with a smile on our faces and joy in our hearts, and never question what doing so gives us as far as satisfaction.
In my case the very thought of asking for anything important to fulfilling my needs is automatically viewed by my wife, her family and friends as unacceptable and confirmation that she is trapped in a bad relationship. Again, if a woman leaves her husband, he is a bad guy. If a guy leaves his wife, it’s “a bad relationship.”
Me and my wife have probably had our last fight over this topic after all the years of pitch and toss. The ill feelings have finally led to my wife assessing her level of dissatisfaction in the relationship and asking me for a divorce. I’m both happy and sad thing could not have been worked out long ago.
My two cents are to stay above the fray. Stay in a good emotional place, don’t give in to fighting (it’s like quicksand. The more you struggle, the deeper you sink. Pointless!
If I had to do it again? I would have laid it out calmly and then proceed from that to outline concrete solutions. Least of which would have been a threat of divorce (tempting not to put out there out of pure frustration). No, I would have just put the checking account and credit cards in my name and kept looking forward while ignoring all the talk about economic or mental abuse. In short, I would have thrown a saddle on that horse from day one before societal and family dynamics solidified under my feet.
I wish you luck staying quiet, strong and focused. From where I stand today, we might of been divorced years ago before it got to this point. I would have rather known earlier before things got more legally binding and complicated. You will be sad either way if these issues are not settled. Tell her that you would like to have a conversation, and not the last word.
See what happens
Dear Dr.Tara,
My wife has an MBA in business strategy and was earning a very nice chunk of change when she was working yet, after giving her a year off to tend to our children (3 beautiful girls 6, 3 and 1 year), she is now not wanting to go back to work. We are struggling and I earn a high salary.
I come home from a high demanding job (I’m a lawyer) to a messy house, dishes everywhere, food debris all over the house…I’m just fed up. When I ask her why the place wasn’t cleaned, she vebally attacks me! Now, my tone may have sounded a little too harsh but her excuse why the place wasn’t clean was because she was tending to the children. Later on into the evening, I find out that she just browses and speaks to all er friends on social websites all day long. She doesn’t even change out of her pajamas!!
We are struggling and she blames me for it. She would say she needs a new car, clothes etc but, bottom line is I can’t do this anymore.
And I told her that. Her response? That’s fine, I will ask a judge to have you provide me with alimony for the rest of my life. Tough!
I have since moved out and left her and the children. I physically and mentally cannot take the stress anymore. It has been affecting my job, my health, everything.
My advice to men out there: DO NOT marry someone who doesn’t want to work. You will be sorry by having to burden the entre household on your shoulders.
Hi all
Been awhile since i posted. My wife has filed for divorce three weeks ago after we had a heart to heart concerning the basis of our relationship. The word love did not come up at all, and when the word empathy was used, she flat out said she had none for me.
About three weeks ago, I had eight massive cluster seizures at work and was rushed to the ER at 1 in the afternoon. I had two more seizures in the hospital and for anyone who has had the pleasure of having a grand mal, it is very painful and disorienting.
I sat in the ER from 1pm until 11:30pm when my wife drove up and essentially gave me a ride home. Blood all over my ripped white dress shirt, caked blood on my face and hair and various cuts and scratches all over. I was a mess.
I guess she meant what she said about empathy………………A few days later and a few sexual encounters, she stiffens her spine and pursues the divorce talk in earnest. “I’m done!”
For all you following this, she then tells me “For once I am standing on my own two feet.” Okay, for those who have simply not switched off your PC’s, she was obviously referring to her emotional slavery she essentially volunteered for. It all came out. All the green slime. I am manipulative, abusive, so on and so forth……She then takes up sleeping in my sons room and closing the door at night. ??????
She wants to mediate the situation at first until my attorney calls me to inform me she has retained legal representation from one of the most expensive law firms in the county. This is how it works guys. The opposing attorneys first letter requests the the husband pay his wife’s retainer. Gulp! If the husband does not, the opposing side goes to court to have temporary support granted including legal fees AND the cost of the hearing. If such support is granted, you can be shit sure this will be the basis for future alimony. Its a wedge issue.
I have been completing a CIS (Case Information Statement) which essentially discloses all the family assets and liabilities and is the basis for making a settlement in uncontested cases. If the parties don’t agree, the wife will file for divorce claiming verbal and emotional abuse (this is my case). For people who are new, my wife has on several occasions, punched, kicked and pulled my hair in fits of rage. So now when I attempt to even discuss division of furniture, etc. she races away warning me that if I do not stop harrassing her, she will get me in BIG TROUBLE. Meaning a phony restraining order.
We will have a conference in possibly two weeks (I insisted on a face to face meeting and not a one off telephone conversations).
To ALL men out there who are not happy with the way things are and are married < 10 years. File and get out. In my state, after 10 years, the award is alimony "for life."
If you < then 10 year guys think it's going to get way better, wake the hell up and move on.
Stay tuned. I am relieved on may levels, but will not retire the way would have liked, even without the wife working one blessed day.
Tom,
I’m going to oversimplify this … and I apologize. I too, though, very much feel your pain and have emphathy for you. Now, the truth though. Don’t focus on what will or may come from the divorce. What would you do if could start over with ‘yourself’? Would you change jobs, go into business for yourself? Travel? What?
Ask your attorney. If your income goes down now, how does that affect your alimony? If you make 100K now, and she’s going to get 40K or, plus you pay tax, etc … you only have about 30K left. So, if you take a job doing what you love, and only make 40K, she’s going to get something less, you’ll pay less taxes (and yes, you’ll have less to live on), but maybe you’ll be happier than you’ve been in sometime.
Just give it a thought. You may be finally free from prison.
Good luck.
Thank you so much for listening. Empathy costs nobody anything, takes some time, but feels damn good receiving it.
As far as my wife? There are a few emotional curves. First, she truly expresses that she hates my guts. Second, her sense of entitlement go WAY beyond what she has become accustomed to for the past 21 years – this is her Christmas Day. The Powerball all rolled into one. (It’s her last bite of the apple and she’s going to bite deep). Through all the years of breaking my ass, SHE has now decided that because she is so unhappy she deserves a better relationship. (This one hurts….If your unhappy, then just go. Nobody has ever stood in her way before, why is this different?)
Can I impoverish myself? Sure, but not on purpose. I can’t just walk away from a job that pays health insurance for me and my children. I have seizures, so I need coverage. Period!
I cannot rely on a woman who works PT at an animal shelter to do anything but pay for gas, and I forgot, after years of requesting, she has recently taken over the cell phone service….I guess the risk of tracking her calls to her “interest” was too real. What a phony she turned out to be. Won’t seem to do anything unless it suits her needs.
So, should I care? Not at all. Let her take what flesh is left on the bone and have the courts enforce me keeping the status quo. Meaning I cannot alter her standard of living.
Very very dark thoughts are crowding in sometimes. It’s pointless to even think of drawing my next breath unless it produces income or affords her a tax break of some type.
It’s not that simple, but yes, in a perfect world I would be happier and healthier.
HELP!!!!
Any advice on divorcing a passive aggressive wife? Say yes to virtually everything, and then does whatever she wants whenever she wants.
Cut off the credit cards and about ready to cut off the checkbook as well.
Says yes to everything ,,,gives me the creeps, and scares me.
Check out:
•The Divorce Danger Zone and the Power of NO: Giving in to a High-Conflict Ex in Order to Finalize a Divorce Is Often a Big Mistake (May 3, 2011)
Also, Google Martin Kantor’s book, “Distancing: Avoidant Personality Disorder…” Pages 130-137 have an excellent discussion of Passive – Aggressive behavior.
I’ll pass on what my twice divorced father passed on to me. (1) Hire the best shark you can afford and (2) You don’t really have to be a son of a bitch, you only have to make her think you can be.
Good luck!
cut off all finances that aren’t court ordered.
no joint anything, yours and hers, no ours.
cheers brother
Hi,
I have been reading posts and I thought that I was the only person that was going through these problems. My wife and I have been together for 4 years now and it has been rocky the whole time. I was deployed in Iraq when we decided to get married. The agreement was that she goes to school and don’t worry about a job, because I know that we will be moving around since I am in the military. It has been 4 years later we have two sons a 3 year old and 1 year old. I get up for work at around 5 in the morning if not earlier everyday except for weekends. I have to take care of other peoples problem that are older than me and also younger than me. Then I come home and ask when do you want to enroll in college and she says I don’t know, I wanna take it in the classroom. I’m like you don’t have the time for that just try to do it online, the same way that I do. She doesn’t want to do that. I drive majority of the time, she only drives when its about less than 5 miles away from home like to the store or my sons school and back. So I find myself wondering to myself what if she doesn’t want to do anything with her life and just live off me? So I started talking to other women for advice and started having feelings for one. She has a job, goes to school, have her own transportation and just is independent. Am I wrong for falling for another or wanting a divorce?
Hi Zay,
First, thank you for your service.
Second, your marriage sounds inequitable. If you don’t see a future with your wife, it is best to legally end that relationship before embarking upon another. If you should marry again, I recommend you have a pre-nup. It isn’t the end all be all answer, but it can make ending a marriage to a user less messy and will weed out women who just want to use you for a meal ticket.
Best,
Dr T
I was checking the website everyday to see if I had received a reply. I appreciate this website so much and she still thinks I am the problem 100%. I have told her now that it is pretty much over… It is going to hurt but believe me I would rather do it now than later, where all of my assests will become hers because we were married for so long.
again thanks alot Dr. T.
This is an interesting read my ex is nearly 41 years old had a job at 16 working in a factory then quit when she became pregnant as her sons grew she considered volunteer work at their school to be employment, which she did while her first ex husband worked his ass off. She remained in that relationship (Not formally married) for 17 years until she left to begin a new relationship with my naive and ignorant self. Her oldest i later found out who was then 15 years old had Aspergers Syndrome and her youngest then 10 was the most spoiled, selfish and nasty child I had ever met. I tried my hardest to like this boy and continued to struggle until he eventually succeeded is splitting us up and becoming the surrogate parent to my two children. At the age of 17 even though the ex wife now had a new boyfriend who was recently divorced, the boy had resume his role as head of house.
When my ex became pregnant with our son she gave up her voluntary position where her two eldest kids went to school and remained at home until we divorced which basically forced her into work participation. But at the age of 41 she has had only one semi-professional unskilled job. Like her first ex partner (they were never legally married) I was immediately replaced, by a supposedly better version.
She alienated me from my own family, presented herself as the concerned and super responsible parent and portrayed me as abusive, inconsistent and destructive using all these things just by suggesting them to restrict and limit access to our two children. After being apart for a year i am told that my 5 year old son is now in need of counseling because of the emotional consequences of my abandoning the family, even though leaving was never my idea, even though i had insisted on counseling. I visited the school to find out and object to a 5 year old needing counseling and the possible damage from the resulting stigma. I had been told by my ex-wife that my consent for counseling was not needed but when I repeated that to the school administrator it was refuted. I asked them to call my ex-wife and explain that to her at which time the ex became furious, it was then obvious to the school administrator that my ex-wife had extreme control issues.
What I didnt learn until much later about my ex-wife. First she had presented a much different personality while courting, another while newly married and then relaxed into herself after we had the house and kids and then became a vicious, vindictive and entirely other person when we split up.
She had been given away at birth by a teen age mother. She never knew either biological parent. She did meet her mother much later in her 20’s but experienced rejection from her again. I believe my ex-wife has some very serious attachment related issues. She was adopted as a baby by a woman who couldn’t have children and had no idea how to deal with such a difficult baby. My ex-wife had been sexually abused by a friend of her adopted mother who has never accepted the story or her daughters version. My ex-wife was a self-harmer who was a promiscuous, substance abuser who cut herself and went from abusive relationship to another until meeting a friend who she claimed to love and was young enough and naive enough to be easily manipulated into providing the minimal amount of security.
I didn’t know until later that my ex-wife had a very unusual and inappropriate emotional relationship with her son, she confided personal information, had discussions of a mature level above his age, waited outside the bathroom door until her son was finished using the toilet, ran his shower until he was 15 years, old dropped whatever she was doing no matter where or what to get her son home because he could not use any other toilet but the one at home…..he would literally go without using the toilet at school all day and then get home as quickly as possible…
I didn’t know until later that a lot of the inappropriateness and other behavior by my ex-wife was motivated by guilt over the sexual abuse by a friends son while she was having a drink and some weed with a friend at her house…
In spite of all this I still question my own experience, still doubt myself and still wonder if I am screwed up and just projecting my own condition, failure and short comings on a am out of some need to blame and punish her. I am recovering alcoholic, been sober nearly 30 years, stopped drinking and using drugs in 1982 and have worked hard on myself and wonder why i didnt see this before it was so late. I have been a counselor, worked for the department of juvenile justice, I am a college graduate, I am not intellectually impaired, I am not stupid and yet I have never been more confused, more hurt, felt more vulnerable and more fragile. I have been homeless, suffered the loss of everything including my children and finally a heart attack.
Now this woman holds my children hostage, wearing a carefully crafted mask of responsibility, while I am the designated problem, abuser and perpetrator,
Zay
There is something wrong. It does not get better as time goes on.
That’s a I have to say.
I wish you luck
Thanks
I can’t believe all of the responses here but at least it’s good to know I am not alone in this situation.
I wont get into all of the details of my situation other than to say I am too married to someone who is fighting me at every turn when it comes to going back to work even though financially we are in a really dire situation.
My wife is giving me every single reason why she can’t go back to work but I am sure they are typical, the cost of day-care will take my paycheck, I don’t have a college degree and there are no new jobs, I have no skills because I have not worked in four years..yada…yada…yada.. but they are just excuses.
The fact is that she likes being at home and she likes pretending to play the role of “June Cleaver” . The reason I say “pretending” is because she is really just a glorified babysitter for our son, who is now four years old and in pre-school three days per week. She does nothing around the house, and I mean nothing, and spends most days in her pajamas until she goes to get my step-daughter, who is sixteen, from high school. We literally eat out most of the time because she will not go to the grocery store, no matter how bare the cabinets are, but she has no problem going to Target and dropping $200 on stuff that we really don’t need.
And, not come off as a total a%%h&* but intimacy is non-existent in our relationship. She literally does not want me to touch her because of her body image issues but she spends a great deal of her time worrying about me and other women, even though I work from home and seldom leave the house. The fact is that I have become so pacified over the past four years that I would not know what to do with another woman if the opportunity every presented it’s self.
I will just say that I put myself in this situation but I can say that it is never what I wanted. I did not envision being a 40 years old and in a marriage who gives me no support emotionally, financially or physically. It really sucks and I need to start digging myself out of this situation.
You found this site like the rest of us did, and it was no accident. You are not happy, your wife refuses to help out and share duties with you, but at the same time you appear more willing to tell us how you feel.
After 21 years of the same BS, my wife decided that it was now her time to be happy in a relationship, so she went out and has one. Laughs right in my face with it because she says she has nothing to lose by moving on. Divorce laws in NJ USA are clear cut. Alimony for life for anyone married over 15 years, half of everything, and child support that in total will bankrupt you.
My advise? Get out now (Just walk) or figure out a way to live with it and make the best of it. Simple. Trying reason either way is a waste of time, and over 50% of marriages fail anyway. My advice? RUN
Oh, and all the advice you get her that gives you that “OMG” feeling. Forget it. It’s all good “free”theory. You and your wife need to work this stuff out now.
TomG,
Haven’t had much time to keep up here my brother, but I hope you the best. I hope your mental, physical and emotional health are on the road to recovery. You are steps ahead in your path and I envy that!
All,
an update:
I took a new position and moved from CA to TX, in the process got a pay raise and a reduction in cost of living.
I’m now 5 months away from having the required 6 months of residency to file for divorce in TX.
By the time I file, the CA house (a joint asset) will be sold, all assets will be cash and no other large joint asset will exist that isn’t easily cut into pieces.
I watch daily as the dear wife does nothing to pursue a career, some feeble attempts to make gentle queries to temp agencies. Same old song and dance. 20 years the same tune, no surprise with the results.
So, yes, TX is a community property state, I will gladly cut our joint assets in half. Half my retirement (sorry OUR retirement), half of everything will be hers. Fine. However, the state of TX won’t stick me with the FOREVER support of this female parasite. Forever is a long time, even being 20 years into a marriage.
Can someone please tell me how to understand this mindset of not needing to support yourself?
She is a college educated woman, we have no children, she has a degree in math/science, and is content to do NOTHING. I worked from home today, as is the luxury of someone with my degrees and experience, and watched as the patterns of her activity ranged from what I would call wasting time to wasting time. She is supposedly looking for a job/career, according to the words. According to the actions, its the same and while I’m an optimistic person, the realist in me suggests that I should expect the same from the last 20 years of disappointment.
So after years of trying to explain my expectations, the plan to the end moves forward.
I’m a complete shyte, this is deliberate selfish behaviour on my part to protect my own financial interests, but there it is, I see no difference in my own deliberate actions versus my wife’s deliberate inaction. There is a Rush song lyric here somewhere, “choose not to decide, and you still have made a choice”
Love, honor, cherish, and not expect someone else to carry your ass.
So there it is folks, the fuse is lit. Its a crap sandwich that I don’t want on my plate. I’d love to fix it, I’ve tried to fix it, I’ve tried counseling, talking, not talking, supporting, ignoring, you name it.
This is me calling in a nuke strike on my own position in 5 months.
Thanks again to all of you Dr Tara, TomG, many many others to let those of us out here in the world that we are not alone in our single experiences.
just to bring two threads together.
I wrote this a year ago or more, go here:
http://allwomenstalk.com/my-wife-doesnt-work/
go to comment:
“did you buy the bridge too?”
thats me, there, that should help in my psychiatric diagnosis and whatever catharsis I seem to need here
I’m in a bad place all. Seems the wife’s new boyfriend was introduced to my children while I escaped from her holiday “courtship dating.” Her words…..you can’t make this crap up people.
Took it upon herself to do that without a hint (no doubt spite for not hanging around for her head screw a rama if you ask me) THEN accuses me of doing some”thing” she feels is not consistant with the betterment of our children during our divorce. Reminding me along the way they “we don’t have to hate one another, and we can still celebrate birthdays together, go out to eat, and all the other fun family stuff she grew up fat dumb and happy on all these years on my dime.
Did I leave out her dropping her panties in the driveway after one of her “sleepover” weekends? Her new thing is that “she” does not want to have to hide and sneak around with this relationship…………….Oh how eff’ing mature she has become……
People……this is crazy time. Any observations, comments, one liners?
Tom,
Sorry to hear of the ongoing crazy vortex. All I can suggest is to document everything you can and try to stay the more mature one in the room.
Its all part of the game, as you are well aware. Rise above it, point out the crazy behaviour to her if you think its worth it, but more than likely thats a losing proposition.
Let her move on to the next poor bastard to bleed dry and quietly feel a little sympathy for the guy. You have children together, so it will be inevitable that you will need to talk and see each other, but just remember its all about her needing to control you and you need to take that away from her.
Let her crazy roll off your back and move along to a healthy relationship with your sons. Don’t let her actions eat at you, its all part of her game, just see it for what it is, another mechanism for her to control you or others in her life.
JSG
Maybe it would be healthier to refer to her as the “soon to be ex” STBE wife, rather than wife?
Keep the perspective on going to a better place without the emotional rollercoaster of her lack of ability to be an adult, i think we’ve got the evidence for her inability to act like an adult, so why did you even expect that?
Close this chapter and don’t give her any tools to work on your strings with, set some clear boundaries with how you expect her to behave with regards to your children, since you have that shared responsibility.
However, she must consciously or subconsciously understand that the kids are now her mechanism to control you, if its not her direct with you.
My wife and I have 3 kids. 20,19 and 17. When they were babies, i understood her not working because she was taking care of them and working hard. But, now its different. She dropped out of high school about a year before our first was born and she never worked then. She did get a job almost a year ago but quit because she “didnt like it.” Now every time she finds a job she qualifies for (waitressing, fast food, Walmart etc.) she doesn’t want to do it. She claims she can’t find a job, but you just can’t get it through to her head that not very many people are going to hire her without a ged. But of course, she’s too “busy” to get a GED but she doesn’t do anything. I love her very much, but we’re struggling and nothing will get her to take a job. I’m really lost on what to do about it. She’s got every excuse in the world but none of them are good ones. She loves to spend money, but she doesn’t want to help bring it in.
ShaunThat stuff only gets worse over time. You must stop making life easy for her. No income, no credit cards. DO IT NOW before it’s too late.
You will end up the bad guy no matter what. Do it now. No more threats. Makes things worse.
Awesome analogy, my ex was like that, what’s harder then living with a women like that is divorcing one. She feels entitled to everything. I used to tell her the difference between a child and a adult was adults can take care of themselves.
The laws are NOT written with men in mind. If you think she’s entitled now, let her get a lawyer and then tell me how easy it is to bend over on their command. Men have ZERO choices. You feel frustrated and humiliated now? Just wait until they whip out a form and just do the math………10 + years? Alimony for life. Make $120K you pay $220/week child support. yadda yadda yadda………….They will want everything you made, what you make and anything else you will ever make…………get it?
If you marry badly you will pay for it financially and emotionally the rest of your GD life, into retirement, and then some.
Either put up with it, or get out. Simple.
My wife of 20 years completely destroyed my credit. My youngest is 12 and I am making plans to leave when he is older. I’ve spent 20 years of my life working endless hours only to hear my wife complain that we don’t have enough money. When I have had chances to earn more by moving and taking better jobs she has refused to go.
Meanwhile, she has accumulated massive amounts of debt. Sat on her growing butt and spent her days gossiping with the other SAHM’s. Most of which mock and ridicule their hard working husbands.
I did everything for my wife and she would respond by turning down my attempts to be intimate with her. I have felt alone and depressed for years!! I feel like I have wasted 20 years of my life.
Worst of all, her dad (who is very good to me) is a huge part of her life. She wastes our money then turns to him when the kids need something. Thus, I look like a deadbeat and he looks like a hero to them.
BTW, this site is great! I don’t feel so alone anymore. I am just married to a woman who uses people who she thinks can give her something she wants. I used to get so excited when she was nice to me. Then, I figured out she was only nice when she wanted something.
It’s been hell.
Oh, and some further info. I centered my life around my family. I did everything for them. Now, my two oldest barely speak to me. I am the one who kept my wife and in-laws from pushing them into activities that they did not want to do. I went to bat for them. I helped them with their homework. I ran out in the middle of the night to get them medicine. Yet, somehow I am the bad guy.
another resource that may be helpful:
http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/forums/
for those of us who give too much
Awesome link!! Talk about made to order! Thanks JSG!!
yeah I stumbled upon No More Mister Nice Guy a few months ago and thought I found my autobiography.
I just kinda figured that the dear wife would “figure it out” and step up and get a job, although we can survive on my income alone. I’ve explained to her my expectations, but nothing has ever happened.
Apparently its my job to support this ambition-less perpetual child, so she can pursue nothing meaningful.
Fast forward 20 years after a college degree for her and she is volunteering to save abandoned puppies. Meanwhile my conflict avoidance allows this bullshit to continue because until recently it was going to be financial suicide to say the divorce word.
Now I’m 4 months away from the 6 month residency requirement in Tejas to file for divorce and not expect to pay alimony FOR EVER. Which is what would have happened in the great state of Kalipornia.
I’m still a “nice guy”, but I have my own goals, priorities and I’m not a door mat to a parasite who seems to believe that life is handed to you and you don’t need to earn it.
The dear wife seems to think that I’m the gravy train, the problem is for her that the train is leaving the station.
My wife’s gravy train is leaving the station also. She was such a great wife at one time. The neighborhood we moved into had a bunch of mean SAHM’s that got their rocks off ripping down their husbands. My wife couldn’t escape their influence. I am glad that you see the light of day.
BTW, I see adopting animals seems to be a common theme for many of our spouses. Mine is not one, but there is still time.
Alimony for life…………….what a concept. The wince on my Attorney’s face when I told her she never worked after 21 years sent shivers down my spine. I make a good living AND I was blessed with some significant inherited cash (which is outside of equitable distribution).
I had to play “bat shit” and made it clear that I would rather burn through every dime rather then give her anything “for life.” My Attorney signed onto that and I was very happy the day she put my STBE back on her heels. My wife graduated college with highest honors as a biology teacher and never really bothered to even look for work. Her income was imputed as if she were working, and my child support went down. Meaning the message is she must find work. (I hope your all sitting down reading this part) She is now cleaning houses for cash rather then find work……She did this in high school + babysit. I kid you all not! Proof positive she does not like the serious responsibility of having to be somewhere at a certain time for a specific purpose.
In the end I gave her the house (debt free) half of the retirement savings and some cash to move onto her next victim. Which she wasted ZERO time doing BTW. I mean within less then three months she is now spending all her free time, plus entire weekends with this new guy.
One day we had a disagreement over her insistence I buy our one son a car. I simply said no which erupted into some blathering speech about how I just could not stand that “for once in my life I’m standing on my own two feet.” Did you ever see or hear something so incredible or horrible you simply blanked out? I was literally staggering over how out of touch this woman/child really is. Now she’s “standing on somebody else’s two feet.”
I feel a little sad for the schmuck…….but I’m very upset my wife introduced him to our boys over Christmas. From what I know he is divorced, has a high school age daughter and paying hellish alimony………..He is also a ladies man which should be interesting since the STBE has started taking her animals with her to his house over the weekends. A little too much too fast even if she claims to have known him for years (so she says). My STBE does not so much ask, as she imposes in this regard. I’m positive he must be saying “Well, if I really love her I’ll do this for her. Camel’s nose under someone else’s tent…….Just wait buddy………………………………..
Her and I text message. Or should I say she text’s me about silly day to day goings on with our 16 year old son, even though I’m well plugged into his school, friends and such. I never respond to her or even acknowledge her effort. Which she NEVER did before. No phone calls during the day, text, email…..zippo. Now she’s my pen pal?
In the last month as all this stuff was going on in her sick mind (introductions and such + SO much more) I flew to Vail for Christmas and New Year. Drove to Boston for a long weekend, and am now out in Vagas hacking around. She text me that she was glad I was moving on with my life (then added AGAIN) that she had moved on with hers.
She has not “moved on.” She has moved across town like a 14 year old girl trying to prove something to her parents. At least that’s how it appears.
Rip the bandaid off quickly.
I’ve been keeping up with your posts for almost a year now tomg so you know I feel for you. I cannot wrap my head around these types of women who don’t think they are obligated to pull their own fucking weight. It’s maddening and makes the rest of us women who are hardworking an ambitious look bad. One thing I have to toss in though is that I don’t think you should knock working as a housekeeper. A job is a job man, and I have friends who live in Manhattan who pay their housekeepers more than a lot of school teachers or firefighters make! A job is what you make it. I did similar work in high school and college off and on and it was more lucrative than you might think. If your former wifey poo can’t hack it then that’s a character flaw on her part IMO. I’m glad you’re finally getting out of there.
Well, you found this site, but I’ll warn you. The more you read and post the worse you are going to feel at some point when reality kicks in and you and your wife have “the talk” on even ground after all the self awareness and soul searching you can muster rolls off your tongue.
In my case the term I used to describe our relationship was “we are very nice dead people.”
It was literally three days after that come to Jesus when I learned (from her) that she had, and was looking to rekindle a relationship she had with our tree service man 6 years before.
All the years of not working and driving me crazy was over because she was “done.” Meaning I was no longer buying into her madness, so a swift kick to the curb was now in the offing…………..We are literally days from finalizing the divorce and I can say I’m naturally not thrilled with what happened, but I refuse to let what she did and the term divorce define me as a person. Yes, I resent the result of all my struggle and probably always will (I feel set up), but there is just no way I can risk more of my health and wealth waiting for her to snap out of it. I feel I was waiting for something to happen that would make the reason I found this site and posted feel silly. Truth is that something did not exist and (sounds like a shallow throw away line) so I’m better off in the long term.
As a business person I looked at the mechanics of divorce as I would a bad business decision. I took my licks, and moved forward. A real woman/person does not behave like my STBEW and hopefully I have learned something from it. And no, I do not want to be considered her friend as she would like me to. THAT’S MY CHOICE.
Thanks, TMOG. I’ve spent the last 3 years coming out of the fog. I am really learning about Histrionic Women, which I believe my wife is. She love bombed me beyond belief the first 7 years we were together. Then, overnight she turned it off. I, unfortunately self medicated to deal with the lack of love and respect.
My story is long and perhaps one day I will share it when I have the time.
Thanks for the support!
Observe your wife without judgement. The dots won’t connect and you can take it from there.
Also, not EVERY woman does this. One straight jackets does not fit all.
My wife is a teacher and working (even part time) could have worked perfectly to balance our time at work and her time with our children/with summers off. I just made too much sense.
When this topic (reality) came up shortly after our first son was born 19 years ago, she told me that if she did teach she would then “have to do it all.” Meaning, work, children, clean, cook………….Truth, I clean bathrooms, and at the time did almost all the cooking.
So, she stayed home and did what she “wanted.”
This is not the 1950’s! We needed the income, and it was insulting to blame me for being inflexible (I cook and clean bathrooms while I’m not working) and more insulting to unilaterally “choose” and dismiss all those facts because she thought she would have to do more………………….she demanded a rose garden.
No, there are plenty of hard working mothers and wives in the world and it was right under her nose. ALL HER SISTERS married slackers, and all of them work and take care of children, etc……they often lamented how they would like to pumpkin pick, go to the zoo and the park at will like their sister.
I may be the exception to the rule but I actually find this article refreshing, replacing wife with husband. My husband does work but is only making minimum wage and has flat out told me that he refuses to do anything extra at work, for example training for a new department, because he feels he shouldn’t have to. And I tell him since when did doing the exact same menial job guarantee that he is going to receive the income he desires. I worked and went to school as well to improve my skill set and to bring both of us to our ultimate goal of owning our own home, paying down our debt, etc. The only problem was he simply wasn’t ready for all of that. He was so used to having his mom happily take care of everything that he figured as long as he continues working and making the same low wages that it would be enough. And I know that I am also to blame. My low self-esteem had me feel as if he was it. I wasn’t going to find anyone else so just tough it out. And I tried. From pushing him to move out from his mother’s house to move in with me, pushing for him to get his driver’s license (he was 31 at the time and had full access to his mom’s car all of his life), pushing him to get married and have kids (my son I’m happy about, marriage? probably should have kept my mouth shut on that one) And all the while, as he watches me struggle balancing work, school, and now parenthood one would think that more of an effort would be made to help out someone who you say you want to be with and would do anything for. There was even a point after I had our son that he wanted me to stay at home. This went against every fiber in my being because I grew up being surrounded by women who worked AND took care of the home. But I did stay at home and we successfully put ourselves into even more debt because his income simply wasn’t enough to maintain our 1 bedroom apartment. The part of your article that really resonanted with me was the part where you state “An equal relationship requires that both partners be whole, with their own fully developed identities.” This is so true and although it took having to be in an unhappy marriage to finally figure that out at least I know now and can finally have the confidence to achieve equal happiness and fulfillment with whomever I choose to share my life with.
You felt what is was like to have a mate just do enough to keep himself busy (My STBE) never seriously considered even looking for a job. She was a stay home Mom (fine) but demanded better schools which required her to work. She just never put 2 and 2 together until we filed for divorce. Now her animal rescue activities have petered out, and she has all but taken up with another man on the other side of town.
All she did was replace snooks to take care of her. Claiming to stand on her own two feet, I received a call one morning from her BF (we are not divorced yet) chiding me that my change in plans one weekend (it was an emergent situation I felt did not deserve my STBE knowing because she takes off whenever she wants and flate tells me its none of my business).
Now imagine my utter shock at this guys big brass ones: I asked him who he was, and why he was calling. His answer made him sound like a fool. My change of plans was interfering with his weekend with my wife at his house and he was angry at me………..
Alert alert Will Robinson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She’s hooked up with a real gorilla (he owns a tree service and is rather on the big side) and feels it’s his right to hop scotch over my wife and deal with me directly. Folks……………does anyone out there believe for one second me, or anyone for that matter, would cave into such threats? She found a “real man” to take care of her this time……….Holy control freak Batman!!!!!!!!! She chose a real winner.
So, in sum, people who don’t pull their weight or who are selfish (maybe your hubby has clinical depression) and do the very bear minimum are (call a spade a spade) slackers.
Most woman get a pass, but men usually do not. I was listening to the radion one night, and a caller (woman) called into confess that since her husband lost a job, through no fault of his, she now thinks him less of a man, and by extention no longer attractive to her.
Woman would rather see their husbands and fathers in armor die on the backs of their white horses, rather then fall off.
He was still trying to hold onto the belief that we could work things out. I told him that no I’m not going to change my mind. I would rather us be civil and friendly towards each other and I hope he takes this time (because we are still living in the same house until our lease is up) to get his life together. No more “nagging” wife trying to push him to do more because now he has to be his own inspiration and find his own drive. I know there are some women who love that knight on a white horse type lifestyle. I would rather have my knight stand beside me and we BOTH take on the world together. Of course we may not be equal on absolutely everything but doing the bare minimum is simply not going to move anyone forward.
Hi
All I wanted was an equal partner to share everything with. I knew I was in trouble early on when my STBE snapped at me that if she worked she would shoulder all the burden. Well, gee wiz……where do I find her a rose garden?
The point was she didn’t even try. Rather she assumed this man was lazy and would oppress her into slavery…….pure nonsense!
Then the private school stuff started and when we split the loaf (one home schooled and one in public) I found her expectations unrealistic and methods of getting her way manipulative and abusive.
NOT all woman who stay home are abusive and lazy, but it should be worth noting that a college educated woman with two young men in high school and school need not rescue cats all the live long day + have an affair to boot.
TomG,
Can you give me some insights into the divorce settlement process?
I’ve started cataloging assets and debts, and I’d rather keep all of my retirement accounts. Was there any way to expect the valuation of pre-tax versus post-tax monies?
Can I assume pre-tax / 1.28 = post-tax if my expected post retirement income tax will be 28%?
Obviously all states are different, but anyone’s experience in divorcing a wife who has not worked in 20 years in Harris county TX would be appreciated.
We have been together 19+ years, but I’ll have a 6 month residency in Harris county to file divorce in 3 months. That filing date for separation will put the marriage at just under 20 years.
I will gladly trade “spousal support” for up to 5 years for some trade-offs with splitting the assets.
I don’t give a crap about our junk or house, I just want to make sure I’m not dealing with this parasite in the future FOR EVER.
-JSG
Here’s the deal. I live in NJ which a gulag camp for divorced men. I was (soon to be unmarried) for 21 years. In NJ it is alimony for life (these all sound like prison terms. “For life.” “5 to 10.” etc………
If your attorney tells you there is some type of spreadsheet for figuring alimony, walk right out of their office and find another attorney. There IS NO FORMULA or “guideline”, its what you can talk her into doing with the least amount of fuss. If her appetite is cash, give her some pre tax (lump sum), and a house (also pre tax).
Your reasoning is spot on, but if your wife is bat shit, you need to find the most aggressive attorney you can find to back you up.
I pulled it off. Gave my STBE the house, $90K in cash, 1/2 my retirement, and child support that imputed her income as a certified science teacher at $50K/ year. In other words, “get a job.” That said, I had significant non distributable assets I could have raised a huge legal defense with (wear her down) – BUT, the secret weapon for me (my opinion) is her boyfriend who she believes is like minded (I was at one time……….) who owns his own business, is divorced himself, and might need a hand up from the alimony he’s paying out of his backside. His wife lives is a very very nice home in a great part of town, so it is clear she got that and more in the divorce. The word is he likes to drink and like woman about 10 year younger then my STBE…………..Too funny.
Side note. She loves they guy because he’s so loving, calm and respectful. Her and I had a disagreement on a free weekend, so rather then talk about it (I’ve never met this guy) he picks up the phone and calls me at work to chew me out for wrecking his weekend…….Can you say brass ones? I believe this ape actually thought HE could somehow make ME do what he wants……..Can anyone else hear warning bells?
Anyway, spread your assets on the table and carefully make a weak offer. The next person who speaks loses. If she wants to kill you, you will know in seconds, if the counter offer is somewhere inside orbit, you might be able to buy her out. BTW: I should have gone with alimony because she and this guy love one another, and since the wife likes to be taken care of, I figure she will be remarried in three years, but I wasn’t going to roll the dice because of the unhealthy chemistry I see happening between them.
AGAIN, everything is negotiable.
You speak the language of a good “relationship” where both are interdependent, fair, hardworking and loving people willing to give and allowed to get.
The world as I know it.
I am writing this to help me understand my current state, trying to balance what I feel is an unbalanced self. I have been married 15 years. I have two children, 15 and 9 years old, who are my light. I am employed in the USCG, a job that can be very demanding, sometimes requiring me being away from home weeks at a time. I’ve been in the Guard 10 years now. I am a resentful, frustrated individual, who is no longer sleeping well or feeling at all satisfied with my life and choices I’ve made. I drink more than ever, hate going to work only to then not want to go home to have to put on a smile and suppress how I feel.
I am able to support my family on what I earn alone, but just barely. I am one financial problem away from real trouble. My credit cards are often maxed out; I watch a payment made only provide a small amount over the interest accrued, until the next’s month’s bill.
Before I was married I remember talking with my wife, and she agreed with me that we should be partners, 50/50. I doubt she’ll remember, but I still do.
My daughter was born, and we were both unskilled workers, playing “pass the baby” for a while to make ends meet. I thought she was gone too much, we actually spent so little time together that once I stopped by her work when she was at home and checked her schedule. My checking up on her has had repercussions, but my previous marriage helped me to be insecure, and I knew someone at her work was interested in her. Let me be clear — I believe our marriage to be 100% faithful to this day. If it weren’t, I could not stay. There is nothing quite like catching your first wife in the act to prevent that. I may have been insecure enough to check up on her schedule to put myself at ease, but I was a fairly naive 22 year old.
Once, when she was not home by 2am (the store closed at midnight) I was so distraught and worried that I put my little girl in a stroller and started walking to a payphone to call her — she pulled up when I was just leaving. I was so worried that she’d been assaulted or that our car had broken down, I was going to help. I later found out the store had been doing inventory, and the manager had kept her late. Life can really suck without a phone or two cars.
We realized that this could not last, so I started to go to college and work, while she worked part time. This lasted a while, and I even tried to be a stay at home dad / student. Money got tighter, and my old independent contractor job (cleaning carpets) offered some quick cash. Before I knew it, I was working full time again, and still going to school. Enter the world of student loans. What a life saver — now I didn’t have to study and watch my girl, as my wife could stay at home.
Flash forward a couple of years, I’m still in college, and my little girl is going to be in Kindergarten. I am starting to think that my financial partner is going to return, what a relief. This is so awesome, I need her help to finish my degree, as student teachers do not get paid, and I had two semesters in which I couldn’t day work. Nope. Not gonna happen. She wants another baby. She tells me she wanted to wait until my daughter was in school full time so she could focus on one child at a time. I did not say no, and we conceived another. Her reasoning seemed sound, but our finances made the timing poor.
Add in a new factor — we move to a new state. I had two major reasons for moving — 1) I was running from my life before being a parent (it’s funny how stuff can catch up to you, if it caught up with me I would not be able to provide, much less be around), and 2) her sister was in a bad place, we couldn’t help monetarily, and it was having an effect on our lives — so we left.
New state, new college — my parents said “come to our house, we’ll put you up while you finish your degree and get on your feet”. Awesome — I’ll get to be a teacher, the loans will provide enough for expenses in my parents’ house while I student teach. We make it there and get settled, I find part time work, and head to the college. Oops — degree plans don’t jive. Seems like the state I was in considers elementary to be K through 8 (I planned on being a middle school science teacher) and the new state considers elementary to be K-6. Finish up my degree? More like start over. 3 years needed for certificate if I want to teach 8th grade science, 2 and 1/2 if I haul butt…….I tried. I really did. Signed up for classes, and dove in. Meanwhile she’s showing more and more — as I felt I was not able to provide, 27 years old and living at my parent’s house with my five year old and expecting wife, with 2 plus years of college to go, and I could not return to previous state, as I had no money…….
I cannot express how financially helpful joining the Military has been. I have grown professionally, finished my Bachelor’s, advanced to E-6, and have been able to provide. A decade of gainful employment has been awesome. But I’m still doing it on my own. We are still paycheck to paycheck, with more debt, and more toys.
When my son reached the first grade, I thought we’d made it through – and she would join in. Nope. The public schools are terrible, and home schooling is the only answer. Okay, sure, whatever. My job, and career path, doesn’t help the situation, as we have moved 5 times in my 10 years of service. Before our last move, she told me that she would get a job, or start school, something. We purchased our first home, in the best school district around, spending 30 to 50K more for the nice area; it’s good to feel my children are safe. Both of my children are repeating a year of schooling, to catch up to this district’s levels, and address gaps in their knowledge. Guess home school wasn’t such a great plan. Job? College? Nope.
My home isn’t at Donna Reed status, nor do I expect it to be. She does do the minimum amount of labor to keep the house running, and usually puts effort forward to making dinner. I’d guess about ¼ of our meals are still take-out, or heat and eat. Laundry gets washed, but usually not put away. Often, cleaning is done during the weekend or when I’m home – which to me seems strange. Either I am in the way while cleaning, and feel like I should pitch-in, or perhaps it’s a display of her effort. I wish it would happen when I was at work (and the kids at school) so that we’d have more time together when I’m home early, or when the kids make it home. But even if the house was perfect; it is still not what I thought we had agreed on.
Do I dare vent about money? There is never enough. I used to go shopping with her, but I was the limiter. If I questioned if we needed a purchase choice, I got grief for it. Stuff for the walls, pets, or other stuff which I considered frivolous – I don’t go anymore. It’s not worth it, I do not wish to argue about purchases – in fact, when I made quite a bit less – I gave up, handed over my paycheck and had her to figure it out. Oops. I am thankful that she isn’t into high-dollar fashion, and does not “need” the latest gizmo, but if I question a purchase, I get reminded about how thrifty her shopping is.
The “closer” – with our latest move, I took advance pay — 3 months worth, to help buy our new home. This puts quite a limit on our funding, and is paid back over 12 months. We have the house, and the bills are being paid, mostly. Then the heater needs replaced. Okay, we refinance her car and get new ac/heat installed. Then the h2o heater needs replaced, and we charge it. I know I have some cash coming in, and we agree to pay the water heater it off when it shows. Does it get paid in full? Nope. Seems she needed about 400 to go shopping with. With the bill not paid off, then I feel like F*** it, might as well use the card for other stuff, and now its last two payments have been late. She tells me that she canceled a web movie service, and I see its recurring charge a week later, and can see she watched a show on it today. Arrggghhhh!! Come on! Really?
So I tried to talk to her, and asked her to help with a job. She tells me that it will be better when the advanced pay is repaid, and “it is what it is”. I tried to explain how I felt, and that it seemed she shut me down when I try to tell her how I feel. She tells me that that’s what I do to her, shut her down when she talks to me, and the tears start up. She mentions me checking up on her over a decade ago, and how that keeps her from wanting a job. She says she’s sorry – well sorry doesn’t fix broke. This isn’t going to fix anything and I switch off.
I do not claim to be perfect; I have made numerous mistakes with my spending choices, mostly fixing up worthless cars. And I have a horrid memory for details, I’m sure I done more harm than good. My question is why do I have to do all of the outside work? We don’t have to have more money, we can make do – but where is my financial partner? Why does she get to decide what she wants to do with a job and I have to have mine? My dream was to be a teacher, and have the same schedule as my children, home in the summer, enjoying and watching them grow. My father was in the Military, and I didn’t want to miss as much as he had. Now I am living that life. Why do I allow myself to feel like a walking ATM? What can I do? I am slightly resentful. Now, if you can, take me out of the picture, and think of the children. What example am I sending them? Why should my daughter excel at school – all she needs to do is what mom does, right? How am I to pay for college? Twice? – and the pain grows.
What am I going to do? When I advanced a while ago, I started sending some of my pay to a separate account; I had grown tired of asking for what I felt I earned. When I received my latest raise, it too was siphoned off. Step one: no longer allow any additional funds to go to our joint account – done (this includes when the advance pay is repaid). Step two: cease and desist all credit options that are in both of our names. Step three: prepare for the emotional and credit fallout, and brace for what’s next. Have I considered what the results of my actions will be? I like to think so, but I cannot predict or prepare for every outcome.
I do not think this is too much, after 15 years of marriage, 10 of which have been 100% funded by me. The fallout makes me nervous, I do not want a divorce, and I need a 50/50 partner. I realize that she currently does not have the same earning ability as I do, but I hope she joins me, instead of continuing to be dependent. This is where I hope you’ll chime in. Am I overreacting? Asking too much? I realize what is at stake, but cannot keep this up. Any advice?
Mike,
I can feel your frustration and pain in wanting an equal partner and not a financial drain.
A word of caution about hiding money from your spouse. That could be considered in a negative light by a judge if it comes to divorce. Feel free to have a “my” account and an “our” account and limit access, but actually hiding assets might not be the best plan if a divorce comes to asset discovery. Judges don’t like hidden assets and tend to be punitive towards those who do that.
I don’t know what else you can do to motivate your wife to contribute financially. Set clear boundaries, start canceling the movies on demand, credit cards, etc. start with a clear plan on what you want to do and it sounds like you’ve got your plan laid out.
If you want to try to save the marriage, tell her what you expect and give her a timeline. If the timeline and expectations are not met follow through with whatever consequences you deem appropriate.
Your big problem will be the children, if you pressed this to divorce, you might expect the house and custody to go to your wife along with spousal support and child support from your pocket. You will probably end up paying and probably seeing your kids less.
Start using the phrases like,”we could do that if you had a job” or just “no we cannot afford that”. I assume that you’ve already been doing that, and its at least good that your wife doesn’t have an expensive shoe habit or other spending issues.
Focus on what you can do and what is in your sphere of influence.
If I had the ability to convince my wife to get a job I wouldn’t be in the same situation as you, but you are not alone and I hope you can find a path forward. You’ve come a long way in providing for your family, and its not too much to expect something from your partner. All decisions, actions or lack of action have consequences, make it clear what those consequences are for not contributing financially.
Best of luck and you are not alone.
JSG
I so Hear everything you are saying
I was in the AF fro 22 years In that time my wife (for 18 of those 22) had exactly 3 jobs , sub teaching in NJ an exchange ( retail store) job and another sub teaching gig. None lasted more than a year. When we met She had a F/T job but was hopeing to become a Phyisical Theripist. I supported her in that goal. Ok Go To school BEFORE we have kids. 2 Years of pleading to no avail and then. ” I want a kid” well as a man you know how that ended. kid #1 ( great kid BTW 16 now) SO NOW she decideds to go to school. Hmmm Schools hard when trying to raise a Kid ( no Kidding) in the mean time she changes her mind and wants to be a teacher. Ok Go for it. well several PCS’s later ( moves to other states/nations to you civilians) and 10 years go by and she FINALLY gets a Degree…. in ENglish( Not even a teaching degreee in english) So We make our ( I thought) Final move. we lived there for 7 YEARS!! and still no F/t Job and only sporadic PT sub teaching jobs. Now it’s time to retire on E-7 pay. All the time I am begging for her to go to work.” I want another baby” well here I am 50 years old (joined late married later)with a 4 Y/O ( Great kid but not what I/We had originally [planned). sold the house, MOved ( on our dime and that is what we “needed ” to do ) I took a high stress job that I almost killed myself I was so miserable. I left it and am in therepy. I have a PT job at Home depot. Could I do better , Probably , But I am tired of being the ATM machine and if I make life uncomfortable enough then Maybe Just maybe she will get serious about getting a job. I will not let my children suffer.
I have fallen out of love with my wife over this I have not told her because she does truely love me but when the finacial burden is on me 100 % it is hard not to look at her and wonder what my/our retirment could have been if she would have actually started work even 5 years ago.
I DO NOT WANT A DIVORCE. I just want my wife to take interest in contributing in our finacial present and her financial future. So that maybe , Just maybe I can look at her with respect and not the dependant she is. and to fall back in love with her
The one thing I’ve learned from my painful marriage is that you cannot change your spouse. They have to want to change. I know it’s so frustrating to be out of control. The only person you ever really have control over is yourself. It’s good that you have someone to talk to about your feelings. You wrote about them so well. Maybe your spouse would probably be surprised to hear your deep feelings. Maybe you can write them in a letter to her. Maybe splitting will ultimately make you feel happy. Once those feelings of love and respect go, it’s very hard to get them back. Sometimes we mistake being used to someone and having a history with someone for love. I’m so sorry for your pain.
Thanks for your support. I lost my temper with her today and am sure I did more harm than good I will see if she will go to marriage counceling to try to get ot the root of our problems. I am no saint (neither of us cheated/hit physically) verbally though I have been so frustrated at her lack of drive and my constantly beeing forced into action I KNOW are not in the families best interest that I have said hurtful things. My wife is not a B***ch and is very loving and supportive but the one area I NEED her support is in the “getting a Job catagory”. I’m tired of doing the heavy lifting financially when she has done none
I’m sure you are a nice, caring man, but yelling and saying hurtful things out of frustration is not good. I hope you two can go to mediation. Just having a referee there to keep things from getting heated may help; hat way you can both get your feelings out constructively. She doesn’t sound mentally unbalanced like so many of the women talked about on this site. I hope she listens and agrees to mediation.
If anyone is mentally unbalanced it is me. I bottle things hoping they will self correct up to the point of exploding. I try to “understand” her point of view. I regret the things I say as soon as they come out but things cannot be unsaid. we need help and will get it. As my previous post said I just want her to get a job and help out so WE can enjoy things not ME worrying that we will have enough $$ security to afford what she wants and then I can change the “she” to “we” . She is not “high maintenance” but the few time we did have 2 incomes it was such a relief to me thanks again. of all of the stuff “we “own i could fit what i consider “mine” in the back of my car (hyundai accent) and would miss none of the other stuff. Kinda like full metal jacket . She gets to eat the donut while I work it off
Counseling. Find a good one. You and your wife have lots of layers to peel back. Sometimes the working/finance things are very important, but they are actually only a symptom of deeper fears and anxieties. Good luck and I mean that.
thanks I/we will. I would love to get our relationship back to where it was even a year ago. This move to GA was the straw that broke my back. I haven’t felt any real longing/loving feelings toward my wife since then. MOre on that will come out in counceling. Unlike most on this sight I do really want our relationship to work and do not feel it’s hopeless. I want to be heard in this relationship when big decissions are made.. Including her working. just having you respond helps and that someone is listening thanks
You’re welcome. She will too. It’s just harder when there are emotions involved. You’re right. I doubt it’s hopeless.
JSG, thanks for you advice, and I truly hope divorce isn’t the answer. I will not hide any money, I couldn’t if I wanted to…she watches the account too close. I’m just not going to let any more into our shared account. The timeline and expectations conversation will come when the where the money questions come. Closed the first credit card today, have not been watching it close enough, it was at 7200 — ouch, but it will only get smaller now. Thanks again for the support, Mike
The world as I know it.
The dear wife and I met in college and were just friends. I went back for a Master’s degree when we started living together and we got married during my masters degree she was one semester from completing her bachelors degree in math/statistics.
I get accepted to a phd program across the country, we move, barely able to afford crappy housing is a dangerous neighborhood. She doesn’t get a job and she doesn’t complete her degree, after much arguing for 4 years she finishes her degree but never gets a job.
I graduate and get a good academic position across the country again, the move is easier this time, not completely broke.
Now its been 15 years since I finished the phd and decent employment in the private sector, and 20 years since we married, and I can count on 2 fingers the number of jobs that she has had. One at a call center, making cold sales calls, a second at a large tax service firm. Neither paid enough to cover the cost of the car she drove to work, the gas, the insurance, the maintenance. Both were simply jobs that got me to shut up about her not working and not having a career.
Jobs that she threw in my face while she was there, since I would agree they were crappy jobs, but not the career type positions she might pursue.
Each job lasted months, not even a full year.
I ask about her job search on occassion, every few months, but I get the same BS answers for years. She has a classic abilty to apply for jobs that she won’t get, and yet won’t apply for things that she is qualified for. I ask about her ambitions, goals, wants, and there is nothing. She is a hanger on, nothing distinct from my plans.
We went to counseling on my request a few years ago, she was tested for depression and thyroid disorders, nothing wrong physically. Its a simple conclusion, why work when the husband provides? She can “choose” to not work, but I apparently don’t get the same choice unless my next bed is underneath the local freeway overpass.
Meanwhile I avoid the conflict for the most part, so have been slowly watching as the frog gets boiled. Thanks to TomG for that phrase and perspective, it fits. For some reason I just assumed that all adults would want to pursue a meaningful set of career goals and make a difference in the world on a daily basis. Wow was I wrong. Just because I have a personal reason to get out of the bed in the morning to make a difference, doesn’t mean that work ethic has been transfered to or is even seen by the dear wife.
Might I mention the fact that we have no kids, and she has spent the majority of her time caring for dogs, abandoned puppies and whatever cute critters cross our paths.
So, what next? I do what I always do. I move forward.
The last few years have been a path to remove debt, build an asset base and move to a state without the possibility of alimony for life, for a “long term” marriage of almost 20 years.
We now live in Texas, with limited chance for permanent alimony. In 3 months we will have the 6 month residency needed to file for divorce. We no longer have “our” accounts only, we have “my” accounts where the payroll goes and I move the $ as needed for our expenses.
I’ve now got a list of assets and liabilities to hand to the dear wife once I can file for divorce.
A few years ago I still wanted to know why. I’m now past trying to find an explaination for “why no ambition?”, “why no job?” or even the “what the f**k are you doing wasting your life?”.
I don’t have a partner, I have a parasite. All I can do now it figure out the easiest way to remove it.
It’s simply remarkable how there are some people that see fit to be parasites through being entitled. Nobody is entitled to anything.
Whether you’re male or female, it’s best to absolutely, positively, make sure that the person you’re involved with is NOT one who feels entitled to be “taken care of”. At the first sign of problems, it’s best to take action and lay down the law in terms of expectations. Easier said than done, but I really think that a common theme in these situations is that the entitled, extracting behavior is allowed to go on for too long. Maybe the spouse being taken advantage of is delusional in thinking its temporary, or might be confilct avoidant.
A person can get a great education, work hard, build retirment savings, etc – only to have things taken away by a lazy, selfish spouse. The choice of spouse on takes on (particularly for guys, for a variety of reasons) can either:
A) allow you to reach your financial potential by best case being supportive, or if not, at least not get in the way; or
B) Completely destroy you despite your best efforts
Choose wisely, never wear blinders, and take action at the first red fleg.
You are exactly right. Make sure you understand (you might even sense) that you have a partner who can play the part of the baby seal on the ice, whip up tears, passive aggressive, or can simply beat you into submission well before you say “I do.” The trick is being honest with yourself if you suspect this trouble on the horizon.
In my case I partially blame myself for simply loving the idea being in love with my wife and ignoring the signs. I worked hard, took little risks (meaning I often stayed at jobs I often hated for the sake of security) and simply did the best I could with what I had until the resentment overtook me. Meaning the disfuction came back to bite me and propel my wife into the arms of another person who could now take care of her, only with the security of our home we owned free and clear, and half of everything else I broke my ass to provide and opportunities I gave up to make sure everyone was taken care of.. Talk about the ultimate betrayal…….
I’m now casually dating and can see things very clearly. Woman who were also duped (other side of the story) and those that would prefer a “white horse” variety of man in their lives. I call that initial date “one and done.”
Boys are not taught to protect themselves emotionally for this danger, and are actually taught to subordinate their emotions, values and beliefs to their partner in exchange for some type of ideal (non existant) relationship that will eventually get better over time, later to regret and morn things in that relationship that never were. (Opening eye stage).
In my case I really think my STBE still does not get it (more denial on my part I’m sure) because she still calls me (from her boyfriend’s house) for advice on how to (get ready now…….) invest the money I was ordered to give her as part of our settlement. It it appears she’s a person who has the same tendencies as people who have sex with dead people…………………………..AND for all that behavior I am rewarded with the title over “verbal abuser.” People, when you have a partner coming at you emotionally like Freddy Kruger there comes a point where “reason and logic” must sound like the teacher on the Peanuts cartoon…..wha wha wha…………………….because my feelings never really counted, but the outcome was all but assured. It was her who had to suffer all these years with a partner who should have just shut his mouth and done what he was told.
As my counselor often says to me: ….: “Tom, assume you are a very angry person. Who wouldn’t be?”
I’m afraid however that these tendencies cannot be appreciated until you have been dragged down the road for the ride of your life.
JSG, I hear Texas is nice, perhaps I’ll go there someday.
Dr Tara J. Palmatier, thank you for this site. Gathering my ideas has hepled me realize where I am at and where I think I need to go.
The rest of us, wow. At least I know I’m not alone, and things can (read: will get) be worse before they change.
I love my wife but I am not IN love with my wife. I have become resentful and angry. We have been married for 18 years and I thought we had agreed that she would work at some point. She has yet to get a significant job. I was in the mIlitary when we met and we had discussed that when I retired she would be the Primary bread winner ( she is 12 years younger than me) and I would have the secondary job. I have been retired for 2 years. NOw Instead of a job we had a second child ( at her begginng) 3 Cats ( At her begging ( a dog ( that I absolutely did not want at her begging) relocated from a house we were buying to another state renting for more than 300 dollars more than our mortgage was ( because we had to find a place that took pets). I am underemployed for our outgo ( beleive me we are NOT living large). I took a job that I knew I was ill suited and I almost killed myself ( still in therapy) yet she just will not go get ANY job. I so would like to loose this resentment and anger and gain RESPECT and fall back in love with my wife. I am living exactly where I do not want to be in a house I hate with no support system. I was in a community band where I used to live and I do not have that here the closest is 1 hour away . I feel that I have had everything I care about stripped from me for her happiness I am completely and utterly miserable
I have to admire all of you men for staying in the marriage game for so long. I should have known for sometime that we would ultimately end up at this cross roads. When we dated everything was easier until I wanted us to get a place together. I stayed at his mom’s house for about a year hoping that him and I would both work on getting a place together. He had no intentions on moving out so it was up to me to make the first move. I moved into my own 1 bedroom apartment while he still stayed at his mom’s. When I told him how I felt about us, crying, and not understanding why he wouldn’t want to make that next step with me he eventually relented. The only problem was he simply wasn’t ready. Even at 31 years of age and with no driver’s license, he wasn’t ready to man up and be in a relationship with me. And that should have been my cue from those early days of pushing him to become an adult that this will probably always be the role I would have to play. Its frustrating because there are qualities there that make him fantastic…patience, great father (and I will try everything in my power to keep his son in his life), helpful when asked but the overall retirement from life in general makes all those good qualites appear non existent. It’s heartbreaking to see someone who is young and able not really want anything from life. He just merely exists from day to day not really striving for anything. I just can no longer spend more of my life pushing someone to DO anything when I have plenty of work on my own life to do.
He sounds depressed. You tried to make him into what you need him to be. That never works It’s time for him to step up to the plate and help himself. He needs to see a professional to find out why he has no ambition in life. Counseling and maybe even medication. He seems like a decent guy otherwise.
Dr Tara,
I realize that I am coming “way late” to this discussion so I can appreciate it if you or any of the commentators have exhausted the subject. However, I just found and read the article, “The Real Reason Your Wife Doesn’t Want To Work”…What a God send! I am a 59 year old male. My wife, whom I love, is 56. I am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor and used to be in ministry. My wife and I married 14 years ago. This is my only marriage and here second. She has 2 children…now…a 31 year old daughter, married and doing well, and a 23 year old son who is struggling. Both are fine young adults; the daughter is completely independent, the son still relies on our financial help. The children’s father is deceased..suicide several years ago. Even when he was alive, I participated in their stable active lives more than he did. We are living off of my income. We have large credit card debts, the usual expenses and we are very slowly putting away money for retirement but we are financially strapped. My wife won’t work. We are suffering in many ways because of this. My wife is a college graduate, she started two MA programs before I met her, one in education and one in Technical Writing, the Tech Writing degree she received straight A’s, she never completed the Thesis. She wants to “write novels”. It took her 12 years to write one that, “needs a little more editing”. She has done some freelance writing that is currently earning her $250 per month. She, “won’t do anything (work) unless (she) truly likes it. I’m at my wits end. I want her to read the article but I am concerned she will just respond angrily. We have had arguments about this and I have criticized her. I have apologized but it seems I have “spent my capital” and so when we discuss the subject she throws my past anger in my face…nothing constructive happens. Your advise? I am willing to pay for it!
Chuck
Chuck
Sorry to read yet one more story like ours. The fact is, it’s not going to get any better.
If you want to hire the Doc, check out https://shrink4men.com/services/
Decent post, however I (the woman) am the one who Wants a job, but my husband is against it. He owns his own business and has a very traditional outlook on relationships, which is fine, but we don’t even have kids yet! We also need to start planning on how we will set ourselves up financially (2nd income, duh?) but he just wants me to play wife in the bedroom as well as mother to him, when it comes to cooking, cleaning everything, scouting around for hidden socks, boxers, wet towels, doing and putting away both mine and his laundry because he “just doesnt do that”, etc.. So, in this case, what do I do? I’ve tried talking to him (in a casual way, serious way, desperate to help kind of way) many times about it, but its either like talking to a brick wall or a bowl in a china shop. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated!
-Nikki
This article describes my marriage exactly.
Join the fraternity…….Your wife is lazy, entitled and abusive and the quicker you accept that the better off you will be. In her own wharped mind YOU are holding her back, and brother, you will pay the price eventually. The emotional side is telling you (at times) how lucky you are to have a stay home Mom willing to give up her life to make everyone elses so much better. However, ask yourself a question. Is it really? Does her frittering her time away benefit anyone but her? Really?
Children’s educations, retirement? Come on! Reverse the roles and you might find yourself strapped to a gurny in a mental hospital.
The point is this is not acceptable for you and you (most men) have no basis to object to it.
Look around……I work with woman with 2,3,4 children and they hold down jobs and everythibng else it takes to participate in a marriage and family. This is NOT setting a good example for your children – trust me. Nobody in my hose works, and being in the final stages of divorce sealed my fate because i have to maintain her and the children to a lifestyle they are accustomed to. Which is I pay for everything the rest of my life, and then some considering i have to maintain life insurance in case I die. So, I am enslaved even from the grave. Get it?
Want another window into how bad it can be? I have significant health problems which could but me on disability. THE COURT DOES NOT CARE!!!!!!!! I can have it reduced, but it will leave me with a few hundred a month to live on, pay COBRA and medications……In other words, I’m doomed and wifey sits on the couch thinking of ways her and her attorney can deliver the death blow……..
If your married less then 10 years…..RUN for your life.
Good luck!
Thank GOD i found this article. My resentment has been growning for 2-3 years and my anger is always on a slow “boil”. I’m not going to bore anyone with my situation becuase it reflects many of the ones already posted. My deepest fear is ending it and being seperated from my two daughters (6 & 8). I really don’t want them having seriour “Daddy” issues thinking I abandoned them. But there are days I want to put my foot down and seperate from someone who doesn’t won’t to hold a 9-5 and sleeps in the other bedroom.
I fear sometime this year I will have to put my foot down, go my seperate way and fight for custody. I’m sure I would lose the custody battle…. but then my daughters will always know I fought for them and I love them dearly.
Doesn’t sound like that great of a home life. Been there and can sense your aggravation, abandonment, and loneliness. Don’t know about that sleeping in another room deal, but from my experience, my worst nightmare came true when my STBE told me she was having a “relationship” with another man. I have two sons. One is in college in AZ, and the other is a Jr. in HS and my wife rescues animals as a hobby.
Bottom line. Up until very recently she had been having and affair with the animal control officer in our town THE DOG CATCHER! We will be officially divorced May 6th (next week).
I’d look into what that other bedroom is all about. Just prepare yourself for the possibility of something you might not want to know. I NEVER would have believed she could do that. Was I wrong! BTW, go with your instincts and start thinking in terms of protecting yourself.
Good luck brother
I’m going to file the petition for divorce tomorrow. 1 May 2013, my 6 month residency requirement being fulfilled in Harris county Texas.
The dear wife is/was a woman who has made the unilateral decision that she need not pursue a life outside the home.
I cut the formality of this relationship off in late February, telling her that I was filing divorce as of tomorrow and we’ve been working through the agreements and details.
Its been almost 20 years of me waiting for her to grow up and get a fucking job, no kids, no excuses. Just one more emotional Cinderella without the ability to grow up and take responsibility for the fact that she is an adult and needs to earn her way in a cold cold world that views blood suckers like the vermin they are.
I was patient, but apparently I’m not Ghandi. I’ve seen this moment for 18 years, I’m just patient for 20 years. I’m the rube who thought it might get better in time.
This is the tactical nuke I called in on my own position, split it all down the middle, 50/50, just so that I don’t need to look into this parasite’s eye’s another moment, particularly when retired. Its all better shortly.
cheers all,
-JSG
Hi
The call from my Attorney that my wife engage counsel was a shock. See, even until the end I held out hope she might see the light, get a job and toe the line. Denial at its finest.
She swung from one tree to the other BEFORE she engaged counsel, and like the story goes, found a guy willing to help her and coach her every step of the way with his penis.
As it turned out, this ape likes to read her text messages and emails when she’s not looking. (Maybe he went overboard with his advise) Or better, text foul language from her phone to me pretending to be her. Oh, and call me at work as well. . To her credit, she did recognize what she had done and broke up with the ape. Then out come the tears…….need I say more.
You seem relieved yet numb. Our youngest son (17) actually called his Mother out and pointed to how unfair it was for me breaking my hump every day only to get rewarded with this.
He told me that he admired me which means everything in the world to me.
May 6th is my final hearing. It was so cut and dry I submit an affidavit not to appear. What’s the point? Let her go if she wants to. She certainly has the time.
I won’t tell you that you did the right thing because even though you are filing, your guts are turning. I am also red hot angry at the whole 21 year story (some really good times mixed in). Its sort of helping me to the finish line.
Stay strong
I foolishly remarried to a woman who was getting $1000.00 dollars a month and had a paid off home from her ex-husband so she could sit on her rear and enjoy only working 3 hours a day. She always said her ex was an awful person. I don’t believe that anymore after I got to know how she was really like. It takes a long time to see the real b _itch.
The first time she got crazy we divorced. Less than a year married. I just have too much bad experience to tolerate that kind of treatment ever again. I unfortunately had 19 previous years’ of bad experience.
I was saved any more torture at her hands and the first ex-husband; well you can imagine his relief of not needing to pay alimony to her ever again.
Final tally. 1 Man saved from being an ATM, 1 man with his sanity intact and a little wiser.
My #1 new rule for marriage. Only marry a woman who makes equal or more money than you do. Everything else will work itself out equitably in a divorce. If she doesn’t make the money, only date. Because being the lottery jackpot for a selfish Woman is not in my future plans ever again.
Oh yea, the mean you know what was forced into nursing school and a full time job after I was gone. So you see, there can be happy endings after all. Hard work and responsibility might straighten her out in a few years, what do you think?
Yeah
Everyone has a storyline. Sounded like her’s was a good one, at first. It will be somebody else’s turn to deal with that soon enough.
These people smash through other people’s lives, taking what they want (forget need) and then blaming the stooge dumb enough to throw away their own needs and common sense to give them everything they want to fullfil our need for a rational, mature relationship.
In my case, I choose to accept bad company over no company at all.
Awhile ago I got sick and had to quit work for awhile. My wife has a phd and used to teach at a Univercity in our town before we got married.. I run a tree company and work in the hot sun all day. I used my money to buy rental properties and paid off all the debt. She was suppose to just buy food. However she used rental income to do that and I have to spend my income and time to fix up rental properties and don’t get to collect. I have started back to work but have around 50,000 now in medical bills which I will pay. We have no children and she sits around all day and watches net flicks. Now that I see what she does I’m very resentful. I just let her have it and so now she’s says she can find a job in a different city. I own several places here and she thinks I should sell everything so she can move somewhere and find a job of her dreams. Right…. I told her I could sell my rentals and live comfortably and not have to have an investimet that costs me money with no return since she spends it. She is so out of touch with how everything is in the world right now because she dosn’t have to get out there and make ends meet. I come from a working class family and will always work, however sometimes I feel like I could use a litltle help with all the stress life puts on us. Anyway I’m just tired. I need to pray a little harder..lol. I guess being sick and seeing what life sitting around all day was like made me a littlle envious when I know she could be pulling in over 100k a year if she would get a job,
Mike
Sorry for your health issues. I am also the bread winner in our family, and my soon to be ex graduated from a very good school with highest honors, and is a certified science teacher who did not work a day for the 22 years we are/were married.
I did EVERYTHING to help her get back to work, until it got so bad we really didn’t like one another very much because (do some soul searching) we did not share the same values.
We can write our little hearts out on this site, but the bottom line was I was WAY TOO NICE supporting her for all that time. The final insult was an affair she now blames me for creating because I was emotionally detached, and now her ex boyfriend for praying on her weakness I was told I created………Wrap your heads around that readers…..lol
Now that we are literally days away from the final court date, she has put on the charm campaign and regrets what happened, but will not apologize for anything……..I have a great attorney who got me a very fair deal, but she got a home (free and clear) $150K in cash, and half my retirement savings to buy out of lifetime alimony.
I pay over $1K/ month child support, and during our last “talk” she told me that I knew full well she could not run a house on that child support money…………I told her that she wasn’t supposed to and that the $50K we imputed as her income was for real. She now MUST work..ha ha ha . Meaning, shes responsible for a large percentage of the children’s tuitions, some medical, plus her own COBRA health benefits, which she is completely unable to pay for since she has not even attempted getting a job since we signed our marital settlement agreement……SO, this weekend she turned on the charm and flat out asked me to pay 100% of the children’s tuition for the next two years while she looks for a job……I reminded her she has had 22 years to do that, and that her work habits had nothing to do with me anymore (No longer my dog to walk…)
You have a tough one friend, but you have every right to feel hung out to dry, and with time it will only get worse. Sorry, but you have a lot of property and marital assets. Stop buying and investing and start soul searching.
GET OUT!
It has only been 8 months since i said I do. My wife had quit her job two weeks after we got married becuaase she said that she wanted to teach me a lesson about walking out of the house after a heated argument. I hate the fact that she doesnt work. All she do all day is sit at home and read, cook (about 2 to 3 times a week), and complain about how bad I am as a husband. Everyday I see and meet women who I wish that I wouldve talked to or even had married. My marriage is a waste. How can one deal with a woman who doesnt want to work? My wife is a christian and she says that the bible states that a woman doesnt have to work. I disagree. i say that she needs to be my helpmate and help me pay some of these bills. Its like I am knocking on hard wall. We dont have any children. And I tell her all the time, you need to start working so that when we have children, the strain of paying for them will be less on me. My mother worked, sister, and grandmother. What make her crazy ass so special?
I pray and pray for wisdom on what to do. I am getting close to just leaving her and moving on with my life with someone new. I know a couple of women who would love to have a husband who works and treat them well. All I want is a little help from her but that is what i get for marrying a lazy woman. I should have known that she wasnt the working type. Here it is, i have a masters degree and my wife doesnt even have a college degree. She never had completed anything in life. Red flags like these, I shouldve paid attention to. Now I am thinking about divorcing and moving on. At least I would be less stressed.
Willie,
Leave before there are children!
You want a partner, in all things, not the disappointment that you are experiencing.
You might be a nice guy, look up “no more mister nice guy”
tell her the boundaries, or tell her to leave!
cheers bro!
I would see an attorney, too. Who is she to punish you in this way? I am not sure what the agreement was before you married, but I let my abusive husband know I am NOT going to shlep our children off to some day care/parent/neighbor/kid down the block until we have raised them. I left work at 9 months pregnant. Began a new job when that baby turned four. All the while the house was spotless: I did walls/ceilings/cabinets/light fixtures, etc. And he put on a good 10 pounds from eating the meals I prepared. He didn’t do a thing at home. I edged and cut the lawn, too.
You two are supposed to work at the relationship together. She is turning into the controller fast. Get out now before you have to split property, pay her spousal support, child support, etc.
This isn’t love at all. My brother is married to someone like that and he became a raging alcoholic. He is 55 and looks 90. As newly marrieds, she would allow him in the house after work on payday, grab the check – have a HUGE fight and kick him out. Like clockwork. Happened every two weeks.
He doesn’t look as if he enjoys life at all. Threw himself into work and gallons of beer. :*(
Good luck. Teach her a lesson and file for divorce. (What were you thinking when you married? You couldn’t love her without a license?)
🙂
Run, do not walk to the nearest exit. Do _NOT_ have children with this woman unless you want 18 years of child support. If this is how she treats you now, it will only be worse using children as little pawns in her game.
I spent almost 20 years with a woman who made the decision to not pursue employment, we had no children, she just simply didn’t feel the need to work. I felt exactly “hatred” you described about why does she get to make this decision. Don’t make the same mistake I did by trying to “work it out” over 20 years of my life wasted and now in the process of carving everything that I _worked_ for in half.
There are women out there who somehow think that it is their decision to make whether or not they contribute to the family financially, and hopefully they find men who agree with them. However, I agree with you and TomG, step away from the lazy crazy entitled ones! Throw her back in the ocean for someone else, its only been 8 months, you can probably get an annulment and not even need to go through the divorce process.
best of luck!
JSG
Wow. This is exactly what has happened to my marriage. To the T. But my wife just recently split up with me and said she no longer is in love with me. Unfortunately she has no Job, and no money of her own, and we cant afford divorce. Plus we have a kid that she stays at home with all day. I yelled and tried every way of communicating, but she never got a job. Now she says its too late for me, but i cant just leave her. She had no family, she was in foster care, and I dont want to leave her on the street. She is still dependent on me, and i need to cut her off. But i dont know how. She is trying to get a job, but will she do it is the question. Should i set a time limit before i just leave? If i have no chance to rekindle our marriage, I wont be used as a source of life for someone who doesnt love me. I need help.
Oh my!!!! Get out as quickly as possible. I hung in with a LOSER for almost 22 years and all I have to show for it are several more years of work before I retire. The latest is my divorce will be final on the 29th. As of a week ago, I have been getting really nice, well thought out, kind emails from her dancing around the fact that as of Monday she has no job (yet), no health insurance, and nothing to fall back on to pay her 38% of our son’s tuitions. Ladies and Gents…..she’s screwed only for the fact that she still does not understand that she has the capacity to earn enough to actually have it made. She has a house debt free. A slug of cash in the bank (tax free payout of alimony), a nice 401K plan….and two cars. Again ALL DEBT FREE!!!!
I am dating a woman who’s husband was also a loser. Left her with a house leveraged with debt, credit cards, and a disabled daughter in need of good health benefits……He has not worked in 15 years. She is a school teacher making okay money who just can’t get her head around the fact that my STBX is not taking this all to seriously.
So today (48 hours before the final judgement) she flat out tells me she is “unsure” and that we should just postpone until we can “reexamine marriage.” WTF???????
Bottom line, I hold all the cards: The insurance card, the retirement card, the nondidtributable inherited trust fund (Ding Ding Ding!!!!) She also told me that now that she is paying her own car insurance, the carrier just informed her that all her speeding tickets has now qualified her for the “You are being dropped Club.” My insurance has been cut by 2/3rds because I observe rules…..Interesting. I wish her luck in growing the hell up and getting a life. She nearly ruined mine. Be strong.
I am happy for you, Tom. And, while it may be immature, I am experiencing some schadenfreude at the wall of reality your wife is about to hit.
I give it a year before she finds some other poor sap from whom to feed.
Hi
Thanks for all your encouragement, and frankly for this web site. Just so you know, I was getting text messages all night that were simply guilt trips and excuses for all the years of letting me hold the bag. The last few lines of her text accused me of holding a false storyline that I was wrong thinking her not working was the cause of our issues. I’d call it what it is and say “she refused” to work. Big difference!
She sighted ALL the wonderful opportunities she provided for our children staying home, but not ONCE did she mention how she was able to do all those wonderful things. All true by the way up until the ages of maybe 8-10 9(10-12 years ago) and even today when the are 17 and 19………….God knows, she sits at the kitchen table helping them do their college term papers and High School lessons……such BS!
Claims she always had small jobs that brought in a little money which went into her pocket, and that she never went wild shopping for herself, etc……but when it came to thousands of dollars a month for tuition, room and board and the fact that her laziness forces them to max out student loans, my answer to her is still “you are out of touch.” Being out dating other woman with children at or older than ours, totally shoots holes in her “logic.” These woman worked, kept up houses, saved money, all of that while their husbands indulged their drinking and drug habits at the families expense. Just total bunk. Her contention is still that if she worked she would then have to “do it all.” Sounds great until you ask her if she even considered trying. She just assumed i would drink beer, watch the game, and do nothing…….This from a man who would rather cut both my arms off rather than take charity from my family…….Besides, I don’t recall the day I promised anyone a rose garden. I don’t recall promising her her own bliss….she claimed that, and made me responsible for delivering the goods.
I’m really conflicted and sort of angry (today was the day), but it could not go on.
You know, I have been following this thread for over a year now, and especially your story since you are a frequent commenter, and I have to applaud your courage in walking away from what was clearly a bad relationship. I just don’t get women like your wife. Not to pat myself on the back, but I LOVE my job. I actually had to work to get my husband on board with my career since his mom was a SAHM who never held a serious job, but even he sees the value in it now that bring in my fair share and we can afford to live in comfort in NYC instead of struggling.
And the worst part of reading this thread? A lot of these women have a better education than I do! I had to work my ass off through college to get my bachelors. I would love to go to grad school, but I am certainly not going to place that burden on my husband while I go to school and let him foot the bill. And if I did, I would use that to get an even better job than the one I have.
So good for your for standing up for yourself. No one should be obligated to give someone a rose garden, as you put it.
Thanks. I think your husband is a very fortunate man to have an adult partner. I will confess that even up to the witching hour (no pun) I might have been swayed. Now that it’s over and I have that document with the gold seal, I am profoundly sad, but lighter that the insanity has been contained, and (sincere or not) validated that she actually admitted her regret over not working and helping our family through some really terrible terrible times.
Again, my test is putting the shoe on the other foot, and if our roles were reversed I’d have every expectation to be taken away to the Ha Ha Hotel.
Tomg
Agreed Frances, you, TomG, Dr. Tara and many others have been very helpful and I thank you all for all of the comments, encouragement and feedback over the past year plus. If nothing more than just the support of people who are in a similar enough situation and we could act as little sanity checks for each other.
All of the people on this thread have made me realize that I’m not the crazy one for expecting my educated and supposedly smart _soon to be ex-wife_ STBEW to be employed outside the house in a productive and paying job. Just because she was born with a vagina doesn’t make it her decision to choose to stay at home, while because I was born with a penis, its my obligation and duty to support the family financially.
I will end up paying for her living expenses for about 24 months, while she tries to get herself to a point of being self-sufficient. She already is living in another state and 2 time zones away, so we aren’t going to be running into each other at the local grocery story. The sad part is that her life just got worse, and she has zero job experience for the past 20 years. When those 24 months run out in another 19 months she will likely be moving back to live with her parents. If not, she will need to find another person to support her lifestyle, and marry them.
Justice for parents that raised her to believe that all you needed to do was to marry well, not actually do anything with your life. I heard that her father wanted to hire a lawyer and make sure that I needed to pay her alimony for life. I sent him a copy of Texas family law, where there is no such thing as permanent spousal support, thank gawd! I am paying to support her over a 24 month timeline, rather than some assets today that are slightly inconvenient to turn into cash without brokerage fees. We both agreed that her getting some support over time was better for the both of us.
She is getting half of everything, which is a pretty good chunk of flesh. Enough in post-tax dollars to exceed my maximum legal obligation even if the state ordered the highest allowed of 5 years spousal support at 20% of income. So, it would be hard to argue that she would need “support” above and beyond that if she already had that money available in a bank. However, I look at it as just money at this point, it can be earned back, and a small price to pay for the sanity I have back in my life. I no longer dread going home for the lack of interest I felt for the woman I had no respect for, I no longer feel indifference about my supposed “partner”. My dinners are healthier, my house is cleaner than its been in years and the laundry never gets delayed. I no longer need to feel the resentment for a partner who was a failure as a homemaker with a stack of dishes in the sink and as a breadwinner. I no longer care that she spends her days rescuing abandoned dogs, if that’s how she wants to spend her life its her decision and it affects only her.
So for the past several months, I’ve been happier than I’ve been in years, living alone, good job, good living situation, even the dating has been good. Apparently successful single men in their mid 40’s coming off a bad marriage are in demand out there and its not been hard to find a lovely woman’s company for a pleasant evening out. Its amazing how much more interesting someone is to talk with when they engage their world with purpose, commitment, perform actions with meaning, in short when they do things.
I too have been getting text messages from the STBEW, saying how it was my fault that I didn’t tell her what my expectations were for her employment. Wow! You don’t remember any of those conversations with a marriage counselor where I used terms like “deal breaker” or “unacceptable”? Which part of that was unclear? The good part is that while I wish her no malice, she just isn’t my problem and I can honestly say, “I don’t care” when she continues on with the crazy talk. We have no children together, so in a short 19 months, I write the last check to her, ever, and we never need to see one another again. There are a few more pieces of paper that I’m finishing and then its off to the Family Law courts where I “prove up” the case, and then its done. Divorce complete, lives divided back, finances separated. Wish I didn’t wait so long, now that’s its closer to being in the rear view mirror than off in the future.
Again, thanks to all for the ongoing support. Its been very helpful!
Hi
Yes, the last minute remorse was incredible. She thinks I’ve traded in a wife for a pen pal……Same thing. “You didn’t tell me……” Or, I had unrealistic expectations of what marriage was supposed to be. The last comment to me was : “Not everything means money to me.” What a crock…………….Duhhhhhhhhh. A frigging infant!!!!!!
Best to be done with it…..
Tomg,
Finalize the divorce and be done with her! When she runs face first into the wall of reality, it’s neither your problem nor your fault.
I’d block her texts and emails if reading them is upsetting you. To hell with her and her entitlement issues.
Best,
Dr T
Thnaks
The emails and texts are upsetting because of ALL the brinksmanship she perfected over the years. The silence, stonewalling, or changing the subject when the discussions weren’t going in her favor truly left me feeling like I was going a bit mad. The last minute confessions Monday morning were the most telling because it spoke to every dead end I found myself in over the years. It actually made me angry and focused on just letting the clock tic until it was over. The challenge I have before me will be dealing with her self imposed poverty in relationship to the financial obligations she is now legally responsible for in relation to our children. Friends are taking bets that she will never work, and although some can say I am no longer “walking that dog” the reality is, she will never give up inventing ways to not work.
Dr. Tara – Do you know of any websites called “Shrink for Women” – for women who are recovering from relationships with abusive men and the non-abusive family and friends who love them? I am in a relationship with a very mentally disturbed and abusive husband?
No, I do not, but you’re welcome to participate here and the forum (www.shrink4menforum.com). We have women who were in abusive relationships with personality disordered men as well.
Hi Terry
For whatever its worth, my ex is now in therapy. In my case she made a point of telling me this at the last possible moment, so I dismissed it as just more manipulation.
If you spouse is in denial, I can assure you the chances of him “changing” is less than zero.
For years it was my fault, my issues, all of it.
If you are be assaulted, leave…….that simple. I was assaulted on several occasions, but as a man, I hung in there and we truly ashamed to even talk about it, and when I did I was called an oversensitive baby….and worse.
Abuse is abuse is abuse…….Shrink for men tries to peel away the social bias toward men in society, and the court system….
Be careful, but if you are seeking out these sites (as I and many other s have) you recognize there is a problem.
Good luck and hugs.
Hi all
Been over a month and reality has set in with my ex. Still no real job, and the list of complaints get longer all the time.
The last conversation I had with her, she told me that my bills have gotten smaller, and her’s larger. Guess what folks, I have been saying this for years. I gave her spread sheets, control of the checkbook in hopes I’d eventually hear the nickel drop and her realize what it takes to pay for things. I guess that’s still not working out for her….. lol
To top it off, I got a call from my car insurance agent. She said that my ex called her and asked if she could stay on my policy and that I had agreed to it. Legally I’m not sure you can insure a car I don’t own for a person I am no longer related to…… So, the real story is she racked up three speeding tickets in the last year (another SURPRISE!!!!!) and as soon as my divorce went through, my insurance company could not wait to dump her into the high risk state program which is triple the normal cost. One of the speeding tickets was so bad (she was well over 15 miles over the limit, she was cited for reckless driving as well.
You see folks, she is so entitled even the rules of the road are making her life a living hell………the pattern continues.
When I confronted her with this lie, she told me: “Just go along with it and shut your mouth.”
Oh……really? As an add on, the life insurance policy the court mandated she get to cover both our boys 9I did the same) has just been ignored. Reason is her high risk status makes her life more expensive (double) to insure.
Lastly, to complete transfer of half my retirement account into her name my attorney is required to get a court order to present my broker and employer. There is a filing fee involved for both of us totaling $190. She jumped all over me and insisted it was a hardship and I should pay for it since I had to give it to her………..She is bitching about $190 to obtain a $150,000 tax free retirement package she never worked a day to contribute into.
The best part about being divorced to this woman child, is that the word “no” is now actually an entire sentence.
For you guys on the fence, just want you to know it does not seem to change even though at the last minute she broke down and admitted how difficult she made my life, etc….It was nothing but the reality that she was facing reality and given a year had done NOTHING to prepare. SURPRISE!!!!
Hi Tomg, ive been reading through your story and i really feel for you. Im in a simular situation where my misses will not work. She openly tells me that her opinion is “why should i have to do something i don’t want to do”. This EXCUSE applies to every single thing i suggest to her. My kids have all just gone full time in school and now she just watch’s tv all day until the kids come home.
I have a lot of resentment building up inside of me about this situation and i feel powerless to change the situation around. We have been together for 15 years now and she has not worked for the last 13 years.
I hope some day i build up the courage to do what you have done and turn your life around. My kids are my world and i would do anything to not tear my family apart….
what;s your opinion on my situation?
Goodluck to your new found happiness
Jase
I would need two signed affidavits from attorneys before i would give you advice… lol.
You have a very frustrating situation on your hands, and if the roles were reversed, the result would without question paint you as a lazy, entitled loafer who is sponges off his wife….bla bla bla. That is society, and there is nothing we can do about that but choose to accept it, or not. The extreme in my case was my ex was having an affair, but even then, it was not her fault because the relationship was bad. You can’t speak to this stuff because it is an abject waste of your time perpetuated by the likes of Oprah and her man hate speak.
If you press the issue, do it in terms of asking her questions. “Would you be willing to talk about our finacial situation?” Would you be willing to work to give our children assurances they can go to the college of their choice?” “Would you be willing……bla bla bla. My point is, call her out and have her say the words, or simply say no. Oh, you do have a right to ask her why? “Would you be willing to tell me why?” If she blows you off, gets angry, or clams up altogether, you have a real situation on your hands. Just be mindful that when you put actions into effect :control the checkbook. A budget. Taking back credit cards.” You have crossed the Rubicon. All I can really say is you will know what is best for you. Divorce is going to hit you hard financially, emotionally, and will open you up to some real ugliness.
Good luck Brother
I can comment from my perspective. I did almost exactly what TomG suggested, every time there was a question about finances or a vacation or spending money, I asked “how are _you_ going to pay for it?” That was the beginning of the end, and its been for the better.
This was after 17 or 18 years of asking her to get a job, I basically stopped caring that she didn’t feel it was important enough to our relationship to do the one thing that I wanted her to do, which was get a job and be a productive member of society.
There were hundreds of occasions that I tried to have a conversation about finances and money, projections for future goals and it inevitably ended with her being childish and walking out of the room or simply clamming up. I finally expressed that if she didn’t feel the need to work on this aspect of our relationship, that I didn’t feel the need to work on the relationship at all, and I told her that I was filing for divorce.
It began by making declarative statements, and I stopped asking, because I no longer wanted her input or opinion, I started stating what I wanted and what my terms were. If she didn’t want to contribute to the partnership, then thats her option, but it comes at the price of all or nothing. If she can pick and choose the parts of the partnership that suit her, but not contribute to the other parts that she just doesnt want to, the I can choose to accept or reject those terms.
She now lives in another state, she is still unemployed, she has no ability, experience or skillset to become employed. While she got half of the estate, it was a small price to pay for now having the freedom to no longer need to ask “how is the job search going?” and expect to hear the very same answer for almost 20 years.
With kids however, you will probably not get custody, and the courts will probably decide that she will continue to stay at home to raise them, despite their being in school. If you have the luxury of being tremendously wealthy, you might be able to get custody by showing that you can be a full time house father and not need to work, but the reality is thats probably not the case.
Unfortunately, you are being held hostage by a woman who knows that she doesn’t need to contribute to the partnership and the legal system will back her up until your youngest is 18 with child support.
I made the decision to terminate the relationship, after being tremendously unhappy, and I feel its been one of the best decisions I’ve ever made and wish I came to that decision point years ago. Thats hind sight for me. You, like all of us, have a unique situation, just do whatever you need to with conscious thought and full understanding. If its important to you, make that known, lay out the consequences, have the hard conversation or you can continue with the status quo.
And like TomG said, make sure you have a very firm control on the finances if you walk down the road of divorce. In my case, no lawyers were involved, I did everything Pro Se, after consulting with a lawyer for $100 a few years back. Even without the legal expenses, cutting everything in half is an expensive process, in that paying for multiple households and not just one, selling houses, moving expenses, etc. I feel very fortunate financially, and it hurt me a lot, not that I won’t recover, but the next 2 years are going to be more pizza and beer and less caviar and champagne.
If there is a remote possibility of revenge, financially, this could really hurt. Nothing like a spouse or ex-spouse who wants to kill your credit score or worse to cripple you for many years. If there is a chance of this, prevention is 100% the best option, take away _all_ ability to do that, give access to one joint account and put money in it as needed, everything else in your name only. Don’t hide anything, just open some new accounts for their low fees or better interest rate or whatever reason you need to give. Get your paycheck direct deposited there, make sure that the cash flow can stay on if she makes a bad decision financially.
best of luck brother!
When I made those move in the accounts, I was labled as a controlling, manipulative abusive person. (I guess she had to say something v I just don’t want to work as long as this sucker puts up with it). So, mentally prepare because you will be cast aside as the evil doer.
My biggest WTF moment was two days before we had our oldest son removed from our home for drug, behavior and alcohol issues into a $150,000 rehab/boarding school in Utah.
She threatened to leave if i did not fork over the cash to get him into the program, but refused to talk about how I was going to pay for it. Sorry, she told me that I didn’t have to pay it all up front…..(I swear to God. With a straight face and all…)
So I caved in AGAIN. I was on the phone and email with the program directors and the transportation company who were essentially going to kidnap my 17 year old son when she took a cell phone call, made up some bullshit excuse about getting our youngest son, and drove off. Turns out she went out to complete a cat adoption…….I kept it together, called he and calmly demanded she get back home. She did, but I knew at that very second that this woman was mentally unstable and I just failed to recognize who this person really was. A certified science teacher who graduated with highest honors looks me in the eye and half ass tells me she will get a job in a supermarket. I was totally on my own, having major medical issues of my own that nearly cost me my job (still not out of the woods) and it sounded like she was actually challenging my breaking point. Little did I know about her boyfreind…..The rest is history. Point being, you start down that road and be prepared with a plan. Talk to any attorney and see what a divorce looks like for you. Have an escape plan….if anything it may keep you sane knowing there is one. Also, TELL NOBODY of this plan. One huge mistake I made was letting the cat out of the bag as a threat to get her shit together. She later used that as her reason to have an affair, blamed me for leaving her and the kids, plus the act of threatening her was proof positive that I was a verbally abusive man. (there is a fine line).
The last thing the professionals warned me about that i thought would never happened, was what I would do when she came crawling back. They told me to think carefully about that real possability. I didn’t, and when it happened I was very tempted to let water flow under the bridge….but I quickly saw it was all about her and money, so I put the peddle to the metal and got it over with. How? I asked her what had changed and she had no answer. None….Something about investing a lot of time and 20 years she sacrificed bringing up our two boys….bla bla bla…..that sealed the deal. The best thing is you are in no hurry. Take your time. Line up your ducks, and don’t feel guilty doing these things. Trust me, lawyers and judges don’t give a solid shit if you are working or not. You will pay, or go to jail.
I 2nd those comments from TomG.
First, plan everything. If you do nothing else, plan plan plan, plan some more. You cannot over think this, if you walk down the divorce path. Even if you want to give it another try, set criteria for success and failure. What do you want to see? What is acceptable? If the wife chooses to get a job for 4 hours a week at Starbucks, is that acceptable? What if she gets another day/night/weekend shift position than your schedule, You then never see one another except as you come home and she is leaving.
You have a specific set of expectations, put that down in writing if it helps, but understand what you want, if you communicate what your expectations are and they are met or unmet, then you can define success and failure.
Second, try to find some support structure. A friend, a very close friend who you can bounce ideas and thoughts off. This person should ideally not even know your wife, but thats a hard one. I confided in my brother, who had gone through a divorce himself, but he lives in a different state and he and my ex wife didn’t talk much, so he wasnt about to spill what was going on.
I also found the anonymous world of the interwebs to be cathartic. TomG has been a great sounding board for me, and he was further along in his process than I was, but some big things changed in my life that made me realize that on my current trajectory I was on the path to eat 2 barrels of a shotgun, and would think that was an acceptable solution.
Without some kind of support, I would have felt the most alone and isolated that I’ve ever been. Not a healthy place, so if you want to walk that lonely and dark rode. Maybe this is a therapist or a lawyer, but they all charge by the hour, so it would be better if it were a really good friend who you can sit down and have an open discussion.
Third, document everything you can. If you think that there might be something unhealthy about how your wife’s behavior is a negative influence on your children, then you need to document that. Do you have a daughter? Is your wife’s behavior a roll model for your daughter? Does this have an impact on how she views the world through the telescope of entitlement and not needing to achieve anything? What about a son? Is your relationship how you want them to see a partnership in marriage?
These are the kind of thing that you could use in a legal arena. Does she yell or scream, break dishes, tantrums? Get a witness, write down the story suitable for a judge to read. Is there physical violence or are there threats of physical violence? These are legal issues that can be documented, but be aware that any phone calls to police for domestic violence issues almost always someone is going to jail for the night, Having a y-chromosome usually puts you at the front of the line for going to jail for the night, no matter who makes the phone call.
If you want to get custody of your children, you will basically need to show that your wife is unfit as a parent, not impossible, but not a cake walk either.
Fourth, save some money, a lot of money. Even if you don’t think you will need it. I did this by saying “no, not until you can figure out a way to pay for it” for about 2 years. No vacations, no trips, no weekend getaways, no movies, no dinners out, basically we stopped having any entertainment together that cost money. Walking or biking or the local park tennis courts are all still free. I travel for work related activities a dozen times a year, so I’d spend a weekend in Boston or San Francisco on my own dime, but the travel was company paid, just as a time to get away. You might not be able to do that with children for vacations, since that is an important part of their education and development, but certainly take away anything that your wife “wants”, but doesn’t “need”. Those pretty shoes or the more expensive bottle of wine the luxuries that she wants need to be taken away and put those dollars towards savings.
Fifth, try to understand her perspective. Is she depressed, is she scared of the outside world, does she need education, does she fear going to work in the day only to come home at night and need to do the laundry, dishes and make dinner? She has a reason that she is staying home, whether or not its valid is irrelevant, she gives herself an excuse to stay home. What is it? Does she do everything around the house, and has dinner on the table by 5pm every night, shopping, cleaning, toilet washing, etc.? If she is a domestic goddess and runs a flawless house, does she think that her life will be stretched too thin if she has a job too? Have you told her that you will split the domestic chores when she gets a job?
My ex told herself that she needed to do the laundry and cleaning, because I was unable to do those kinds of things myself. It was complete BS, because I can clean my underwear and socks better without her than when she did these things. She was just unmotivated, she had never needed a job growing up and had never needed to work for anything in her entire life, so in our relationship she simply did the same thing and told herself a story that her time was better spent doing laundry than getting a job. Once I realize that there was no rational way for her to understand the fact that she needed to be employed outside the house and she would never do that willingly, I decided that this was failure for me. In fact the one time she had a job she blamed me for it being a crappy place to work and she hated it. I was then the bad guy for “making her” go to a place where no one liked her or the work was boring, she found every reason to give for the month that she was employed that it was no surprise when she quit.
Finally, as men we act. Don’t be a passive consumer of your life, know what you want, express what you feel and what the consequences are of being on your side or what to expect if your needs are not met. This is not a overly masculine chest thumping, but this is simply your needs as a husband and father that are equally as valid as your wife’s needs as a wife and mother. In the anger and resentment that I felt for my ex-wife, I shut down emotionally, I stopped communications, I felt betrayed even lied to. Resist those outcomes, just lay it out there, if your wife wants to keep the relationship, she should be willing to see your side.
My experience was that she was never going to change and that I had given her ample opportunities to meet my expectations and since she had no desire to meet those needs that I needed to no longer be in a marriage with her. I told her I felt betrayed by her actions and that my desires for having a partnership were not being met. At that moment it was clear to me that I should have done this years ago since she didn’t even offer to get a job at that point. She knew that the job was the critical point and had she even offered to “really be serious” this time, I might have stopped right there, but she knew that anything she said at that point about getting a job was going to be as much of wasted breath as the previous 19 years of lip service.
She is now living elsewhere, staying with relatives, and I hope she is busy finding a new relationship with someone who will support her in her choices for doing laundry. I only wish I could have done this years ago and not wasted the energy in trying to be understanding and accommodating. I’m now dating a wonderful professional woman with interesting things to talk about, not just what she heard on Oprah that day, it is very refreshing to have a conversation with a peer and not a dependent.
best of luck in your situation!
The planning has to be slow, thoughtful, and very very hush hush. Again, I can’t stress enough to avoid punishing her with that nuclear threat. Better to tease her real thoughts out, patiently reflect them back, and make mental notes. It will help you focus on what you are doing and why. It might minimize the second thoughts (there will be plenty of those opportunities during family dinners, holidays, etc….
Or, you might actually get through to her and pull back. Stranger crap has happened along my path to the door.
In my case my ex just shut me out, and unleashed her best passive aggressive behavior on me. Avoid, change the subject, or even mockingly agree with me….
When my lawyer called me to tell me she had engage a firm, was the worst day of my life. It’s so emotional, but again focus with your attorney if it happens. Pick one or two things you will go to war over in the process. If you want to retain your pension, go after that hard, and neogotiate a solution, or not. In my case I inherited a pile (she could not touch) so I made it clear day one I would rather burn all my money rather than pay her alimony. I refused, and I went very very hard for that. You might also think of doing a little “crazy posturing” early on.
I do not pay alimony, but gave her a slug of cash, a house and half of my retirement. It was worth it!
Having a plan is not mean because you must know your rights, and again realize, everything is neogotiable. If you interview your attorney and they tell you the whole deal is simply math driven, get up and walk out and find another lawyer. You will get killed!!!
Yes, having a support group is important. A few guys at work who went through it were my cheer leaders and supporters. It’s important, but avoid telling too many people.
Good luck, and from my heart I hope you can work things out with you wife, but keep an open mind and open eyes.
Agreed again with TomG!
Everything is negotiable in the divorce. Everything! Its a document that only 2 people need to agree with, the ex-husband and the ex-wife. Lawyers might tell you what you want to hear, but if the people in the relationship agree on how to end it, its a rare judge that will completely restructure the contract, which is what the final divorce decree is, its simply a legally enforceable contract.
I took TomG’s advice and had a hard stop at permanent alimony. Texas has no permanent alimony, so that wasn’t a legal option anyway, unless she showed a court that she was incapable of holding employment that met her minimal needs.
For me, the negotiations on the divorce involved being flexible on how to divide the total assets and when that occurred. My initial position was here is 50% of everything, which neither she or I really wanted, but it was what was the legal obligation. She wanted some security for income over time, and I wanted to not liquidate some assets that would incur tax or trade commissions. So I am paying her over time for a few of those assets, she gets some income for a couple of years, I didn’t need to liquidate and take a tax or capital gains hit.
Hopefully you can at least talk to each other in this process, it will be very expensive if you need to pay lawyers to act as intermediates in this process.
Its the same with children. You are the parents and you should be in the position to decide how you raise your children, and you shouldn’t let the legal system make those decisions for you, although if you don’t agree, the courts will gladly impose their will on you.
best of luck
Good move. You took a possible tax hit from liquidating assets, into a support/alimony payment which is a tax deduction for you, and taxable income to her. Bravo!
My ex took a lump sum because it was 100% tax free and on a tax basis worked out better for her, and met my criteria not to have to carry her lazy ass one more day than required.
It worked out great for me because I was a hair away from going on disability (the stress was causing seizures a few times a week) and her affair was the BEST thing to happen at the BEST time. She is a very needy person, so it was a lock he would charge in on a white horse and save her. As it eventually turned out he was so paranoid she would go back to me, he hacked her email and cell phone and got caught…….
When we made a settlement offer, she simply took it. My attorney (she was great and has a reputation for being very very tough) told me to shut my mouth and let my star struck wife bring the whole thing in for a landing…..she did.
She now lives in a house she can’t afford, and I really don’t think she thought the fact through she now has no health insurance, car insurance…..zippo! I actually laughed because she she amassed THREE speeding tickets in a year (yes, rules of the road don’t apply to her either lol) that our car insurance company dropped her a month after we were divorced. Into the high risk pool she went at the cost of $5,000/ year. My insurance went down by $1,600….ha ha ha……Not to go on and on, but she called me up and begged me to keep her on my car policy. If you follow through with a divorce, the best part is the word “No” is actually a complete sentence. lol
In truth, she is sitting on a slug of cash, so she can afford it, but like when we were married, that is “her money.”
I have to say although my retirement has been stunted, I got a really really good deal. My stress is down, seizures are under control. I’m pretty calm and happy, and I have been seeing a really nice woman who shares many of my values and interests who is a lot of fun…….
All the best, and it will be one way or the other.
TomG
I’m really happy that you are in a better place, and I truly thank you for your advice! You were more help than the lawyers I talked to, most of whom told me that I would first split everything 60/40, 60% hers, 40% mine and then I’d be court obligated to pay support as well.
All of which was complete BS, I read Texas law and its very clear what my legal obligation was and there is no “permanent support” unless she could claim a permanent disability that kept her from supporting herself.
She asked once about permanent support, and I said I would fight that in court and the burden of proof is on you, you need to show the court that you cannot hold a job that meets your minimal needs and I will show that you are a college graduate and will have your income imputed as such. She backed pedaled off that point faster than you can believe. I used shame and her fear of public ridicule to win that argument, but I knew that was a weak spot, and it served its purpose.
I showed her that with 50% of the estate that she would have more resources than the maximum amount that I would be legally required to pay, even if she showed that she could not obtain a job immediately and needed rehabilitative support for 5 years. I would then argue that my additional support was not needed as she already had the resources for rehabilitation.
She agreed that the best plan would be to reduce my taxable income and increase hers, since her first $10K is tax free anyway and the tax rates for the rest would be smaller than my marginal rate.
In all, I feel like it was fair deal to both sides, no one got screwed and no one was taken advantage of. I seriously wish her the best of luck finding someone who wants her to stay at home and do their laundry all day, but wow I feel so much of a different person now that this is as close to over as it can be, beyond the monthly checks for a few years.
The sad part is that she is now in a terrible economic situation, a place that she put herself. Just when you’d want to have a good stable career with a decent paycheck and making valuable contributions to a company or social institution, she finds herself middle aged, no experience for 20 years and no drive to do anything of consequence.
I’m glad that we have been able to move on, out of the quagmire, and I do thank you TomG for your perspective and thoughts in the single darkest time in my life. I hope you and your sons stay healthy and happy and it will always be good to hear your “voice” on this forum.
If I can add an emotional note, the sad moments for me are what you mentioned. Staying home doing laundry over contributing to the financial security of the family. In my case it was health reasons, but not even that potential could break her off the trail of self entitlement.
It’s tragic in so many ways. I still do not understand what makes these woman believe anyone owes them a rose garden. She now reminds me (history re write) that she “sacraficed” her career to stay home with the boys, and that her contibution to one of our son’s home school experience has made all the difference in the world to his life.
Problem was I never questioned her contribution, or margialized it in any way. I simply needed help and was foolish to expect she would seriously recognize that and support me in that respect. In no way was she ever standing at the front door when these boys got home from school with an apple and peanut butter sandwiches. Her arguement was only valid between the walls of our home while all of her friends and all of her family worked and raised children. I know because she had a lot of time to babysit many of their children while they worked……Think about that? Not only was she fulfilling her vision of a stay home Mom for our children, she was also selflessly fulfilling that vision for her family and freinds as a surrogate Donna Reed on my dime because I simply gave up trying to reason with an out of touch child. I still want to pull my own teeth out thinking about that logic…..
One reason that I haven’t seen mentioned is that when the inevitable divorce comes the judge will look at earning history to decide if to award spousal support and how much. The longer she hasn’t worked, the higher the support awarded..
My experience was the judge didn’t even ask about earnings history. I represented myself Pro Se, and my now ex-wife and I drafted out the marriage settlement agreement. We detailed what to do with all the accounts, retirement, non-retirement, what to do with the proceeds from the sale of the house, what the language of the QDROs were to have the judge sign so we could get the pre-tax retirement money that was only in my name moved without penalty.
We had details on who was responsible for cellular phone bills (joint plan), car insurance, health insurance, etc. and when those particular coverages expired in a timeline. Which pieces of furniture or belongings went to whom.
At no point did the judge ask me, “was your wife employed and for how long?”, The questions were, “are there any children or does she expect any?” and “do you both agree to the settlement agreement?” And since we both had our signatures on it that we agreed, it was pretty easy to say yes we both agree.
It might have been different if there was a conflict and we were disagreeing in court and it went to a trial, but I had told my now ex-wife that the one thing that I would spend every last dollar fighting was support, and she had every reason to believe me because it was true.
If she has a skill or college degree, you can easily have income imputed, if she is capable of working and simply chooses to lay around.
good luck!
Some Judges won’t. However, my current female friend has been divorced 10 years, and unlike many, she wanted out, she wanted the house she essentially bought with proceeds from the sale of her non marital home, and no alimony. She was told to pay $475/ moth support for two children….that was it. However, in the final hearing, the Judged reminded her that she was entitled to alimony, and asked her several times if she were sure of what she was giving up. She did, and her ex has not paid one dime in support since . Owes about $80K and because he is a hopeless drunk, she has never made an issue out of it. I will also mention her youngest daughter is 24 and challenged with health issues……she did it all alone, and confesses she preferred doing so just not to deal with him. BRAVO!
My kinda woman…..strong, smart, mature, and a lot of fun. To everyone going through a divorce, or thinking about it, it gets better in so many ways.
I can even be in the same room with my ex and not get upset anymore……
Like you, I made it clear I was going to the wall with alimony, so she gladly took a buyout.
Hang in there all. I still have my moments, but it gradually gets better…..even though it is so much different. Being treated nicely takes al lot of energy, trust, and patience. It’s normal.
Great article and a real eye opener. It was as if you were writing specially about my life and the issues with my wife.
Thanks
Loved reading all the advice and comments posted here. First off i always have to wonder about the people who feel the need to comment when the topic is not about them. For example the stay at home mothers who do hold up their end of the bargain by listing the endless jobs they have to do everyday. Is it because they can’t have sympathy because it is a man complaining? Iam a woman who has a son who is now grown and proud to say he is a strong capable man and maybe someday take care of his wife and children. Also by saying he is a man he has just turned twenty. I hear people refer to their children when they are twenty and above like they are still in grade school or high school. This in my opinion teaches both men and woman to be weak when it comes time to take care of buisness. Now back to the subject at hand I have supported my son his whole life by cleaning houses. I have always had alot of energy and this job works fome plus I have made a good living doing it and I have worked for alot of wonderful people but do notice alot of things. For example some woman who don’t have alot to do through the course of the day while their husband is at work. Computer surfing exercise classes but complain to me how tired they are while I listen and agree thinking thw whole time I have two more house to clean after this one. Plus when the husbands get home he is expected to put his own laundry away because she has washed and folded it. I think in my head if I had husbands as good as the ones I clean for there would be nothing for them to do when they get home. It amazes me when they are complaining to me about their lives that they don’t realize they are speaking to someone who has to clean two or three houses a day that they have it really good and love and support their husbands all the more for it. Always thought these men should stand up to their wives but reading the post gives the other side of it. Sorry about this being so long because now I have to clean my own house which by the way is a wreck lol.
Hi
Yes, now being in the dating world, I see what the real world is for the vast majority of woman I have come to know. A few career teachers, a dentist and two woman who worked full time with significantly handicapped children with zero help from their ex husbands who were “men boys” drunks, lazy, or simply didn’t take their vows seriously.
I must be honest, if I were faced working full time with full responsibility for a sick or handicapped child would be well beyond what I feel I could cope with.
One woman I am seeing is a full time teaching assistant (15 years) who had to carry her husband’s addiction on her back and ignored completing her bachelors degree to become a certified art teacher….Meaning she makes less than half of what a teacher makes. She also cleaned houses, painted, taught private art classes until she sadly discovered that even steel breaks.
These stories are very raw reminders that the relationship I was in was very much one sided, selfish, and abusive. Even to this day, my ex behaves as if certain things I used to provide her are still her entitlement. God love her, she really has no idea she’s even doing it.
Yes, the real issue with me was the guilt, confusion, frustration I carried for years believing I was supposed to take care of my ex wife in a way I wouldn’t permit if my own children behaved the same way.
Thats cool, but you are unique among women. I understand the generalization that all women do this is false. Many, Many do behave this way. I found myself pondering my past relationships and realized I could not deny the statistics, out of the last 5 women who lived in my home with me romantically 3 refused to leave when it was over. Its at that point you realize what the priorities are in the relationship, they didnt want me any more than I wanted them in the end, but they still cry because now they have to find a new way to support themselves with no skills, no ambition and no self respect.
I’m glad to know you exist in opposition to this breed of woman and I hope they all can learn to be as respectable as you seem to be.
Hi all
No, not all woman are like that, but I am at a point in my new life after a 22 year miserable marriage to a Psychiatrists dream, I have come to terms with my part in that relationship. I put up with it, enabled it, rationalized it, but knew deep down something was terribly wrong with her.
Interesting that the woman who moved into your house and refused to move out, drew up tears and, I’m sure, a cock in bull story rather than leave and move on. My ex treated me like a POS, and actually enjoyed (smiled wide) telling me about her BF….It’s still hard to explain, but it was if she had been repressed all these years and was pleased to hurt me. I asked her to give it time and see what happened. She refused (big smile) “I’m moving on with my life.” She actually told me that I was so sad because for the first time she was standing on her own two feet….. I was still taken by surprise, but had the presence of mind to tell her “it’s about eff’ing time.”
Then, the very day of our divorce, all the things I asked her to consider: giving it time. Kick the can down the road. Telling her I felt like it was just a wrong thing” all came back to me in her own voice. Almost word for word.
She actually said “If you really love me, you’ll do the right thing.”
Ladies and Gents, it all became clear, and I divorced her.
Keeping my eyes and ears open is best thing I could do for myself at the age of 54. They are all out there and it takes real guts to see it and walk. They call it “baggage.” I call it being self aware.
Hey Carlos, how are you now after the divorce, not sure you will get this.
I am contemplating divorce now.
22 years to a woman who does nothing for me, not cook, clean, work, good mother to kids though but damn lazy.
drinks and fits of rage.
Boyd
I concur with what you wrote. This website rankles me. In my neighborhood almost every woman works or telecommutes as you do. My kids are 4 and 6 and when I had an opportunity at work last year for a severance package I took it so that I could spend more time with my boys before they are in school full time. I know that most of the women in my neighborhood work because the only time I have adult companionship during the day is during the summer when one of my neighbors who is a teacher is home. There is one stay at home dad a couple of houses down from me (and it suits their marriage fine even though both of their boys are in school full time). My background is Finance and I am currently working on my re-entry to work plans for when the youngest hits Kindergarten/ First grade. The women these men speak of are a breed unfamiliar to me. I am independent, self-motivated, and I can stand on my own two feet. And most of my female friends are the same. Is it possible that these men really do not want my breed of woman. I am difficult, headstrong, and I demand equal treatment. Formerly I headed up an accounting department in manufacturing. I am my own person. Perhaps men don’t want to be married and challenged by jerks like myself. There is a trade-off to everything. And Frances please do not read into my post that I am insinuating you are anything like me. You are a good, decent person (like most women I know).
On a random note I will reiterate that I hate domestic tasks and believe in a fair partnership when it comes to the house. I do understand that if one partner is not working it is only fair he/she take a larger portion of the household chores, but I will openly confess cleaning and laundry is not my thing. I am going to school now and the house is completely on the back burner.
I don’t see why being an independent working mother means you have to be difficult and headstrong?
It sounds like his wife is also difficult and headstrong… isn’t that the problem in the first place?
Well here’s one for Ya !!!! In Vermont all you need to have is…………. # 1 Be a non-bread winner, which in fact is 99.9% of the women in VT. # 2 have been married for 15 plus years, and # 3 just ask/demand a divorce, all the judge can do is award to the wife is 48.5% of my net income……..for life !!!!!! and for what ? THe state thinks they stay at home mom takes care of everything, in fact they don’t. They do NOT do all of the cleaning, cooking, and child rearing, Oh yeah the additions to the house, repair of the cars, on top of working 60 to 80 hours a week, us men do at least half if not more. The judge will grant her all the bling they want Because of the dispairity in income.No need to work, where is the insentive ? SO then when a family member applies for welfare, why then doesn’t the court say ” go back to your family members and have them support you” ? it is the same thing. It’s because they(99.9% of women) don’t want to work. I really did not have a problem “helping” my former wife…..however when the court does NOT reconize that the wife had two affairs in the “Bond of matrimony” because it has no bearing in the state of VT. then why do we pay….and pay….and pay. ????? The state allows her to make 4500.00 a month for NOTHING !!!!!!!
does not have to work !!!! at all. ONe more thing, it is for life(alimony). Remember after you liquidate all the assets………cash is given to the EX. she did not have to spend the time to sell it, move it, store it, pay for it….. nothing !!!!! just stick out her hand and wait for the bling. So much for equal WOMENS rights !!!! THe laws are out dated and need to be fair, right and just. and if any of you women out there think otherwise, fine, then all I can say is you have BI-polar !!!!!!!! get it treated. If I have offended anyone GOOD !!!!! you people need to hear the truth. I’ve never been so offended and even violated in my life, because of crazy laws, and the crazy people whom made and support them. I do pay my monthly “friendship payment” because if I don’t, the state will take my electrical license away from me…….my livelyhood !!!!! where is the justice I ask ???????
Really? 99% of women? Well, all the women out there that I see working including myself MUST be men dressed in drag. Hey fellas, here’s a tip, know what you’re getting into BEFORE you get married! If you have the slightest suspicion that she could end up a gold digger, get a prenup!
I can understand the sentiment, although clearly the numbers are not reality. JohnB feels like he is getting the shaft because his deadbeat ex-wife now gets to live on his permanent welfare check. Divorce law in the US is crazy and alimony is state to state. California its almost guaranteed for marriages of “long duration” greater than 10 years, usually that any disparity in income is adjusted between the divorcees….forever. Contrary, in Texas, alimony is rare and its always got a time limit and is generally for rehabilitative purposes.
Its totally worth moving states if you are seriously getting a divorce from a deadbeat. Imagine 40-50% of your take home going to an ex until the day you retire, and then possibly even longer into retirement if you can’t get the court to cancel your legal obligations to continue to pay.
Permanent alimony makes about as much sense as permanent unemployment or permanent state welfare.Its permanent child support except the woman never hits 18 and is expected to self sufficient.
Our society puts this huge emotional baggage on a marriage, just look at the number of bride magazines in your local newstand, but the reality is that its just a legal contract between two people with certain powers and obligations.
I’d like to know how many women out there are paying their ex-husbands alimony, since working women is a more common norm than it used to be and this recession hit typical male jobs (construction, building) more than typical female jobs (office, healthcare).
Alimony or spousal support has got to be the most antiquated ideas left on the legal books, as applied to women, who are considered incapable of supporting themselves outside the home with employment. Might as well go back 100 years and repeal the 19th amendment.
I try very hard to not be resentful, but after 3 years of carrying the financial burden, defaulting on credit cards, in trouble with the IRS (due the the credit card charge offs), working 3 jobs, late on the mortgage…I’m blowing a gasket. She’s a good mother to our 3 year old, but she loses her temper way too much with her which is partly due to being so poor, as she puts it. Just venting here, but it’s helpful in a weird way, that I’m not alone in this.
My wife has done all this, I’m really happy to know I’m not alone. I can’t talk to anybody about her, because she’ll find out.Couple tricks she pulls on me, not doing any housework, and as soon as I try to clean the house, she will grab (the sweeper for example) away from me, and say she was “just going to do that”. So I like a moderately clean house, I’m not super-picky, I have tried to wait for her to do any housework, I wait months for vacuuming, years for toilet cleaning, weeks for dishwashing, and eventually start doing the housework. Well, that makes her very angry, physical and mentally abusive. She has called the police on numerous occasions for me doing housework, the last time they warned her that she would go to jail if she wasted their time with that sort of complaint again. As soon as they left, she stopped her crying, looked sternly at the children, and told them if their dad EVER did anything they didn’t like, to immediately call the police. I tried to point out the false logic she was using, to no avail.
I have figured out why she lets the dishes pile up indefinintly, because if we have a visitor come to the house, she can immediately start washing dishes in an exasperated way, and staring at me, which they usually buy into, and stare at me too.
She threatened to kill me and the children, and everybody else, if I divorce her.
She went to college finally, but after five years of bragging about her grades, the only job she got fired her within 2 weeks, because she refused to work without somebody telling her what to do, moment to moment.
No she is a hoarder too, and is making herself physically ill will all the junk, rotton clothing primarily, that she stores everywhere. She is always absorbing any free space to pile stuff. She apparently has self-inflicted pnumonia now, but will she listen to me, NO. She always does the opposite of what I ask, in all arenas. I live in a small room in the basement, and have a lock on the door so she can’t takeover that space. I maintain everything, yet she continues to claim more space, now in the yard too, and she can’t do anything to maintain those areas, except blocking me from them. Sorry, gotta go, but I’ll return to vent more someday. Sure feels good to talk about it…
Yikes John, you’ve got your hands full.
I can understand the sentiment of not being able to talk about where you are at emotionally with your wife. I felt trapped and out of control, unable to express myself to my wife and unable to express myself outside of the relationship.
A couple of things to keep in mind.
First, all relationships involve compromise, communication and joint decisions. If she is making decisions that you disagree with, you need to tell her. If she continues to make those decisions at your disapproval, she needs to know the consequences. Be as honest as you can be, but since your wife has threatened murder, you need to know what you can say and what you cannot. Set your expectations.
Second, find a way to document your wife’s inappropriate behavior. Pictures, movies, etc. are all easy ways to put tangible evidence in front of a judge when making a child custody claim.
It is your right to have a healthy relationship and not be threatened or blackmailed into enabling your wife’s behavior.
best of luck
-JSG
I agree!! I feel for my male coworkers who are in this rut. I tell them their spouse will feel empowered and successful if they get to work outside the home. Sadly many of them share that their wives are only too content to sit at home and peruse television channels.
Most woman that I know who work are more likely to be either single mom’s or divorced. I also, have heard from more then one working mom they go to work because they would go crazy staying home all day with kids. I don’t think the majority of the mom’s I know are infantile or childish because they stay home. Many like the working mom’s say their kids drive them crazy. Yet, they do what they feel deep down what they are called to do. All I have ever wanted to do in life was be a stay at home mom. Why? Because my mom worked and I hated being alone in a house all day with just my sister. If someone feels its their duty to raise their children they brought into the world then why call that childish? Woman have been doing this role since the world began.
Hi dr.
I am in the same situation as most of people here, its 16 years already, and she still does not work nor study for it.
Its 6 years already of psychological treatment, 3 from a behaviorist and three from a humanist, the results, she is aware of her “dependence” now, and states that she is sick and wants to get better, no more improvements happened and I do not foresee any one in the short-mid term period (or long?).
I admit she is a special case, she is a sick person (both mentally and physically), mentally she suffers from pstd and dpd (dependant personality disorder) and phisically she suffers from lupus.
What puts me in a very dificult position, as I cannot judge her as I would for a normal woman, at the same time, I have a burden I didn’t asigned for nor wanted.
I love her, but at the same time, it is very hard to me, to see all my friends happily married with normal women that works and help them with the financial burden of the daily life.
I really do not know what to do, accept this injustice and be with whom I love which very probably will never work (I would say a mix of can’t and do want to)?
or should I get divorce and face the guilt of leaving an dependant person that I love alone?
I am under psychological treatment also, but I needed to see if other people were in my shoes, and also I needed to let it out.
I feel sympathy for all guys in the same situation as me, it is a very very complicated situation.
cheers
This is such an enlightening article! I have been frustrated so much in recent years. My wife has a college degree and was a teacher for 2 1/2 years before our oldest kids were born (almost 16 years ago now). She has only worked part-time off and on for the past 7 years or so. Meanwhile, I’ve singlehandedly shouldered our family’s financial burden for much longer than I’d ever thought I would’ve had to. I make decent money, but particularly with teenagers, it doesn’t go nearly as far as it used to. Every fall I hope that maybe this is the year she’ll return to teaching. Then, nothing. We have money for the basics but not many extras (vacations, toys…) I’ve talked to her MANY times about my concerns, that we NEED her to work (college is coming soon!), and why doesn’t she want to use her degree? All I get in return is a mixture of excuses (i.e., it’s a hassle to get re-certified, teaching jobs are hard to come by, I still need to be around for the kids…) and downplaying of our situation (we’re OK, aren’t we?, The Lord will provide, why do you worry so much?). I feel like I’m beating my head against a wall whenever we discuss finances. I obsess about our financial situation way too much, but I don’t see any lights at the end of the tunnel. Now, I’m finding that any other, even trivial, disagreement we have causes all of my pent-up frustration to come bubbling up. I am literally terrified about funding college on my current salary and having my poor kids have to take on 6-figure student loan debts. Meanwhile, she has time to play tennis, go out for coffee with friends, and basically be carefree to do what she wants. I literally don’t know what to do next. I really do love her but I sure don’t feel like I have an equal partner in the marriage…
Hi Jeff,
I can empathize and I can feel all the anguish and frustration that I felt in a similar situation.
I can’t tell you what to do, but I can share with you what my experiences have been.
My wife and I had an almost 20 year marriage, and I felt that her lack of employment was at first she was just trying to find herself or gain a direction after college. This was after talking about her career plans in college and after declaring her aspirations for working before we got married!
Any time that I’d bring up her employment it resulted in a fight and I used to have a fairly low conflict level, so after several years of trying support and guide and influence her into getting a job, without success, my resentment and frustration just grew.
We had no children, so I thought that anything that she did during the day was wasting her time, she simply couldn’t account for the time between me going to work and coming home.
She was employed once at a call center early in our relationship, underemployed, since it certainly didn’t require her technical college degree and then a second time she worked for a tax preparation company, but neither paid enough to cover the costs of the car, insurance, gas, etc. and it was my fault that she didn’t like her job because I was the one “forcing” her to work.
15 years into our marriage, about 7 years ago now, I changed my approach. I stopped coddling her and encouraging her with kindness, it became a matter of fact relationship. She said that she wanted to go someplace for vacation, I said “no, we can’t afford it”.
About 5 years before our marriage ended, I became very direct on what I wanted and what I expected from her. I told her that I considered her lack of employment to be unfair and not part of the partnership that I expected in our marriage. I made it clear what I wanted, and she continued on with her usual lip-service of “looking for a job”, but never actually getting a job or doing anything.
After a while I couldn’t view her as a whole person anymore and I was actually driven to the point where I just didn’t care about her anymore. I knew this was the end, and after living as estranged people under the same roof for a few months, I said that I wanted a divorce.
It took me from a point where I loved this woman entirely, to a place where I simply didn’t care about what she did in her life, just as long as it didn’t involve me, I was fine. For me, divorce was simply financial, since there were no children, for you it will not be so simple.
Divorce for you can be suicide, it can kill you financially, it can kill your ability to see your children, it could turn into permanent alimony you pay to your wife, depending on which state you live in when filing. So walk down that path carefully, since a non-working mother carries almost all the cards in a divorce, she will get the custody of the children, the house, child support, alimony and as well as half of your assets. You will lose your identity as a father and as a husband, you will be the bad guy in the eyes of the family law court and you will turn into a cash flow resource that provides all of the positive things to your then ex-wife and estranged children, but you will derive no benefit from them.
Women don’t view the world the same as men, we are acculturated differently, we have different expectations from society and are given different treatment in the legal system. If you are in a western state like California, marriages of long duration (10 years or more) the lesser income partner is eligible for alimony for life, and divorce is no-fault, meaning that anyone can ask at any time for any reason.
Try appealing to her nurturing side, for the children, for getting a job, but I do feel your frustration, I lived there myself!
Good luck in whatever you decide to do, but know that you are not alone!
Thanks JSG. Appreciate your input and encouragement! I am certainly not thinking divorce, since I do love her very much, we have kids, and divorce would just make me that much more broke!! I was having a bad week when I posted last week. I find that nowadays I go through periods of great frustration, and then it’ll even out a bit, but deep down, I still have this lingering sense of frustration about our circumstances. I’ve used the “we can’t afford it” and accuse my wife and kids of thinking money grows on trees. I saw a post someone else made that said something to the effect of, if she wanted to buy something or go somewhere, “how are you going to pay for it?”. I will use that. Ultimately, she will probably substitute teach this year which will bring in something, but it’s still not what we need. I continue to pray for wisdom and patience, but beyond that, I feel like I’m banging my head on a brick wall when I try and make my wife understand that we need her to use that college degree for our family’s future! Thanks again. Best, Jeff
Ah, the old “how are you going to pay for it” line. When I finally got the resolve to say this to my ex she had a fit of monumental proportion! If I were you I would be prepared for the fury that might happen.
BTW I see now that this was the last straw in the relationship as I finally setup a boundary I was not willing to let her cross – one of several to come. We fought for hours and near the end she said she wanted a divorce (for like the 100th time). She was shocked again when I said “fine have it your way, I am going to fight for custody”.
That was about 3 years ago. I am happy and free now although it cost me a bundle. But how can you put a price on freedom?
hi Jeff,
Some books that helped me:
No More Mr Nice Guy by Glover,
The Rational Male by Tomasi,
Hold on to you NUTS, by Levine,
All you can do is state your plan, and act on your plan, and I hope your wife can get on board. Mine unfortunately did not, which while sad isn’t the point.
You need to know what you can and cannot live with, what you can and cannot tolerate from her and what you want to have, and what you expect from her.
If its unacceptable for her that you don’t come home drunk after work and its unacceptable for you that she isn’t employed outside the house, then these things need to be said and it needs to be clear that decisions have consequence, even decisions of inaction.
I was only illustrating my case since if you are going to kick your marriage into a higher conflict zone, there will likely be consequences, and unless you are prepared for them, you might rethink the idea of laying down “rules” that up until now hadn’t been rules.
Sadly for me, my marriage died, but I am much happier and healthier. You have a much more difficult choice since there are children and the down side is much steeper.
My wife was a princess on a pedestal and had been trained by her parents to be one, and I was expected to continue the treatment. After pointing out the reality to her, and giving her the opportunity to change and then seeing no effort on her part, it wasn’t even a decision anymore what needed to happen. We just fundamentally disagreed on needing to fulfill some utility in a meaningful life.
cheers,
-JSG
I have been with my gf for almost 3 years, I have a child that live with us and she has a child that lives with us, both from previos relationships, we also had a child together 6 months ago, I make enough money to support us all but she is always bitching that I am never home cause I work all the time, and she always has to care for the children, yes being stay at home is not an easy task it can be done as well all know, I support us, do all the outside stuff, fix the cars, go to work, and pay all the bills with out any help from her, but she expects me to help her with her share of things that need done, and does not or won’t ask but just expects me to do, all the while bitching about it the whole time, well I am done, I am fine with her staying home but really you going to tell me I don’t get paid enough for what I do at work, or that certain things at work should not be my responsibility, I am a chef at a restaurant that does over $3.5 million a yr in sales, she knew my career when we met, but now it’s all about she want to feel in control, i try to tell her it not about control but making ends meet, this has went on and on, over and over, I tell her to go make the income for the household and I will stay at home with no response, well to say the least I am done with it, she has very little family or friend to help, not that they would but I can’t take it anylonger, I want to tell her it’s over and to leave, we are not married and the house I rent is my aunts, but she has no means to leave on her own and expects me to pay for her to leave with our child with her having no income, and won’t get a job, what the hell do I do? Someone please help !!!!
@Jeff: I’ve been reading a piece called ‘How to get rich slow’. Its about money, getting your finances under control, and living within your means. Just very simple, common sense stuff (common sense, that thing that most of us men DONT have when it comes to romantic relationships with women). Basically have to take it day by day with baby steps until you get out of debt and back on your feet.
IMO, this may be a strategy for you to employ in your situation. Start making plans (Plan B) and taking small steps for your personal and emotional freedom from this woman. Do it now. Then, if/when the day comes you need to separate, you will have your plan in place and a place to go and some funds to rely on during the separation phase and ensuing battles. Sure wish I had planned better like this. Bottom line, very unlikely she’ll change and you may end up financially & emotionally drained if you stay with her.
Been married 15 years. My wife worked the first year or so. Has been a stay at home mom since. Kids are 13 & 11 now. Here is the kicker about the wife working…..I was was literally TORTURED, every Sunday when she was working. She was I’ll prepared for and/or apprehensive about the week ahead (i.e. Her job.). She would take her stress out on me.
The last 14 years with her not working has been no picnic either.
Just saying…..one of those situations, damned if she does work, damned if she doesn’t.
I am lost, I am married to a women who used to work. She is 30 years old and I am 35. We started dating back in 2003 and married in 2005, ever since the day we met she worked and helped out with the bills and my business. Then 4.5 years ago after she got pregnant she just decided she would stop working and stop helping in anyway with the finances or bills.
It’s been 4.5 years now and my little girl is in preschool. My wife spends everyday baking, going to groups, “Moms groups”, “church groups”, “women’s groups”, donating her time every day to all kinds of charities and fundraisers but she doesn’t work or help me in any way. She doesn’t think she has to, she looks at me as her father rather then her husband. She only speaks to me when she is asking me for something. She doesn’t have sex with me anymore, she sleeps in a separate room, when I talk to her she just ignores me most of the time, unless I say lets go out for dinner or anything else that cost money. She babysits a little for a friend and uses any money she makes on cookies and baking stuff. She doesn’t make dinner or do anything for me. She feeds my daughter mac and cheese or Ramon noodles almost everyday and even when I make dinner she will ignore it and make noodles or something before my meal is done.
I cook dinner almost every night, I do the shopping most of the time. She is a good mom and takes my daughter around to all of these group functions which is making my daughter outgoing but the weird part is that she goes to the groups even when my daughter is not with her. She probably spends 40-60 hrs a week baking, or donating her time while making hundreds of friends while I spend all my days working and my evening alone with very few friends and no wife to talk to. I have asked her several times to get a job because I struggle every month to cover our $5,000 a month in bills by myself while she doesn’t chip in a dollar.
The worst part is how she goes to church every week and portrays as though she is this great charitable christian person who loves everyone and everyone loves and I end up looking like the standoffish guy because I can’t spend all the hours she does in these groups. She is very disrespectful to me and doesn’t appreciate anything I do. She acts as though I owe it all to her and she is just two good for the world. She will be best friends with anyone in the room but will completely ignore me once they leave the room. She bad mouths me and talks me down to her family.
I don’t know what to do, it is starting to cause some depression and I’m afraid to leave her because I’m worried about my daughter without me around all the time to protect her. Any advice would be really appreciated. I am a good person and I feel I deserve someone who will love me as much as I love them.
That’s a rough position to be in.
One the one hand she is most certainly treating you life a roommate/ATM and no marriage can withstand that.
One the other hand, if you decide enough is enough and divorce her, you, your child and your income will be at the mercy of the courts. You may end up paying out more than the $5000 in expenses every month than you already do. CS is a nightmare, especially for men with EX’s don’t refuse to work.
Have you tried counseling? You say she’s active in her church. Would counseling with her pastor help? At the least, it may embarrass her to have to admit to someone she admires that she is refusing to help with her families financial future and that she is refusing to share your marital bed.
Dude, I realized some years ago many women marry for security and not for love. So, it sucks. Imagine how hard it is for them to respect you when they don’t love you. Heck, I chipped my tooth a while back. So, after a few years I had some other dental work and they ground it down. Mentioned it to my wife. Her answer was she didn’t realize I had a chipped tooth.
She’s not bad but her parents stuck her in front of a TV and let it raise her. She can cook but will not eat leftovers. Throws lots of perfectly good food out. Throws out food every week because she doesn’t bother cooking it. We go out to eat about 50% of the times.
Yes, we have kids and she takes them to their activities.
Bottom line is some wives turn into high-priced baby-sitters, like someone else said.
Well, her sister and a sister-in-law both got screwed totally in divorce. I assume both husbands paid off the lawyers. The first is now a CEO of a major insurance company. Other claimed to make $300k/year but setup the divorce so it was on the first week of Jan where he had no commission in his check. Etc. Not sure of the point; but maybe these “baby-sitters” would like to be divorced but are afraid of going it alone.
Oh yeah, one thing that burns me up is how she blows money. Put her on a budget with cc only for gas. Well, still $2k+ per month goes onto it. Put her in charge of paying bills a few years ago so she’d see the finances. She typically would put them aside and forget. Paid late fees and interest about 1/2 the time since then. Even had to pay penalties to the state for insurance being canceled for not being paid. Lots of excuses but the accounts are all online and she has the logins.
She still cleans up the apartment regularly but can’t break her lifestyle. We have had some serious issues which financially set us back but she won’t consider a house outside of the $600k neighborhoods (where we live there are many in $300’s in great neighborhoods and I’ve found several in the $100-$200k in great areas which she outrightly refuses as “the are hell holes” because they are not new homes.)
My point is she shops at the expensive grocery store. Tells me its too much trouble to go to the low-cost store 5 blocks away or to the farmer’s market on Saturdays. I end up doing a large part of the work at the house. I used to work two jobs but figured out it doesn’t really help as I never got to see the kids and she’s not going to save any of it anyways.
I feel sorry for her as she was never taught anything by her parents or school. She can’t do basic math. She doesn’t ever think about comparing prices. She’ll typically buy something for $300 on some website which I could readily find for $100 elsewhere. Etc.
It gets old.
Not a bad mom; but, like has been said, what is she teaching the kids? Her outing with the girl is to get their toenails painted. Doesn’t want to take them to church as she doesn’t feel like getting dressed at 9AM for a 10AM service. Buys the girl $$$$ drinks for breakfast instead of making something herself. I buy vegetables and rice and beans but she will just let them sit there. Fortunately she likes chicken better than lobster!
by the way, over time I find myself becoming a worse person – as someone else mentioned. Why bother working when it all goes into a black hole anyway? Have considered throwing in the towel somehow. I get angry with her and that’s not good. For instance, we had our taxes sent to us from the accountant and I told her we needed to review them. A day goes by. “we need to review”. another day. Finally this morning I tell her several times we really need to review. So, she says once she’s done. Done what? Looking through an advertisement magazine! I’m working FT at the time; so, don’t really have time to work around her “schedule”. Eventually it turns into a fight and we finally look through. Well, the medical and dental expenses were not itemized. I asked her to do that many times over the last many, many months. She did type some of it up. But, it needs to be summarized for the accountant. We are not in our 20’s or our 30’s. Its as if she doesn’t want to learn anything about anything because then she might have to do it. So, I end up doing almost everything. Attempts to give her responsibility with anything but grocery shopping have all but failed, it seems.
oh yeah. she does have a medical degree and worked for about 10 years but hasn’t worked since for over 10 years other than some aerobics jobs. She says she hates that field. But doesn’t want to do anything else either it seems. We are in the last years of being able to get into some job with a retirement check; and I fear if she doesn’t get something soon then it’ll be disaster for us in retirement. I won’t care as I don’t care about eating at the $$$$$ restaurants and staying in the $$$$$ resorts; but, she is in for a rude awakening. Just hope the kids can finish growing up and get independent before I lose my job or something and the wasteful repercussions come home to roost.
I have been on this site for a while, but this is my first time posting. I think this site is a great and necessary resource for our society, men and women alike
When I have met women who exhibit the behaviours that Dr. Tara outlines (I have met many!), I have strong negative visceral reactions towards them. I have been confused by this, and also at times thought the issue was with me. Maybe I was just “jealous” that these women seemed to get away with such infantile and entitled behaviour that I couldn’t bring myself to do.
I now realise from this site that my strong negative reactions were actually my own moral radar going off. These women act out in abusive and destructive ways that are absolutely NOT acceptable. Their selfishness borders on sociopathy, and their tyrannical reigns are a gross perversion of motherhood.
My partner and I have been working on overcoming this conditioning from childhood. He felt constant pressure for being responsible for everything in our relationship, including whatever fleeting mood I might be in (yes you can be in a bad mood and not take it out on people). His fear/guilt runs so deep that he still finds it difficult to say no to me. Personally I found this offensive, because what does that say about my character? Am I so egotistical/weak/tyrannical that my partner cannot be honest with me? He doesn’t believe so, but it’s just what the conditioning is nowadays.
We have spoken about work and child-rearing. We both agree that someone will have to stay home with young children for us to have the lifestyle we desire. I’ve supported him through grad school, and if someone has to work full-time, it would be nice that when they come home there are no more chores to do and everything at home is taken care of. This would increase quality family time.
Yes, running a household and raising young children is a full-time job, and I honestly believe some women just suck at it. Everyone knows of those incompetent people at work who get away with very little, and of course the same thing applies for SAHMs. My partner trusts that my role as SAHM will be a major contribution to the family, as I already am extremely frugal, do my own alterations, cook from scratch and have no debt with significant savings. These are good signs that when more time becomes free, due to kids going to school, that I will engage in future work/study in order to contribute however way I can.
Anyone who wants to work will eventually make it work. I have known many women who start, but never finish courses, don’t take care of their health, spend money on expensive habits to fill up their time, as their husbands bare the brunt of funding their life and retirement savings. They always have the same excuse that their career was “stunted” because they made the “sacrifice” to stay home with the kids. Well that was 15 years ago lady! Besides, how many people retrain in different careers later in life?
Personally I believe women don’t want to go back to work because it’s a status thing. Being a housewife has a certain status quo to it. You interact with service people all the time, have endless time to pursue interests, all clothes bought are different forms of leisure wear, unrestricted schedules, not to mention that people in your life know that you’re “taken care of”. The last thing you want to do is face reality, put on a frumpy uniform and perform customer service for others.
Dr. Tara is not against traditional roles here, she is against women who take on no role (except for entitled teenager). I do think that the best remedy for this situation is that men must require more from their girlfriends before getting married.
Having said all that, my heart really does go out to the men who have children with these unreasonable women. I can’t think of anything more painful then parent alienation.
I tired to explain that women should work to my co-parent when it came to my attention his current girlfriend has been a stay at home mom for seven years, collect two separate child support checks, and no degree. I was met with not everyone can have a job as well paying as yours and she has a job (uh nope she volunteers).
Then it was, I was just jealous and unable to cope with him dating. This is not his first girlfriend and we have not been together for 5 years and divorced. Please two women are not competing with each other on your account.
The reason I even brought it up was we have two children, he has them to provide the highest standard of leaving for and in order for his paramour not to cause a financial burden to us all is for her to be gainfully employed. Sadly he wants what he wants, no matter the issue.
He even said that money isn’t everything while in the same conversation that he bemoans the child support he does pay me. What? crazy making.
I think it’s positive that you bring it up to men because if other women in the man’s life does we have malice motives and he isn’t even contemplating the points. Maybe your writing on it they will make educated choices in partners.
As a woman, I work full time, go to school full time and help my BF raise his two children.
His EX was one of these woman that refused to work. He paid for her to go to school several times but she never got a degree. He paid for her to take classes with HR Block to do taxes. She took one class then refused to go.
After the divorce, she refuses to work. She has one scheme after another but never makes money and refuses to just get a job.
She even told him at one point that she was going to sue Disney because they promised her a Knight in shining armor that would make her dreams come true. She divorced my BF because he was giving her “the white picket fence” life that she deserved. All I can think is, Your not 5. Grow up.
I could never understand this. She wanted certain life style yet refused to participate in making it happen.
Even now with 4 kids, she still hasn’t realized that the only way she is going to get the life she wants is for HER to work for it. No one is going to walk up and knock on her door with the key to the kingdom.
It will be interesting to see what happens when the children age out and the Welfare and CS stops. Will she be living in a van down by the river? Only if she’s lucky.
This right here
is a HuffPo headline. Selfishly, for my own amusement, I would love read about a woman suing Disney for this reason.
What you’re describing, ninji, is ENTITLEMENT. She’s “special,” therefore, of course she deserves all of these things without doing a lick of work to earn them.
She’ll keep having kids. At least that’s what I saw the welfare folks in SC do. And then they train the kids to become SS wards so they can live off them in adulthood. Its terrible.
TomG – I have followed your postings with great interest as I have a wife of 31 years and I’m going through what your experiencing. Our kids are grown adults where our daughter a college graduate in marketing opened up a business of her own where my wife works six days a week and not has contributed one dime to the everyday household expenses. My wife claims she owns 51% of the business and complains that she has no time to do the household chores like cleaning and I asked her since she is working how much does she make? Always her answer is non of my business or paying off a school loan of some $400 a month. My wife is doing this to support and build a business for our daughter and I find it quite odd which was going on now for over a year. Here I am paying for everything, no debt and yet she is very capable of supporting herself or contributing to hiring a cleaning person to clean the house. I find it ironic what she tells me to to do the household chores when she knows I am out of town on project work. I keep on asking her why are you there working for nothing supporting our daughter when you are very capable of finding gainful employment elsewhere and let our daughter run the business. Let her hire the help she needs all your doing is working for nothing and drawing what the business makes to cover what loans you have. I repeatedly asked her if the business is doing well and covers what expenses you are more than capable of finding a better job. Her remarks were she will not change and it is the man of the house who has to pay everything.
We argued and the talk of a divorce was spoken but neither of us have yet to file, we live in a perpetual resentment state, more like arguing co-habitats than man and wife. I do my own laundry when I am home, there no intimacy anymore, on-going for a couple of years. She threatens me I will pay dearly in a divorce claiming she reared the kids as a stay at home mom, far from the truth as she did work and her mother helped as well overseeing them when they were young. I am seeing a clinical psychologist to help me sort out my next move which will be filling for divorce, I am also keeping a diary of events, outbursts documenting every word she makes, text messages – all of it. Yes I have soul searching I must do for a wife that sees me as $$$ and nothing more.
Let me also add the my wife just left for a 4th of July vacation closed the business for two days, now where is the logic they have over $2,000 all said and done to go on a trip yet she fails to even tell me where she is going had to find that out from my daughter. My own daughter also moved out to an apartment she is paying for so obviously the business is doing well.
Oh my! Mine was a complete sweetheart before we married. She was having terrible relationship issues with her adult children that I didn’t understand – getting it one sided from her mostly although I witnessed some nasty and hateful words between them. One daughter got a restraining order against her and all cut themselves off from her. Angry with me for stopping the hatefulness ( as best I could) they injected me into it saying they never wanted to see her again and if it was ever going to be possible, that I would never be welcome or accepted by them. In the proceeding 10 months we got along fine but she slipped a couple of times and said some things to me (hateful things) and I excused it for her being under so much stress As soon as we married, a bout two weeks later – she announces she’s quitting her job. I had a small building project left to finish, having been self employed for the last 29 years and no job otherwise. She quits her job without a plan for the 140000 mortgage she took out to build a second home (original one was hers from previous marriage) – she built in order to live there on the property before I met her and her daughter with two children and her fiancé could ‘buy’ the old house by making the mortgage payments.
So, no plan for quitting her job or paying her mortgage and would not discuss it with me – just always telling me what she wants to do. Coloring books? Maybe not that but a cajillion crafts materials gathered in the spare bedroom and she does little or none of those. She didn’t tell me she had $5000.00 a month income after quitting her job – she let me think she was just going to throw it all on me to take care of. by the fourth week of marriage, I came up with a business idea we could do from home – building a wood fired pizza oven. This required a licensed commercial kitchen – so I built this kitchen and gathered all the materials for two ovens. She fought me and ordered me around for the next 14 months and I get steadily fed up with it. Stalling or stopping the kitchen from getting done. Pissing and moaning if I wasn’t at home with her but being a tornado when I was -she pushed me way more and more. I could not reason with her and tried. Not possible. In April, after I’d finished maple syrup season, I finished that damn kitchen and several other projects and she just couldn’t appreciate it. Hated it when I was with friends or family – calling them or me or texting – forever always careful not to let anyone else see her psychotic behaviors. I began spending time away from her when she’d get stupid – so, she wasn’t able to control me anymore and filed for divorce.
She didn’t want to work? We’re in our mid fifties – that was the plan then. She wanted to stay home, and control me to always work at pleasing her. Her older sister listened and observed it all and in the end, met me along side my narc declaring how I’m supposed to be the man of the house and working, taking care of her better and supporting her. She had to walk right by the new commercial kitchen to even get in the house to say this! What the hell do ye think I’ve been doing??? I reckon her sister and her brothers know there is something not right with her – the brothers stay away and the sister pretty much does too, except to care on a superficial relationship. She’s allowed her adult children to manipulate her into dumping me and I’m sure believing she’s entitled now to their love and attention, having gotten rid of me as they pushed her for. I am disappointed and sick of the drama. Even through the divorce, she’s defied all court orders and continues to be as hateful and obstructive as possible and her lawyer can’t seem to reason with her either. She’s got the money to pay for a lawyer and I am having to represent myself. The court seems against me and efforts to reason with the process. I was confident once a lawyer and a judge got involved that she would be unable to keep acting like this. She’s not lazy – she just wants to have someone there to dictate to and control completely. Nothing I could do mattered or was ever enough. Can’t wait for this divorce to be over with!!! Arrrrgg!
This is my fear.
How did it end up? Are you free and are you happy that you left?
I hope the answer is yes 🙂
I was raised in an upper-middle class home with a SAHM and got a great education. I met my husband in grad school. I always assumed that SAHM would be an option for me. When we got our degrees in ’08 the job market was not good, we had to start paying off student loans and our son had just been born. When we realized the reality, it seemed clear I would work. Well, fast forward and it was the best thing that could have happened. My husband and I each make 50% of the household income. I’ve moved into an “important” job where I am treated with respect and get to travel (not more than I want) and know I am contributing to society (I’m in the public sector). If God forbid something happens to my husband I know I can support our two children. We would not have to move from our home. They would not have to change schools or have a major change in lifestyle.
We are now almost 40 and are starting to think about saving more so perhaps we can retire in early 50s. By all means, if money is not an issue, work or don’t work! But when I see these SAHMs living in $600k homes and peddling whatever candle, face cream, etc. trying to make a couple hundred bucks a month, I don’t get it. I can make that in a couple hours just sitting in my office, but I live in a $200k home . . . My position is not cushy — I’ve work hard and I still work hard — but I’ve reached the level that as a professional I do not have a boss breathing down my neck all day.
This isn’t too say my life is easy or I don’t ever sit and wonder “what if” about choices I’ve made. I take great pride in knowing I can support my family, i.e., put food on the table and a roof over their heads. I thank God I was attracted to a technical field and am paid a “man’s” salary. A lot of women work much harder than I do in teaching and other caring professions but don’t make as much as I do, and I don’t think that is fair.
I refuse to feel like I need to do all the housework either. My husband is a modern man and does his share around the house. Some things he and I like better than others and we just do what comes naturally and neither one of us take advantage of the other. Sometimes the house is messy but neither one of us points fingers, we just start cleaning.
No, on my death bed I do not think that I will wish I had spent more time at the office than with my family. If we won the lottery or got an inheritance from a long lost relative, hubby and I might just quit our jobs tomorrow. He would love to pursue his dream to be a full-time writer, something he does on his own time time. BUT, I do have a deep satisfaction knowing I can make it in man’s world and provide for my own. It’s been hard, but the rewards are becoming more evident now, and I can confidently say I’m a feminist and know I’m walking the walk and not just talking . .
Looks like I’m about a decade late to this article party, but I wanted to make a couple of comments about my own experiences just in case anyone is still reading this:
1. If she wants to work, she will. No excuses, ifs, ands, or buts. If she’s not working, it’s because she doesn’t want to. And why should she bust her butt at a job that is “beaneth” her when she has you? Stop facilitating her immaturity. We all have a right to expect out partners to contribute equally to the security of our family in whatever form that takes.
2. If you are a parent, have your kids do chores at home without pay. Even small children can help clean up their rooms and put away toys and clothes to understand that everyone needs to do their share. Payment can be given for extra chores above and beyond the usual. Start early with the kids to teach them that families work together as a team to run a successful household and that luxuries are earned after necessities have been taken care of. Doing this consistently throughout childhood and adolescence might prevent the childish entitlement we see in so many adults now.
Hey Dr. T., I just came upon your website. I love my wife beyond what I could write here. We met in middle age, we have no kids, and we knew within two dates that we were a match. My wife amazing, intelligent, a great companion, and everything I could ever hope for, except… She quit her job three years ago when we moved for my job. This was a mutual decision as her job was about to end anyway. Since then, she hasn’t put real effort into getting a new job. And, all of those things folks have posted here, about the stay at home partner cooking dinner, doing the wash, etc. These things aren’t happening. We split chores, cooking and everything else 50/50, even after I’ve put in a nine or ten hour day.
I have a pretty amazing career, but one that pays just a bit more than a teacher’s salary. So, things are tight and we aren’t saving for the future. I know I need to talk to my wife about getting a job and about picking up more of the load at home. I just need to figure out a way to do these things in a way that doesn’t make her resentful or defensive. Writing this out has helped, and I guess I’ll do more on my own. I’ll write out my fears and needs, read more deeply into the posts here, and go from there.
Cut her off. Now. Setup separate bank accounts and deposit only what she needs for house expenses. Tell her if she wants more then she’s an adult who knows how to get it. It only gets worse.
Boy do I agree with THIS article. Our kids and I are suffering with an adult child. my wife. Our kids are pissed at my wife because she’s “sponging” off of me. I’m a disabled veteran and collecting disability from the VA. But since costs are going up, I’ve been bringing up the fact that it is becoming more likely she needs to work. All she says/asks is, “what am I going to do for work?” She says she has no diploma or GED and NO desire to get it, though I’ve supported her in trying to convince her to get her GED.
our oldest daughter, got into an argument about her acting like a child, not having a job to help pay for things like the bills. She uses her back problem as a crutch to try and crush any dissent to her beliefs and desire to not work. I’m beginning to resent her. She keeps bringing up how she was in a supposed “abusive” relationship and her parents treated her badly. Even though I empathize with her, I cannot allow for her to become the monster she claims she’s been around (ex husband, father..). I’m seriously considering a divorce. cut my losses and move on with a clean slate.
Both of our daughters are resentful of her, both appear to dislike her on certain levels. I’m under the opinion that, my wife is an adult-child who expects our kids to police themselves, clean after themselves (no problem) but also to look after their own discipline/activities. She expects our kids to be adults to themselves and do for themselves.. sounds strange but true. But she (my wife) likes to stand by and declare herself a parent. “I’m her mom” etc. My wife seems to like the positives in parenting but despises the negatives.
I think she has serious self image issues and I’ve tried to help her but, after seeing numerous issues with how she just let herself go, she’s ballooned to 289 lbs. She doesn’t understand that her stomach puts undue weight on her back for it to compensate for that weight. Can’t confront her in empathetic terms to do something as she’ll go into a crying fit by alluding to me calling her fat.
I think my beliefs about this generation of women is true. Their moms were part of the feminist movement who, never taught their own daughters how to fend for themselves because their mom’s were too busy standing up for their rights etc. so we have a generation of these women who can’t cook mac and cheese. it’s sad because my mom and dad taught me to take care of myself.
I feel so lost and alone.
Its like we are living the same life. For that, I am sorry Christopher.
When I posted my comment to the main post it came up under yours. I guess I didn’t read down this far. In a way it’s comforting in that at least I know I am not imagining this, nor am I alone but along with all the other comments it leads me to see that there is no way out for me except leaving. I don’t have any more strength left to fight it or to try and fix it (like I could fix her). I thought I could but I realise that this is a delusion.
I would ask you how is it going? It would be good to know that someone has escaped their situation at least even if it isn’t me yet. I hope that whatever you did or happened that you are happy now and that you can be the great father that I am sure that you are without having to wait for her to ruin it.
All the best
When I met my now wife she was in debt to the tune of £40,000. She was coming out of (but still seeing, as a friend, a violent wannabee gangster hardman) a bad relationship. She was working in a dead-end job and living with her parents at the age of 32. She lied her way into my life and has been burrowing away at my sanity ever since.
She moved up north to be with me and got another job which she says she had to leave because they were up to illegal activities. She then got another job where she became a partner in a law firm and then was ejected illegally for the partnership. We had just got married and she had been pregnant for a few months. That’s when she told me about her debt (I thought it was £10,000 and she was being paid £2500 per month so no big deal?) she then couldn’t, get a job because she was pregnant. She had the baby and went back to work, got fired, got a payout for unfair dismissal. When al the money had gone she got another job, got pushed out, got another job after 6 months or so and got fired from that though she lied to me about that and said she was pushed out.
I set up cameras in the house to watch her when she was in the last job and caught her not going into work several times when she swore she was there. I even came home one lunchtime and found her in bed asleep when she had told me on the phone an hour before that she was at the office.
I even balanced a coin on her tire and let her tell me a twenty-minute story about how she had got part way to work and then been sent home as the car had broken down and they were letting her work from home that day. when I confronted her and told her why I knew she was lying she flipped out on me and threatened to leave me. However just like every time she found a way for it to be my fault or someone else’s. Of course, when I caught her out she made it my fault.
She is a liar and a fraud. She has mentally and financially abused me for years. She will never change. In the last 2 weeks, we have rowed about money. She wants holidays and to buy stuff for the house we don’t NEED. We are overdrawn a few thousand at the bank practically all the time.
She had a job that actually paid her god money but she said it was too hard. So now we are back to an unequal situation. I look after the kids myself and she has whittled down what she does to cook 1 meal a day and supposedly washing the clothes. There is a mountain 3 feet high and 4 feet wide in the cellar of unwashed clothes. We have a 9kg washer and a 9kg dryer. If I wanted to I could clear it in 2 days easily. She is lazy though and needs something to moan about. She will never contribute through working a job or doing anything much around the house except to buy stuff that she then abuses and destroys. I should have seen it coming as her parents were both the same.
I used to think you couldn’t change people but people can change themselves. Now I know that PEOPLE DONT CHANGE, and if they do its only till they can slip back to their status quo. If you see change then KNOW its a lie and it wont last.
I didn’t mean to be in this forum. I was looking for an article about wives who does not work but keep the home unclean. I have a couple of friends who are like these. I need to see the reasons behind it and what their husbands say and think about it. Wow, I’m surprised. I am fortunate to have a happy and healthy family. My husband is working full time, I work full time. We have a daughter who is now almost 18. I got married when I was 19 right after high school. As a wife of 23 years marriage, I have to say that when I entered marriage, I made a conscious decision that I need to work because I want to have a happy family. I don’t want money to be an issue. I also need to have an income because I don’t want my husband to pay if I need a new pair of shoes. I managed to go college working part time. I got pregnant after 5 years of our marriage. When my baby was born I went right back to schooling and job. We took turn babysitting and we paid someone to watch her in between time that we are not available. Yes, it was difficult juggling both but I had to keep reminding myself to keep going after a year or two it will be fine and we can relax. Financially, we were not hurting. We had plenty of funds in the bank. My husband and I are always in the same page when it comes to budgeting and taking care of our chores. We even paint the house together on weekends. Life is still good until today and I still work full time. My daughter turned out to be a responsible person. At 17 she has a job making about $1,000 a month working in a restaurant. Going to college this fall.
My success story is not a brag but a testimony that happy marriage do exists and both have to work together to create a solid plan. Marriage is happy if there is money in the bank. As a wife, I also take 50% control. I know what bills we pay and how much we spent on other things. We put our money in the same account and I do allow my husband to spend $1000 a month to buy whatever he likes. I can also buy my things with no guilt.