Many men are able to avoid becoming involved with unstable, entitled, abusive, empathically challenged, manipulative, emotionally immature, personality disordered and/or sociopathic women. Perhaps they had loving parents who taught the to respect and love themselves enough not to be tempted by the siren song of Crazy.
However, there are many men who are less fortunate. They have to learn the hard way how to detect, avoid and break themselves of their attraction to Crazy. Some of these men were parentified and abused by their mothers.
They were groomed from an early age to think abuse is normal. Some were raised by loving, well-intentioned parents who taught them that men are honor bound to protect women, treat all women with respect (no matter how unwarranted) and to make women happy no matter the personal cost.
Today’s Going Mental is for the men who are still learning how to spot the good eggs from the bad ones – recognizing early warning signs and red flags.
The program will begin at 3pm EDT, 2pm CDT, 1pm MDT and 12pm PDT.
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Counseling with Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD
Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD helps individuals work through their relationship and codependency issues via telephone or Skype. She specializes in helping men and women trying to break free of an abusive relationship, cope with the stress of an abusive relationship or heal from an abusive relationship. Coaching individuals through high-conflict divorce and custody cases is also an area of expertise. She combines practical advice, emotional support and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Schedule a Session page for more information.
Want to Say Goodbye to Crazy? Buy it HERE.
I like the format of these video series. Reading the comments/articles here is great, and the video is a real nice addition too. Good info & I like the back-and-forth between Elam & Dr. T, a man’s perspective & a woman’s perspective (that actually agree!).
These videos should be mandatory in at least jr. high or high school as part of sex-ed classes.
I love that too. I’d love to see how does this topic survive in shorter form, like 4×15 mins podcasts instead of 1x1hr.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
Shorter podcasts are an interesting idea.
For the record, I don’t agree. I love the longer podcasts. I don’t understand why anyone would want less of Dr. T and Paul! This is valuable stuff, here.
I tend to agree with you ABC. It takes some time to delve into these subject(s) and get the message across, and how to prevent and/or deal with crazy. I do think a Shrink4Men flyer or highlights sheet would be nice, with bullet points on crazy stuff, that I could read before bed and take with me on the road! 🙂
Dr Tara Palmatier says
Thank you, cuatezon!
Unfortunately, some of the crazies appear very normal. I was communicating with a woman via online dating. Korean gal, but came to U.S. as adolescent & has been living in U.S. past 25yrs. Email exchanges were very normal and light-hearted. All of her pictures were normal. A very cute gal, nice smile, intelligent, grade school teacher w/ 2 kids.
Several email exchanges all seemed good so we talked on phone the other night (she called me). She was a bit passive but conversation seemed okay, although it seemed like she was either disappointed in my voice(?) or waiting for something like I should take over the conversation, I have no idea.
I asked her what grade she taught, and she said something I couldn’t understand…then ‘click’ the call ended. She texted me a minute later and said she’s sorry its bad time to talk. She said her friend was next to her and stared at her and it made her very uncomfortable. I didn’t reply. She then called me 2-3 times over the next 10 minutes but I didn’t answer. The next morning she texted me and apologized for what happened and wished me a nice day. I blocked her on the dating website. Quite disappointing b/c she was very cute and seemed pretty normal & intelligent…until the phone call. I guess my point is they don’t always ‘appear’ crazy and can do a good chameleon job for awhile. Cuatezon 1…Crazies 0
Good job on that. I don’t mean to be offensive, but isn’t “online dating site” a red flag already?
Me myself I spent a lot of time on dating sites in my past, but now I avoid them. I heard a girl on TV, advocating dating sites and she was like this: “where do I want to meet that guy? in my work? or at my home? I don’t like cinema or going out, I don’t have time for sports”.
Now I actually think about a GREEN flag for one particular girl – she has a FB profile, but it is blank. Me myself, I am not on FB, because some day I just felt, that this all “friends” and “likes” thing was bullshit and was totally not translateable to the thing called “real life”.
No offense taken friend. Online dating not the preferred method for me, but, since I’m older, work from home, relatively new to an area still, and am not a big bar/club person, its pragmatic. Have actually met a couple decent people this way. Fact is, many people these days, especially women, are narcissistic princesses, regardless of where you meet them. Online allows me to filter more safely via their profile, email and eventual phone conversation. So there are pro’s and con’s I suppose.
You’re older – so what? There’s that 64yr old woman, who swam from Cuba to Florida, http://www.ted.com/talks/diana_nyad_never_ever_give_up .
New to an area – so what? Staying at home in front of your PC, talking with people away from you — how is this going to help you?
Bars and clubs are not everything, there are plenty of other places.
Do you like to run, walk, bike, skate, do you go to cinema?
Dude triggerhappy, I know you’re trying to be motivational/inspirational, but its not coming across that way. Its sounding kind of shaming and critical.
I appreciate your suggestions but the last relationship I had was with a classic NPD (Narccisist) that I met in person playing volleyball on the beach. She was a humdinger too. The world is full of nasty people and it doesn’t matter where you go for socializing or dating, they abound everywhere. I get out plenty on hiking, beach and other activities so please stop assuming I sit at home on a PC all day. I spend about 10 min a day online dating, and as I said earlier, its actually a nice tool b/c I can filter many a Narcissist out just based on their profile thank you very much.
I think you need to take your own inventory & work your own program, and if you have some actual helpful, non-assuming advice for others feel free to share in a constructive way.
Your mind interprets the words I wrote, nothing else.
I wonder if you are really so cool with your self, or if you are just rationalizing.
I spent a lot of time hunting for women on dating sites or ICQ in the past. Now I choose the good, old traditional way, why? Because I think, that my choices in the past caused my current situation, that’s why. So, If I don’t have guts to approach her and ask her out, or even better – to make her interested in me – I am not spending any time in the net doing “online dating” stuff.
Triggerhappy, an appropriate pseudonym. You’re sounding more like a cluster B. Most the folks here support each other, and if there is a point of contention then its clearly communicated and no shaming, innuendos or word games.
If you’re still married or going through a divorce, and still living with her, then wondering why you’re ‘dating’ other women. Probably not a good idea, but hopefully you’re informing those women of your situation so they are aware.
I’m not actually dating anyone ATM. And as for support, don’t expect me to support you in online dating, that’s all.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
Some of your posts are coming across as a bit combative. It’s okay to disagree and hold each other accountable, but let’s keep it civil, thank you.
I would say that you are correct in your assumption that online dating is a red flag to start with. If you are not crazy and go through some online dating such as myself to try it out. It didnt take too long to figure out that most of the women I dated were off their rocker. Most of them couldn’t sustain a real relationship if their life depended on it. We have this saying at work that ” for every good looking woman in this world somewhere some man is sick of her bullshit.” I myself will be glad when enough men stand up for themselves and take their balls back from these women and put them where they belong. For too long men have given in to these crazy bitches and its past time for a change in the right direction.
The_Muppett_ show says
Ah ah, good one Cuatezon ( your score)
So far my score sucks. more like me and the kids 0 and crazy 5.
But I should get the advantages of my disadvantages soon now. YEAH!
Back to your post: Crazies don’t catch flies with vinegar. They come along normal and sweet.
Ahh thanks Muppetshow. I won a small battle on that one, but I’ve taken many a lumps and fallen in many a trap. True that, crazies use many techniques & strategies to catch their prey. I continue to be amazed though, at how normal & sane many of these people appear only to see through their charade & discover a massive black hole. Here is a great website I came across about socialized sociopaths, very very good stuff and its a lady who acknowledges & recognizes both male & female sociopaths. http://www.thenarcissistinyourlife.com
LT Greenwald says
Cuatezon, I hear ya man! I did the online dating thing too. Met some seemingly normal women who turned out to be quite maladjusted. My favorite ‘crazy’: I get drinks with a chick at a fancy bar in DC. She asks me what I do for a living. When she finds out I’m in the military she tells me that it’s her impression that every woman in the military has been raped. At this point, I’m looking for my “escape plan.” Lol. So I pay the tab (she doesn’t offer to pay — odd because she made a point of blabbing about what a huge feminist she was). I thank her for the lovely conversation and try to get away. Then asks me which direction I’m walking in! Of course, she says she’s going the same way. We start walking, and not 10 steps later, she starts RUNNING in the opposite direction. I kid you not! A few minutes later she texts me apologizing and saying that she saw someone who would like to see her on a date. I reply that I thought that was incredibly weird. She asks if I want to go out again. I say no thanks.
The hard thing about is sometimes I think I’m being too critical. I’m un shy because my ex-wife seemed so totally normal when I met her. Turned out she was a violent BPD with a cutting habit. Are most woman completely crazy? Probably not. But how crazy is too crazy? It’s a tough call… 🙂
You made my day with “looking for escape plan”. CONGRATS and THANKS – I am actually LEARNING from you, guys.
@LtGreenwold – ‘Play Misty for Me’ is showing on TV (Encore channel) as I type! I call it movie therapy. Sounds like you dodged a bullet with the DC gal. Wow. I know what you mean.
Sometimes, there aren’t the obvious red flags. I’m starting to see the differences between Borderlines and the Narcsissists. Borderlines seem to be more overly emotional & impulsive & dramatic. Narcissists seem to be much more cunning, manipulative, shrewd & socially successful. Of course many carry traits of both.
The gal I was dating about 2yrs ago was a serious elitist/narcissist. She was a doctor, well-connected, successful, lots of social activity, and not a lot of overt emotional drama. So when I started getting bad vibes/signals/flags, like you, I began to doubt myself or thought I’m being too critical or too sensitive. So many covert head games though, and a growing anger issue. One example of head game: Memorial Day weekend she said her mom was coming to visit so we couldn’t hang out. A few days before the weekend, she reminded me we couldn’t hang out ‘because an old high school friend (guy) was coming in from NYC and staying with her’. When I reminded her it was supposedly her mom coming to town, she blushed, fumbled for words a bit and said no its her buddy from high school & he would be sleeping on the couch. I was like, no, you said it was your mom & I even repeated it to you…so I just said whatever. Then, the day her ‘friend’ was supposed to arrive, she calls me up and said he missed his flight, couldn’t get another flight, but he will get a full refund or something and that we can now hang out for the weekend. It was weird. Anyway, lots of head-ish games like this and I was doubting myself, again, because I thought ‘gosh this is a doctor, successful, clean-cut woman’. I could write more red-flag stuff but this suffice for now. It was a real bummer though b/c I really liked the girl and we met in person on the beach, not online… *sigh*
Looks for me like she wanted to bang the other guy. First, she lied, but later looks like she forgot about this and wanted to change her strategy. “She’s so beautiful she has to tell the truth” was my false thinking in my last relationship in the past, looks like you falled for “successful, clean-cut woman”…
cuatezon, do you know TheRedPill by any chance?
LT Greenwald says
A doctor, huh? 😉 She sounds like she was tryin to upgrade! Lol. Sounds like you made the right call. And I love how women make even worse liars than we men do. The common denominator with these women is that you start to notice that their stories don’t “add up.” That’s a big red flag. Also, anytime a chick wants to tell you all about her favorite personal story of victimhood at the hands of a man… especially on the first date! They wanna tell you what a turd their ex is, or that their a victim of any manner of male-only perpetrated crimes — domestic violence, rape, sexual harassment. Something so personal shouldn’t be shared so soon — the person is either lying, or crazy, or both.
Glad I’m finally figuring these things out! 🙂
Haha yes LtGreenwold, a doctor. Hopefully I didn’t sound like I was ‘bragging’…although to be honest, it kinda felt good to be liked/desired(?) by a doctor, I guess. She was an incessant complainer about her parents, her brother, the people at her work. Everyone was mistreating & taking advantage of her. We dated a little over a year. She tried 3-4 different therapists within a month span b/c she wanted to deal with her ‘issues’. Basically therapist-shopping for one who would support her narcissism.
One time we were heading out for a hike and her associate (another doctor) called her about something. After the call I asked who it was and she told me. I felt kind of disappointed b/c during the call, she told him she was going hiking (didn’t mention anything about me) and he invited himself to join her (he’s married with kids). She laughed and said ‘maybe another time’. I asked her about this and she just shrugged it off as harmless flirting.
Another time, she told me how she went out to a friends birthday party at some restaurant/bar. She said the bouncer (must be a nice place) wouldn’t let her into the private area for the party; so she gave him her business card and offered him free medical services if she could go in. She got in. She told me about this & said the bouncer “was a really big, strong guy. I don’t see anything wrong what I did, I just wanted to get into the party was all.” I think she was trying to make me jealous(?).
Anyway, I could go on…but my point being it was initially hard for me to accept a woman, and a doctor, someone society tends to hold in higher esteem and supposedly ethical, would act like a silly little junior high girl playing games. *sigh*
This has nothing to do with the article: I am currently heading for the divorce. I am paying the rent for ~7 yrs. My abusive wife suddenly realizes that and wants to pay a part of it. What is this strategy called, what is she doing now? Should I accept that or not?
The_Muppett_ show says
I think you can clearly correlate your divorcing her to her wanting to help financially. As you know or can imagine separating from someone you love is difficult even for crazy. Crazy has never been very committed to the cause. Crazy has been petty and never really been “in” and doesn’t want to really be “out” either. Crazy doesn’t do closure too well either. You won’t much hear “I don’t love you, it’s over, let’s get divorced”. Crazy floats in another mental dimension where the rules are theirs only, are shifting and only for you to follow. Actually Crazy has no problem having side relationships that way they can be somewhat divested from you and invested in others. That’s the concept of hovering that Dr. T talks about. That might be a way to stick around and get more from you because even though she told you you were the worst we both know you are not nearly that bad!. If you know past the memory of good times that you want her out of your life don’t take the offer and keep her out and away from you. It’s a mental effort on your part to fend her off. I shouldn’t give advice as every situation is different and the solutions needs customization but get her out and tell her that her behavior is abnormal, unloving and unacceptable and that she needs her head fixed and that you both can see after that. Tell her it’s not her fault and you understand that but that it’s not your or the kids either ( if you have kids) and yet the responsibility to work through it is mainly hers. Hope this helps and doesn’t confuse you more than you probably are thanks to Crazy. A physical separation is a healthy thing when the one you love is nuts. It allows chilling, re-centering, de-escalating, self-reflection ( introspection). I believe a good part of you is totally pissed off and angry at her and rightfully so and it’s a normal and healthy response( I often wonder if those are the witches who got burned at the stake in the Middle Ages (cathartic hey)), yet you can’t make good decisions while angry. Divorce is “total” and in that way safer and 100% guaranteed, but you can’t have regrets and for that you can’t look back. it’s a one-way trip and should be engaged-in as such.
I’m doing the same FYI, filing after 22 years, 3 kids ( one whose only 6 YO) a ruined MBA career etc…Soon to be ex is histrionic, alcoholic, anxiety disorder and more…She would lie but never change. My ray of sunshine is that I am a foreigner and can go back 5,000 miles away where a very decent life awaits me and hopefully my kids if the courts grant it to me. I can put myself in many of the men’s ( and women) place because even though all situations are unique and different they are also very similar. How sad. Emotionally and economically ruining the Crazies can be. If you have no kids, divorce for sure cause you ain’t Jesus and don’t need to be. He died on the cross for all Their sins.
Thanks, man. This really looks like it — “I hate you as a husband, but we do have a nice flat so here’s the rent”.
For the rest of your post, no, I am not going to tell her SHIT.
I was for over 2 yrs on group therapy for addicted, I spent lot of time on meetings, I took 6-months of Self-Mastery Course by Joelene Ashker (and paid big money for it and EVERY SINGLE DOLLAR I SPENT ON THAT COURSE WAS TOTALLY WORTH IT), I think I read almost every book by Steve Chandler and some more books like “The Relationship Handbook” by George Pransky, and I can afford dr T services and I would took sessions with dr T if only I saw need for them, but I dont now. So, tl;dr — I am not a proffessional psychologist or coach by any means, BUT I CAN HELP OTHERS, I do have pretty smart insights from time to time.
So basically, if she wanted me to call her “crazy slut”, she would have to pay me in advance, because that would be both coaching AND a diagnosis.
I am not going to tell her anything. There was enough time. There was a lot of times I tried to get anything to her. Enough.
Also, telling her anything about her own behaviour would be just another form of being a white knight.
So, thank you, but no.
Just an observation. A friend of mine once had a choir student with multiple diagnoses: ADHD, Bi-polar…the list goes on and I can’t remember all of them.
The kid was a gifted singer and was in his top choir. At one of the concerts, the kid removed his socks and made singing sock puppets that popped up in between singers at random times in the concert. This was after several other incidents, like doing a party-boy and rubbing up against at a different event.
My friend approached the kid after the concert and said, “I know your life is a roller coaster, but there’s a difference between hanging on for dear life and throwing your hands in the air, and, son, you’re throwing your hands in the air.”
It was the best analogy for milking mental illness that I’ve ever heard. I have yet to meet a personality disordered person, either in my personal or professional life, that didn’t enjoy the dysfunction to a degree because the mental illness gets them what they want….power, control, you name it.
Good one Jmorg. It almost sounds like he may be on the autistic spectrum or aspbergers or something, especially with the acting out in public and being oblivious to social cues, etc.
My school has a high population of students with autism, and reflecting on my friend’s description, I highly doubt he was on the autism spectrum because he could pick up on social cues and manipulate them. Rubbing up against the girl’s backside was a challenge, as in, “you can’t punish me because I’m mentally ill.”
I can’t wait to view this. I saw the first one….and LOVED it. I will give it a view after work. The content on the first one made a lot of sense. Thank you for the openness and honesty.
Wow. A woman being held accountable. Wonder if the conviction will hold up. Of course if it had been a man who somehow accidentally overdosed his kid to death, it would be a life sentence:
SC woman gets 20 years in breast feeding overdose:
Hopefully, I have been approved for commenting by now.
I have been really grateful for this site and for these discussions. My marriage has descended from relative happiness to sadness, verbal abuse, physical abuse, intimidation, yelling, name calling, etc, in a matter of six months. Its really sad, but I havent done anything to continue to warrant this treatment.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. It gives me strength to see that others have dealt with these same types of issues.
Do you think, that your wife may be immature enough so she wants you to leave, so you’ll get the blame – instead her?
Add one to the “win” column…
My CBX (Narcissist/Borderline in that order) divorced me 16 months ago. I am out on Match now and found an interesting lady quite close to my age.We had some pretty significant differences in faith and political perspectives. We traded some emails and agreed on a location for a first meeting. the emails were fun and upbeat. By profession, she has a pretty good global-level position with a high-tech company. So… she is smart.
Every morning, Match sends me 24 sugegstions. IMAGINE MY SURPRISE when I find a very familiar picture with a different screen name and different faith affiliation aged seven years younger with lots of suggestive, kissy-duck-lips pictures. One picture was identical in both profiles.
When dating my ex, I pushed through the red flags. When I was younger, I had to understand why a red flag was a red flag. This time, I just accepted this as a red flag and did not need to know any more. I sent her an email and pulled the plug on our meeting. She sent an irate reply saying that she had misrepresented her age in that profile because she likes younger guys.
I replied “Thank you.” She replied with venom and that confirmed I had correctly discerned and acted on the information. Hard lessons make for long memories.
Dr Tara Palmatier says
Gotta love it. You bust her in a lie and you’re “the asshole.”
Dr. T., I just keep playing your entire comment in my head. This was the insidious story of my marriage. I could never wrap my head precisely what did not add up in her stories, but, dang. you nailed the scenario when I questioned her
Delta 1…Crazies 0
Okay, I know isn’t the forum for my online dating forays, but, feel its good to post clips of profiles here to show Crazy, and, in the rare instances like this one, to show possible Sanity. This is the first I’ve ever seen where a woman stated the most important person in her life was her ‘father’. Its usually some female professor, her mom (normal I guess), the Dalai Lama, Hillary Clinton, etc. Anyway here is the clip from the profile:
“my father. He has overcome so much in his life and did not succumb to his environment growing up. He has gone through 2 major back surgeries and still maintains an active lifestyle. On his 68th and 69th birthdays, we took a 10 mile walk on the Las Vegas strip! I can’t wait to get him out there for his 70th :-). Even though I am grown, he is still a huge part of my life. He gives me the occasional guidance and pep talks that I need sometimes.”
Saying “No” to Personality Disordered Women
I’m going to give two recent examples of saying “no”, one to my mother and the other to my ex-wife. Ex-wife was labeled a BPD by our marriage counselor as well as by my boss’s wife, a highly regarded PhD in psychology, who met my ex several times during business parties. Writing this just now, I am sad to realize: 1. it is very difficult to get away from an ex you share children with and 2. only recently have I come to grips that I was raised by a BPD. Anyways, here are two examples written in narrative for the reader’s “enjoyment” and more proof.
1. (Two years ago) my four boys (17, 14, 8, and 4 years old) and I were watching the war series “Pacifica” later evening. It’s dark in the room with lights low, very quiet and peaceful, we’re all just laying around flopped on different couches and chairs eating pop corn. Very idealic setting actually. After going through some traumatic divorces events, I guess I “coddle” my boys somewhat but I feel they need some protection from excessive drama. My 72 year old mother is visiting; she enters the living room where all the boys and I are watching the TV and says “I’d like to watch the news.” I reply, “Ok, go upstairs and watch it on the TV in the loft.” My mother than very firmly and loudly says “No, I want to watch the new on THIS TV!” I again reply very calmly, “No, you can watch it upstairs on the TV in the loft. We’re all FIVE of us watching TV here.” My mother at this point begins screaming “No! I’ve been working very hard all day and I DESERVE to watch the news down here!!!” Again, I reply very quiet and calmly, “No, you can watch it upstairs.” (I learned this quiet calm demeanor after dealing with my wife/ex-wife for years.) Now this is where this one gets VERY WEIRD, or as we say “Crazy train moving 100 mph!” My mother screams all kinds of words I’ve forgotten (or tuned out) and goes into the guest bathroom about 50 feet distant but direct path for sound to the living room, closes the bathroom door, starts screaming, AND REPEATEDLY FOR SEVERAL MINUTES SLAMS THE GLASS SHOWER DOOR, opening it and slamming it, over and over and over. As this is going on I didn’t realize what was happening until my boys — I guess with better hearing — asked “Dad is gma slamming the shower door over and over?” To this day and suppose the remainder of their lives my sons immediate association when they hear “grandma” is that shower door slamming. NOW HERE’S BPD BEHAVIOR: SHE DENIES IT EVER HAPPENED even though five of us witnessed it.
2. My ex-wife asked my for the kids recently (4 wks ago) for a camping trip over a weekend that was my week. I said “no” via text message. I don’t want to go into too much detail, but for THREE DAYS straight I received probably 6 to 10 text messages a day about a paragraph long each repeatedly telling me what a horrible father and man I was to prevent my boys from going with her. She also would try “nice” manipulative ploys etc. My issue was that I already had plans to take my boys to a festival and therefore said “No” because of that. But in any case, it WAS MY WEEKEND WITH THE KIDS BY DIVORCE DECREE and it was completely in the norm for me to say “No” and that be the end of it. But it wasn’t. The reaction by my ex-wife to “No” was incredible and completely out of normalcy.
So saying “no” to a disordered person often is a good “recon” method to verifying. My ex-wife was stated BPD by professional psychologists, but comparing her behavior to my mother, which there are extremely scary parallels, makes me pretty confident my mother is a BPD too.
I’m registered on a website ‘thechangeblog.com’. Its about changing way of thinking, proactive changes, positive thinking, etc. Well, a lady wrote an article on their about fights w/ her husband. The title of the article?
‘How I Went from Fearing Fights with My Husband to Starting Them’
Basically she says lots of fighting and starting fights in a relationship is healthy. At first I thought maybe she was being abused or mistreated. But as I read on, it seemed more & more they were both abusers of each other. So I chimed in politely and said that constant fighting in a relationship causes tension & is harmful, unhealthy. Well the author was surprised I came to this conclusion & said I didn’t understand her article. Some other women chimed in too indicating I was ‘clueless’. Yet, if you read the article its basically saying regular fighting is good. I don’t know, maybe I’m hypersensitive to the subject, but just seems to me a lot of fighting in a relationship is a bad sign. I dunno….
Have you been to http://reddit.com/r/TheRedPill subreddit?
The_Muppett_ show says
They are nuts and this is just a Crazy justification for power and the victimized-woman bullshit. I take the field of psychology very seriously. the brain, it’s all we are. but thank God I was raised with sisters and that kept me strong in knowing that my mate was off. I was raised and repeatedly told that women and men are equal. the male is not the only boss, he’s the boss outside the house but the woman is the boss in the house and respect for one another is paramount. I can live with these rules. they are fair. so yeah straightening issues is needed and will be all along the relationship and that might get to fighting at times but all the time? They must be high on power and hatred…..
Dr. T and Paul, thank you for providing this helpful information. After my last three relationships ended and being hurt pretty badly by one I decided to find out why and found this site.
All three are narcissists, two are the classic grandiose type, the one that hurt me the most was a “vulnerable” type. Much harder to see that actually, it’s why I got hurt.
The red flags the both of you spoke of and the previously written lists are spot on.
Here are some of the flags I’ve observed with these serpents I had the misfortune of getting involved with.
1# If a woman approaches you first, be on the extreme lookout.
Especially if they’re attractive. Two of my ex’s both approached me first. Lot’s of charm initially but not after first bad mouthing their ex’s.
Now if I’m on a first date and the woman bad mouths her ex without saying something positive about him, she’s a goner. Actually, I think bringing up an ex on the first date is poor form but many seem to do it.
Which brings us to red flag #2. All three had been married and divorced 3 or more times! One had been through 4 or 5!
I read the odds of someone being married and divorced 3 times or more is around 3%.
Another flag I noted is that they listened to music well out of there age group. All of them are in there 50’s, two around 58. But they listen to recent pop music from the likes of Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, Justin Aldeen and Ed Sheeran. To me it was an indication of their emotional immaturity. This immaturity seems to be the hallmark of people with a NPD, male or female.
Daddy issues. All three despised their fathers, every last one of them.
Lack of personal responsibility and the blame game.
As Paul alluded to they simply cannot accept responsibility for their bad behavior. Or accept any criticism. They just couldn’t be or do any wrong. It was my fault they lied and cheated not theirs.
Cars; Yep, if they’re driving a status car like a Benz or BMW, beware.
Especially if it’s black.
Red fingernails, another telltale warning sign.
Hypocrisy about feminism. The “vulnerable” one liked me to be “chivalrous” as far as opening car doors and buying her dinner but thought men were oppressive towards woman. That’s actually why she left, when she told me she was going out dancing with a single friend at the local meat market I said that would bother me. Of course I was labeled “controlling and possessive”. Their Girls Night Out included dancing with strange men and getting their “sponsors” as they called them, to buy them drinks.
Ultimately I have to accept responsibility for choosing these woman, or as the case may be, they choosing me. So thanks to your help I’m much improved at vetting potential partners now.
We all have to look at ourselves as to why we choose these women. The sad part is that these women unless you are a professional at knowing exactly the kind of questions to ask , and be able to pick up on the lies they are telling you. Narcissistic women are masters at reading your emotions about them . They notice a change in your behavior towards them even in the suttle little bit of a change. This is how they survive in the world. In the beginning of the relationship they are trying to get you hooked onto them emotionally basically through manipulation tactics and they know when they have you , unless you know them first and just play and confuse them first , but you better be on the top of your game. I went through it twice and it is still difficult to pick up on. Many of them I think feels that the world owes them something .
First of all, I’d like to thank you for this site. It is eye-opening and helps me understand more about what I was in to.
I have never been in need to put “severe” boundaries with the people I hold dear and close. My upbringing was healthy and in a very loving family. I always saw how my parents treated each other and how they respected each other’s boundaries.
I’ve had two abusive relationships in a row. However, the first one left me completely devastated because I refused to put boundaries between my ex ex girlfriend and me. Long story short, she ended leaving me for a married guy with kids and even a grandson. It is incredible how this type of women can throw smoke grenades around and confuse you all the time. This relationship left me kind of jumpy, light-triggered and aware of how ANY personality disordered individual can try and will if they have the chance, manipulate you and take away what you hold dear.
After this first relationship I got informed. I was in my MBA and they had this full time psychologist that gave me several books to read. Everything came to sense. Few months later, I met my new GF and this is when things got nasty, AGAIN.
I’d like to mention to you guys the red flags I saw and felt, I did some evasive maneuvers but was stupid enough not to put my off road shoes and run into the mountain for a safe place to hide. The first weird sign was her openness about her most recent relationships. She dated much younger than her guys stating it was “the trend”, and how some just wanted her for sex so she was left “alone and sad”. She portrayed herself as a victim of “bad men” that just wanted to lay her. I know Dr. T and Paul, RED FLAG, RUN!! But I stayed.
As the relationship grew deeper, she narrated her story with a guy that was “Bipolar” and how she tried to control him by sexual means. Now that I am out of the relationship I see the incoherence between this story and the last paragraph: Guys are looking just for sex, but she tried to control the “Bipolar guy” with sex. I think I was too deep in the puddle to walk away that easy..
The next red flag I want to talk to you about is her dad. She lost his dad when she was 25, and while we dated, she stated that I was “identical” to her father in every way, even physically. This is when I told her that I was not her father’s replacement, but I would love her and respect her as she deserved.
Other issues became a constant during our relationship. She is a very proficient professional but when she was with me she entered a victimized-girlish mode that at first glance felt very endearing. WRONG MOVE! this is how she got to my compassionate and “good guy side” but I fought back. After every childish episode she would start with several out-of-discussion demands:
1) Her mother left her when she was three, now she lives with her again but was having a “hard time” so she had seen an empty room in my family’s house and she wanted to “move in”. I DENIED.
2) She has a full time job and an apartment she rents to third parties and makes enough money to have a good life. BUT she always had financial setbacks, and often cried she had nothing to eat, she needed more money and asked me to give her some. I gave a bit..but it was to little for her.
3) As she got more acquainted with my family, se badmouthed my education and started to make crazy comments about her past life with boyfriends, drugs, etc.
4)She took things without permission. She felt she had control over my house and lake-house and started to command to move things around (plants, furniture,etc).
5) Sometimes she withheld sex in very intimate moments, told me I was basing the relationship ONLY in sex.
6) Told me how “expert” she was “blowing”, and sometimes faked orgasms with guys she did not even know.
7) She had a dog. The dog was everything for her. She took in on vacation with me and my family and stated: ” Your son should view the dog as a training program. When we have kids, I will feed them but your son will take care of them all day long”….WTF!!!!!!!!!!!
I could go on forever guys, but I will bore the hell out of you. I just wanted to share several red flags I saw but was stupid enough to EXCUSE THEM and let them pass…
now I am coming out of this mess. She left about one month ago stating I was a baby, that I was not enough of a man, and was not like her father…CRAZY…..BORDERLINE…CRAZY..
The_Muppett_ show says
Sorry for your pain. 20 years with an HPD and alcoholic on my end.
We can and should all learn to avoid these people for sure. But then what becomes of them? Are they let loose in society to create havoc and pain? I think this brings us directly to the state of mental health care in America.
I really don´t know how mental health care in America works. I am from Central America, and this personality dissorders were new for me until two years ago.
I believe that thinking about “what will be of them” will bring more pain to you. I started working on myself with the help of a pshycologist / therapist that knows a lot about this stuff. It has been very revealing and hurtful.
Health care programs might be good IF people with troubles accept and are willing to work things out. It is not their fault because some of them had terrible upbringings, but this should not be an excuse to take you down as if you are nothing.
I am thankful about my education and the love I was given by my family as a kid and as a full-grown adult. However, this gals can fuck up your mind real good. As my ex-relationship grew “fonder” I started to get angry and jumpy. Most of the time I exploded and hurt people that loved me the most because of my desperation. I was going to lose my parents, brother and sister because my ex created explosive atmospheres that were lit with the smallest spark.
These crazy making interactions leave you exhausted, and they can create PTSD no matter how stupid or small the “traumas” might seem to others. I am in EMDR therapy, it has been an interesting ride but in theory, it reboots your brain to its former self. I cannot imagine the damage 20 years of HPD can create in you. I was just 3 years with an HPD and 1.5 with a BPD. Nevertheless, I got burns and some battle scars becuase of the crazy interactions.
It is a jungle out there, use your instincts and trust them, they are never wrong. If they get numb, listen to people who care about you, they can smell shit for miles. And in the most humble way, I would recommend you find help to get out of your troubles. After relationships with crazy people our brains might enter a “self-destruct” mode.
The_Muppett_ show says
Yes they will derail your mind with their behaviors and words.
I have an MBA too and did EMDR as well. EMDR did help me a lot 15 years ago. unfortunately I feel like EMDR and sleeping pills have just made me stronger to put up with more abuse for more years. My ex was still on stealth mode then and I was blamed as a black sheep.
I’m OK today though. trying to start a business to make good money. it’s great. it’s positive and productive and gives me enthusiasm for the future and keeps my mind busy which prevents me from thinking about the whole thing too much. I can’t complain about the NOW. I will just try to be successful financially for now and things will fall in place.
As far as the health care ( mental side) it is not good. It is shallow exploration and solution for problems. too much meds to deal with the symptoms and no deep solution. There are the greatest mental and medical specialists of the world in this country, unfortunately they are not accessible like they should be for everyone. I think genetics and mental health care are the new frontier of the health field. We’ll see. but too many people in society are benefitting from surface work to change it. ( counselors, social services, judicial parties, etc. who thrive on chaos) . The interested parties are interested in managing the symptoms forever, not fixing or putting light on the true deep issues. If you don’t like it and complain they can always tell you that “if you didn’t like it you should have left the situation” which absolves them of social responsibility: easy. People in love don’t think that way.
I couldn’t agree with you more. People in love think in other ways, but when you get involved with a BPD/HPD, it is even more intense. They try to brainwash you to think their bad behaviors are completely normal. This is when your good side kicks in because you want to help them out. The thing is, it doesn’t matter if you give them love OR put boundaries to stop the craziness, the outcome will always be the same.
My ex was happy and admired my career in the beginning of the relationship. She also stated she had “two MBA’s” but at the end, she never finished the programs. 1 month before my graduation she told me it was not going to work out for me, and she was tired of hearing about my day and enthusiasm, that she had problems and she didn’t give a fuck about my day. She tried to bring me down, but here I am with my MBA title!
Now, I think to myself “hell, if she didn’t even want to be with me when I was in my good moments, what would it be like when I was down and needed her to be there for me?”. It is completely different in my family. I have seen how my parents look out for each other in troubling times, and THIS IS WHAT I WANT..for me, and for my kids (when I get to have them)..
I myself am working in my own business and I am happy with it. I have a strong feeling that it will work out just fine! I am glad to hear things are working out for you too. Also, the money I make will be for me, my family and my future. If I had my exBPD with me she would be (in this moment) asking for gifts and stuff ( she did before, and if I bought stuff for myself like shoes, she said I was a selfish son of a bitch LOL)..
As you, I believe that several guys out there are trying to make money out of this problem. Luckily, we have sites like this with people like Paul and Dr. T that share with us important insights and encourage people like you and me to talk about crazy people. The thing is, this issues will never cease to exist. The only thing we are left to do is live with this new-found knowledge and choose our partners correctly, the loving and sane kind..
The_Muppett_ show says
let me see the similarities just for fun!
Mine salivated at my getting a MBA because I would start a job at 45K ( 1996) but I still had two years to go. I thought she was counting her eggs before they hatched. She drank some so never knew whether to believe her or not, was she serious or not, I think that overall it is an evasive maneuver to not be figured out and controlled but to figure and control you with concussion grenades. They are moving targets and it’s difficult to work with that. it’s like they have pixie horses floating up there in their heads telling them that they have to win the war against their husband/BF/enemy. Being successful, for them, is you winning and they don’t like that. They will bring you down a notch or two if you start looking strong, they want you to be successful financially so they can get some( control all really, one way or another) yet they are jealous of you and are trying to one up you. when I worked on my MBA I didn’t do it just for me. I did it for my family, and mainly for my family. So a want to take, but no giving support on her end ( except if drunken rages are considered support by the pixie horses in her head).
You say “Now, I think to myself “hell, if she didn’t even want to be with me when I was in my good moments, what would it be like when I was down and needed her to be there for me?”. ” she wouldn’t as much as possible except some support your way out of necessity for herself. for example after an intense say 2 weeks of whacked behavior and drinking things go to hell. so you fight, the cops show up, you go to jail( on DV, you’re the man, you go) and she’ll realize after the sobering police episode and being by herself with taking care of the kids that she screwed up so she will act like the good loving wife in court etc …the one that doesn’t know what happened. so you lose your job if you haven’t already lost it and then you get a worse job: standard of living goes down, stress goes up and more and more problems come around. You would not be able to run a business properly, mostly a demanding start up. Keeping a job is hard as well just as an employee because the stress keeps you from sleeping right, your work performance goes down ( how was it to study for your MBA?)
Facts are that Crazy who loves you really hates you, her support is a detriment, she wants a strong man but wants to effeminate him.
Those people are in fact all over the place with their wants and needs, which are changing all the time. So in the end you can’t please them and they engage in a last push to jump out of the relationship and find another one. they treat you even worse than before ( narcissist degrading step) and the whole thing has for objective to justify that they are leaving you because you are not worthy. that is the last of the sucking of your self esteem. So yes if you don’t have children with one of these you are blessed. .
Are we are all blessed to have Paul and Dr. T as support and guidance in face of an ignoring society about what these folks do in interpersonal relationship. It really should be a crime to treat people this bad and deviously, but hey, let’s not help too much as it provides works for so many…. As an MBA you’ll understand that it’s just business and everything is monetized. The collateral damages? They can live with that. Who are the psychopaths now?
The more comments I read, the more I believe this girls are programmed the same way (in a way).
You said “Facts are that Crazy who loves you really hates you, her support is a detriment, she wants a strong man but wants to effeminate him.
Those people are in fact all over the place with their wants and needs, which are changing all the time. So in the end you can’t please them and they engage in a last push to jump out of the relationship and find another one. ” This is what exactly happened to me. I consider myself a strong guy, AND my strength comes from my education and values.
It was funny how at the end she told me she needed a “MAN LIKE HER DADDY, A BROKEN MAN, A MAN THAT INSTEAD OF GIVING ADVICE, SOLVED EVERYTHING FOR HER”. Can you see the incoherent way of thinking and bullshit? I mean, a broken man can’t solve anything..and I was her boyfriend, not her daddy.
I also concur this gals are moving targets, and I would also add shape shifters. Why? Because she was overweight for the last months of our relationship, she took little care about her self image when she was with me, but now, she got all slim again and all painted up. She is throwing in the bait for the next sucker. And she will put some weight again as soon as she sticks her claws into him.
I am having some trouble now in spitting out all the venom. I can sleep well but the first thing I think of in the morning is about stuff she said to put me down. However, I am grateful she opened herself in saying all this nasty stuff, if it had not been that way, I’d still be thinking I lost a great woman. She said that she was not willing to support me when I was in trouble, and ended with her daddy’s favorite quote: “grow a pair”. She also stated “You know to many bad things about me, so this is why I still want to be friends..” crazy B..
And yes, my performance in the MBA program fell a bit because I could not sleep. But made it anyway!
As an MBA I know everything is monetized. But sometimes I feel you need some extra help when the problem is real. There are some experts that like to make you feel there is a problem and take advantage of the situation, luckily I’ve known my therapist for years (family friend) and she is a very correct and ethical person.
The_Muppett_ show says
yep I’m not surprised to hear from you that they play by the same playbook. The rules are easy: Lie, steal, cheat. Rinse and repeat.
It makes sense. They all want the same things as you and I want like financial success, emotional happiness, self esteem ( pretty much all of Maslow’s ladder) . The difference between us and them ( doesn’t that sounds oppositional as a trench war?) is that they don’t want to work for it because their all idea is to be a parasite ( flew, tick, vampire maybe?) and take it from you including money, self esteem, confidence etc.. Usually from what I read of most people with this experience is that they treat their mate and family like crap. I can remember how I was treated the worst of all people in her life including strangers at large. I was even name-called occasionally in front of total strangers toward the end of the relationship.
If people’s brains are like computers, crazy’s CPU is sub-par, the Ram is inadequate (but truly random) and the OS is corrupt and overall you can’t expect a normal output from them. You’ve got to upgrade. and they want to degrade you because you know too much. They try to put you down first, if that doesn’t work, they’ll try to be your “friend” to retain some control of you which could help them look better in the eyes of others because if you remain friends it must not have been that bad, right? ( really just hoping your proven loyalty will make you keep your mouth shut). Nasty, nasty people with corrupt brains.
Today is a fresh day and I’d encourage anyone in this predicament to drop the obsession of victimization and to drop the postings and to go out there and have fun, interact with good people or/and do something fun and productive.
Happy week end to everyone and full steam ahead.
Good analogy there! I went today to a lake house my family owns, and the day felt great. I invited some good friends and it was a beautiful day with a cozy afternoon. It helped my head distract form obsessive thoughts, and I am hoping this week will work just fine.
I work in the coffee business, so I’m hitting the mountains on tuesday and probably will take my mountain bike to get a bit muddy for a change.
This whole “I want to be friends” issue is pretty disturbing when they leave you behind with all their garbage. My family told me that I “pulled her out of the garbage” and instead of being thankful, she tried to drag me into it. She managed to do so in a way, but I think I am going to get out of her dumpster soon enough if I commit myself to fight harder.
It is incredible how she treated her family. She badmouthed and criticized everyone. She even tried to put me against my family with nasty little tricks. Unfortunately, I fell in one of her banana peels and got in a fight with my sister sometime ago. Now, I feel embarrassed but managed to work things out with my family. This girls (and by girls I mean three year old girls in a 30 y/o suit) want everything for themselves by any means (even destroying your bond to loved ones).
The_Muppett_ show says
Good to hear you made it a good day.
The crazies are puzzling and addictive. Breaking away from them is definitely the mental part of breaking an addiction ( aside from my ex I have none but I abstractly accept that it is very difficult). but remember that it is half as hard to make the mental effort as putting up with their bullshit and mistreatments. When you lack motivation, remember the worst episodes and how you hated her right there and then and you’ll realized that it’s better if she’s gone because that’s not what you wanted in the first place. And as your life gets better theirs get worse. you become yourself without them and they become themselves without you. I believe the selves that you notice after they phase you out is truly who they are now ( maybe they were better before, truly and sincerely but in my case 20 years of her alcoholism has definitely changed her personality) and probably more than usual because usually they leave you while in love with someone else( they’re rats, they jump ship) and hold you in low esteem ( even though they want to remain friends to silence you) which they talk about and justify in the eyes of the other man( who’s a weak man ): everything went wrong because of you, you, you so they try to absolve themselves of guilt because leaving you was justified and they left you for him etc…. Does that make sense in face of the reality and the facts? no, and that’s why we call them Crazy they defy logic and rationality. If you today were to meet these people would you fall in love with them? Hell no, not knowing what you know now. It took charm, trickery, and a persona to get you, and evil, craziness, and hatred to keep you. What I see now is what she is. I’m accepting that even though I have to destroy the crystalized feelings I still hold. It is weird to me. I feel as enthusiastic about life now as I felt before I met her. My outlook is positively growing. Yep, two can sail the oceans. Her world is caving in because it wasn’t solid, it was an illusion that she made in her mind and oh big surprise the cracks are forming on the foundation. This building of imagination is to be condemned soon.
The reality of the reality is an awakening. Like the Blacks would say: “Sh*t’s getting real” and they get theirs. There is natural justice to life, sooner or later.
Rest well and get yourself ready to be happy with a person that will give you as much as she gets. Take care of yourself and do work hard, eat well and sleep well and exercise even if only walking, put the radio on during empty time and you will be following your recovery. just keep pushing every day, a little more if you can. Soon she will be a ghost of the past and God will send you a mate ( might not be the first one you see, tread lightly). Nature gave us the gift of healing so take full advantage of it trusting that you will eventually feel better and stronger.
Thanks for those last words. I truly believe God has a good mate for me somewhere for me to find. The sad part is how life catches up on people and the “reap what you sow” quote comes to life. I’ve never wished wrong or pain for people that hurt me in the past, unfortunately you can’t “save” them to keep them away from sad endings or experiences.
We, the “non-bpd/hpd/npd/crazy” deserve better. The thing we need to do is fight for our souls and emotions not to get fucked up so we can give our best to those that deserve it.