Second Wives Sound Off, Part 1: What Makes You the Most Angry about Divorce Law and Family Court?
In many cases, “In the best interests of the child” is a laughable phrase that roughly translates into, “In the best interests of the mother at the expense of the child and the father.” Many Shrink4Men community members, both men and women, have suffered horrific and financially crippling experiences at the hands of former high-conflict and/or abusive personality-disordered spouses and partners who take advantage of a Family Law Industry that’s clearly biased towards women or, rather, women who had access to a man’s sperm first. Family Court doesn’t seem to give a fig about the best interests of children from second families, or children from first families for that matter given the frightening number of women who clearly aren’t better parents, but receive primary custody by virtue of their reproductive organs.
Divorced men/fathers are often accused of being bitter when they complain about unfair custody rulings and spousal and child support laws. Many of these men have good reason and a right to be bitter. The way many men are treated in divorce court is unconstitutional. However, men aren’t the only ones affected by the “discretion” of Family Court judges and evaluators. Women and children suffer, too.
I’m part of a private online women’s group who support each other through the headaches, hassles, stalking, harassment and host of other abusive behaviors and injustices perpetrated by their husbands’ ex-wives and/or exes with whom they share children. Over the next few weeks, with their permission, I’ll be publishing their frustration with Family Law and the ongoing nonsense they put up with year in and year out.
A few weeks ago, I posed the following question to these ladies:
If women’s groups and feminist organizations are serious about promoting equality between the sexes, then Domestic Violence laws such as VAWA and divorce/custody laws need to undergo serious reform. Currently, domestic violence and family law are, more often than not, nothing more than kangaroo courts, which are heavily biased toward women/mothers and against men/fathers.
Divorce and custody law reform and domestic violence law reform aren’t just men’s issues. Our broken system affects us all. As second wives, caregivers of children from previous relationships and parents of your own children, you’re able to see how biased and unfair the laws are very clearly because you and your loved ones have been harmed and continue to be harmed by our broken system, which is easily manipulated by abusive, high-conflict personalities.
For example, the present family court system doesn’t seem to have any regard if you and your family have enough to live on—the first wife and children come first. Child support ends at 18 when a child legally becomes an adult. Meanwhile, grown women who are capable of supporting themselves, but refuse to do so, can often collect spousal support indefinitely. Many of you contribute your own earnings to support another woman and her offspring, without thanks—in fact, you’re treated like garbage—while they don’t lift a finger to support themselves.
If your husband misses a child support payment, his wages can be garnished and/or he can be hauled off to jail. Many of you live with the fear of false allegations from the ex-spouses and PAS’d step-children. Many of you experience severe financial hardship, because your husbands’ high-conflict ex-wives repeatedly drag your husbands into court to feel “in control” and other pathological BS. This burns up your savings; money that could be going to the children we’re all so supposedly concerned about and why? Because these women enjoy the attention and conflict and want to hurt and punish their exes. Currently, family court allows women to abuse the system this way.
What types of these injustices make you the most angry? What laws and practices make you angry enough that you’d get out there and work toward change? What about our current system and the way it treats men and fathers makes you fearful for your sons when they’re ready to begin having romantic relationships?
Here are some of the responses:
Lady A: The system still assumes that the mother is the best parent for the children to be with.
Unfair/unjust divorce decrees are created and men are told, “You’re getting off easy. . .” when they aren’t at all.
The system perpetuates bad behavior on the part of ex-wives since the scales are tipped in their favor from the get-go. Women know this and use it.
My old elementary school friend who had contacted me on Facebook told me that his wife never worked, but was offered a position regularly at her mother’s company—a position she refused. When they divorced (his wife’s idea), she still refused to go to work although the offer was still there. Instead, he was forced to sell two commercial properties (rentals) and two residential properties (rentals) so that she could purchase a $700+k home. PLUS he pays alimony AND child support, although he has the kids 14 days a month. He’s like, “Wha?!” I believe he said the divorce itself cost him around $200k—and that was spent just not to get TOTALLY screwed by a woman who felt ENTITLED.
By the way, his ex-wife told him that she and her attorneys were “soul mates.” I bet they are!
And another:
Lady B: What makes me the most angry, as a step mom and a bio mom, is the idea that every time a man gets a raise or a bonus, his ex-wife gets a cut of it. I’m angry that child support is nearly impossible to adjust to a lower amount when a man loses his job, takes a pay cut or the economy tanks.
When I was awarded child support for my kids, my attorneys assured me, “It can only go up, almost never down.” Even when I had no step-mom experience, I thought, “That’s crap.” When my exes have fallen on hard times, I can’t imagine going after them for child support when they don’t know how they’re going to pay rent and feed the kids who live in their home. Just because we had babies together, I have no right to ask or expect this; just as an intact two-parent family would have to adjust to economic changes, my children and I need to adjust as well.
Diandra Douglas: Greed is good.
Look at the Michael Douglas case, his ex wife went after his earnings from Wall Street 2. The guy has a wife, kids, is battling cancer and this is a good what- 10-15 years after his effing divorce and she still demands her “share.” Do they even have any kids together that are still minors? At what point does a woman need to take care of her own effing bills?
It isn’t fair that ex-wives collect when the father makes more money, but the rate doesn’t change if he is making less. I say this as a bio-mom and a child support collector.
I also hate the notion that every disagreement needs to go to mediation, so anytime a father says “no” or expects the court order to be followed, the mother has a right to force him to mediate. All she has to do is file any sort of papers he can’t agree to.
I hate that the courts do not understand that in some cases, co-parenting will not work and they need to have a plan B in place. Currently, if you can’t co-parent, the courts say shame on you, try harder and demand that two people who couldn’t work it out when they were married somehow become a better problem-solving team now that they’re divorced.
I hate that there are not legally defined definitions of harassment from a former spouse. As long as they preface anything with “this is for Timmy. . .” one side can repeatedly stalk, harass and assault the other, because it’s for the children in her mind.
And another:
Lady C: The way in which child support is calculated is troubling to me. Child support guidelines in many states were formulated back in the “day” when divorce was just starting to become prevalent and when many mothers were stay-at-home mothers. Child support calculations weren’t based on how much it takes to support a child adequately. It was based on the idea that a CHILD’S LIFESTYLE (AND MOMMIE’S, TOO) SHOULD NOT BE ALTERED by a divorce. Really? Says who?
So, a disproportionate amount of a man’s income is ordered as child support, so that the “first” family, now no longer a family, can maintain a lifestyle as if they are still a family. I find this very perplexing.
It’s also troubling that, in many states, the custodial parent’s income (usually the mother’s) is not weighted the same in the calculation formula. Our attorney put it to us this way—ex-wife’s income can swing wildly up and down and have little impact on the amount of child support paid by my husband. My husband’s ex-wife earned over 150K/year for awhile, but apparently this didn’t affect her needing $800/month of tax free child support from my husband for ONE child.
My final complaint, well, that I’m writing about, that is, is the lack of education and knowledge on these matters in the “system.” Family court judges should be required to read and take classes on high-conflict disputes, Parental Alienation Syndrome, and personality disorders.
Next week, I’ll post some more responses to the question, “What makes you angry about divorce and custody laws?” Meanwhile, what do other Shrink4Men community members find most upsetting? Please join the chorus.
Dr Tara J. Palmatier provides confidential, fee-for-service, consultation/coaching services to help both men and women work through their relationship issues via telephone and/or Skype chat. Her practice combines practical advice, support, reality testing and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Shrink4Men Services page for professional inquiries.
I am a custodial mom of 3. Eight years ago, my ex quit his job and fled the state and not only hasn’t seen the kids since 2004, he hasn’t sent me a dime for their support since 2002. And sure, there are laws, but try to get them enforced. He made A LOT of money but from what I hear, continues to work for cash under the table so I never get any. He owes me over $150K. Now you tell me how that is fair?
On the flip side, I am also a stepmom to a man who pays $1200 a month to his ex for 2 children. And since she lives in IN, where child support ends at 21, we continue to pay that amount, even though the kids are away at college and only go home 2 weeks a year–other holidays off they are with us. Plus we pay 75% of college!
It’s not fair in either direction, but your experience doesn’t negate the unfair experiences many men who want to be fathers go through. Seems like your ex isn’t interested in being a parent, which is sad for his children. On the other hand, I know a lot of men who are forced to pay an exorbitant amount of CS and still don’t get to see the kids. It would seem that the formulae used to calculate support isn’t fair nor is the mandate to support children and exes “in the style to which they were accustomed” when the family is intact. The math just doesn’t work and it’s an unreasonable expectation.
Cousin Davesays
Our current divorce and child support system tends to reward the irresponsible party, whichever one it is. As CarolAnne has found out, men who are bound and determined to be scofflaws can evade the system. It’s the men who try to live up to their responsibilities who get drawn and quartered.
typhonbluesays
Sounds like you’d be better off if you didn’t have to deal with CS at all.
chestersays
Here’s a solution to. You have the kids at your home, YOU pay for them! When they are in his home, HE pays for them. Before you EVER go down the road of reproducing, make sure you have adequate skills to stand on your OWN two feet and make a living! Problem solved.
nlgal41says
I *love* this. As a woman who has raised my child alone since he was 3 weeks old without ANY support from his father, financially,emotionally or otherwise, it is really hard to respect a “lady” who, after separating and divorcing a man, still wants to stab him any way possible. It really is time for these narcissistic creatures to put down the magnifying glass and pick up the mirror. To you ex wives out there who wish to continue to manipulate and threaten, and jump and down with clenched fists like a spoiled brat, I would like to say “Get a life, cuz your husband is gone, and he is on his way to getting one, filled with love, respect, and lots of adventure”….oh, and look up Karma, cuz one day it’s coming to find you!!!
$150 grand since 2004? That’s – like – wow! That’s $2000 a month in child support. I know whole families that don’t live on that. That’s what my husband pays to his ex and I think it’s a ridiculous amount – I don’t care how much money he makes.
I was awarded child support in my divorce several years ago. I knew my ex couldn’t afford to pay it. I told him not to ever worry about paying it. I just wanted him involved with the kids. I told him that child support wasn’t important. He took care of the kids when they were with him and I took care of them when they were with me. In my opinion, that’s the way it should be. I also believe that, unless abuse is a factor, then 50/50 custody should be presumed. Then, if the mother is abusive, dad should have primary custody and vice versa. Child support should then be reserved for those parents that were abusive and, thus, lost custody of their children and should still be responsible to help with their care.
This business of showing preferential treatment to women in the courts, in my opinion, is why so many men flee the scene. They love their children, but they can’t stand up to the constant financial pressure of having to totally support two completely separate households. What is he supposed to live off? To top it off, their high-conflict exes that are living off their child support have the gall to berate the dads to the kids and alienate them. The kids start to hate them. Their exes are constantly stalking them, interfering with their lives, lying about them, financially draining them and doing everything in their power to hurt them. No wonder they take off! When I finally met my father as an adult, he told me that was the reason he left. He couldn’t afford the child support, he was constantly being nagged and drug through court over it – despite the fact it would virtually put his new family on the street. The only way he could avoid going to jail for paying his rent rather than child support was to disappear – and he did. In the long run, it’s the children that are hurt.
I don’t advocate ANY parent running out on their children. Children NEED both parents – especially in the face of divorce. I am just saying that I understand from personal experience how it can happen. I understand how those demands for child support can deprive a child of a parent.
By the way, this isn’t a one-sided thing either. It’s a misconception that it’s dads who desert their families. I know of more than one woman who has done it – but the interesting thing is, most of them don’t have to endure the pressure that the male counterparts do. They aren’t usually being hounded for child support – they just decide they don’t want families and disappear. Worse, I know one man who has sole custody – the mother has supervised visitation – and he pays HER child support.
The men burdened by the sad inequalities inherit in the divorce courts are who this forum is for. I come here (as does my husband) to find information and resources to help support us when things are really bad dealing with his ex. I don’t come here and gripe about what MY ex has done to me. There are plenty of forums for women for that. This is one of the few safe harbors for men.
gallopingangelssays
I’ve been told that child support, in community property states, is actually based on the combined income of a couple upon re-marriage. I was also told, that if that “2nd couple” gets a divorce… BOTH are still obligated to pay child support. Does anyone know if this is true? I’m in a relationship with a man who is divorcing a women with NPCD. She has already made our lives a living hell… so I’m terrified of ever legally marrying him. What is unfortunate is that I could add their children to my medical plan, at NO cost, if we did get married — but the prospect of ME having to pay any portion of HER child support is to frightenting to consider! We live in the state of Washington — does anyone have any idea how I go about finding out how much of this is true? I’d hate to tell an awesome man NO because I was improperly informed!!
I’d check with an attorney in your area about this. I know how you feel. I wouldn’t want to have to subsidize some other woman’s choice not to work because of her entitlement/golden uterus issues. Even unemployment and welfare benefits have time limits and requirements that you participate in job training.
davidsays
“her entitlement/golden uterus”…..classic
Ron On Drumssays
While things have changed a little for the better they still have a LONG way to go. So much just depends on the judge you get. Some try to do right, some may try but have no education as to what actually IS in the best interest of the child. Then you have some that just plain don’t care. They just want to clear their docket. A friend I attend church with is a family court specialist. He actually tries to do what is in the best interest of the child. He runs into two major obsticals
1) Women & ocassionally men too who just want to make the stbx PAY. They don’t care about what is best for the child. Sometimes they don’t even care about what is best for step children that THEY may have even helped raise. They just want to make the ex pay!
2) Judges who either don’t care, judges who always side with the woman no matter what & here unfortunatly are sometimes corrupt. Hey it is Louisiana after all. He & I were talking one day discussing things I read here about high conflict women & divorce. So this subject of alimony, child support etc in family law when dealing with these types. Some of the situations are really sad. He has even lost clients because he refused to do what they wanted when it was a bad move for the kids. He is a Christian who walks the walk which means he can’t do anything to harm a child. But at least he can sleep at night knowing he did the right thing.
I do know of a case that went against a woman (my wife) which could well happen to a man when dealing with a BAD judge. She is from Chicago where corruption is just about as bad as it is here. During her divorce with a HCP, BPD male all the court advocates not only said she should get custody but he should only have supervised visits. She had no problem with the supervision being his mom or family. He was a violent man who was an abuser. She just wanted the children safe but wanted them to have a relationship with their dad.
Well despite 3 court appointed reports saying this man was violent & should not have custody the judge gave him custody. As a result we have had numerous problems with my steps when they were teens. As a mater of fact when my step daughter asked him to please not keep her awake at night having sex with the various women he brought home his answer was “Well why don’t you go stay stay your boyfriends house”. She was 15 at the time!
Now a couple of years latter with the SAME JUDGE his brother was getting divorced. He failed THREE court ordered drug test. He had been convicted of spousal abuse. Convicted of assault on her during the seperation. The court reports all said what a wonderful mother his wife was & once again said DO NOT give him custody. Well the SAME JUDGE did it again. Gave him custody.
Just a couple of years ago we found out why. This judge is now under indcitment (or was a couple of years ago)for accepting bribes in child custody cases to favor whoever paid him. A couple of lawyers were in trouble in this same case. One was my wifes Ex & her former brother in laws lawyer in his divorce. These lawyers KNEW which judge to go to. How many children had their lives screwed up because of him?
So I think in MOST custody cases, especially those involving high conflict personalities go bad because of BAD judges. Maybe not corrupt but they aren’t bound by law to follow advocates advice. They can ignore reports that state how bad a parent one would be & just rule as they feel. Most of those rulings favor Mom. Sadly many time HCP & BPD Mom
Cousin Davesays
Ron, I don’t know how true this is, but I’ve seen several claims that family law is largely populated with lawyers and judges from the bottom 20% of their law school classes. The claim is that they go into family law because standards are so mushy, and that makes it easy work for people who couldn’t cut it in more demanding areas of the profession.
knotheaduscsays
My husband has faithfully paid child support for his two daughters AND his former stepson whom he never adopted– $850 for each kid for a total of $2550 a month. He was supposed to keep paying until each kid turned 22, got married, died, or became “self-sufficient”. Meanwhile, none of the kids speak to him. He hasn’t seen or talked to his daughters since Christmas 2004. In 2006, at ages 15 and 12, they actually sent letters to him, demanding that he let their mother’s current victim adopt them. In their letters, they addressed him by his first name and claimed that victim #3 (with whom ex has two more kids) is their “everyday daddy”. Crazy ex wife alienated her son from his bio-dad, yet got them back together when the boy was an adult and it suited her purposes.
I later found an Internet United Way PR article written about ex that basically claimed that my husband had left her penniless after their divorce… Never mind that he was paying her alimony, child support, and the house note on their marital home, which she got in the divorce. The house later went into foreclosure when he couldn’t maintain the payments any longer. When I met my husband, he was living on $600 a month.
My husband was a good dad to his kids and he loves them very much. I have watched the pain he’s gone through in the aftermath of divorcing their mother. Yet even with all that pain and estrangement, he’s assured me that it was worth it. He faced the difficult choice of leaving his ex and losing his kids, or going insane from all the craziness in their household.
I never intended to become an “evil stepmom”, but it infuriates me to see a good man like my husband get abused. Thankfully, the ex seems to have an aversion to going to court.
Reading stories like yours, knotheadusc, makes me so very angry. It’s unconscionable what some women and men do and worse yet that so many of them seem to get away with it. I hope when the wheel of karma comes back around it comes back hard on them.
knotheaduscsays
Oddly enough, there are times when I think I’m driving the “karma bus”… She pretty much leaves us alone now. My husband’s daughters are 19 and 17 and ex promised that they would be getting adopted when they came of age. Frankly, if they’re anything like their mother, I kind of hope they do get adopted. I’d rather not have them try to re-engage later when they realize my husband might be ripe for more exploitation… We’ve already been down that road with former stepson. I can just see future grandchildren being used as bargaining chips. But I know my husband would like to make peace with them, so I’ve told him that if they come around, I’m booking a stay at a spa. 😉
TheGirlInsidesays
May you be comforted knowing it doesn’t just come back around, but it comes back around many times over (life likes to keep teaching us the same ‘lesson’ until we finally learn it).
What we put out there in the universe, I believe, will come back to us multiplied…it’s just too bad we can’t always get front row seats when justice is finally applied.
Lucky you that the ex has an aversion to court. I was ready to celebrate this past December when the only legal expenses we had were paid to a Parenting Time Expediter.
knotheaduscsays
Don’t think I don’t realize how lucky we are! She has never engaged my husband in court… not even when they got divorced. She drew up the papers herself and he signed them because they were both broke. I think she doesn’t want to go to court because she’s paranoid and afraid that too much of her crap would come out and become public record. It’s a lot easier for her to spin her BS to the people gullible enough to believe her and isolate anyone who questions her or challenges her versions of events. Besides, my husband is extremely credible and very nice. People tend to prefer him over her.
I have never met her in person, even though she tried to coerce me into spending Christmas with her back in 2004. I have read her emails, though, and talked to people who have known her since she was a teenager. She’s certifiable. One thing that worked in our favor is that she’s under the impression that I’m a b*tch, rather than just assertive. She doesn’t know me well enough to know my weaknesses and she’s a coward, so she gives us a wide berth.
TheGirlInsidesays
I’m not in the situation, but I do know a story of a young man who paid $thousands to get to visit his own son, and now the &*($ is living in his house, still collects $900 a month from him, and tells him he can call to get the court to keep him from having to pay. You’d think SOMEONE would get some brains…she’s living in HIS HOUSE. They are TOGETHER. Yet, she’s scamming him for all that money.
Oh, the best part, child #2 is already on it’s way. Marriage? Vasectomy?
The thing that really sucks…he grew up watching his mother treat his father the exact same way…so he doesn’t even probably know that there is another way to live.
Men: I cannot emphasize this enough. I mean none of you any insult, but for God Sakes, please do not let your d*&! make your decisions for you…b/c this is the end result. (i.e. easy sex = emotionally Frigged up psycho who will make you pay for one or two nights of quick scr**ing for the rest of your life).
Cousin Davesays
“The thing that really sucks…he grew up watching his mother treat his father the exact same way…so he doesn’t even probably know that there is another way to live. ”
That’s absolutely true… men who grew up with NPD/BPD mothers have very low expectations of women because they think that’s the way all women are. Took me a while myself to realize that isn’t true, and my own case was pretty mild compared to some that I know about. (Which I think largely explains your last paragraph… if you’re a boy growing up and you believe that that’s your future regardless, then you may as well have a little fun while you’re at it.)
TheGirlInsidesays
PS – even sadder, he’s already admitted that the only reason he’s staying with “her” (I find even naming her the same sex as me insulting somehow) is so that he can see his child anytime, without any problems (read: years of court, thousands of dollars down the toilet and emotional suffering). Damn sad.
chris117says
TheGirlInside,
I know exactely what you are talking about, I have a friend in the same type of situation. He doesn’t want to leave because of the fear that “it” would get more custody than “it” deserves. The problem is that “it” claims to be so physically sick “it” can’t care for “itsself”, let alone a 7 y/o. But yet “it’s” very capable of dishing out verbal and emotional abuse. Add in that “it’s” whole side of the family is personality disordered and you got the ultimate in living hell. The boy has been verbally abused, emotionally abused, guilt tripped, neglected, and most recently physically abused with a yard sick (not confirmed no evidence only the boy’s report) by many members of “it’s” side of the family. Even given all these probelems plus many more the father believes it’s better to stay because then he’s always there, except work, and can better protect the boy.
I too cannot call “it” a “she”,”it’s” not a mother never has been, only an egg donor. The only good news is that complications during birth caused “it” to be completely unable to have more kids.
Reading this makes me glad that my SO is in a system which has made some really clear efforts to move towards there been absolute transparence in what the minimum level of child support is and it can be calculated BEFORE a separation.
I can remember the SO being very suspicious as he looked at the number that the tax office provided him with, and he was only reassured when my accountant friend said it was acurate.
In addition, he can now put a claim back against her because her financial circumstances have changed since separation, and the tax office does the same calculation against her earnings.
Matrimonial property is split 50:50 and as soon as possible on separation.
Now the bad stuff: Eldest is the scapegoat and is desparate to go to an 80:20 or 90:10 custodial situation with her father, and everyone is acting like a 14 year old is an unrelible witness of her mother’s actions and behaviour. SO is a strict parent. His daughter is expected to do more and gets less freedom with him – but she knows when he says something it will be followed through on – that his word is his promise. The burden of proof is completely screwed up here.
I am trying to avoid being hopeful but just recently STBX has shown her true behaviour in front of church elders and in front of some neighbours and friends of the SO, so just perhaps they will speak out and the family courts will listen to their affidavits
Dr. T – I know that you said that group of second wives is private. Is it invite only? My husband and I deal with this stuff all the time – being drug through court, unfairly high child support ($1500 a month for 2 kids he has 40% of the time), having to have a PTE, constant harassment and false allegations. How does someone join or is it not open to more members?
AmFreeAtLast2010says
Great Subject Dr. T. Also, thanks for sharing SunshineFlGirl,
… I divorced my wife of 18 years (suspected NPD/BPD+ will not seek treatment) after consulting three professionals (including Dr. T) and have two wonderful children.
Here in West Michigan (Ottawa County) being male, never any abuse, got handed about a $1500 child support and another $900 spousal support (5 years) and did not even get any physical custody. Just 35% parenting time. After a year the Ex. still does not work full-time (part-time at minimum wage) she has a 4-year college degree, makes new demands, demand money from her parents and well…… displays all the typical traits so eloquently communicated by Dr. T.
As for my terms of the divorce I initiated, I was told to take the deal from my attorney (very good and reputable), because if we claimed mental illness, I would have been “on-the-hook” for her financially for the rest of her life or mine! In Michigan, the laws are so bent against fathers, I was told that I would or will have to claim and prove she is beating them to death to get custody of them.
I know our States and Nations tax and healthcare structure needs an enhancement, but I can tell you as a father who has faithfully provided for his family for almost 20 years (no should would not work while we had kids in school), that Michigan and The U.S. needs a complete Family Court Overhaul!
My suggestion? 50/50 everything unless there is actual abuse (physical and add emotional/mental abuse too).
Not to be considered a
SineNominesays
Looks like this online group would be a fascinating read. Based on the excerpts provided, these women sound like mature, reasonable, sensible people. That kind of forum would be of great value outside of itself, since it shows that women as well as men see the injustice and unfairness of the current divorce system in the U.S. I wonder if there is a way to further publicize these points of view (aside from this website, of course) without compromising the participants’ confidentiality or otherwise undermining the effectiveness and purpose of that group.
marigold1says
Thank you Dr. T for this post.
I totally feel the pain of having a partner with a BPD ex-wife. We do everything we can to minimize the terror campaign that she seems to never tire of.
We have assumed over 100K of debt from her ‘lifestyle’. This debt excludes the legal fees that we continue accrue.
She uses their children shamelessly. Each week we get the children back in our care, we wonder what deprogramming we’ll have to face. Some of the things she tells them are outrageous. And they are so young & impressionable that they believe her.
The exwife has been told by children’s therapist, family therapist, lawyers (of which she has had many), social workers and friends to stop including the children. She refuses. It sickens me.
The only hope I have is that as they grow up they realize that their biggest predator is their mother. Sad as this is it will only be self-preservation on their part.
What confuses me most, however, is how can she maintain this obsession with my partner? It’s been years since they divorced. He’s moved on. She’s moved on. Why is she so obsessed?
TheGirlInsidesays
Marigold:
The only response I have to to say that you are showing those children the difference between a toxic person / relationship (assuming your Hs AXW is getting into relationships) and a healthy, loving one.
As long as you are consistent and, uh, tireless, in your truth telling, staying above the fray, and continuing to show them that discipline = love, whereas lack of discipline = apathy, they will learn the difference over time.
My AXH doesn’t even encourage my little girl to take care of common hygiene when she’s with him (like brushing her hair and teeth, or washing her hands after using the toilet – non-negotiables in most households!)…so she fights me on it every day, especially after weekends with him. I just keep telling her that I’m doing this because I care about her health.
Showing children a healthy, loving, giving and compassionate relationship is, IMO is one of the most valuable things we can do for them.
dbsays
Simple…it is their lifeblood. They are similar to leeches and get all forms of energy and protein from feasting as often as possible on former victim(s).
Been over a year for me since divorced and little has slowed down despite visits from police and children’s aid for her to knock things off. I’m getting depressed because see no end in sight, especially after what I have learned here and from other therapists….
Causing havoc in my life and often using the children as pawns to do it gives her the energy she needs to survive above all else…
dbsays
Simple…it is their lifeblood. They are similar to leeches and get all forms of energy and protein from feasting as often as possible on former victim(s).
Been over a year for me since divorced and little has slowed down despite visits from police and children’s aid for her to knock things off. I’m getting depressed because see no end in sight, especially after what I have learned here and from other therapists….
Causing havoc in my life and often using the children as pawns to do it gives her the energy she needs to survive above all else…
Gail Hsays
I am fortunate that my fiance’s youngest just turned 18 and graduated early, so the money part is behind us. But what I found most frustrating is that you almost have to go full scale war and take a second out on the house for every little thing if you need to go to court.
Example, the PCB (pscyho crazy bitch)in one of her losing control outbursts, made her 17 yo the target, since she couldnt get to my fiance. This poor kid was just torned apart and made the decision he wanted to live with Dad. Not being legal experts we tried to navigate the courts and file paperwork pro se, thinking that the age of the child, would factor heavily in the decision and it would be a done deal. Not so, she hired an attorney and $5,000 and one month later the child was told they had to continue the 50/50 shared custody, after all it was only just six months. Fiance was warned/threatened by her attorney that he would asked for continuance of the case so that it would go past the 18th birthday and rack up the attorney fees, that he would petition the court for him to pay. How is that right and just?
So here we are fortunate that now the child has graduated and is 18, so no more child support. But with the loss of that control, choke chain, has PCB acting out in other ways, stalking and terrorizing me. I just dont get how these people function and keep jobs.
It is written by author Lenore Skenazy, and looks at how kids these days are over-protected from all kinds of ills that adults imagine could befall them while they go about their everyday activities. I thought this was relevent as it touches on the subject of how ridiculous it is that men are often seen to be predators who can’t be trusted to have close contact with children, or even to look after their own children properly. It reminded me a lot of Shrink4men as perhaps it could be said to be another part of a growing social movement seeking to “reclaim the night” from those who want to try to project their fears and prejudices onto us regular, thoughtful, considerate folks.
In many cases, “In the best interests of the child” is a laughable phrase that roughly translates into, “In the best interests of the mother at the expense of the child and the father.” Many Shrink4Men community members, both men and women, have suffered horrific and financially crippling experiences at the hands of former high-conflict and/or abusive personality-disordered spouses and partners who take advantage of a Family Law Industry that’s clearly biased towards women or, rather, women who had access to a man’s sperm first. Family Court doesn’t seem to give a fig about the best interests of children from second families, or children from first families for that matter given the frightening number of women who clearly aren’t better parents, but receive primary custody by virtue of their reproductive organs.
For example, the present family court system doesn’t seem to have any regard if you and your family have enough to live on—the first wife and children come first. Child support ends at 18 when a child legally becomes an adult. Meanwhile, grown women who are capable of supporting themselves, but refuse to do so, can often collect spousal support indefinitely. Many of you contribute your own earnings to support another woman and her offspring, without thanks—in fact, you’re treated like garbage—while they don’t lift a finger to support themselves.
Want to Say Goodbye to Crazy? Buy it HERE.
I am a custodial mom of 3. Eight years ago, my ex quit his job and fled the state and not only hasn’t seen the kids since 2004, he hasn’t sent me a dime for their support since 2002. And sure, there are laws, but try to get them enforced. He made A LOT of money but from what I hear, continues to work for cash under the table so I never get any. He owes me over $150K. Now you tell me how that is fair?
On the flip side, I am also a stepmom to a man who pays $1200 a month to his ex for 2 children. And since she lives in IN, where child support ends at 21, we continue to pay that amount, even though the kids are away at college and only go home 2 weeks a year–other holidays off they are with us. Plus we pay 75% of college!
It’s not fair in either direction, but your experience doesn’t negate the unfair experiences many men who want to be fathers go through. Seems like your ex isn’t interested in being a parent, which is sad for his children. On the other hand, I know a lot of men who are forced to pay an exorbitant amount of CS and still don’t get to see the kids. It would seem that the formulae used to calculate support isn’t fair nor is the mandate to support children and exes “in the style to which they were accustomed” when the family is intact. The math just doesn’t work and it’s an unreasonable expectation.
Our current divorce and child support system tends to reward the irresponsible party, whichever one it is. As CarolAnne has found out, men who are bound and determined to be scofflaws can evade the system. It’s the men who try to live up to their responsibilities who get drawn and quartered.
Sounds like you’d be better off if you didn’t have to deal with CS at all.
Here’s a solution to. You have the kids at your home, YOU pay for them! When they are in his home, HE pays for them. Before you EVER go down the road of reproducing, make sure you have adequate skills to stand on your OWN two feet and make a living! Problem solved.
I *love* this. As a woman who has raised my child alone since he was 3 weeks old without ANY support from his father, financially,emotionally or otherwise, it is really hard to respect a “lady” who, after separating and divorcing a man, still wants to stab him any way possible. It really is time for these narcissistic creatures to put down the magnifying glass and pick up the mirror. To you ex wives out there who wish to continue to manipulate and threaten, and jump and down with clenched fists like a spoiled brat, I would like to say “Get a life, cuz your husband is gone, and he is on his way to getting one, filled with love, respect, and lots of adventure”….oh, and look up Karma, cuz one day it’s coming to find you!!!
$150 grand since 2004? That’s – like – wow! That’s $2000 a month in child support. I know whole families that don’t live on that. That’s what my husband pays to his ex and I think it’s a ridiculous amount – I don’t care how much money he makes.
I was awarded child support in my divorce several years ago. I knew my ex couldn’t afford to pay it. I told him not to ever worry about paying it. I just wanted him involved with the kids. I told him that child support wasn’t important. He took care of the kids when they were with him and I took care of them when they were with me. In my opinion, that’s the way it should be. I also believe that, unless abuse is a factor, then 50/50 custody should be presumed. Then, if the mother is abusive, dad should have primary custody and vice versa. Child support should then be reserved for those parents that were abusive and, thus, lost custody of their children and should still be responsible to help with their care.
This business of showing preferential treatment to women in the courts, in my opinion, is why so many men flee the scene. They love their children, but they can’t stand up to the constant financial pressure of having to totally support two completely separate households. What is he supposed to live off? To top it off, their high-conflict exes that are living off their child support have the gall to berate the dads to the kids and alienate them. The kids start to hate them. Their exes are constantly stalking them, interfering with their lives, lying about them, financially draining them and doing everything in their power to hurt them. No wonder they take off! When I finally met my father as an adult, he told me that was the reason he left. He couldn’t afford the child support, he was constantly being nagged and drug through court over it – despite the fact it would virtually put his new family on the street. The only way he could avoid going to jail for paying his rent rather than child support was to disappear – and he did. In the long run, it’s the children that are hurt.
I don’t advocate ANY parent running out on their children. Children NEED both parents – especially in the face of divorce. I am just saying that I understand from personal experience how it can happen. I understand how those demands for child support can deprive a child of a parent.
By the way, this isn’t a one-sided thing either. It’s a misconception that it’s dads who desert their families. I know of more than one woman who has done it – but the interesting thing is, most of them don’t have to endure the pressure that the male counterparts do. They aren’t usually being hounded for child support – they just decide they don’t want families and disappear. Worse, I know one man who has sole custody – the mother has supervised visitation – and he pays HER child support.
The men burdened by the sad inequalities inherit in the divorce courts are who this forum is for. I come here (as does my husband) to find information and resources to help support us when things are really bad dealing with his ex. I don’t come here and gripe about what MY ex has done to me. There are plenty of forums for women for that. This is one of the few safe harbors for men.
I’ve been told that child support, in community property states, is actually based on the combined income of a couple upon re-marriage. I was also told, that if that “2nd couple” gets a divorce… BOTH are still obligated to pay child support. Does anyone know if this is true? I’m in a relationship with a man who is divorcing a women with NPCD. She has already made our lives a living hell… so I’m terrified of ever legally marrying him. What is unfortunate is that I could add their children to my medical plan, at NO cost, if we did get married — but the prospect of ME having to pay any portion of HER child support is to frightenting to consider! We live in the state of Washington — does anyone have any idea how I go about finding out how much of this is true? I’d hate to tell an awesome man NO because I was improperly informed!!
I’d check with an attorney in your area about this. I know how you feel. I wouldn’t want to have to subsidize some other woman’s choice not to work because of her entitlement/golden uterus issues. Even unemployment and welfare benefits have time limits and requirements that you participate in job training.
“her entitlement/golden uterus”…..classic
While things have changed a little for the better they still have a LONG way to go. So much just depends on the judge you get. Some try to do right, some may try but have no education as to what actually IS in the best interest of the child. Then you have some that just plain don’t care. They just want to clear their docket. A friend I attend church with is a family court specialist. He actually tries to do what is in the best interest of the child. He runs into two major obsticals
1) Women & ocassionally men too who just want to make the stbx PAY. They don’t care about what is best for the child. Sometimes they don’t even care about what is best for step children that THEY may have even helped raise. They just want to make the ex pay!
2) Judges who either don’t care, judges who always side with the woman no matter what & here unfortunatly are sometimes corrupt. Hey it is Louisiana after all. He & I were talking one day discussing things I read here about high conflict women & divorce. So this subject of alimony, child support etc in family law when dealing with these types. Some of the situations are really sad. He has even lost clients because he refused to do what they wanted when it was a bad move for the kids. He is a Christian who walks the walk which means he can’t do anything to harm a child. But at least he can sleep at night knowing he did the right thing.
I do know of a case that went against a woman (my wife) which could well happen to a man when dealing with a BAD judge. She is from Chicago where corruption is just about as bad as it is here. During her divorce with a HCP, BPD male all the court advocates not only said she should get custody but he should only have supervised visits. She had no problem with the supervision being his mom or family. He was a violent man who was an abuser. She just wanted the children safe but wanted them to have a relationship with their dad.
Well despite 3 court appointed reports saying this man was violent & should not have custody the judge gave him custody. As a result we have had numerous problems with my steps when they were teens. As a mater of fact when my step daughter asked him to please not keep her awake at night having sex with the various women he brought home his answer was “Well why don’t you go stay stay your boyfriends house”. She was 15 at the time!
Now a couple of years latter with the SAME JUDGE his brother was getting divorced. He failed THREE court ordered drug test. He had been convicted of spousal abuse. Convicted of assault on her during the seperation. The court reports all said what a wonderful mother his wife was & once again said DO NOT give him custody. Well the SAME JUDGE did it again. Gave him custody.
Just a couple of years ago we found out why. This judge is now under indcitment (or was a couple of years ago)for accepting bribes in child custody cases to favor whoever paid him. A couple of lawyers were in trouble in this same case. One was my wifes Ex & her former brother in laws lawyer in his divorce. These lawyers KNEW which judge to go to. How many children had their lives screwed up because of him?
So I think in MOST custody cases, especially those involving high conflict personalities go bad because of BAD judges. Maybe not corrupt but they aren’t bound by law to follow advocates advice. They can ignore reports that state how bad a parent one would be & just rule as they feel. Most of those rulings favor Mom. Sadly many time HCP & BPD Mom
Ron, I don’t know how true this is, but I’ve seen several claims that family law is largely populated with lawyers and judges from the bottom 20% of their law school classes. The claim is that they go into family law because standards are so mushy, and that makes it easy work for people who couldn’t cut it in more demanding areas of the profession.
My husband has faithfully paid child support for his two daughters AND his former stepson whom he never adopted– $850 for each kid for a total of $2550 a month. He was supposed to keep paying until each kid turned 22, got married, died, or became “self-sufficient”. Meanwhile, none of the kids speak to him. He hasn’t seen or talked to his daughters since Christmas 2004. In 2006, at ages 15 and 12, they actually sent letters to him, demanding that he let their mother’s current victim adopt them. In their letters, they addressed him by his first name and claimed that victim #3 (with whom ex has two more kids) is their “everyday daddy”. Crazy ex wife alienated her son from his bio-dad, yet got them back together when the boy was an adult and it suited her purposes.
I later found an Internet United Way PR article written about ex that basically claimed that my husband had left her penniless after their divorce… Never mind that he was paying her alimony, child support, and the house note on their marital home, which she got in the divorce. The house later went into foreclosure when he couldn’t maintain the payments any longer. When I met my husband, he was living on $600 a month.
My husband was a good dad to his kids and he loves them very much. I have watched the pain he’s gone through in the aftermath of divorcing their mother. Yet even with all that pain and estrangement, he’s assured me that it was worth it. He faced the difficult choice of leaving his ex and losing his kids, or going insane from all the craziness in their household.
I never intended to become an “evil stepmom”, but it infuriates me to see a good man like my husband get abused. Thankfully, the ex seems to have an aversion to going to court.
Reading stories like yours, knotheadusc, makes me so very angry. It’s unconscionable what some women and men do and worse yet that so many of them seem to get away with it. I hope when the wheel of karma comes back around it comes back hard on them.
Oddly enough, there are times when I think I’m driving the “karma bus”… She pretty much leaves us alone now. My husband’s daughters are 19 and 17 and ex promised that they would be getting adopted when they came of age. Frankly, if they’re anything like their mother, I kind of hope they do get adopted. I’d rather not have them try to re-engage later when they realize my husband might be ripe for more exploitation… We’ve already been down that road with former stepson. I can just see future grandchildren being used as bargaining chips. But I know my husband would like to make peace with them, so I’ve told him that if they come around, I’m booking a stay at a spa. 😉
May you be comforted knowing it doesn’t just come back around, but it comes back around many times over (life likes to keep teaching us the same ‘lesson’ until we finally learn it).
What we put out there in the universe, I believe, will come back to us multiplied…it’s just too bad we can’t always get front row seats when justice is finally applied.
Lucky you that the ex has an aversion to court. I was ready to celebrate this past December when the only legal expenses we had were paid to a Parenting Time Expediter.
Don’t think I don’t realize how lucky we are! She has never engaged my husband in court… not even when they got divorced. She drew up the papers herself and he signed them because they were both broke. I think she doesn’t want to go to court because she’s paranoid and afraid that too much of her crap would come out and become public record. It’s a lot easier for her to spin her BS to the people gullible enough to believe her and isolate anyone who questions her or challenges her versions of events. Besides, my husband is extremely credible and very nice. People tend to prefer him over her.
I have never met her in person, even though she tried to coerce me into spending Christmas with her back in 2004. I have read her emails, though, and talked to people who have known her since she was a teenager. She’s certifiable. One thing that worked in our favor is that she’s under the impression that I’m a b*tch, rather than just assertive. She doesn’t know me well enough to know my weaknesses and she’s a coward, so she gives us a wide berth.
I’m not in the situation, but I do know a story of a young man who paid $thousands to get to visit his own son, and now the &*($ is living in his house, still collects $900 a month from him, and tells him he can call to get the court to keep him from having to pay. You’d think SOMEONE would get some brains…she’s living in HIS HOUSE. They are TOGETHER. Yet, she’s scamming him for all that money.
Oh, the best part, child #2 is already on it’s way. Marriage? Vasectomy?
The thing that really sucks…he grew up watching his mother treat his father the exact same way…so he doesn’t even probably know that there is another way to live.
Men: I cannot emphasize this enough. I mean none of you any insult, but for God Sakes, please do not let your d*&! make your decisions for you…b/c this is the end result. (i.e. easy sex = emotionally Frigged up psycho who will make you pay for one or two nights of quick scr**ing for the rest of your life).
“The thing that really sucks…he grew up watching his mother treat his father the exact same way…so he doesn’t even probably know that there is another way to live. ”
That’s absolutely true… men who grew up with NPD/BPD mothers have very low expectations of women because they think that’s the way all women are. Took me a while myself to realize that isn’t true, and my own case was pretty mild compared to some that I know about. (Which I think largely explains your last paragraph… if you’re a boy growing up and you believe that that’s your future regardless, then you may as well have a little fun while you’re at it.)
PS – even sadder, he’s already admitted that the only reason he’s staying with “her” (I find even naming her the same sex as me insulting somehow) is so that he can see his child anytime, without any problems (read: years of court, thousands of dollars down the toilet and emotional suffering). Damn sad.
TheGirlInside,
I know exactely what you are talking about, I have a friend in the same type of situation. He doesn’t want to leave because of the fear that “it” would get more custody than “it” deserves. The problem is that “it” claims to be so physically sick “it” can’t care for “itsself”, let alone a 7 y/o. But yet “it’s” very capable of dishing out verbal and emotional abuse. Add in that “it’s” whole side of the family is personality disordered and you got the ultimate in living hell. The boy has been verbally abused, emotionally abused, guilt tripped, neglected, and most recently physically abused with a yard sick (not confirmed no evidence only the boy’s report) by many members of “it’s” side of the family. Even given all these probelems plus many more the father believes it’s better to stay because then he’s always there, except work, and can better protect the boy.
I too cannot call “it” a “she”,”it’s” not a mother never has been, only an egg donor. The only good news is that complications during birth caused “it” to be completely unable to have more kids.
Reading this makes me glad that my SO is in a system which has made some really clear efforts to move towards there been absolute transparence in what the minimum level of child support is and it can be calculated BEFORE a separation.
I can remember the SO being very suspicious as he looked at the number that the tax office provided him with, and he was only reassured when my accountant friend said it was acurate.
In addition, he can now put a claim back against her because her financial circumstances have changed since separation, and the tax office does the same calculation against her earnings.
Matrimonial property is split 50:50 and as soon as possible on separation.
Now the bad stuff: Eldest is the scapegoat and is desparate to go to an 80:20 or 90:10 custodial situation with her father, and everyone is acting like a 14 year old is an unrelible witness of her mother’s actions and behaviour. SO is a strict parent. His daughter is expected to do more and gets less freedom with him – but she knows when he says something it will be followed through on – that his word is his promise. The burden of proof is completely screwed up here.
I am trying to avoid being hopeful but just recently STBX has shown her true behaviour in front of church elders and in front of some neighbours and friends of the SO, so just perhaps they will speak out and the family courts will listen to their affidavits
Dr. T – I know that you said that group of second wives is private. Is it invite only? My husband and I deal with this stuff all the time – being drug through court, unfairly high child support ($1500 a month for 2 kids he has 40% of the time), having to have a PTE, constant harassment and false allegations. How does someone join or is it not open to more members?
Great Subject Dr. T. Also, thanks for sharing SunshineFlGirl,
… I divorced my wife of 18 years (suspected NPD/BPD+ will not seek treatment) after consulting three professionals (including Dr. T) and have two wonderful children.
Here in West Michigan (Ottawa County) being male, never any abuse, got handed about a $1500 child support and another $900 spousal support (5 years) and did not even get any physical custody. Just 35% parenting time. After a year the Ex. still does not work full-time (part-time at minimum wage) she has a 4-year college degree, makes new demands, demand money from her parents and well…… displays all the typical traits so eloquently communicated by Dr. T.
As for my terms of the divorce I initiated, I was told to take the deal from my attorney (very good and reputable), because if we claimed mental illness, I would have been “on-the-hook” for her financially for the rest of her life or mine! In Michigan, the laws are so bent against fathers, I was told that I would or will have to claim and prove she is beating them to death to get custody of them.
I know our States and Nations tax and healthcare structure needs an enhancement, but I can tell you as a father who has faithfully provided for his family for almost 20 years (no should would not work while we had kids in school), that Michigan and The U.S. needs a complete Family Court Overhaul!
My suggestion? 50/50 everything unless there is actual abuse (physical and add emotional/mental abuse too).
Not to be considered a
Looks like this online group would be a fascinating read. Based on the excerpts provided, these women sound like mature, reasonable, sensible people. That kind of forum would be of great value outside of itself, since it shows that women as well as men see the injustice and unfairness of the current divorce system in the U.S. I wonder if there is a way to further publicize these points of view (aside from this website, of course) without compromising the participants’ confidentiality or otherwise undermining the effectiveness and purpose of that group.
Thank you Dr. T for this post.
I totally feel the pain of having a partner with a BPD ex-wife. We do everything we can to minimize the terror campaign that she seems to never tire of.
We have assumed over 100K of debt from her ‘lifestyle’. This debt excludes the legal fees that we continue accrue.
She uses their children shamelessly. Each week we get the children back in our care, we wonder what deprogramming we’ll have to face. Some of the things she tells them are outrageous. And they are so young & impressionable that they believe her.
The exwife has been told by children’s therapist, family therapist, lawyers (of which she has had many), social workers and friends to stop including the children. She refuses. It sickens me.
The only hope I have is that as they grow up they realize that their biggest predator is their mother. Sad as this is it will only be self-preservation on their part.
What confuses me most, however, is how can she maintain this obsession with my partner? It’s been years since they divorced. He’s moved on. She’s moved on. Why is she so obsessed?
Marigold:
The only response I have to to say that you are showing those children the difference between a toxic person / relationship (assuming your Hs AXW is getting into relationships) and a healthy, loving one.
As long as you are consistent and, uh, tireless, in your truth telling, staying above the fray, and continuing to show them that discipline = love, whereas lack of discipline = apathy, they will learn the difference over time.
My AXH doesn’t even encourage my little girl to take care of common hygiene when she’s with him (like brushing her hair and teeth, or washing her hands after using the toilet – non-negotiables in most households!)…so she fights me on it every day, especially after weekends with him. I just keep telling her that I’m doing this because I care about her health.
Showing children a healthy, loving, giving and compassionate relationship is, IMO is one of the most valuable things we can do for them.
Simple…it is their lifeblood. They are similar to leeches and get all forms of energy and protein from feasting as often as possible on former victim(s).
Been over a year for me since divorced and little has slowed down despite visits from police and children’s aid for her to knock things off. I’m getting depressed because see no end in sight, especially after what I have learned here and from other therapists….
Causing havoc in my life and often using the children as pawns to do it gives her the energy she needs to survive above all else…
Simple…it is their lifeblood. They are similar to leeches and get all forms of energy and protein from feasting as often as possible on former victim(s).
Been over a year for me since divorced and little has slowed down despite visits from police and children’s aid for her to knock things off. I’m getting depressed because see no end in sight, especially after what I have learned here and from other therapists….
Causing havoc in my life and often using the children as pawns to do it gives her the energy she needs to survive above all else…
I am fortunate that my fiance’s youngest just turned 18 and graduated early, so the money part is behind us. But what I found most frustrating is that you almost have to go full scale war and take a second out on the house for every little thing if you need to go to court.
Example, the PCB (pscyho crazy bitch)in one of her losing control outbursts, made her 17 yo the target, since she couldnt get to my fiance. This poor kid was just torned apart and made the decision he wanted to live with Dad. Not being legal experts we tried to navigate the courts and file paperwork pro se, thinking that the age of the child, would factor heavily in the decision and it would be a done deal. Not so, she hired an attorney and $5,000 and one month later the child was told they had to continue the 50/50 shared custody, after all it was only just six months. Fiance was warned/threatened by her attorney that he would asked for continuance of the case so that it would go past the 18th birthday and rack up the attorney fees, that he would petition the court for him to pay. How is that right and just?
So here we are fortunate that now the child has graduated and is 18, so no more child support. But with the loss of that control, choke chain, has PCB acting out in other ways, stalking and terrorizing me. I just dont get how these people function and keep jobs.
Dr T, if I may…
I thought Shrink4men readers might appreciate this blog, Free Range Kids: http://freerangekids.wordpress.com/
It is written by author Lenore Skenazy, and looks at how kids these days are over-protected from all kinds of ills that adults imagine could befall them while they go about their everyday activities. I thought this was relevent as it touches on the subject of how ridiculous it is that men are often seen to be predators who can’t be trusted to have close contact with children, or even to look after their own children properly. It reminded me a lot of Shrink4men as perhaps it could be said to be another part of a growing social movement seeking to “reclaim the night” from those who want to try to project their fears and prejudices onto us regular, thoughtful, considerate folks.